Adjust Rusted Iron Leggings for the Incoming heal changes

theraxin · May 2020

I don't think it's needs overexplaining but if someone has not checked preview:

Tacticals now only giving +2% on Rank 15
Legendary comps only give up to +3%
The character boon bonus has been halved to +0.5%x4 stack
Even the guild boon has been reduced to 8%

Only the Rusted Iron Leggings stayed at -25%, which decimated any build that tried and spent millions to compensate for it.

liadan1984 · May 2020

Yes! Even if it's just down to 15%, although, to be fair, all of our hits have been huge, it should go down to 10%, or perhaps lower to even it all out.

kythelion · May 2020

The -25% was always meant to be a choice that hurt. You take more but deal more. The overabundance of ICH made that an easy thing to compensate. Now, that choice will be what it was intended to be: do you wear them and risk dying or do you not?

Unknown · May 2020

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kythelion · May 2020

Easy solution: don't wear them.

thefabricant · May 2020

The Rusted Iron Leggings are fine where they are right now. It is now a meaningful choice to make, just like it was before at -50%.

xenocide · May 2020

I just hope the players that insist on wearing them, and dying, can see what is happening.

But they will probably just think they have a weak healer in their party

Unknown · May 2020

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liadan1984 · May 2020

Everyone that I know that wears them has worked to increase their ICH back up to either 0, or above. On live, you can wear the rusted iron leggings and still have positive ICH. That's going to be difficult to do on preview.
So... off they go to farm new boots.

lardeson · May 2020

If they are going to adjust all sources of ICH and OGH, it only makes sense for them to adjust the boots too

Unknown · May 2020

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vorphied · May 2020

animewatcha#6533 said:
IIt is as simple as if anyone is wearing the boots, either they get the boot from the group or healer leaves..

Highly doubt that will be necessary. Incoming Heal can be ignored in ToMM currently if you build sufficient HP, wear a Barkshield, and know the mechanics enough not to take unnecessary damage. It's very possible that this trial will prove similar.

We should wait and see whether or not the incoming heal debuff on the boots and/or the parameters of the trial are adjusted. I wore them on Preview for Zariel practice and had no issue staying alive up until we took a break at phase 2 except when outright mistakes were made. Standard, unavoidable damage was easily recoverable as long as mitigation and healing were executed correctly and the group was in position.

Edit: I forgot to mention non-trial content because no one will care about a difference in incoming healing outside of the most difficult content in the game. Nothing else is as close to healing-intensive.

kythelion · May 2020

The Rusted Iron Leggings are the only of piece of equippable gear in the game that give more than 3% of buff (iirc). That extra 2% increase is almost like wearing an entire extra piece of gear and needs to be offset by a penalty to balance that out, and that penalty has to be big enough to be a choice. If the penalty doesn't make you stop and think is it worth it to equip this then it hasn't done its job. ICH is a good choice because it penalizes you for being sloppy, thereby theoretically encouraging players to learn good playstyles. If you wear them and are constantly taking enough damage to die, then you will end up doing less damage and you should farm other boots. If you know/can perform mechanics adequately you will stay alive and thereby benefit from the extra bonus. I know it's a strange concept to NWO, but it's perfectly acceptable for there to be a penalty to offset a particularly large buff to maintain balance.

emese · May 2020

The question is not if they are fine now but more that the healing was reworked and most means that counteract the -25% are severely reduced in mode 19. Healers will not be able keep up with a -25% incoming healing and this will pose a real problem. It is OK to have the minus incoming healing but should be adjusted to reflect the changes that will be introduced. It will be not a viable choice for anyone at -25%.

kythelion · May 2020

Yes, the means to counteract it *will* be less, and that is exactly the point. Currently, the penalty is 0. ICH can still be soared to high positive values (I've personally seen as high as +18%) while wearing the leggings. There is almost double the buff for no penalty. That's why the -25% needs to actually stay in M19. Even with a full suite of Tacs and the guild boon, you'll still be at a marginal penalty. There will *actually* be a choice to make as far as wearing the leggings is concerned and the penalty will *actually* be doing what it's supposed to.

So, even with a -25% ICH, if a player mitigates responsibly with Tacs and such they will still have, what, a 10% penalty? Less if they choose to use the Ion stone also. That will only hurt if you don't get your feet out of the red. If you do, then it is quite manageable. Which is the what the -ICH is supposed to do. Make you think about how you play, what content you're going to do, and are they worth wearing.

