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You did it. You hamstered the Paladin tank.
drago
Member Posts: 190 Arc User
Let's be direct. You hamstered the Paladin tank.
The biggest difference between the Justicar and the other two tank loadouts (Sentinel/Vanguard) is that you can heal at the cost of being undeniably less tankiness. In theory I heal what I have less in tankiness. The Problem started with TIC. If I cannot bear enough, then self-healing is of no use to me, because I'm dead. But now you've taken the cake.
The Justicar loadout remains unchanged(!)
That being said. You have 500 heal magnitude Encounter at costs of 220 divinity without any shields and of course without crit-stacking like a real healer. The special Power gives you 200 heal magnitude, if you block. The special Power is not able to critically hit.
The new At-Will of Oathkeeper gives 500 heal magnitude at costs of 30 divinity with crit-stacking and optimized stats like a real healer. The heal is faster, a lot cheaper and higher than the 500 heal magnitude Encounter at costs of 220 divinity from the Justicar. The special Power not even worth mentioning in comparison. Not even considering that the tank has no possibility to regenerate like the oathkeeper divinity. In my tests the oathkeeper was the better tank only with the use of at-will. Is this a bad joke?
The Encounter now heals for 1000, with shield and optimized values. Now you don't have to be an Einstein in order to recognize that the self-healing of the Justicar no longer has any significance. Vanguard or Sentinel is now META. With the increased healing of healers, it no longer makes sense to take the weaker Paladin Tank with you.
If this goes live without making any changes to the Paladin tank, then I guess this is goodbye. I have no interest in playing a healer.
I ask for swift clarification. As it looks now, I see no sense to invest more time in a project that is dead for me. Thank you.
The biggest difference between the Justicar and the other two tank loadouts (Sentinel/Vanguard) is that you can heal at the cost of being undeniably less tankiness. In theory I heal what I have less in tankiness. The Problem started with TIC. If I cannot bear enough, then self-healing is of no use to me, because I'm dead. But now you've taken the cake.
The Justicar loadout remains unchanged(!)
That being said. You have 500 heal magnitude Encounter at costs of 220 divinity without any shields and of course without crit-stacking like a real healer. The special Power gives you 200 heal magnitude, if you block. The special Power is not able to critically hit.
The new At-Will of Oathkeeper gives 500 heal magnitude at costs of 30 divinity with crit-stacking and optimized stats like a real healer. The heal is faster, a lot cheaper and higher than the 500 heal magnitude Encounter at costs of 220 divinity from the Justicar. The special Power not even worth mentioning in comparison. Not even considering that the tank has no possibility to regenerate like the oathkeeper divinity. In my tests the oathkeeper was the better tank only with the use of at-will. Is this a bad joke?
The Encounter now heals for 1000, with shield and optimized values. Now you don't have to be an Einstein in order to recognize that the self-healing of the Justicar no longer has any significance. Vanguard or Sentinel is now META. With the increased healing of healers, it no longer makes sense to take the weaker Paladin Tank with you.
If this goes live without making any changes to the Paladin tank, then I guess this is goodbye. I have no interest in playing a healer.
I ask for swift clarification. As it looks now, I see no sense to invest more time in a project that is dead for me. Thank you.
1
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Comments
Maybe it's time to replace the Paladin Tank with a Paingiver loadout. It can't stay like this. Those who want to continue playing a tank should be given the opportunity to switch to the Sentinel or Vanguard.
Compare two 800k tanks, 120k power, 20% incoming heal:
Justicar - 800k
Sentinel - 880k ( Mighty Vitality )
The Justicar can heal itself with this constellation for 20k HP ( Special Power - Divine Palisade ). In fifteen seconds he will be able to afford three seconds. More is not sustainable. Two healings are possible per second if I interrupt the block and re-block it. However, I risk losing the 10% damage reduction and the block at the right moment. 2*3=6*20K=120K HP in 15s. More is possible, but only as an unsustainable burst. I sacrifice a Smite, Aggro or die a little later without divinity.
Furthermore the Justicar can heal itself with the daily power Heroism for 20% of the HP for the equivalent of 160K HP.
The Sentinel heals with Bloodletter at 500 Magnitude. Every 14.6s. I don't know if critical hits are transferred as healing and the skill of Combat Advantage benefits from it. If so, then the Skill Bloodletter is comparable with the 2*3=6*20K=120K HP in 15s ( Special Power - Divine Palisade ) from the Justicar.
Furthermore the Sentinel with Enduring Shout now has a 20% healing = 20% of 880k = 176K. Every 30s.
Furthermore the Sentinel can heal itself with the daily power Battle High for 35% of the HP for the equivalent of 308K HP.
