Moving CR and CODG back to the random queues was a terrible idea

feanor70118 · January 2020

The random queues are full of relatively inexperienced players looking to get their daily AD.
Putting content with unique high learning curve mechanics in their way defeats the point of those queues, which is to make it possible for everyone to queue publicly and get their AD with a minimum of frustration and wasted effort.
Just undo it.
It was a bad idea the first time. It's still a bad idea.

tassedethe13 · January 2020

Can't wait for TOMM to be in the random trial queue !

elsunga · January 2020

Tried to play with people outside my social bubble and just experienced 25+ healer who was unable to heal 2/3 LoMM...

namelesshero347 · January 2020

On the positive side, there are plenty of ToMM-geared players to do the carrying.

rikitaki · January 2020

The problem is within the schizophrenic nature of the system. Random queues were designed to help you fill a party when trying to run some specific content. As specific content now rewards you mostly with just experience, it is a rare choice now.

The only reasonable reward from 90% of game is just rAD - that means random queues are the most tempting pick for anyone that is not stuck in TONG. And why bother to learn anything before queuing in? Especially with 10 man team you would expect that other can carry you... Well, unfortunately, if 8 out of 10 pugged people think this way, the result is impressive. My firs CoDG through randoms took a lot of time, because everyone just had to shoot the skull in the wrong direction - preferably more than once. And then comes the cube that is not supposed to be killed in the middle of the lift! But we managed. Not my doing though - I spent most of the time crushing to desktop...

The system encourages people to pass the responsibility to other members of team. There are no consequences for messing up other people's day, so that is why random queues look, how they look.

Now, CR... CR was always in the category I ignored - "experienced with scrolls". So I have never been there. I am tempted to enqueue for dungeons just to see the world from the perspective of an inexperienced, clueless guy that messes up others' effort. Might be fun. And there are no consequences...

shugensha · January 2020

So, yesterday i played CR with a pug group and from the 5 only 3 of the original group lasted to the final boss. Even tho we learned the mechanics of the sword and the fire orbs, we couldn't beat it... cuz we bug it like 4 times lol. The last time we bug it was after 3hs of playing and the sword ended up inside. Tho it was frustrating, i kinda make friends with them and will try again today.

Codg is tricky, theres more ppl leaving than trying to do it even before it starts. At least 80% of the times i did it i complete it cuz the team knew what to do or they actually readed when we told what was needed to do. The other 20% its ppl just leaving in jello fight.

Yesterday i found out i can heal LoMM (warlock) so the only problem i could find there is someone that doesn't help me with mimics.

In the end, i don't blame the devs for adding them to the Qs, but the ppl that likes to complain instead of trying to complete
them even tho they have all the means to find an experienced team to do it or just finding a team willing to learn how to play it.
And trust me, there is more ppl willing to learn how to play than rage quiters.

I really hope you can either find an experienced team or at least a team that want to learn.

The Lovely Red.

originalsin · January 2020

Codg is fine, the only problem is that there are too many inexperienced players in the game, and just a few of them can fail the run because they kill the skulls and jellos. Language barriers are an issue here.

CR is a pain if you either don’t have a decent paladin healer or don’t have great dps. There’s a lot of mechanics at Strahd and accidents can happen when they overlap. The longer the fight goes on, the more likely these accidents happen and it just goes down hill from there. Paladin’s shield is really powerful here, without it people needs to have large HP pools to survive mistakes. It’s doable but people need to actually stick together and have defensive stats.

LoMM mainly fails at the first boss when the damage isn’t enough, random dps can be surprisingly bad at the mimics.

