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[FEEDBACK] Truthful view of 2 overpowered classes in PvP. They needs to be balanced.
dolrey
Member Posts: 741 Arc User
Hello 
Here in this thread I would like to give to developers more detailed feedback about current state of balance in PvP. In this short introduction I would like to say that every experienced PvP player would agree with me that in PvP there are 2 strongest classes who are much stronger than others now. They are GF (guardian fighter conqueror) and TR (trickster rogue). And exactly in this thread I would like to give to developers some ideas how to balance them and how to help to other classes to play against them. I very hope that this information will reach the developers team (cause I spent about 5 hours to write this all 
).
In early modules (before great weapon fighter came to the game) GFs conquerors also were playing role of melee fighter who was focused on taking down targets using his high damage (in many rpg games it is known as warrior or berserk). Now GF conqueror in PvP saved this role and is very successful at that because of the following reasons:
1) GF conqueror with right equipment can have same offensive stats as and classes oriented on dealing damage. What means that he really can play role of damage dealer in PvP (or even in PvE).
2) GF conqueror has really a lot of different damage buffs. I will list part of them to let you understand how strongly GF can increase his damage:
-Encounter power [Into the fray] give +30% damage bonus.
-Last feat of conqueror [Reckless attacker] give +25% damage bonus and +10% crit chance.
-Feat [Powerful attack] increase main source of GF's damage by 10%.
-First feat of tactician [Crushing pin] increases all GF's damage additionally by 10%.
-Passive skill [Shield warrior's wrath] at max rank give +5% damage per each stack. With max number of stacks it give +25% damage.
-Passive skill [Combat superiority] give +8% damage bonus.
-Feytouched enchancement additionaly increase GF's damage by 20%.
-Daily power [Villain's menace] increases GF's damage by 20%.
-Artifact [Wheel of elements] give +30% to Gf's damage.
Possibly I forgot something but still let's sum it all:
30%+25%+10%+10%+25%+8%+20%+20%+30%=178% damage boost (this number should be even a bit higher because some of these bonuses are multiplicative).
I am even not sure that some of classical dps classes can have something like this. Also add here offensive stats like dps classes have and you will get something insane. And let's don't forget that GF is TANK!!!
1) In addition to all his high damage GF conqueror can have more than 20k of defence what with Negation enchantment give much more than 80% cap of damage mitigation.
2) GFs with high item level in PvP have very high health (about 250-300k).
3) GF's shield can absorb 80% of incoming damage and almost all control effects.
4) Feytouched enchancement additionaly decrease damage that GF take by 20%.
5) Also artifact set of Valhalla apply 15% damage debuff on attacker.
As you see even in "full damage" build GF conqueror is still very very tanky.
GF's offensive potential is very high (maybe even too high). It help to GF to kill most part of targets in PvP using his classical combo: [Into the fray]+[Bull charge] (or any other skill with control for initiation)+[Griffon's wrath] (this skill has bug and it can be used up to 4 times even if there are only 3 charges). If you did not dodged first GF's attack then you are already dead (if you are not heavy armored tank of course). Also GF's movement speed is very high thank to [Into the fray] and some other passive skills what make almost impossible to take distance from GF.
In addition to all this playing for example control wizard (CW) you just can't initiate GF because he can safely stay behind his shield blocking your damage and control and waiting for his cooldowns for starting new combo.
I hope that it is clear now that GF conqueror is too strong in PvP now and he needs to be balanced. I am not sure that his damage should be reduced significantly (maybe some of his skills or feats should be tuned a bit) because if GF goes into dealing damage he should deal damage and in my opinion conqueror still should be the highest-dps build of GF. But GFalso should have weaknesses to let other classes play against him.
As decision of this problem I would suggest to tune some of GF's passives and feats to decrease a bit all these multiplicative buffs. I can't tell wich exactly feat or passive should be tuned and how exactly and I think that developers can do this much much better than me. But what is very important here is that GFs conquerors still should have high damage.
To decide the second problem associated with GF's ability to avoid initiation of many classes I would suggest the following:
Add to conqueror's last feat [Reckless attacker] new effect wich with each stack of effect will decrease damage absorption of GF's shield by 4% (20% at max stacks). So after 5 incoming attacks GF conquerror will block only 60% of incoming damage. This change will not let to GF to easily stay behind his shield waiting for his cooldowns and ignoring all mechanics of some other classes. After this change GF will depend much more on his skill and quality of his combo because otherwise after failing his combo he will feel much more harm staying behind his shield and other classes will have opportunity to play against this strong tank.