All in all the life level is much higher and the Sentinel will benefit much more with the Insignia Boni that scale with the HP.
At the same time the block scales with the HP and it can block more.
The endurance regeneration of a Sentinel is higher.
Why play a Paladin tank now, which in theory can heal if it is worse than its counterpart.
With the high bosses it has been found that a lot of HP makes it easier to survive. The Sentinel has much more of that.
The Sentinel is now the better healer. The Sentinel deals better with burst damage and benefits more from a good healer while the Paladin is long dead.
It might be nice that everyone thinks the Paladin is great and that he is great and so on and so forth. But the numbers don't give that away. It's the final content that counts. And in order for the Paladin to survive it he has to invest a lot in his defense that he won't have a higher damage output than the Sentinel. The higher damage is almost only AoE damage anyway. I don't see any advantage in damage to single targets, and that's what really counts.
I am not at all enthusiastic about this development. In terms of numbers, the Sentinel will now be what I imagine the Paladin Tank to be. What is this?
We now need fundamental changes. The Justicar needs new and better ways to counter with higher bursts. Why the paladin tank does not have the highest self-healing capacity is beyond me. Why we can block with one less shield is also a mystery.
If this is the new way, then at least it makes it complete. Cut Bane's damage from 480 to 300. The damage advantage is gone. Give us more self-healing and burst protection in return. Or generally allow for a possibility as a secondary tank. If the Paladin could block for the group, it would be able to regenerate divinity without aggro and provide added value without aggro.
Ironically, the Sentinel can even trigger the healer boons while the Paladin tank will not.
Divine Touch is far too expensive and now even ridiculously useless compared to the new healing abilities.
*** Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) ***
Not that healing in a tank build had any use but I hope paladin tanks can even keep up with the other tanks next module.
Lower in hitpoints. Lower in selfheal. Not higher single target damage. Need 10k more stats. Lower durations of encounter. Lower in block. Harder to block. In lower content a Paladin overperformed maybe. But this is overkill. Play Oathkeeper or switch to sentinel.
Only left is more AoE damage. Cool.... Realize the heal got nerfed by your reduced incoming heal without compensate in higher magnitude.... If you did not used your heal you almost underperformed against a Sentinel in Mod18. If Sentinel had no Aggro issues. But even this is adressed in Mod19.
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
It's like comparing apples to oranges. Of course, almost everyone can improve within the bounds of their possibilities. Sentinel BIS > Justicar BIS.
I better get on preview and start playing the tankadin to see just how bad it's gonna be. I already have a hard time getting into groups on xbox with my stats capped. This sounds like I should abandon completely and start again on a new toon. Oh wait, my paladin has over 6000hrs invested in time, and way more money than I ever thought I'd into this free to play game(yes some of the coins can be offset to other toons, even a new tank if I go to fighter, or barby) but I'd have to either buy campaign buyout tokens to get all the boons again(and after mod 16 I feel the boons are worthless now), but I haven't played much near BiS with my cleric which is the only toon that doesn't have any boons.
I really don't see any justification for the continued nerfing of classes. If one is outperforming the others then bring the others up. I mean seriously, by the time mod 18 hit console I had just gotten my paladin to a fun state of play(where he was at the end of mod 15), and now this? Come on devs stop HAMSTER everyone over...
> Oh boy, another huge nerf to paladins, just what I wanted.
>
> I better get on preview and start playing the tankadin to see just how bad it's gonna be. I already have a hard time getting into groups on xbox with my stats capped. This sounds like I should abandon completely and start again on a new toon. Oh wait, my paladin has over 6000hrs invested in time, and way more money than I ever thought I'd into this free to play game(yes some of the coins can be offset to other toons, even a new tank if I go to fighter, or barby) but I'd have to either buy campaign buyout tokens to get all the boons again(and after mod 16 I feel the boons are worthless now), but I haven't played much near BiS with my cleric which is the only toon that doesn't have any boons.
>
> I really don't see any justification for the continued nerfing of classes. If one is outperforming the others then bring the others up. I mean seriously, by the time mod 18 hit console I had just gotten my paladin to a fun state of play(where he was at the end of mod 15), and now this? Come on devs stop <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> everyone over...
I feel the same.... about my cleric
I spent a lot of time on preview for mod 16, working out how they had changed the cleric from the two different buff roles that it was pre-mod 16, to what it is now.
I've worked hard on my healer build, I enjoy playing that role. I'm happy with my DPS build.
But right now.... I'm ready to quit, or switch completely to DPS, which would make me sad, as healing was my preference.
I have alts. But they are just there for time wasting. I don't really want to invest in them.