There is nothing people need to gear up from CR or LoMM that can’t be gotten anywhere else. They should have the minimum item level for public queues raised and let private queues reduce the minimum item level by more than 1k.

shugensha · January 2020

CR is not that hard once you get mechanics of the orbs, Xs and the sword, but at the same time the problem comes with them.
1) If you are caught by strahd while the orbs spawn, sometimes its easier to let that person die rather than risk all the team.
2) Even tho you can hear when the Xs will appear, sometimes you are so focused hitting, healing or tanking that you won't see them comming.
3) Most ppl just rush to the sword and get killed when strahd lands, instead of waiting and then getting it. That leads to the one with sword duty to never charge it for the final part. You need to rise it after like 2 seconds after he says "Now, rise me to the sky!". We found out that with tons of heals and mitigation, at least the tank can survive the fail rise lol.

Imo, CR its patience like any other dung, but a little more. Its only try and error. So if you can make a team that WANTS to beat it, you will beat it and learn how to beat it more easily everytime. Im hopping tonight we will succeed ^^

About Codg, its true, the language barrier its hard. And even tho you can kick them out, theres a big chance that the next one will just leave as soon as he/she enters.
Still, Codg its funnier than Tiamat.

tom · January 2020

Both CR and CoDG are ALOT easier then when they were introduced, its more then ok for them to be in the random que

rjc9000 · January 2020

tom#6998 said:
Both CR and CoDG are ALOT easier then when they were introduced, its more then ok for them to be in the random que

CR is still as hard due to its most difficult bosses surviving the transition from Mod 16:

unskippable cutscenes with long monologues.

feanor70118 · January 2020

Oh, and also LOMM shouldn't be in the random queue either. Newer players can't hold up their part of a party. The end. Make a separate queue for dungeons from CODG on instead of torturing players with the RNG and wasting people's time.

gonzakotwi · January 2020

feanor70118 said:
Oh, and also LOMM shouldn't be in the random queue either. Newer players can't hold up their part of a party. The end. Make a separate queue for dungeons from CODG on instead of torturing players with the RNG and wasting people's time.

Newer players have rdq and skirmish to do ad, plus the ad you get from new he from avernus. It is fine as it is

namelesshero347 · January 2020

feanor70118 said:
Oh, and also LOMM shouldn't be in the random queue either. Newer players can't hold up their part of a party. The end. Make a separate queue for dungeons from CODG on instead of torturing players with the RNG and wasting people's time.

LoMM used to be the only dungeon in REQ. That did not stop newer players coming in once they hit the iLvl requirement which wasn't hard to do.

b4t1b4t · January 2020

The real issue is not the dungeons being placed in a random and really it is not the random queue anyways. The real issue is where the player decides he or she does not care about reading a guide or at least watching a simple video to understand what is going to happen with inside of this queue. If many more would take time out to do this then less people would fail to mechancs. It would also help if the devs would lock queues behind mini stats required to over come the dungeon but we get item level that really means nothing.

Unknown · January 2020

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airphoenix78 · January 2020

We used to have an advance que for the harder dungeons like CR ,CODG, and LOMM it would be nice to be able to have those again so the players that are able to run the harder ques. Sorry I was wrong advance was for other dungeons and Epic was for the harder ones.

I know not everyone has the same knowledge about the mechanics of the dungeons or the necessary powers and defense for some of these. They may have the IL to get into the que but to be able to survive is different.

I know as a player it is frustrating to see people try and not be able to succeed in these. It turns players against each other instead of building a community.

I ran a random yesterday it was LOMM and the person had the IL, but did not have the ability to kill the mimics because of not enough power and we ended up with alot of golems and they did not know not to stand on the cocoons.