Here I would like to place some videos showing these two previously described problems. It is not advertising and I don't blame somebody or something like this I just found on youtube some videos showing these mechanics of guardian fighter very well. I mean I have only a "scientific interest" in this.
I would like to ask you to pay attention on two things:
1) How much damage GF deal with his combo. And how very effective it is.
2) If GF fail his combo (or opponent dodge it) then look at how it is impossible for other classes to atack GF who stay behind his shield.
So, this first video shows very well all GF's damage. I play my tanky GF for about 4-5 years and I knew that dd GFs can deal very high damage but I still was surprised and did not expected how insane this damage can be. Yes it is PvE build but still without many words just look at all these numbers.
https://youtu.be/200vPyDMqaQ?t=54
Here is another video which show all strength of GF's "wombo-combo" in PvP. Also pay attention to how GF stay in safety even after fail of his combo or before of its start. Yes, maybe it is not current module and other game platform but to be honest nothing changed and everything is still almost same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAIu8VWxs0E
Here in this thread I would like to give to developers more detailed feedback about current state of balance in PvP. In this short introduction I would like to say that every experienced PvP player would agree with me that in PvP there are 2 strongest classes who are much stronger than others now. They are GF (guardian fighter conqueror) and TR (trickster rogue). And exactly in this thread I would like to give to developers some ideas how to balance them and how to help to other classes to play against them. I very hope that this information will reach the developers team (cause I spent about 5 hours to write this all ).Guardian Fighter (GF)
I. Offensive potential
In early modules (before great weapon fighter came to the game) GFs conquerors also were playing role of melee fighter who was focused on taking down targets using his high damage (in many rpg games it is known as warrior or berserk). Now GF conqueror in PvP saved this role and is very successful at that because of the following reasons:
1) GF conqueror with right equipment can have same offensive stats as and classes oriented on dealing damage. What means that he really can play role of damage dealer in PvP (or even in PvE).
2) GF conqueror has really a lot of different damage buffs. I will list part of them to let you understand how strongly GF can increase his damage:
-Encounter power [Into the fray] give +30% damage bonus.
-Last feat of conqueror [Reckless attacker] give +25% damage bonus and +10% crit chance.
-Feat [Powerful attack] increase main source of GF's damage by 10%.
-First feat of tactician [Crushing pin] increases all GF's damage additionally by 10%.
-Passive skill [Shield warrior's wrath] at max rank give +5% damage per each stack. With max number of stacks it give +25% damage.
-Passive skill [Combat superiority] give +8% damage bonus.
-Feytouched enchancement additionaly increase GF's damage by 20%.
-Daily power [Villain's menace] increases GF's damage by 20%.
-Artifact [Wheel of elements] give +30% to Gf's damage.
Possibly I forgot something but still let's sum it all:
30%+25%+10%+10%+25%+8%+20%+20%+30%=178% damage boost (this number should be even a bit higher because some of these bonuses are multiplicative).
I am even not sure that some of classical dps classes can have something like this. Also add here offensive stats like dps classes have and you will get something insane. And let's don't forget that GF is TANK!!!
II. Defensive potential
1) In addition to all his high damage GF conqueror can have more than 20k of defence what with Negation enchantment give much more than 80% cap of damage mitigation.
2) GFs with high item level in PvP have very high health (about 250-300k).
3) GF's shield can absorb 80% of incoming damage and almost all control effects.
4) Feytouched enchancement additionaly decrease damage that GF take by 20%.
5) Also artifact set of Valhalla apply 15% damage debuff on attacker.
As you see even in "full damage" build GF conqueror is still very very tanky.
III. Conclusion
GF's offensive potential is very high (maybe even too high). It help to GF to kill most part of targets in PvP using his classical combo: [Into the fray]+[Bull charge] (or any other skill with control for initiation)+[Griffon's wrath] (this skill has bug and it can be used up to 4 times even if there are only 3 charges). If you did not dodged first GF's attack then you are already dead (if you are not heavy armored tank of course). Also GF's movement speed is very high thank to [Into the fray] and some other passive skills what make almost impossible to take distance from GF.
In addition to all this playing for example control wizard (CW) you just can't initiate GF because he can safely stay behind his shield blocking your damage and control and waiting for his cooldowns for starting new combo.
