Oathbound Paladin Class suggestions and changes for Mod 16

majorcharvenak · October 2018

Greetings and Salutations, my fellow knights and warrior-priests of the Realms!

As I mentioned over in the Preview forums, it looks like the Mod 15 changes to the class are probably locked in and I suspect they will not be changed before it goes live. Now with mod 15, there were some interesting (and in some cases welcome) improvements to the OP, but some felt the changes weren't enough. Some felt that some powers and abilities need to be scaled back as they contribute to unbalanced group play in PvE. Others were looking for additional changes and reworks to feats and powers to improve pally performance in PvP. Here is the place where we can come and work those out.

I would kindly ask and remind all who wish to participate to stay respectful of others ideas. Debating the merits/demerits of a proposed change is welcome and encouraged, but please keep it civil. If you feel the need to flame or troll, please take it elsewhere as I would avoid the smiting wrath of the demigods (a.k.a. moderators) and have them send this thread into obscurity. I would also kindly ask for the following:

Any suggestions to radically change or combine the functionality of common class powers (by that I mean at-wills, encounters, aura, etc. available to BOTH paragon paths) for a specific paragon be limited to that paragon's effects. As an example, if I wanted to change TW to something more meaningful for Devotion paladins, I would limit my proposed change to its effects when cast by Devos, not its shared effect or how it works on Prots. I would identify that with (On Devos only). That being said, If you want to propose changes to your favorite paragon's specific abilities, powers, auras and feats - Have at it. Just identify it with the identifier (Prot) or (Devo).
If your proposed changes are for use in PvP, please highlight that and identify that as such. If the change is to an existing feat, recommend the effect be added to the existing power for PvP only. I'd much rather avoid getting into a back and forth battle between PvEers and PvPers.
If you are proposing certain powers, feats, or auras be scaled back or toned down (like AoC, Aura Gifts, Prot class mechanic, Devo class mechanic, etc.) please identify with (Re-balance) and what you think the new values should be. I would also ask that you come up with some suggested improvements in other areas to 'soften the blow' the reduction you propose, and possibly add some utility elsewhere.

I'll be combing the Mod 15 OP Class Changes and start by pulling the suggestions from there. Hopefully, when its all done it will give the Devs something to consider (and potentially implement) if further re-balance and changes are to take place in Mod 16. So don your armor, grab your main-hand and lets have at it!

ghoulz66 · October 2018

What was the bottom tree called again? The healing one, which kinda makes no sense for protection tank.

They really should gut that and completely overhaul it into something different. Aside from by power buff, there's no point to it. The capstone is good in pvp, but that's it. Maybe a proper support tree.

leonidrex · October 2018

ghoulz66 said:
What was the bottom tree called again? The healing one, which kinda makes no sense for protection tank.

They really should gut that and completely overhaul it into something different. Aside from by power buff, there's no point to it. The capstone is good in pvp, but that's it. Maybe a proper support tree.

yep, nerf AoC nerf powershare. make dps tree DPS tree. tank tree TANK tree and light tree proper buff/debuff tree

majorcharvenak · October 2018

That would Light and yeah, aside from aura gifts it doesn't provide much to a prot in PvE. In PvP, it seems to make its money given how much it heals in the presence of healing depression. I wouldn't mind a change to that tree myself, to give it a better support focus outside of healing.

majorcharvenak · October 2018

leonidrex said:

ghoulz66 said:
What was the bottom tree called again? The healing one, which kinda makes no sense for protection tank.

They really should gut that and completely overhaul it into something different. Aside from by power buff, there's no point to it. The capstone is good in pvp, but that's it. Maybe a proper support tree.
yep, nerf AoC nerf powershare. make dps tree DPS tree. tank tree TANK tree and light tree proper buff/debuff tree

Question: How much would you reduce AoC and do you reduce it on the paladin's damage, the group's damage or both? If so, how much?

leonidrex · October 2018

majorcharvenak said:

leonidrex said:

ghoulz66 said:
What was the bottom tree called again? The healing one, which kinda makes no sense for protection tank.