It can be very frustrating as player who has ran it before and a player who does not understand or have the skills to run these.

feanor70118 · January 2020

gonzakotwi said:

feanor70118 said:
Oh, and also LOMM shouldn't be in the random queue either. Newer players can't hold up their part of a party. The end. Make a separate queue for dungeons from CODG on instead of torturing players with the RNG and wasting people's time.
Newer players have rdq and skirmish to do ad, plus the ad you get from new he from avernus. It is fine as it is

Then go and tell every one of them not to waste other people's time on the random queues. Unless and until you can successfully do that, no, it is not fine as it is. The queues take forever to pop and then they're filled with people who can't finish the content. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

greywynd · January 2020

Oh, I don't know. It's kind of funny to queue up, land in CR, and watch everyone else run screaming and crying for the exit as fast as possible.

shugensha · January 2020

You will find plenty of ppl kicking others in CR so they can leave without the 30 min leaver penalty, and all of that without even trying to complete it. And im talking about 25k+ players who could complete it with little work. At least ppl with lower IL will try to complete the dung.

Everyone was a new player once and entered higher dungs to see how hard it is to have something to aim for, and i know that everyone here was carried at least 1 time in the game. So unless theres a language barrier or the other person just ignores you, you can explain the mechanics or explain to them that ain't geared up enough for the actual dung.
Worst case scenario you can kick them if they fail more than twice or just leave.

And then again, the game gives you other ways to find a party if you don't want to pug it.

feanor70118 · January 2020

shugensha said:
You will find plenty of ppl kicking others in CR so they can leave without the 30 min leaver penalty, and all of that without even trying to complete it. And im talking about 25k+ players who could complete it with little work. At least ppl with lower IL will try to complete the dung.

Everyone was a new player once and entered higher dungs to see how hard it is to have something to aim for, and i know that everyone here was carried at least 1 time in the game. So unless theres a language barrier or the other person just ignores you, you can explain the mechanics or explain to them that ain't geared up enough for the actual dung.
Worst case scenario you can kick them if they fail more than twice or just leave.

And then again, the game gives you other ways to find a party if you don't want to pug it.

Sure. And it also gives newer players better ways to learn a dungeon than to hope that other players can carry them and that those other players will additionally have a shared language and the time and patience to teach newer players who are slowing down or frustrating what should the quick and painless process of getting AD.

And the Game SHOULD, and used to, have separate queues for harder content, because this is a known problem with an obvious solution which, for some mystifying reason, the devs have chosen not to apply.

b4t1b4t · January 2020

Here was my real issue when I was still playing. I would sit in my workshop queing up for LOMM which would take some times if lucky 30 mins when other times it would take as long as 1 to 2 hours. Then I finally get into a party. Only to realize at the first boss the party I am with just could not do the dungeon. Either the tank was not ready or the healer wasnt good or a dps could not handle mimics. Result dungeon fail. Then requeu and again wait the same amount of time only to repeat the same thing. Now yes I know premades but really this type thing would not happen if mini stats was put on dungeons. That would not only cause more dungeons to not fail but would also give players a understanding of what stats they really should have for their class and spec before they are able to que in. This item level thing going on is really out dated and has been when mod 16 hit and changed how the game works.
If only devs would do this to random ques then trust me your get less failed ques.

reg1981 · January 2020

There is nothing fun about sitting in random trial queue for 10 mins just to get CODG and have half the people leave. Yay, another 10 minute wait to TRY again.

I pug random queue's a lot, I carry a lot. Sorry pugs, with these changes your out. Premade it is...

gonzakotwi · January 2020

> @feanor70118 said:
> (Quote)
> Then go and tell every one of them not to waste other people's time on the random queues. Unless and until you can successfully do that, no, it is not fine as it is. The queues take forever to pop and then they're filled with people who can't finish the content. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

You as an experienced player can get a group (maybe your friendlist) and q randoms as a full group. Then you dont have ppl that waste your Time. Ay solo q i have carried many ppl and didnt complain a single time

Unknown · January 2020

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shugensha · January 2020

raven#3338 said:

shugensha said:

Everyone was a new player once and entered higher dungs to see how hard it is to have something to aim for, and i know that everyone here was carried at least 1 time in the game.
Of course, I was carried several times through dungeons I hadn't done before. But then I took the time to learn mechanics and now I am the one who explains it. Sadly most stay at the "I know nothing about this dungeon" stage with no will to learn, with no will to be USEFUL to the group. And it's a group play, not solo.
shugensha said:
you can explain the mechanics or explain to them that ain't geared up enough for the actual dung.
Worst case scenario you can kick them if they fail more than twice or just leave.
And then there these idiots that queue to get their rAD, they know nothing about mechanics but also fail to ask, fail to follow advice from more experienced players. Say TONG. They somehow manage to get to the last boss, fail it twice and... vote abandon. Vote abandon is the most stupid thing they could ever introduce. If I spend a lot of time in dungeon I do not wish to waste this time because some potato with 30k acc doesn't kill souls (yes, they were told they would fail at last boss, still they didn't leave and vote kick failed due to other potatoes thinking healer and tank will carry).
Random as a way to find players is fine. Mechanics are easy. People are dumb, though, and in most cases should not queue for anything that is higher than Cloak Tower. Which is sad because getting stats capped is really not that difficult. But this doesn't mean CR, LoMM or CoDG should be removed from random queues. Players must learn also or they must be taught the hard way: inspect, say they're not going to make it, kick.

Yeah, you are right about that most just enter whitout wanting to learn. And yes, the "you don't really have the stats to be usefull" its (sadly) a way to make them understand. Maybe they are in a guild/alliance that doesn't take the time to teach them.
Also, most ppl didn't even complete the campaigns that unlock the dungs, so a fix could be that you need to unlock it in order to access it from the Redq or Rtq. Mostly cuz from FBI to actualy days, you need to KNOW how to use your class and where to stand. Also, forgive me if my english isn't the best.

admiralwarlord · January 2020

On a day when I was very busy and had little time to play, I created a group for REDQ. We fell in CR, and when the sisters arrived at the problem, neither the healer nor the dps knew the mechanics of the Book and it was a disaster. As I was in a hurry, I decided to look for solo and ended up in a LoMM. I was happy to see that one of the players was a PPL from the old ones and don't even look at the other characters. Everything was going well until we got to the first Boss. We failed once, twice, 3 times, all because some of the dps couldn't break 1 mimic. I decided to look at the characters, and I saw that everyone had the status to run ToMM, but the player who could not break the mimic did not use a companion augmentation. He had little power, despite balanced status. I had to kick him so that the random could be finished.

I remember well that I was kicked a few times, that I was carried (often, ty Galatic i love u!), and that made me seek knowledge to evolve as a player. It is a bad thing to do, but sometimes it is necessary. There are many new players and they need to seek knowledge or all the content will have to be changed so that everything is easy as they did with MSP and CoDG which no longer kills permanently when falling from the platforms.

edenfay · January 2020

admiralwarlord#3792 said:
On a day when I was very busy and had little time to play, I created a group for REDQ. We fell in CR, and when the sisters arrived at the problem, neither the healer nor the dps knew the mechanics of the Book and it was a disaster. As I was in a hurry, I decided to look for solo and ended up in a LoMM. I was happy to see that one of the players was a PPL from the old ones and don't even look at the other characters. Everything was going well until we got to the first Boss. We failed once, twice, 3 times, all because some of the dps couldn't break 1 mimic. I decided to look at the characters, and I saw that everyone had the status to run ToMM, but the player who could not break the mimic did not use a companion augmentation. He had little power, despite balanced status. I had to kick him so that the random could be finished.

I remember well that I was kicked a few times, that I was carried (often, ty Galatic i love u!), and that made me seek knowledge to evolve as a player. It is a bad thing to do, but sometimes it is necessary. There are many new players and they need to seek knowledge or all the content will have to be changed so that everything is easy as they did with MSP and CoDG which no longer kills permanently when falling from the platforms.

to be fair, the Arcturia fight is quite easily done with only two strong DPS if the mechanics are played right: you only need to kill 6 mimics to end the phase, so the strong DPS can burst the first mimic at their corners, then dash to join the other two corners, finish the other pair, then help finish the last two. One useless DPS shouldn't be a showstopper in this fight, especially if the healer and tank are geared (my soulweaver can solo a corner if necessary, and that's even without killing flames...)

