Issue with Illusionist's Gambit/Mad wizard que'ings

wylonus · February 2018

some players often announced little late when they wants bronze and some want to go all the way.

there is a problem, not fair for getting a rude surprise when they announce "just bronze please" as soon the match made.

offering an idea, make 2 zone copies, Bronze runs and Master Runs. just to warn players if they que for master run, they must run whole skirmish. "too bad" because you choose master run instead of bronze run. no form of griefings allowed. it isnt design to be "afk".

was this idea seem okay or potential for exploits? explain yes or nay?

plasticbat · February 2018

If there are 2 runs, you can't control which one RQ will pick.
If you queue direct to IG (and not RQ), the chance is you want gold but you can't control the type of RQ players. The issue is RQ player who happens to drop into your IG gold queue.

wylonus · February 2018

that reason why, we need 2 zone copies, bronze runners are warned if they play and que into master run, they cant back out or consider as griefer, must run whole challenges until end of play.

Need to add new rule for penality regardless if having real life issue just happen last minutes, if just wanted bronze during master runs, they get 24 hr on cooldown to prevent them repeating another griefings.

no one who join for gold/master run want to get interupted and forced to run again.

then again, those bronze runners wouldnt want to get penalized when they want to "farm", so they have choices, pick bronze runs or put up with full runs until end, if not follow up, and get themselves blocked for a day.
no excuses for disconnected if happens. it could be a ploy to get off as if they dont want to play. we have to watch out for those who "intentaully" die on fights to cause early round closings for failed run.
i seen it happened as someone kept begging for bronze as 4 of players want go more, and wasnt put up a fight as other gave up rezzing "unwanted" partipicating player.
Later as i check, on first round, that player outperform all four of us, and then nothing but dying and do nothing.
made us work hard and surviving just as hard to keep up until the end.

plasticbat · February 2018

If you are in RQ, you cannot choose which one.

If you are not doing RQ, why do you choose to run IG? There is only one reason, you want Gold.
If you are bronze runner for AD, it means you want to run RQ and you cannot choose what the RQ will pick. They don't want to run IG at all. They want Dread Ring if they can choose.

How would two different runs work?
The easier way is to take IG out from RQ. There will be no bronze runner (for AD).

greywynd · February 2018

If I end up in IG, depending on which character I'm on and my mood, if we do Bronze and I vote to leave and the vote swings to stay, I'm liable to just take the leaver penalty and go.

namelesshero347 · February 2018

The solution is so simple. Gold runners pre-make a group and go to town on gold. They are in complete control of the process to ensure full participation. RQ players have no control when they drop into IG. IMO, only fleece runners should be solo queuing IG.

And why is it that it is the bronze runners that are griefers when it is the gold runners who are the aggressors forcing other people to stay? I always vote leave, and afk if I am forced to stay. The way I see it, gold runners have a right to go for gold, and bronze runners have the right to wait for their AD. I make no exceptions because there are lots of shady people queuing with less than a full group, effectively drafting two other RQ players for their gold run.

Another annoying thing is when you die, you don't always stay dead. You get automatically brought back to the arena after certain waves. I got so sick of my DC always getting kidnapped and used for gold that I got her an extra loadout slot and left it blank. I switch to blank loadout after dying so I don't have to worry about giving my captors undeserving buffs.

Unknown · February 2018

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namelesshero347 · February 2018

Another solution to the, "I came from RQ, don't mind gold, but how do I vote?" dilemma is to wait a bit before you vote. Usually the players who really want bronze will be the first ones to vote. If after say 10 seconds and there are no "leave" votes, then feel free to vote for gold.

When IG first came out, it was hard. And voting was a way to get out if a party does not think it can do gold. With the power creep, pretty much any random pug group can do gold. The question now is how long does it take? Could be 10 minutes for all-HDPS group or 30+ minutes for all-low-iLvl group. Voting has become an expression of how much time one wants to commit. It's pretty disrespectful when someone pleas for bronze and still get sucked into gold.

rafaelda · February 2018

The only way to get Gold (or Bronze) runs for sure is to Form your queue group for that,
since you can vote and there are 5 person you need to live the democracy when it starts...

soo, if you dont want to live in a really small and unpredictable democracy for your party man...
i dont think they need to create another instance for us to avoid other people choices...

PS. Got carried for both sides, did bronze when wanted to runs gold, and also got "forced" to gold runs with weak partys (back then now is really easy) when i was planning on farm mirage, thats life it happens...

plasticbat · February 2018

To do Gold in IG, making a private group to do private queue. You don't even need 5 players (if you don't want to wait). 3 13K players is enough. Of course, more will be faster.

ecrana · February 2018

This is another case of can't please everyone at the same time. And both camps are in the wrong here. The bronze runners that get ticked when they have to stay and AFK are being selfish. The gold runners that have a 3-2 edge in voting and drag bronzers along are being selfish.