I'd also like to point out that healing isn't going to be in tooo much of a worse place than it is now as far as actual heal numbers are concerned, if at all. The huge increases to magnitude make up for the decreases to OGH and ICH. The targeting might be a problem and people may have to learn to move in combat differently, but that's nothing to do with the actual numbers.

rikitaki · May 2020

kythelion#3210 said:
Yes, the means to counteract it *will* be less, and that is exactly the point. Currently, the penalty is 0. ICH can still be soared to high positive values (I've personally seen as high as +18%) while wearing the leggings. There is almost double the buff for no penalty.

What do you mean there is no penalty? Those high positive incoming healing numbers are achieved by companion bonuses... those things that other people use to gain Power. There the trade-off for each 10% incoming healing varies between 4-10k Power. That is not "nothing". That is a lot. And the new mod will shift this to insane numbers.

You are stripping barbs and fighters off one of the rare occasions how to turn a defence companion slot into damage.

kythelion · May 2020

Tacticals alone are pretty much sufficient to completely negate the penalty on live. Those have no affect to your offensive capabilities. Some people use the guild boon to go positive, again no affect to your offensive capabilities.The only ICH companion a dps would use also pairs with power and goes in a def slot, so no loss there either really. So, yeah, penalty is 0 on live. Easily. With relatively little to no sacrifice even. My half-HAMSTER alts can wear the boots with no -ICH.

Which is why we're saying the -25% should stand in M19. You would actually have to work to mitigate that, and would still have to choose between having almost double the bonus of other gear with a small -ICH or wearing something else with a slightly smaller bonus but no ICH hit. It's called balance.

rikitaki · May 2020

Using guild boon has no penalty? You choose between incoming healing/defense, whatever.

There is a difference between claiming "I do not care what the trade-off is" and "there is no trade-off". You always choose one over another. You choose, you trade. Simple as that.

arazith07 · May 2020

Choices need to have meaning behind them, if you can negate the ICH penalty completely with just Tacticals which is by far BiS for utility slots, like you can now, it's not really a choice. If you require more though, it then becomes more of a choice, with actual compensation required to either overcome the negative, or play in a way that the negative doesn't really hinder you (like being on point in avoiding damage).

Unknown · May 2020

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arazith07 · May 2020

Darks are useless, even more useless as stat caps climb. Companion influence adds so little to your stat totals, you won't even see a notable difference. Using Tacticals over Darks is not a meaningful choice, you will see more use out of tacticals, there is practically no situation where someone would want to use Darks. Where if someone had to choose between more damage or more survivability in a piece of gear, not everyone will flock to one or the other...there is a choice and it makes more items useful. However if you are able to completely negate the negative, we are back to a situation where you only have one BiS equipment for dps.

When choices are being discussed, it is in the light of BiS or min/maxing, in actual meaningful choices. Not purposely trying to nerf yourself. So many people are clamoring for more choices in building one character so everything isn't cookie cutter. This shouldn't stop at feats and powers, this should include all equipment, boons etc. I think Darks and other utility enchants should be buffed to the usefulness of Tacticals, I think there should be more viable gear equip bonuses etc. One way of achieving that is having gear with penalties that not everyone would accept taking, in exchange for some benefit, and other more 'safe' gear with a bit less benefit, bringing in a factor of risk vs reward.

vorphied · May 2020

arazith07 said:
Darks are useless, even more useless as stat caps climb. Companion influence adds so little to your stat totals, you won't even see a notable difference. Using Tacticals over Darks is not a meaningful choice, you will see more use out of tacticals, there is practically no situation where someone would want to use Darks.

This isn't universally true. There are plenty of scenarios in gearing up where Darks can make the difference between meeting stat caps with the desired loadout and falling just short.

Some players may not be concerned about missing 1k of a stat, but it's not an exaggeration to say that 1k Defense, for example, can make the difference between dying to a massive hit in ToMM or at Zariel, especially if shielding isn't prepared.

On live, Darks allow me to roll with exactly the companion bonuses and BiS equipment, Radiants, and insignia I want while giving enough wriggle room to make small adjustments without shuffling multiple pieces and companion bonus slots. Tacticals are useless to me because I avoid unnecessary damage and maintain enough HP not to rely 100% on critical shielding. Hence I'll take +~1k or whatever it was to most of my stats over trying to remedy an incoming healing penalty that isn't hurting me or changing the way my healers have to play.

As to M19, we'll see. As with many things, too early to tell.