Caveat for those glitchy fast-mimic phases which are often a mess regardless.

This method also allows easy carry of alliance members through learning runs, or even 4x lomm runs when you're impatient and can't be bothered to find a fifth.

b4t1b4t · January 2020

This statement might sound harsh and most might even say bad things for me saying it but to be fair maybe the first boss can be done with 2 strong dps and carry that third but should it? honestly when I use to do lomm and if 1 dps just could not handle it I would kick why because I also knew what was coming later in that dungeon and 1 low dps could cause it all to go down hill. I get if your running with friends or guild mates carrying is fine but in a random I am not one to carry someone and I also wish the same respect when it comes to me. If I run with you and I suck badly I wish to be kicked.

namelesshero347 · January 2020

Shouldn't be too bad, at least for the next few weeks before people start unlocking IC. I've started doing RTQ and REQ every day now for fallen seals. When I was doing LoMM before it was taken out of REQ, my Rouge was usually close-second DPS, sometimes top DPS. Now I've seen a good number of players doing double or triple my DPS. I assume these are ToMM-geared players as I have made zero improvement to my Rouge not expecting to get into ToMM.

devilxjk · January 2020

IL until mod 15 was an experience meter, but not now you can easily raise your IL.

i dont see in codg any problem, it's a lot easier now that you cant fall/(permadeath).

the real problem is CR/Lomm

Lomm is a gear check (power check)(need scaling fix)

Cr is skill/experience check(this cant stay on queue)

Until now CR is the most difficult 5man dungeon of neverwinter, cant be compared to the others and cant be carried by 1man.

marvyn · January 2020

There's a wider problem here than just specific dungeons in the queue finder, and it has to do with the overall rewards.

Basically, players are forced do take part in the random queue system do obtain AD to refine their daily limit. No one is really doing any of these random dungeons for the gear obtained within, possibly with the exception of LOMM.

So people sign for a random dungeon or trial to get their first AD bonus of the day for each. But if you look at the dungeons this ranges from LOMM/CR/TONG - all of which take a good time to complete - to Temple of the Spider. Yet you get the same rAD rewards for every dungeon, even though Temple of the Spider is a lot easier and quicker than CR.

I usually queue alone as healer. Sometimes I go with guildies. If I've queued alone, if any of LOMM/CR/TONG pops up, I have a quick inspect of the group, and decide whether to leave immediately and go and do something else for 30 minutes. More often than not, it's just not worth staying in the group. I can use the 30 minutes of 'penalty' to go and do something else in-game and try again later.

Today I got a LOMM in progress. It was at Arcturia. Group looked okay - well geared. Except that I was healer and ofc - whenever that goes wrong it is the healer's fault. I managed to solo my green mimic - no idea where the tank was. However, by about the 2nd phase of mimics there were 4 golems up, some of them loose around the room. Obviously, when the person was then cocooned, they exploded as my healing spell (Intercession) landed instead on one of the dps being clubbed by a loose golem... I asked to be kicked... didn't have time for the grief.

Immediately after this I got put into a Lair of Lostmauth in progress. Now we know that last dragon usually kills people not paying attention, but the tank and I survived to kill it and I got my rAD without any real fuss.

My point is - that the rewards are completely off given:

A: The relative time involved in the varied dungeons,
B: The relative chance of success /difficulty of the instance.

Same applies for Trials. At the moment in a completely random group, I'd say 95%+ of Demogorgons result in a success, 80%+ of Svardborg, 60% of Tiamat, and I'm not sure about CODG yet - the two occasions it has turned up in a random the group has failed. But you basically get the same queue reward for all of them...

Moving CR and CODG back to the random queues was a terrible idea

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