Professions

deanski07 · October 2019

Now that most of us profession type players have all our professions at level 80,its sooo sad to realize that the only thing worth while making is potions(but not the +1 ones as you guys still have not made them work),and profession tools. Alot of us have wasted much time,AD,and cash to get our professions to where they are and there isnt anything worth making! PLEASE give us recipes that are at minimum as good as the best stuff out there,like IL 1010,at VERY least! Do not keep us hanging!

kharkov58 · October 2019

Won't happen. Too many elitists out there that say good gear should only be gotten if you run the latest content.

mdarkangel · October 2019

And that's the way it should be. The best gear should only be available for running the hardest content.

However, crafting should provide a next best option for those who don't want to run the hardest content but want something a little better. Maybe this will happen when Masterworks gets an update. We'll just have to wait and see.

mintmark · October 2019

Except... we are running the hardest content. We've selected and trained our artisans, upgraded our workshop and made our own tools. We make appropriate supplements and gather ingredients from far and wide over the year, as well as gathering gold. And we bear the risk of failure each time we attempt something. And the hardest part of all... we do all that within a limited inventory space that doesn't get bigger.

Much more challenging that killing a few monsters with other players helping...

bigman99 · October 2019

mdarkangel#4696 said:
And that's the way it should be. The best gear should only be available for running the hardest content.

However, crafting should provide a next best option for those who don't want to run the hardest content but want something a little better. Maybe this will happen when Masterworks gets an update. We'll just have to wait and see.

Can't quite agree with you on this opinion. We already have Guantlgrym as part of the game, why not expand it to include the forge of Guantlgyrm as well? By using that device numerous incredibly powerful items were crafted or reforged, including Bruenors shield, his axe, and combining Twinkle and Vidrinath for Drizzt, I think that if people are willing to put lots of time and resources towards crafting, it can and should be just as viable for end-game as defeating the hardest dungeon. Both require time and money to be able to be in a position to get those items, both should offer a path (however different) to get to that destination.

thefabricant · October 2019

mintmark said:
Except... we are running the hardest content. We've selected and trained our artisans, upgraded our workshop and made our own tools. We make appropriate supplements and gather ingredients from far and wide over the year, as well as gathering gold. And we bear the risk of failure each time we attempt something. And the hardest part of all... we do all that within a limited inventory space that doesn't get bigger.

Much more challenging that killing a few monsters with other players helping...

Today I learned that professions, the things I rush through from 1 tier to the next in about 1h, are harder than ToMM. All it takes is AD and a spreadsheet, there is 0 challenge involved.

jules · October 2019

Oh because there cannot be more than one good armour set! This is NW after all!
There would be several ways to include good armor sets / single pieces that could mix with endgame gear or several stat options, I mean... Don't need to fry my brain if there is only one viable bis piece / slot.

But yes its better to discuss if running the same piece of content for so many times should be more or less rewarding than one of the greatest AD sinks of NW.

Length comparison all over again.

This is a game everybody enjoys differently. Why does it always involve a big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> discussion when people want to feel rewarded?
This is what gaming is about... Unlocking Tier 1 of endorphins or something...

kharkov58 · October 2019

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?

thefabricant · October 2019

jules#6770 said:
Oh because there cannot be more than one good armour set! This is NW after all!

There would be several ways to include good armor sets / single pieces that could mix with endgame gear or several stat options, I mean... Don't need to fry my brain if there is only one viable bis piece / slot.

But yes its better to discuss if running the same piece of content for so many times should be more or less rewarding than one of the greatest AD sinks of NW.

Length comparison all over again.

This is a game everybody enjoys differently. Why does it always involve a big HAMSTER discussion when people want to feel rewarded?

This is what gaming is about... Unlocking Tier 1 of endorphins or something...

And there is also a huge other pool of discussion of whether or not 1 system should invalidate another system and whether it is good design, it *isn't.* There are plenty of useful things professions could craft without it conflicting with item slots, which is discussed at length in other threads. You aren't telling me anything I am not aware of, I did a large amount of crafting when MW gear was BiS and had legendary tools before they were made obsolete. I am well aware of the amounts of AD a crafter handles. I am also well aware of the fact that a system which folds the moment a new tier of content is added and is difficult to update rapidly is not a good system and should be changed in a way that makes it more robust and less fragile to changes in the item economy.