They really should gut that and completely overhaul it into something different. Aside from by power buff, there's no point to it. The capstone is good in pvp, but that's it. Maybe a proper support tree.
yep, nerf AoC nerf powershare. make dps tree DPS tree. tank tree TANK tree and light tree proper buff/debuff tree
Question: How much would you reduce AoC and do you reduce it on the paladin's damage, the group's damage or both? If so, how much?

depends what we get in turn, most our dmg comes from AoC so we need to be reasonable.
also our only good AoE consists of 9x AoC procs.
-We could have it deal 0,35 + 0,05% of paladins hp as dmg, and have it 3x effect on us ( allies get 0,5% we get 1,5% )
-We could have it nerfed to 0,7% total and have feat that makes our auras twice as effective for us ( it would be amazing for solo loadout with AoS btw, wouldnt be abused in pvp with AoT since its against enemies )
-We could make it deal dmg based on paladins buffs/power, and others simply apply it. ( this would be very sisable nerf, propably would deal 3-4x less dmg for me and make less geared paladins much weaker, so we could use strong compensation in return )

majorcharvenak · October 2018

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:

leonidrex said:

ghoulz66 said:
What was the bottom tree called again? The healing one, which kinda makes no sense for protection tank.

They really should gut that and completely overhaul it into something different. Aside from by power buff, there's no point to it. The capstone is good in pvp, but that's it. Maybe a proper support tree.
yep, nerf AoC nerf powershare. make dps tree DPS tree. tank tree TANK tree and light tree proper buff/debuff tree
Question: How much would you reduce AoC and do you reduce it on the paladin's damage, the group's damage or both? If so, how much?
depends what we get in turn, most our dmg comes from AoC so we need to be reasonable.
also our only good AoE consists of 9x AoC procs.
-We could have it deal 0,35 + 0,05% of paladins hp as dmg, and have it 3x effect on us ( allies get 0,5% we get 1,5% )
-We could have it nerfed to 0,7% total and have feat that makes our auras twice as effective for us ( it would be amazing for solo loadout with AoS btw, wouldnt be abused in pvp with AoT since its against enemies )
-We could make it deal dmg based on paladins buffs/power, and others simply apply it. ( this would be very sisable nerf, propably would deal 3-4x less dmg for me and make less geared paladins much weaker, so we could use strong compensation in return )

Agreed, though I must ask, if it were based off buffs/power then whats to stop folks from stacking the HAMSTER out of that?

majorcharvenak · October 2018

Also just saw an idea on Preview side from @hastur905 calling for a change to Bane/Bless to where the devos can only bless (buff) allies and not debuff foes via bane since the prots can only do the latter but not the former. I think I could get behind that but will have to think on that one some more.

leonidrex · October 2018

i just did some testing and let me tell you, our feats are so HAMSTER bad it not even funny anymore.

majorcharvenak said:
Also just saw an idea on Preview side from @hastur905 calling for a change to Bane/Bless to where the devos can only bless (buff) allies and not debuff foes via bane since the prots can only do the latter but not the former. I think I could get behind that but will have to think on that one some more.

that would be a good change, makes devo less overpowered

still gonna remain braindead tho

wish we could work on that

majorcharvenak · October 2018

leonidrex said:
i just did some testing and let me tell you, our feats are so HAMSTER bad it not even funny anymore.
majorcharvenak said:
Also just saw an idea on Preview side from @hastur905 calling for a change to Bane/Bless to where the devos can only bless (buff) allies and not debuff foes via bane since the prots can only do the latter but not the former. I think I could get behind that but will have to think on that one some more.
that would be a good change, makes devo less overpowered still gonna remain braindead tho wish we could work on that

Well...INT isn't one of our core stats, @Leonidrex.

hastur905 · November 2018

I think calling for a nerf on AoC is somewhat short sighted. With the changes to the weapons of light works for 2 DC parties and the nerf in MoD 15 for DO's why in the world would you be wanting to nerf one of the major reasons we are considered almost a must have in parties?

Back in the day AoC damage was only recorded in the OP damage chart, everyone complained saying OP's needed to be nerfed, butter knife was the first victim, damage done being severely nerfed into the ground and then limited to 5 targets. Then they corrected the damage chart counter and AoC damage was then spread out over the group.

AoC adds to the damage done by the party member based on their HP, so the only reason I would think that your proposed damage reduction makes any sense is:

1) you don't actually play an OP and don't understand how AoC works, because you are asking for a 25% nerf to your own damage.
2) you play a GF Tank and feel ur relevance would be greatly improved.
3) you want to help the Devs make dungeons harder again.

If your answer is anything but 3, your wasting my time.