One solution is if even one person votes no than the group should either be disbanded or the no-vote gets to leave and another person is allowed to join. The new player reaps the full rewards of bronze and however far the group gets.

Another solution is to get rid of one of the most ill-thought out systems the game has ever instituted since it is the cause of the entire problem. (I'm talking about RQs)

Another is to just stop being selfish on both sides. It's a game. You know IG is in random skirm. Don't queue random skirm. Better yet stop supporting RQs altogether. Or run the content you signed up for when you went into the skirm RQ.

If i get thrown in MSP I leave if I don't want to do it. I take the penalty. If I get IG, I look at the group and see if it looks like we could do it quickly. If not I leave. I don't demand a bronze run or I'll go AFK. I hit vote to leave when it's time and if I lose out than so be it. I took the chance when I stayed from the get go.

The vote issue isn't a new one. The vote made some sense at that point but it was still the same issue. Some people only wanted fleece, others wanted to go for better IG gear. People would get stuck when they wanted to leave, people would get angry when a run got cut short. The RQ's and penalties have just exacerbated the problem.

namelesshero347 · February 2018

ecrana#2080 said:

Another is to just stop being selfish on both sides. It's a game. You know IG is in random skirm. Don't queue random skirm. Better yet stop supporting RQs altogether. Or run the content you signed up for when you went into the skirm RQ.

Unless the AD from the weeklies are all you need, then don't think this is an option to skip RQ.

ecrana#2080 said:

The vote issue isn't a new one. The vote made some sense at that point but it was still the same issue. Some people only wanted fleece, others wanted to go for better IG gear. People would get stuck when they wanted to leave, people would get angry when a run got cut short. The RQ's and penalties have just exacerbated the problem.

Back when I was running IG for fleece, there was no penalty. So I would leave the gold run and try again immediately. Now with the penalty, I don't think it makes as much sense to leave and take the penalty. You have to wait 30 minutes to try again. Then you risk getting POM, ToDG, or another IG gold run. Most undermanned gold runs will finish before the penalty expires. Weak groups would wipe much faster. Waiting for you AD makes more sense.

I think the good middle ground is everyone do whatever they want. Bronze runners afk and wait for their AD. Its just another risk of using RQ. There isn't much they can do about it. Gold runners risk no participation and higher chances of wipe. That is the price for not pre-making a group.

wylonus · February 2018

i had seen it few times, when other "bronze runner", want some of us to leave, and just to find out they brought in guildmates in for rest of the runs, yes i agreed with Nameless. it is shady ploy.

then other players said, use guild or best friends to que, problem is, not all guildmates are on or made any interested like it was "ancient ghost town" ques.

so i dont have choice, join pug and pray for full run, and hope to get right correct gears for my companions it needs. those take forever to get what you need.

nolgroth1972 · February 2018

I always vote LEAVE but am prepared to stay if the overall vote is STAY. I don't get mad at the other players but I do get angry at some of the hazards. If the hazards are such that I am deprived of using my abilities that I have been grinding for weeks to get (the chicken polymorph) or for some reason I start taking massive damage with no apparent cause, I might afk for a minute or three to regain my composure. I try to give it my best even if I would rather be running one of my other alts through a skirmish instead.

Unknown · February 2018

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namelesshero347 · February 2018

tiberiusrex#6660 said:

if the majority vote stay it isn't selfish. it's playing the game as it's intended. if you random q you are agreeing to play whatever you get for the money. it's selfish to assume you're going to get a 2 minute run. it IS selfish to just say i didn't get a 2 minute run i'm going to not play. I'm gonna leech. or I'm going to go to a different build that won't even buff anyone. the solution really is to take this out of rq. let the people who want to be there be there.

Gold runners assuming RQ players are willing to make the same time commitment is also selfish. Three minutes vs 15+ minutes for gold is pretty huge difference for an RQ player. Even PoM and ToDG can be finished in less time.