The easy way to do that, is to make professions craft augmentations to items or auxiliary items not related to the gear you wear, this way the professions and dungeons systems are harmonious and don't conflict with each other.

jules · October 2019

I agree. Just doubt that anybody will take real care to give profession the update it really needs. If they take your advice, the next MW recipes will be a load of stuff that is semi-useful and will not be as profitable. Potions are broken, Armorkits have a fixed price due to obvious reasons ... SH items are either not worth it at all or overachieving, and the demand for that is not the highest either.
Other games can do it too - say you farm BIS dungeon gear in tomm, there could be other gear in MW. Say we get gear from endgame content, but BIS weapons from both. The options are there, but whatever the devs will choose to put into the next recipes will not be viable for more then 1-2 mods, again. If its gear, people will HAMSTER about the MW-crafters as if it's THEIR fault.
It isn't.
I don't think that you didn't think about it or something @thefabricant, I know you do. I don't usually have a problem with your opinion, since you know this game far better than me I presume.
It's the choice of putting others down for the way they engage with the game, because it isn't the same as yours I have a problem with. Not everybody not choosing to run tomm instead is an idiot that cannot play their main.

tchefi · October 2019

mdarkangel#4696 said:
And that's the way it should be. The best gear should only be available for running the hardest content.

However, crafting should provide a next best option for those who don't want to run the hardest content but want something a little better. Maybe this will happen when Masterworks gets an update. We'll just have to wait and see.

I strongly disagree with that.

In a bunch of old games i played, successful craft system had always involved some fundamental principles :
- a wide part of equipments can be crafted
- 1 or 2 collectible + 1 or 2 lootable + 1 intermediate craftable = 1 crafted equipment.
- relevant consummables
- everything is sellable/buyable on AH

I'm not a super big fan of crafting in any game (even back in the days i was playing Ultima Online), but i also very much dislike the wild RNG for looting equipment that came into RPG from Hack&Slash.

In my opinion, crafted object should at least be equivalent to looted ones.

Keep in mind that craft and loot are not mutual exclusive, in fact they should be strongly tied together rather than being on 2 quite separate paths (which is the case now on NWO).

Here is my point of view :

I regret that we don't need to know/contact any crafters in order to equip ourselves.

It's one of the enjoying part of MMORPG : to enter in a communauty, make your hole, interract with others. The more the game, by its design, make you meet/fight with or against/speak/negociate/roleplay/etc with other players, the more the game will achieve really something.
And the more i get old and see new games and new games, the more we tend to encounter automatized concepts to "ease" the gaming experience (while in fact reducing the social interractions between players).
What the point of playing a MMO if I can play it mostly solo (or "simili-solo", considering players i am with in a dungeon not differently than any random NPC citizen wandering around in PE) ?

But i'm digressing...

Every equipment you can loot should also be craftable and vice-versa (with some exceptions, because you want the exclusive factor to be applied sometimes).
At least one of the ingredients needed to craft one specific equipment should be a loot droped by a specific ennemy/encounter (and not a craftable/collectible).

Ex :
- let's say the Demogorgon's Girdle has 0,5% chance to be found in the end chests of eDemo (you don't want the "lucky loot" factor to be gone).
- let's say it is now also craftable. Ingredients : x + y + z + 200 Demogorgon pubic hairs.
- let's say you make the loot table so that everytime you do an eDemo, you have 75% chance to loot 1 pubic hair.

Statistically it should take a bit more time to make the Girdle by the craft, so le lucky looter can still live, but at least, hard work or market play (or crafter/merchant organizations, as i had seen on some other games) can also have a place.

jules · October 2019

I strongly agree @tchefi. There were some hints of what I see in other games' crafting on NW, too - like manticore pieces farming, where people farmed Hati/FBI/MSVA for manticore hide if I remember correctly.
I remember it dropped on my first ever FBI run ever and I was so happy!
But it feels like every interaction and drop that actually could serve to make some AD nowadays has to be nerfed/reconsidered, I don't know... It felt so useless to me when I found out how short the MW BIS lifespan usually is (took me a while to catch up on MW)
There is nothing of that if all you can do is put some guild marks into a explorers and make some potions and that's really it.

When we are talking how bis gear should never come from MW, only tomm (or yeah, whatever) are we talking ALL of it? Or do you not care about some things as long as you can make hella money? Like. If you said, for example, gear should drop/bought by seals bta, does that entail weapons? Probably. Then you need the rings to make profit, yeah. So... would comp gear be okay? Yes? Is there something more acceptable than broken stuff?