There are a very few changes that should be made in powers, most changes should be made in feats however. The fact that Justice for PVE is the predominant feat path for both Prot and Devo is just bad for the class. Yes, yes we take the 15 points in light for the powersharing, at least some do, I know a few that don't. The Dev's have made some changes to the Bulwark tree in MoD 15 some of which I found very interesting and at least made me test out a new Bulwark build. I don't like the idea of combining encounter powers with at-wills. I will however take a serious look at the feats and make some suggestions.

veywiil · November 2018

The Light and Bulwark should be viable. I agree on that. I'd be more than happy to have damage given to the justice tree, and remove the cooldown nonsense into the light tree. The fact both of those are combined, is utterly broken and the reason for the tree's dominance since release.

leonidrex · November 2018

Justice tree is not even that good, just everything else suck. if you had a choice for group content to take power share OR entire justice tree. what would you take? I would definitely take the feat that gives 80k+ power to everyone in the party.
as for AoC nerf, it needs to happen same with power share. AoC should be that small bonus that makes 10-15% of someones damage, not 30% or sometimes even more whats worse is that classes ( gwf ) apply it way faster then others. But we should recive some compensation buffs in turn, some useless powers should be changed ( divine touch, banishment, relentless avenger, font of life ).

rasppitor · November 2018

As I see it the 3 trees are trying for 3 different purposes, justice for dmg/cooldown, bulwark for tanking, and light for healing. The problem I see is that the best healing feat(prism) is in the justice tree, which means that justice is best for cooldown/dmg and healing. I propose that prism should be moved to the light tree and another feat be moved to justice(I'm not sure what would be a suitably replacement though)

majorcharvenak · November 2018

rasppitor#2191 said:
As I see it the 3 trees are trying for 3 different purposes, justice for dmg/cooldown, bulwark for tanking, and light for healing. The problem I see is that the best healing feat(prism) is in the justice tree, which means that justice is best for cooldown/dmg and healing. I propose that prism should be moved to the light tree and another feat be moved to justice(I'm not sure what would be a suitably replacement though)

Agreed. It almost makes me think that prism should have been placed in the Light tree, while something like Light Touch or Holy Bonds was meant for the Justice tree and they got mixed up during development. Perhaps they decided to move them as they might been unbalanced in the other trees. Not sure. Though it would break my current build, I'd be interested to see how it would operate if Prism and Holy Bonds were swapped.

mithrosnomore · November 2018

I'm not "pro" enough to really have any insights into how some of these work at the very top tiers, but I think that our feat trees need some work.

Last pally I rolled went 11 levels, I think, before I decided on a feat line. I know that the levelling game is not the most challenging thing in the world, but still...

So many choices in the Justice line seem to be all or nothing depending on whether I am in a group or not, and most require a group.
Flash of Light (tier 2) seems to only help allies.
Radiant Champion (tier 3) requires allies within 30'.
Stem the Tide (tier 3) requires that I be over 30' from any allies or have no allies at all.
Beacon of Hope (tier 4) seems to require and only be of benefit to allies.
Prism (tier 5) seems to only help allies.

Where are the "this is a decent choice whether solo or in a group" options that every other class seems to have in all of their feat lines?
Even if they offered more or less benefits one way or the other in order to operate as they do now at maximum effectiveness, at least they could offer something.

Why can't Radiant Champion, for example, give the Paladin a buff if solo? Even if a small buff and it increases in power depending upon how many allies are within the AoE at least the primarily solo paladin would find some benefit in taking that feat.
In the same sense, the buff/debuff from Stem the Tide could shrink depending upon how many allies are near. A solo paladin would find it works as it does now, but it could still offer some benefit in a team setting.

leonidrex · November 2018

@mithrosnomore hmm thats a good observation, we could use feats that work on us. and if we are supposed to be group oriented, just make them weak, and twice as strong for allies so they are good for them and rather weak for us, while still being at least somewhat usefull

majorcharvenak · November 2018

I think if you look at the original announcement from back in mod 6 (and it's supreme speculation on my part) you'll get a sense of why that's the case, or at least, what I think their intention was during the design. Plus with some of the ones @mithrosnomore mentioned, when you look at them and the your feats, powers and abilities as a whole - you shouldn't really need them. Beacon and Prisms are for heals and both paragons have that aspect covered via class mechanics, at-wills, dailies, encounter powers if its needed. Flash of Light? You have aura of wisdom, coupled with Vengeful Judge has you covered there. That's not to say it wouldn't be nice if they worked on you as well as allies, but I think the intent was to make the class more attractive overall for inclusion in the party when compared with the GFs and DCs they were competing with for slots. Again...pure speculation. I would definitely appreciate further clarification on that if anyone has any ground truth.