I hope that it is clear now that GF conqueror is too strong in PvP now and he needs to be balanced. I am not sure that his damage should be reduced significantly (maybe some of his skills or feats should be tuned a bit) because if GF goes into dealing damage he should deal damage and in my opinion conqueror still should be the highest-dps build of GF. But GFalso should have weaknesses to let other classes play against him.
IV. Decision
As decision of this problem I would suggest to tune some of GF's passives and feats to decrease a bit all these multiplicative buffs. I can't tell wich exactly feat or passive should be tuned and how exactly and I think that developers can do this much much better than me. But what is very important here is that GFs conquerors still should have high damage.
To decide the second problem associated with GF's ability to avoid initiation of many classes I would suggest the following:
Add to conqueror's last feat [Reckless attacker] new effect wich with each stack of effect will decrease damage absorption of GF's shield by 4% (20% at max stacks). So after 5 incoming attacks GF conquerror will block only 60% of incoming damage. This change will not let to GF to easily stay behind his shield waiting for his cooldowns and ignoring all mechanics of some other classes. After this change GF will depend much more on his skill and quality of his combo because otherwise after failing his combo he will feel much more harm staying behind his shield and other classes will have opportunity to play against this strong tank.
V. Examples
Here I would like to place some videos showing these two previously described problems. It is not advertising and I don't blame somebody or something like this I just found on youtube some videos showing these mechanics of guardian fighter very well. I mean I have only a "scientific interest" in this.
I would like to ask you to pay attention on two things:
1) How much damage GF deal with his combo. And how very effective it is.
2) If GF fail his combo (or opponent dodge it) then look at how it is impossible for other classes to atack GF who stay behind his shield.
So, this first video shows very well all GF's damage. I play my tanky GF for about 4-5 years and I knew that dd GFs can deal very high damage but I still was surprised and did not expected how insane this damage can be. Yes it is PvE build but still without many words just look at all these numbers.
https://youtu.be/200vPyDMqaQ?t=54Here is another video which show all strength of GF's "wombo-combo" in PvP. Also pay attention to how GF stay in safety even after fail of his combo or before of its start. Yes, maybe it is not current module and other game platform but to be honest nothing changed and everything is still almost same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAIu8VWxs0E
Post edited by dolrey on
4
Comments
Dead🔪Do you think sm and iv are balanced ? and if not what separates them ? how do they fare for all modes of the game and this doesn't just include pvp?
what necessary changes would you recommend for both paragons ?
do you feel gf and gwf should be totally separated by all means even though our asses are glued together and share paragons ?
Do you think all all paragons from a gf pov are balanced ?
Do you think the rules of engagement and the requirements for pvp (which is very general) are fair to all paragons to all paths ?
This is not an insulting post and knowing you, i want to know how you would change the guardian fighter for the better irrespective of all classes
Issue 1. ( shadow of demise) can be stopped by.
A. Shadowclad armor enchantment
B. Walking behind a solid object out of view of tr
C. Any ring that grants invisibility.
D. Bloodbath
Issue 2. ( invisibility class feature ) can be stopped by.
A. High mobility and target lock
B. Ring that exposes invisible players for 10 seconds every 30 seconds.
C. Marking the tr with skills/encounters
Plus the invisibility does not last as long as you stated while in combat or with dot or damage being done to us.
D. Artifact that exposes invisible players once every 60 seconds.
If the tr is attacking you from stealth they will show up within a few seconds, so be honest.
There are more ways to solve the issues you stated about tr, I only listed a few.
How about items are put in game to give tr the class features of others eh? Stop the tr hate.
There are good cw, hr, gf, gwf even DC that can kill tr in pvp with ease.
Issue 3. Impossible to catch does not last 7 seconds it last maybe 4 seconds.
There is also an obvious dark hue around our character when cast. So of you use cc skills during that it's like crying you can hurt a gf when he's behind a wall... wait until it ends... tr are squishy.
It includes "all damage done to any source" to the target.
Hence, if you initiate SoD on "A", but then deal X damage to "B", 75% of X will be done to A.
I will put a report on feedback/bugs about this.
If not cryptic presents some drastic improvements to tone down stat inflation/powercreep and bugs by disabling broken/overperforming setboni and rings, ban mounts, disable Insigniaboni, maybe SH boons, glyphs and balance classes, this is nothing any PVP orientated player wants to experience. I´d say 99% of all decent PVP player left PVP allready on PC.