Imagine there is something like summer fest crafting of food buff stuff instead of that profession that you would like to see become useless, tomm guys, that would be okay? To make good lasting food stuff in a profession called kitchen or whatnot?
(or is that too eso with food that actually matters, watermelon sorbet aside?)

thefabricant · October 2019

jules#6770 said:
I agree. Just doubt that anybody will take real care to give profession the update it really needs. If they take your advice, the next MW recipes will be a load of stuff that is semi-useful and will not be as profitable. Potions are broken, Armorkits have a fixed price due to obvious reasons ... SH items are either not worth it at all or overachieving, and the demand for that is not the highest either.
Other games can do it too - say you farm BIS dungeon gear in tomm, there could be other gear in MW. Say we get gear from endgame content, but BIS weapons from both. The options are there, but whatever the devs will choose to put into the next recipes will not be viable for more then 1-2 mods, again. If its gear, people will HAMSTER about the MW-crafters as if it's THEIR fault.
It isn't.
I don't think that you didn't think about it or something @thefabricant, I know you do. I don't usually have a problem with your opinion, since you know this game far better than me I presume.
It's the choice of putting others down for the way they engage with the game, because it isn't the same as yours I have a problem with. Not everybody not choosing to run tomm instead is an idiot that cannot play their main.

The only thing it requires to make kits expensive is to make crafting them similar to gear, multiple crafting steps, high barrier to entry and heavy investment. Especially if they actually do something, for example, a 3% damage reinforcement kits.

tchefi#6735 said:

mdarkangel#4696 said:
And that's the way it should be. The best gear should only be available for running the hardest content.

However, crafting should provide a next best option for those who don't want to run the hardest content but want something a little better. Maybe this will happen when Masterworks gets an update. We'll just have to wait and see.
I strongly disagree with that.

In a bunch of old games i played, successful craft system had always involved some fundamental principles :
- a wide part of equipments can be crafted
- 1 or 2 collectible + 1 or 2 lootable + 1 intermediate craftable = 1 crafted equipment.
- relevant consummables
- everything is sellable/buyable on AH

I'm not a super big fan of crafting in any game (even back in the days i was playing Ultima Online), but i also very much dislike the wild RNG for looting equipment that came into RPG from Hack&Slash.

In my opinion, crafted object should at least be equivalent to looted ones.

Keep in mind that craft and loot are not mutual exclusive, in fact they should be strongly tied together rather than being on 2 quite separate paths (which is the case now on NWO).

Here is my point of view :

I regret that we don't need to know/contact any crafters in order to equip ourselves.

It's one of the enjoying part of MMORPG : to enter in a communauty, make your hole, interract with others. The more the game, by its design, make you meet/fight with or against/speak/negociate/roleplay/etc with other players, the more the game will achieve really something.
And the more i get old and see new games and new games, the more we tend to encounter automatized concepts to "ease" the gaming experience (while in fact reducing the social interractions between players).
What the point of playing a MMO if I can play it mostly solo (or "simili-solo", considering players i am with in a dungeon not differently than any random NPC citizen wandering around in PE) ?

But i'm digressing...

Every equipment you can loot should also be craftable and vice-versa (with some exceptions, because you want the exclusive factor to be applied sometimes).
At least one of the ingredients needed to craft one specific equipment should be a loot droped by a specific ennemy/encounter (and not a craftable/collectible).

Ex :
- let's say the Demogorgon's Girdle has 0,5% chance to be found in the end chests of eDemo (you don't want the "lucky loot" factor to be gone).
- let's say it is now also craftable. Ingredients : x + y + z + 200 Demogorgon pubic hairs.
- let's say you make the loot table so that everytime you do an eDemo, you have 75% chance to loot 1 pubic hair.

Statistically it should take a bit more time to make the Girdle by the craft, so le lucky looter can still live, but at least, hard work or market play (or crafter/merchant organizations, as i had seen on some other games) can also have a place.

Crafted gear and dungeon gear should be mutually exclusive. This game is not ultima online or world of warcraft, it has a small development team and the key to making a quality product that can be updated easily from mod to mod is to design content in a way that the new content doesn't automatically invalidate the old content. If crafted gear is as good as dungeon gear, there is no reason to run dungeons. If you cannot craft gear, but you can craft major upgrades to gear which drops in dungeons, or items which you cannot currently drop in dungeons (for example, belt slot items), then you can update 1 system without invalidating the other system.