hastur905 · November 2018

@majorcharvenak you are quite correct in ur assumption that the OP was introduced, as all classes at their inception, to be so attractive and overpowered that they immediately become a part of any group. This was the case with HR's and SW's after them. Once accepted by the masses the eventual readjustment happens to bring them in line with other classes. Initially the main two types of OP's run were Bulwark and Justice, both Proc, this was because at the time, T2 dungeons had some rather over powered archers that could one shot GF's, Bulwarks could withstand this and do some pretty good damage. This slowly evolved over time as Justice began to focus on AP generation, that combined with the Hastening Light offhand created the first initial builds of the Bubbledin. Damage was still a thing for the OP on both trees, but bubbledin was offering the party complete immunity and absorbing all the damage the party took with binding oath and divine protector. Once the Hastening Light issue was resolved it was already to late, the value of the Bubbledin became apparant, so AP gen became the focus, AC clerics with Tac GF's combining with Bubbledins became the tour de force. Then came the adjustment first to the damage of OP's only damage daily. Then not far behind was the change to divine protector and then a little after that to binding oath, signaling the death of the bubbledin build. Around the same time as this people were experimenting with Devo's as well, SKT had added some additional damage dealers to classes that heal, in short order the Burnadin was born, spec'd as a damage dealer yet healing and doing addtional damage through those heals.

Currently we have two basic builds with very little variation, the Baneadin, and the powersharing tank. Both are basically built to support the party, because it has, and will always be a support class. It is not supposed to be top dps in a dungeon run, it is and does bring more to the party than the sum of its parts. The problem as I see it is that one, which requires little to no understanding of mechanics timing etc is the one most requested by endgame. The Baneadin or Afkadin, you set a binding at the begining of the run and basically turn off the brain, ur not involved in the fight, ur just hitting buttons occasionally. I mean god forbid you refuse to bind bless to the main dps, that's grounds for dismissal. Now I know I am sounding a bit hot under the collar, but I am not, it was the same for those who didn't run a Bulwark, Bubbledin or Burnadin back when those were in style. Once Bless is fixed so that it only works on friendlies, instead of the way it does now, both Proc and Devo will be on equal footing again.

That still leaves the issue of were to go with the class? With the release if Hard Core dungeons Bulwark and its changes might help with that, however, as one of fellow OP friends reminded me, recovery was not the only issue with the Bulwark, agro was another, so further testing is required. I do question some of the suggestions though, moving more healing to the healing path that frankly nobody uses because healing right now is not a thing does not seem helpful. On the dps side why complicate it? they did just add 14% base damage across the board, so if that is not good enough for Justice make the capstone do more ... but even with that, our expectation should not be that we challenge for a role as dps, if that is what you want to do then u should be looking at the GWF.

leonidrex · November 2018

hastur905 said:
@majorcharvenak you are quite correct in ur assumption that the OP was introduced, as all classes at their inception, to be so attractive and overpowered that they immediately become a part of any group. This was the case with HR's and SW's after them. Once accepted by the masses the eventual readjustment happens to bring them in line with other classes. Initially the main two types of OP's run were Bulwark and Justice, both Proc, this was because at the time, T2 dungeons had some rather over powered archers that could one shot GF's, Bulwarks could withstand this and do some pretty good damage. This slowly evolved over time as Justice began to focus on AP generation, that combined with the Hastening Light offhand created the first initial builds of the Bubbledin. Damage was still a thing for the OP on both trees, but bubbledin was offering the party complete immunity and absorbing all the damage the party took with binding oath and divine protector. Once the Hastening Light issue was resolved it was already to late, the value of the Bubbledin became apparant, so AP gen became the focus, AC clerics with Tac GF's combining with Bubbledins became the tour de force. Then came the adjustment first to the damage of OP's only damage daily. Then not far behind was the change to divine protector and then a little after that to binding oath, signaling the death of the bubbledin build. Around the same time as this people were experimenting with Devo's as well, SKT had added some additional damage dealers to classes that heal, in short order the Burnadin was born, spec'd as a damage dealer yet healing and doing addtional damage through those heals.