Ultimately, in PUGs, every player looks out for themselves. I have no problem with afking after bronze. I don't consider that leeching because the chance of a wipe increases with non-participation and there is no loot to leech after a wipe. Most players understand this and don't say anything. To the few players that still call me "leech", at the end of the run I post a +4 gear to chat to make it look like I just got it. I'm sure it eats at them that I got coveted prize and they didn't. If they genuinely believe I was leeching, then hopefully, they will think twice before voting gold again. Or at the very least, they intentionally wipe themselves to finish the run when they see a "leecher". It is sad I have to take such actions to try to discourage people from forcing others to do their gold runs.

wylonus · February 2018

ESO had successful group event or running a dungeon with mixed level groups, rewards are scale to your levels for characters you played. any CTA events are not even close, they give flat base rewards no matter what level for characters, rewards are junk for maxed level characters.

we need 2 versions, Classic CTA and newer version copy for "Expert" or "Hardcore" mode CTA with requirements to prevent low end to jump in and expect others to carry them.
even Star Trek's 2 versions are successful for normal and elite runs, and i dont see it in NWO yet.

devs would had done for 2 copies before released, and the devs didnt expected players' play style they prefer. it seem it was only way for players to earn since devs nerfed too much since Most hated Mod 6, seeing too many features added and then pull back some contents that wasnt intended in first place.

dafrca · February 2018

ecrana#2080 said:
Another solution is to get rid of one of the most ill-thought out systems the game has ever instituted since it is the cause of the entire problem. (I'm talking about RQs)

I know it will never happen, but I had to quote it because it is the solution I have felt is best for many of the issues that have gotten so bad sense the intro of RQ.

Let folks get the AD when they private queue.

wylonus · February 2018

as Nameless said and i agreed, those in PE can form thier own groups for bronze runs and dont expect to make others to give up gold runs in random groups. it is a form of griefing.

ecrana · February 2018

wylonus said:
as Nameless said and i agreed, those in PE can form thier own groups for bronze runs and dont expect to make others to give up gold runs in random groups. it is a form of griefing.

You can beat this argument to death and all anyone has to respond with is "Gold runners can form their own groups in PE and not expect people to vote yes."

The only winning solution is to remove it. Anything else just angers one sector of your players and makes IG a toxic experience.

I'm not on either side because I think the whole system is just flawed.

If i happen to RQ and land in here, I stay if I have time to run the whole way to gold, i leave if I'm in a rush. But I know the risk if I stay is to get stuck. I don't believe in AFKing if I get outvoted. I always vote to leave and hope (pray, make offerings to god, etc) to see 2 more No's. But I won't act like a child if I get stuck in a Gold run. I still want out as fast as possible so I don't care if I have to carry a team all the way through.

plasticbat · February 2018

If one really wants to farm IG gold, one should form a private gold party to private queue IG.
This is the most productive for the person who wants to farm IG gold.
Why?
1. you make sure you have a party that can do gold successfully. You are farming, right? You want to be successful, right? You don't really want to take the chance, right?
2. you make sure there is no bronze runner. You don't want anyone to vote no or sitting on the camp fire, right?
3. you can run this party for N times. You are farming, right? Once is not that useful, right?

wylonus · February 2018

perfectbat, right on.
that give me options to have choice if i have short time or go long for best gear drops.
some group can be unpredictable due to low skills or poorly equiped group can get wipes or fight too long.

getting group up before que really make sense, not easy to find right players when guildmates are sleeping or unavailable.

plasticbat · February 2018

wylonus said:
perfectbat, right on.
that give me options to have choice if i have short time or go long for best gear drops.
some group can be unpredictable due to low skills or poorly equiped group can get wipes or fight too long.

getting group up before que really make sense, not easy to find right players when guildmates are sleeping or unavailable.

The beauty is you don't have to have 5 to do IG gold. 3 13K would be enough. My 13K characters could solo it before mod 12b.

sgaddis13 · February 2018

I agree that IG should be removed from the random queue or some other "fix" needs to be created. As it stands, I've seen too many hurt feelings on both sides. Asking what the other people want to do first doesn't always help. I was in one last night with a 4 to 1 leave vote and the person who voted to stay was..... very vocal with his displeasure. I've also been in one where we had no heals, several people were low IL, and players pushed forward towards gold even after it was agreed that it was nearly impossible. That one ended bloody (and at silver.)

Basically, you have two completely different groups queuing for the same content, and both are right to be unhappy with the other. While in theory a compromise could be reached, that will never actually be the case due to human nature. One group will always want a quick AD run while saying "you should have formed a private group if you want to spend time in this skirmish" and another group will always say "I should never be *expected* to form a group. That is what queues are for. So people without groups can automatically be placed. You should want to finish the content you started." Both are correct, even though both will argue that the other group is wrong. It's all a matter of opinion, and it causes conflict in the game. And on the forums, apparently.

And before anyone bites my head off, I didn't say one view was wrong. I would very much appreciate skipping the "let me tell you why you are hideously, insanely wrong, you hamster loving mother of a hamster" posts.

Issue with Illusionist's Gambit/Mad wizard que'ings

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