This is just being smart with resource allocation and its blatantly obvious as well that this is what cryptic should be doing with almost everything, but they are instead designing content as if they are a 200 man team and can afford to redo every system every single mod. And no, I am not just saying this because I dislike professions, if the best gear comes from professions I will do professions and make AD. If the best gear comes from dungeons I will farm dungeons and make AD. I just believe it is bat-HAMSTER insane to design a system in a way so that you make all your older systems obsolete if you were to update it.

pitshade · October 2019

So a system where you take something like the gloves you got from a hard dungeon and reinforce them? Or maybe you could collect shards of a weapon from dungeons and reforge them using weaponsmithing or artificing? Is such a thing even feasible?

jules · October 2019

pitshade said:
So a system where you take something like the gloves you got from a hard dungeon and reinforce them? Or maybe you could collect shards of a weapon from dungeons and reforge them using weaponsmithing or artificing? Is such a thing even feasible?

Imagine weapons/those gloves actually being BIS for a few mods... Then yes.
But as soon as I read on the forum "is going to be BIS for a while" I read "will be BIS for next mod" like ...

Generally:
Even if all professions' MW would exclude gear (because if MW gear is worse then dungeon gear, there is no reason to craft it, either, aye? No need to unlock stuff worth mils of AD for a armor piece of 10k everybody will try to craft and sell that is second best. NW doesn't do second best well.) and we would go for upgrades/armor kits/whatnot, there needs to be another M15 done for real this time to make it viable.
I don't see it. I don't see this kind of rework in the future, there won't be any reworking/changing direction considering vertical/horizontal progression.
I would like to see a better approach here, but there is not even fixing what doesn't work in a system they already overhauled.

TL;DR I'm just salty about throwing out a lot of AD for stuff to be obsolete after I went out for a smoke for a min. I'm very salty about my forgehammer. I really really wished we would see iniative to actually impact on the game most fundamental flaws.

Unknown · October 2019

This content has been removed.

plasticbat · October 2019

pitshade said:
So a system where you take something like the gloves you got from a hard dungeon and reinforce them? Or maybe you could collect shards of a weapon from dungeons and reforge them using weaponsmithing or artificing? Is such a thing even feasible?

I am certain using weaponsmithing is not feasible.

pitshade · October 2019

For those who weren't around, that was what you did with t2 gloves like High Vizier back before the devs added reinforcement kits. The weapons from Malabog and Valindra dungeons were crafted as described as well. Those systems lasted for a fair amount of times and worked well... except the devs had to keep redesigning wheels.

jules · October 2019

pitshade said:
For those who weren't around, that was what you did with t2 gloves like High Vizier back before the devs added reinforcement kits. The weapons from Malabog and Valindra dungeons were crafted as described as well. Those systems lasted for a fair amount of times and worked well... except the devs had to keep redesigning wheels.

Probably because you can attract a different kind of playerbase with shiny easily obtainable new things each mod, which is a sad way to go about things in and for the long run, imo.
Maybe I'm pessimistic about it because it does feel like the end phase of that long run already, and changing systems around now would be too much work for something that is not a new and shinier game.

sandukutupu · October 2019

thefabricant said:

jules#6770 said:
I agree. Just doubt that anybody will take real care to give profession the update it really needs. If they take your advice, the next MW recipes will be a load of stuff that is semi-useful and will not be as profitable. Potions are broken, Armorkits have a fixed price due to obvious reasons ... SH items are either not worth it at all or overachieving, and the demand for that is not the highest either.
Other games can do it too - say you farm BIS dungeon gear in tomm, there could be other gear in MW. Say we get gear from endgame content, but BIS weapons from both. The options are there, but whatever the devs will choose to put into the next recipes will not be viable for more then 1-2 mods, again. If its gear, people will HAMSTER about the MW-crafters as if it's THEIR fault.
It isn't.
I don't think that you didn't think about it or something @thefabricant, I know you do. I don't usually have a problem with your opinion, since you know this game far better than me I presume.
It's the choice of putting others down for the way they engage with the game, because it isn't the same as yours I have a problem with. Not everybody not choosing to run tomm instead is an idiot that cannot play their main.
The only thing it requires to make kits expensive is to make crafting them similar to gear, multiple crafting steps, high barrier to entry and heavy investment. Especially if they actually do something, for example, a 3% damage reinforcement kits.
tchefi#6735 said:

mdarkangel#4696 said:
And that's the way it should be. The best gear should only be available for running the hardest content.

However, crafting should provide a next best option for those who don't want to run the hardest content but want something a little better. Maybe this will happen when Masterworks gets an update. We'll just have to wait and see.
I strongly disagree with that.