Anyway, who wants to face 24/7 a "negative selection" of skilless player, using broken gear on top of broken classes, running glyphs , switching to fotm classes, defending broken HAMSTER in every single discussion on the forum? That´s low-fun honestly
Either they equalize, fix an balance this poor experience of PVP or they simply should delete it, since only 0,0001% takes part !
> Players have ways to defend against all of tr issues you stated...
>
>
>
> Issue 1. ( shadow of demise) can be stopped by.
>
>
>
> A. Shadowclad armor enchantment
>
> B. Walking behind a solid object out of view of tr
>
> C. Any ring that grants invisibility.
>
> D. Bloodbath
>
>
>
> Issue 2. ( invisibility class feature ) can be stopped by.
>
>
>
> A. High mobility and target lock
>
> B. Ring that exposes invisible players for 10 seconds every 30 seconds.
>
> C. Marking the tr with skills/encounters
>
> Plus the invisibility does not last as long as you stated while in combat or with dot or damage being done to us.
>
> D. Artifact that exposes invisible players once every 60 seconds.
>
> If the tr is attacking you from stealth they will show up within a few seconds, so be honest.
>
>
>
> There are more ways to solve the issues you stated about tr, I only listed a few.
>
>
>
> How about items are put in game to give tr the class features of others eh? Stop the tr hate.
>
>
>
> There are good cw, hr, gf, gwf even DC that can kill tr in pvp with ease.
>
>
>
> Issue 3. Impossible to catch does not last 7 seconds it last maybe 4 seconds.
>
> There is also an obvious dark hue around our character when cast. So of you use cc skills during that it's like crying you can hurt a gf when he's behind a wall... wait until it ends... tr are squishy.
>
> Well, yes you are right there are some features which can help against TR's SoD and some of his mechanics (also I would add that unfortunately they help ONLY against TR's SoD and some of his mechanics so you can't use it as your main build for PvP 5v5). In addition to this what TR should do and what for example GWF should do in 1v1? Do you really think that they both are in same conditions in 1v1? I don't think so.. TR just have to use all his skills as usual while GWF should tryhard (even with all these features if it is not real PvP 5v5) and he will die after his first mistake. Is it what we call balance?
>
> Now in every fight 1v1 TR play from position of high strength. And the fact that many players just do not play PvP thank to "balanced" TRs is true too. So.. I just have nothing to say to players who think that TRs are balanced and CW SW HR and GWF really have chances and enjoy playing against them.
>
> Also you always can create every class not from the current PvP meta and enjoy all the delights of the current TR's balance on yourself. On behalf of all CWs SWs GWFs and HRs (even if I do not play for these classes) I sincerely wish you every success in this pleasant business.
My main ring for pve and pvp is ring of vision +5
We all have to enyjoy PVP by runnning with a shadowclad, a lantern, casting spells from behind a pillar or run away by counting till 6 and somehow wear rings that spends invisibility... sounds like fun... but I can´t remember how to mark with my actual class.
What once was a known troll in the PVP-forum becomes a respected member if every honorable PVP player left.
Yesterday I searched for acitve PVP instances on PC, nothing , later i found one active instance. Looking up the player inside Holtenow I saw a TR with AP and stamina drains, a manticore mane and broken funny rings among PVE dressed player some wearing green stuff, that´s spirit !
Honestly cryptic should rethink their concept of creating new broken HAMSTER every mod , we don´t need those "gimmicks" that ruin everyones experience.
They lost the hole PVP playerbase on PC, nothing left, PVP is a place you even don´t think about any more due to broken classe, broken power, broken toys, trolls, drains etc.
Dead🔪The linkage between what you call early modules doesnt give a sense, there has been so many changes to all the classes and the GF has completly revamped feats since then so it is funny to link it, especially since it was not in early modules but in alpha, only in alpha there were 3 clasess, in beta there were already all original classes - and that was before launch of the first mod.
Now the dmg bonuses... you got these completly messed up, there is also a debuf, you cant mix debuffs and buffs like that, they are 2 different things. WoE:Fire is not a buff at all, its just an aditional hit. Why are you mentioning Feytouched, it is available to all classes, not GF only. Also, buffs are multiplicative, not additive, so why you are adding them up?
Jus for the record, do you know the buffs of a GWF? Look here: Hidden daggers: 40%; Battle Fury: 25%; WD: 12-25%; Destroyer feature: 46,5%; Destroyers purpose: 50%. And im not even mentioning Disciple of strength, Mighty Blade, Powerfull Challenge....