They broke my cleric healer
Co-Guild Leader
Ghost Templars L20
Alliance: Tyrs Paladium
Main: Cleric (Heals|DPS)
Alt: Warlock
1. Why do we have abilities that no one is supposed to use? Then it is high time to start here to increase the attractiveness.
2. I hate the attitude that everyone should play best like the other one. I hate it. There are attempts at variability and then you are rebuked for doing everything wrong.
3. you say yourself that you use the Pallisade. With it there is a 200 magnitude cure whether you like it or not. If all this is not worth talking about and is useless anyway, then I can demand without resistance that the 200 Magnitude be adapted to the new circumstances. What's all this fuss about?
I personally take advantage of my healing skills. Why the Justicar is being weakened without compensation, it's not clear to me. I don't think the Justicar is too strong, that you have to nerf it and buff the Sentinel. How you play is up to you. But surely as a Paladin I'm allowed to heal...
Now, to be more specific. In TIC I use Oath of Protection, mostly Smite, for Trash Bane and Sacred Weapon or situationally Absolution. In TOMM of course without Bane. Other justicars do that as well and it works with a pretty finished justicar.
1. Many DPS go into TIC much earlier although they do not have nearly the same equipment as the tank needs. The Justicar would be dead for a long time and there would be theater.
2. A sentinel with much more possibilities to boost its HP will have much more chances to survive a burst. Much earlier. With less equipment needed.
3. To stick to my example, I don't heal anything anymore. Except with heroism. But the daily power of the Sentinel is stronger in that area too. With the Sentinel, almost everything that is BIS is a cure.
4. Theoretically, and this is apparently not clear to many here, the Justicar has the strongest healing in the game. Shield of Faith together with Sheltering Light heals all allies for 50% of the healing the Justicar receives. This makes a big impression even in TOMM in some phases. But without heroism the Justicar is dead in these phases. So practically useless. Even if it worked. The game only knows phase shields, 100% or dead. And what the Justicar can offer is useless in this case.
5. That being said. I'm not saying the Justicar doesn't get groups anymore. But if the Sentinel offers himself, the Justicar is asked if he can play an Oathkeeper. Maybe it's even possible with just one tank. I can only caution against that. If the tanks are no longer needed as before, this will eliminate the shortage in the short term. Also Oathkeepers are more available, when more Justicars have to change their tanks. But in the medium term many will leave the game because they are no longer needed or because they have to play something they don't want to play.
Shield of Faith was strengthened by both incoming/outgoing heal. 100,000 healings were strengthened by theoretically 60% incoming healing = 160,000 + 20% outgoing healing = 192,000. This is double hit. The nerf is incredible. I haven't heard of any damage ability that's just been reduced from 500 magnitude to 300 magnitude.
The Sentinel has Encounter from my example in the amount of 176K HP healing. 500 magnitude from the justicer is 40,000. For 220 divinity. This is not comparable at all and not at all up-to-date. It has nothing to do with a Paladin.
A Paladin should support the group. What else does he do in the final content. He only fights for his own survival. The tiny cure is no longer possible. I understand why no one uses it anymore. It's not possible. But it shouldn't be like this.
In the lower range the Justicar can heal much more. There's no three-phase shield, 100%, dead. The Justicar heals on its own. And suddenly the paladin isn't a real paladin anymore. That's cheating the customer. A DPS just always does harm. Nobody's asking you to play anything else.
Also the bigger possible damage output is ridiculous now. I'm just busy running away from something that kills instantly. When am I supposed to give it a good slap. A DPS doesn't have anything like the loss of a tank that blocks the wrong way. If a sentinel doesn't block properly, it's not necessarily dead. That means more HP/block/regen. But a Paladin can be on the ground after only 1 hit. And if he is too careful, his stamina is quickly gone.
The fact that only a few skills are used and presupposed shows how one-sided the game has become. These are alarm signals that something needs to be changed. To leave the skills to call the character Paladin, but to make them so bad that nobody uses them anymore. Well then. Every lore has been abandoned here.
20 years ago, Baldur's Gate is not how I remember it. It wasn't the barbarian then........ well.
I'd love to do it Killing Floor 2 style where I literally smash teammate faces in with my axe and they suddenly gain health instead of losing health.
However, I can't seem to find the possibility to spec a Barbarian healer, so maybe you could give me some tips on how to start?
Further increased with Mighty Vitality
i think that to do something like this is hard, and for balancing you need to rework the classes, by type (dps, tank, healer) all togheter, now we had a change to healer (every healer class), nex will be the tank o dps to be reworked a little.
a lot of people lament the teir class is not doing what they would like to do, but pre mod 16 no one ever wanted a GF tank, and would laugh at a GWF tank, (or an OP healer), i'm not saing that this should not be fixed, but give them time, now the healer had the mod disparity between them, so they get reworked first, if this put them in a near equally usefulness then we will probably see only minor change on how they work (like the dps adjustment on mod 19) and the next one would be the tank.
if it would not work.... then again rework form the type with more of a gap.