In a bunch of old games i played, successful craft system had always involved some fundamental principles :
- a wide part of equipments can be crafted
- 1 or 2 collectible + 1 or 2 lootable + 1 intermediate craftable = 1 crafted equipment.
- relevant consummables
- everything is sellable/buyable on AH

I'm not a super big fan of crafting in any game (even back in the days i was playing Ultima Online), but i also very much dislike the wild RNG for looting equipment that came into RPG from Hack&Slash.

In my opinion, crafted object should at least be equivalent to looted ones.

Keep in mind that craft and loot are not mutual exclusive, in fact they should be strongly tied together rather than being on 2 quite separate paths (which is the case now on NWO).

Here is my point of view :

I regret that we don't need to know/contact any crafters in order to equip ourselves.

It's one of the enjoying part of MMORPG : to enter in a communauty, make your hole, interract with others. The more the game, by its design, make you meet/fight with or against/speak/negociate/roleplay/etc with other players, the more the game will achieve really something.
And the more i get old and see new games and new games, the more we tend to encounter automatized concepts to "ease" the gaming experience (while in fact reducing the social interractions between players).
What the point of playing a MMO if I can play it mostly solo (or "simili-solo", considering players i am with in a dungeon not differently than any random NPC citizen wandering around in PE) ?

But i'm digressing...

Every equipment you can loot should also be craftable and vice-versa (with some exceptions, because you want the exclusive factor to be applied sometimes).
At least one of the ingredients needed to craft one specific equipment should be a loot droped by a specific ennemy/encounter (and not a craftable/collectible).

Ex :
- let's say the Demogorgon's Girdle has 0,5% chance to be found in the end chests of eDemo (you don't want the "lucky loot" factor to be gone).
- let's say it is now also craftable. Ingredients : x + y + z + 200 Demogorgon pubic hairs.
- let's say you make the loot table so that everytime you do an eDemo, you have 75% chance to loot 1 pubic hair.

Statistically it should take a bit more time to make the Girdle by the craft, so le lucky looter can still live, but at least, hard work or market play (or crafter/merchant organizations, as i had seen on some other games) can also have a place.
Crafted gear and dungeon gear should be mutually exclusive. This game is not ultima online or world of warcraft, it has a small development team and the key to making a quality product that can be updated easily from mod to mod is to design content in a way that the new content doesn't automatically invalidate the old content. If crafted gear is as good as dungeon gear, there is no reason to run dungeons. If you cannot craft gear, but you can craft major upgrades to gear which drops in dungeons, or items which you cannot currently drop in dungeons (for example, belt slot items), then you can update 1 system without invalidating the other system.

This is just being smart with resource allocation and its blatantly obvious as well that this is what cryptic should be doing with almost everything, but they are instead designing content as if they are a 200 man team and can afford to redo every system every single mod. And no, I am not just saying this because I dislike professions, if the best gear comes from professions I will do professions and make AD. If the best gear comes from dungeons I will farm dungeons and make AD. I just believe it is bat-HAMSTER insane to design a system in a way so that you make all your older systems obsolete if you were to update it.

This conversation reminded me of the original Guild Wars crafting system, some claim we don't have one, we have to collect ingredients and take them to an artisan. Usually their shop is near a lot of choice enemies. For example; in Prophecies when you beat the lich and won the first game, you were given a choice of unique weapons. I always took the scythe. In the final chamber was an artisan Grand Mason Stonecleaver who crafted the weapons for materials; 10 Steel Ingots and 10 Deldrimor Steel Ingots. It also cost 10,000 gold for labor. The catch was, to get to this shop again, you had to run the end game mission content again, which was no picnic getting there the first time. Also you are limited to carry up to 100K gold with you, at best you walk out with 10 weapons. Weapons being made and content being repeated. Meanwhile Deldrimor Steel Ingots were made by other artisans and they needed; 10 Iron Ingots, 1 Lump of Charcoal, 5 Piles of Glittering Dust, and 200 gold for labor. Those artisans were on pretty tough areas to reach as well. The only artisans found within capitals and cities created the more common gear. The gear crafted was in fact better than the dungeon gear reward. The reward was unique, but players wanted the crafted because it could be altered. For example; the unique Deldrimor Axe has fixed values of, Damage +15% (while Health is above 50%), Armor penetration +20% (Chance: 20%), and Health +30. The crafted rare quality Deldrimor Axe has none of those features, but could contain anything the player desired to add using inscriptions, axe haft, and axe grip. Neverwinter is not Guild Wars, but I do agree that @tchefi#6735 has a valid point that items within hard to reach areas could contain the ingredients for better weapons and gear.

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