What you also forget to mention is that if GF in PvP is equipped for all out dmg, then he will be super squishy and it takes only 1 for example a CW to catch him with a shield down and the GF is over. This is considering the CW is also geared well and knows how to play.
On the other hand if the GF has 20k defense (20k deflect would be better) and 300k HP, then he is no way going to oneshot anyone with semi decent gear.
The videos you posted have 0 relevance, PvP one is a geared GF killing pugs, you can see anyone kill 5k pugs like that.
The other video shows just as 0 relevance to GF nerf thread as the PvP one, what you show there is a ToNG Orcus 1 phase, what you need to realize is that every dps class can onephase Orcus, if you dont believe it search youtube. That is due to the fact that the most OP classes in PvE are suports, look at AA share through bondings for example, but... thats a different discussion.
For the last words i choose to say that yes GF is very strong class in both PvE and PvP, but other than nerfing the one path that isnt completly shallow, we could use a rework of Protector and Tactician as it offers close to nothing, and we will start seeing much more people who arent Conquerors.
Sorry, but your lenghty thread doesnt adress the real issues.
PS: some things you wrote there are bugged and give different values than you stated.
Speaking of PvP, have you looked at first pages of LB sorted by kills, GFs are minority, because if you spec for pure dmg you will be squishy as hell, and as a tank you wont kill equally geared opponent in a single rotation unless the opponent is a pug. Conq unique feats doesnt grant nowhere near 50% dmg, unique to Conq are only RA and buff to KC,GW. Wrathfull is T2 feat so available to all. Rest is jsut features and gear.
The shield is only "problem" in PvP, and thats just for newbies, exped players can get behind it relatively easily, there are ways. In PvE everybody is a tank due to SD, shield is not even needed.
So, you are from RU server then?
The original point of my reply was however - if you want to make a discussion about balancing classes, then dont mix things up that are completly unrelated, like that WoE:Fire...
Btw, when does TR do a mistake, when he is immune in BB or when he is imune in ITC?
I wish that his thread creator would think how the changes he asking for, would impacy TR and GF in pve.
But nah.... its better not to see the other side of that coin, isnt it?
You guys keep forgeting that every class here operate in PVE and PVP at the same time. So every change for PVP resons can ruin PVE side and the oposite. More changes you ask is in fact asking for full class rework. Keep that in mind before you start arguing.
And lets be honest here - PVP in this game is pretty much dead.
And its not because TRs and GFs are overpowered or there are new items impacting it heavy.
Its years of indolence of the devs, or to be more precise of their short sighted approach.
Every new MOD bringed more and more powercreep, new mechanic(items) and so on.
And they decided to focus their limited resources on keeping PVP side playable on a decent level while they abandoned PVP side. Time was passing on, and changes went too far to be dealt with a simple patch or adjustment.
BTW - A GF is a good example here - those skills you highlghted here was always here. Yup - form the very beggining.
BUT there was expectation a GF to be a ITF spammng machine. Besides who could really afford his time/AD to switch form tanking to dps back and forth. Costly and time consuming. Having 2 toons with different paragons paths - even more expensive and so on. Loadouts and new items - that was a breaking point for GFs and few other classes. Just one click and voila!
Its a change of environment not the class put them whre they are now.
So now PVP is a mess where it is simply impossible to make any balance withour ruining PVE side.
And since PVP population is so small and lets be honest irrelewant its waisted effort.
So we are long after a point where few simple adjustments could fix imbalance.
And I think we cant count that to change....ever.
It's a team based game. The class balance shouldn't strive to make every 1v1 scenario equal. It should only strive to make sure having a class in one team doesn't provide an irrecoverable advantage compared to another. If you look at the PC leaderboards now since the Bull Charge nerf, there are as many SWs and CWs on the first page as GFs, and those GFs are basically at the point where they have the best possible gear for their builds.
Look at TR in comparison: Basically anyone who gets a snail and some recovery gear can manage to tip the balance of two teams in their favor. Half of the first page is TRs.
BTW, PvP and PvE powers,feats and items could (or should rather) be separated, adjusted functioning for PvP of many things is needed to make it a competitive enviroment.
But what is also dreadfully needed is to "enrich" PvP experience as a whole, now it is pretty much just a barebone 5v5 domination with 2 maps since mod0. Update campaign, rewards, NCLs etc...
You can read some ideas in this thread: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1238432/req-team-competitive-queue-for-domination-details
But i feel like beating a dead horse since i know a PvP mod will never happen, so all this discussing is vain, completly vain.