Currently we have two basic builds with very little variation, the Baneadin, and the powersharing tank. Both are basically built to support the party, because it has, and will always be a support class. It is not supposed to be top dps in a dungeon run, it is and does bring more to the party than the sum of its parts. The problem as I see it is that one, which requires little to no understanding of mechanics timing etc is the one most requested by endgame. The Baneadin or Afkadin, you set a binding at the begining of the run and basically turn off the brain, ur not involved in the fight, ur just hitting buttons occasionally. I mean god forbid you refuse to bind bless to the main dps, that's grounds for dismissal. Now I know I am sounding a bit hot under the collar, but I am not, it was the same for those who didn't run a Bulwark, Bubbledin or Burnadin back when those were in style. Once Bless is fixed so that it only works on friendlies, instead of the way it does now, both Proc and Devo will be on equal footing again.

That still leaves the issue of were to go with the class? With the release if Hard Core dungeons Bulwark and its changes might help with that, however, as one of fellow OP friends reminded me, recovery was not the only issue with the Bulwark, agro was another, so further testing is required. I do question some of the suggestions though, moving more healing to the healing path that frankly nobody uses because healing right now is not a thing does not seem helpful. On the dps side why complicate it? they did just add 14% base damage across the board, so if that is not good enough for Justice make the capstone do more ... but even with that, our expectation should not be that we challenge for a role as dps, if that is what you want to do then u should be looking at the GWF.

I love the argument " we got 14% more dmg "
here is how it actually works : 40% of our dmg comes from AoC, 30% comes from SW ( got nerfed ), the rest is around 25% damage that actually got increased by that 14% for a grand total of 3,5% damage increase ( might actually be dps loss due to SW nerf, i didnt test that since i dont care anymore )

thats for pve, oh boy for pvp.
We as paladins are weak against : 1 reflect bugs, 2 SW bugs, 3 Burst damage, 4 Piercing dmg.
1 we lost SS so reflect HAMSTER us over
2 SW still not fixed
3 Everyone got more burst dmg
4 TR still has piercing.
Since in pvp i deal 30% dmg with AoC, 20% with BO, 15% from teneb enchant, 10% from mane, 10% frozen reflection and 2-3% from other sources like our tab andpuryfing fire, im left with around 12% dmg. that 12% got increased by 14% so we got 1,6% dmg boost. And faster animations.

Here is TLDR :
- PVE solo, we got more dmg good for new players, animations are faster so it feels better to play 10/10
- PVE group, propably dmg loss, but faster animations and we are still overpowered + buff to devo. nice but doesnt matter.
- PVP legit trash unplayable as prot pally, as devo its propably doable if you abuse all the bugs in the gr8 book of bugs but then you might as well make 11k TR and be on the same level as 17k pally.

majorcharvenak · November 2018

@hastur905. You make some fair points and meant to respond more in depth but got sidetracked but in game and RL. The former I apologize for, the latter...can't do anything about that, I'm afraid. Suffice to say I'm seeing multiple arguments from folks as to where they want the class to go (i.e. More damage or less damage but more personal buffs, more party buffs, more survivability, less heals, less powersharing, less party buffs, less AoC damage, you name it). Perhaps a better start would be to do like you mentioned and remind folks coming to the class of what it is - a support class. Yes, there are builds and circumstances where it can do a good deal of damage but that's not its role and if folks are looking for that...this class might not be the best fit for them. That said, it still needs to have some damage potential to get through the content and contribute in other types of play like PvP.

As I think about it, maybe it would be best to close this particular thread for now and see what the devs have planned in the future with respect to buffs and how they operate (additive vice multiplicative) and see if they fix some of the bugs with other classes wrt PvP. If those issues are addressed or remedied before Mod 16 is announced, then I'll slot aura of life and necro this thread. That way we can have a bit clearer picture of what's in store for the game as a whole, and be better postured to suggest what we would like to see for the class as a whole. My two coppers.

majorcharvenak · November 2018

@kreatyve, @frozenfirevr. Could one of you close this thread please? I'm thinking I'm really jumping the gun and it might be a little early to start a wish-list for next mod so soon after the previous one's release. Plus we don't have a clear idea of what the devs have in store for future class balancing, any changes to buffs, or powersharing, bug fixes, etc. We can pick up this discussion again when we have a clearer picture. Many thanks to both of you for your help and thanks to all who posted.

kreatyve · November 2018

Closed at OP's request.

Oathbound Paladin Class suggestions and changes for Mod 16

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