Unknown · May 2020

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tom · May 2020

hitchslapped said:
you keep saying 'meaningful choices', but you keep deliberately ignoring that meaningful to one player, and meaningful to another, aren't the same thing, and that meaningful choices *do* exist, even if they're not severe enough for your personal preference - as has been pointed out more than once. when i'm saying that if you want a minus to incoming healing, you can set yourself up that way, what i'm saying is that perhaps you should, y'know, stop arguing for other players to get screwed over just to suit your personal preferences of how severe disadvantages should be, because if you want to have gear that has a non-balanceable negative, you can just rp that, instead of trying to push it onto everyone else who doesn't want it, because they can't just rp a non-balanceable negative away.

as for darks... we have 5 utility slots. an r15 dark grants 6% companion influence. that's 30% total. for some stats, that can be a little over 5k. the choice between darks and tacticals, especially going into m19 with statcaps rising to 90k, is a meaningful choice, for some players it's the difference between hitting a cap and being 5k below it, which isn't an insignificant thing. likewise even for more developed chars, darks can still be the difference between hitting caps and not hitting them, or hitting caps but having to choose companions they'd rather not be using, or insignia they'd rather not be using, or runestones they'd rather not be using, etc. every piece of gear/enchant/runestone/artifact in the game, involves choices. also, if there's practically no situation people would want to use darks in... how come people at all sorts of levels of development, keep involving them in their builds? kinda seems like there's plenty of situations people want to use them in.

be less selfish in your approach to things, dude, and don't try to tell other people what context they can and can't discuss things in.

and you keep deliberately ingoring the fact that for most players using the boots on live does not involve a choice. Not everyone wants to have it the easy way.

rikitaki · May 2020

tom#6998 said:

and you keep deliberately ingoring the fact that for most players using the boots on live does not involve a choice. Not everyone wants to have it the easy way.

The strange thing is that people here do not fight against players with 40+% incoming healing. They fight against people having positive IH with boots.

If you don't like that tacticals add incoming healing, ok. But that has nothing to do with balancing the boots.

thefabricant · May 2020

The strange thing here is that people consider it mandatory for incoming healing to be non negative in the first place. If someone wants a greater than average boost to one stat, then they should be willing to take a penalty (even one that they potentially cannot mitigate) to another.

micky1p00 · May 2020

What I don't understand is why 0 has any special significance. Surviving any healing check depends on the damage during it, the players defensive stats and ability to avoid damage, and the healer, including their divinity management and ofc stats, like power, crit, outgoing healing, and so on.

Choosing 0 has no special meaning in that context, it can be 10, or -10, or perhaps lucky 13.

If you are dying with 0, then 0 is not enough, if you are not dying with -25% then you are not dying with -25%.

originalsin · May 2020

kythelion#3210 said:
The Rusted Iron Leggings are the only of piece of equippable gear in the game that give more than 3% of buff (iirc). That extra 2% increase is almost like wearing an entire extra piece of gear and needs to be offset by a penalty to balance that out, and that penalty has to be big enough to be a choice. If the penalty doesn't make you stop and think is it worth it to equip this then it hasn't done its job. ICH is a good choice because it penalizes you for being sloppy, thereby theoretically encouraging players to learn good playstyles. If you wear them and are constantly taking enough damage to die, then you will end up doing less damage and you should farm other boots. If you know/can perform mechanics adequately you will stay alive and thereby benefit from the extra bonus. I know it's a strange concept to NWO, but it's perfectly acceptable for there to be a penalty to offset a particularly large buff to maintain balance.

We’re acting as if this is just a penalty to the person choosing to wear the boots. The healer works harder, uses more divinity and less of the healer’s attention and divinity is available for everyone else. Until we can have an ignore list that stops your from queueing with people, randoms are going to be hell.

Unknown · May 2020

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vcttethias · May 2020

This was the only viable build on live for dps - I'm glad they got nerfed. They were OP and too easily obtainable. The previous choices for DPS, boots of the willed, enduring boots, heels of fury, all required lots of farming. Farming bags in Avernus was not the same level of involvement or difficulty.

tom · May 2020

hitchslapped said:

tom#6998 said:

and you keep deliberately ingoring the fact that for most players using the boots on live does not involve a choice. Not everyone wants to have it the easy way.
but it does involve a choice, tom. you're pretending it doesn't for the sake of convenience to you. no one's forced to use the boots. people can choose to use, or not use, the boots, or even to use them in one piece of content but not in another. it happens. ( go look at people's builds on live. you will see boots that are not the leggings, in use. )

and tbh like i said, if you want it harder, choose to make it so yourself. don't force that on others.

you are the one asking for the boots to change. If you want to make it easier for yourself just dont wear them. The argument that ppl on live dont use the boots is irrelevant, because guess what, there will still be people using the boots after the changes.

Adjust Rusted Iron Leggings for the Incoming heal changes

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