TL;DR : i see your point, but this was a rework for healer build not tank or hybrid build, give them time and maybe you will be heard
I don't want to be the strongest tank at all. It would be great if tanks could complement each other. I even expect the barbarian to be the strongest of the basic HP. I expect a warrior paired with good healers to be the most resilient with professional damage reduction. But I expect a paladin with only one healer to be the most resilient because of his own abilities.
If this happens via an aura, then I have nothing against it. In a 10 player trial it is ridiculous that a Paladin might not be the best option as a supplement, even if he is not the main tank. How can it be that the 7th DPS is more effective then. Sorry, we can argue about that forever, but that's something you won't find in almost any other game.
There is no added value, of course the lack of meaningful auras is also responsible for that.
A Paladin is bad for the group character. It shouldn't even be a question of being desirable with 10 men. And that for both loadouts.
And if a loadout doesn't quite fit, then switching to a DPS is something completely different than switching to a healer. It's just not for everyone.
if we want to enter a run, or a training, for something high level, we need too many stat at cap (an critical avoidance with 10k over cap) and a lot of HP (ppl kept asking for 800k HP and 130k power for IC, and kept saing the if you have less you are useless (at least in my guild/alliance)) and do a lot of damage to keep aggro : a new player can't do this.
you need high enchantment, high companion, high runestone, high insignias, good artifacts to have the 'minimal stat' required for high content, in attack and defense; where dps can keep low enchantment in defense and have a palaheal to keep them alive.
this is the same thing as the healer : a healer needed all healing companion high to be a good healer, now the gap between end gamer and new player got reduced, i think the same thing will happen for tank, and in the process we can get some adjustment.
i too want more meanigful auras and encounter to help me keep aggro and the sirvivability of my party beacuse that is why i choose the paladin.
this is my only hope, because i choose the paladin to be a tank, a wall that defend my allies, a support that help them stayng alive, now i have to try to survive while keeping the boss busy while the dps kill him.
the time will prove me wrong or right.
First thing to address, pally doesn't have to stack 10k more crit avoid, they have a base value of +10k crit avoid thanks to being a divinity user: when you're better as managing your divinity you can even save yourself a few thousand stat allocations to crit avoid to open up other options, options fighter and barbarian don't have.
Now then: Someone mentioned about needing 800k hp and 130k power for IC, completely untrue. There is already a video out of a 4--K hp tank tanking IC. I've personally brought in a 580k hp barbarian Tank into IC during a training run, what happened?: Well, dps all died during second boss and myself and the barbarian duo'ed the second boss. In the end, it ended in failure, but that was due to 4 new players with it being a training run with no stat requirements. So, if mod 18's "worst" tank can do it at 580k hp, so can a pally!
Threat management: Firstly, I don't like hard taunts, but pally has the most chances to hard taunt if they're failing, VoE + smite gives you 4 chances total, if I remember the divinity amount correctly and smite sets you to 10% over highest current threat, so you shouldn't be losing it if managed properly. Since IC doesn't require the feat for pallys to have divine pallisade set you to stamina is 75% of your max hp, you can use the other feat to create more aggro with your tab up. If you can gain confidence not to set smite, you can also avoid the class feat, it really helps with keeping aggro, you can set the aura that has you do 25 magnitude hit + threat every time your party members are hit, can work wonders in ToMM during heatwave. Also, make sure you have focused retaliation set, if you're going to be slapped for 500k-3m depending on content, always nice to slap back with half the damage, it creates so much threat that during duo tanking in tomm you can accidentally steal back aggro from your partner tank.
The differences:
- Absolution: 20% damage reduction
- Divine Palisade: Block is 75% of HP, group 10% damage reduction and, less importantly, group heal over time
- Shield of Faith: Group damage reduction, group incoming heal and with feat, group heal effect
- A single target taunt that has NO COOLDOWN (instead limited by your divinity). This is particularly useful in Zariel's Challenge.
Your typical load out for bosses in TIC/ToMM/ZC will be Absolution, Smite and Binding Oath. There may be situations where you might slot something different or swap in temporarily, but never Divine Touch.
GF only need to tab, but we can tap tab and immediately hit shift. Once you get used to it, it's not that bad at all and we get extra effects for the effort.
with tab you start divine champion, by pressing shift in divine champion you use divine palisade.
both can be slightly changed by the last feat.