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Problems with non rainbow Q systems.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
I've said it time and time again. Rainbow Q must be enforced. It's so simple, it's so ultimately frustrating that the only people who typically disagree are the flavor of the month classes. Allow me now to lay down my points:
Reasons for allowing stacking of a class:
1)Friends who play the same class may want to Q for PVP together.
2)Easier to fill Q's with players, shorter Q wait times.
Reasons why allowing stacking of a class is bad:
1)Class imbalance causes stacking of clearers
2)Class imbalance causes stacking of controllers
3)Groups can stack a team with all the strongest classes (this mod i.e. 2 TR, 2 GF, OP (or HR or healer)
4)It decreases diversity in matches
5)It moots some classes out (i.e. GWF vs TR this mod means either CB and SB to moot run speed, or SoD death imminent).
6)It no longer matters who plays their class better because there is no check and balance systems.
7)It decreases entertainment from the matches even if matched item level
8)It’s ultimately frustrating for classes that are less powerful in a mod (i.e. SW, GWF, CW this mod).
I've made multiple posts to this effect and am reminded daily when I run across a premade of the most OP classes how unfun and imbalanced it is. When Mod 12B hits I predict that Domi Q will be abandoned mostly because players would rather Solo Q and get their rewards. Premades that occur in Private Q will continue but they have little incentive besides the fun of a match that can be set up. Most matches that occur will be between friendly guilds/alliances that align themselves more with fun than toxicity with each other.
Now Solo Q will still have the massive imbalance of a blind Q system. Literally a system that sees only your "rank" on a leader board that poorly reflects many aspects. No item level, no class checks, nothing.
I would challenge the devs to come and watch PVP matches with 2 TRs on one team and none on the other. It's a guaranteed loss. Add to that 2 TRs and 2 GFs on one team and it's a slaughter fest. Throw on a pally for kicks and you might as well wait at the campfire even if equal geared and skilled.
Now you can attempt to fix the balance issues which is very important and should be priority number one. However, that is time consuming and difficult, if not impossible, to attain perfect balance. OR you could force rainbow Q's while working through the longer goal of class balances. One single step and all the classes are relevant again. One single bit of added code and matches become less about comp and more about using each classes strong suit to accomplish your goal.
I can't tell you the amount of times I've gone into matches that are even SOLO Q and there are 2 TRs and perhaps even 2 GFs on one team, the other team is comprised of SW, GWF, CW, DC, and HR. It's immediately a loss.
Please devs, hear me, this destroys PVP. Equally as tenacity did. A few mods back the complaint was about 5 TRs trolling together, before that 5 GWFs in mod 3. Arbitrarily you guys partially listened and decreased it to 2. Well, it's not enough. 2 TRs is enough to throw a match. If you don't believe me I challenge you to fight an equally geared troll comp and see what happens.
Devs, you guys did a fantastic job with putting tenacity as a flat bonus, leveling the tenacity gear gap between PVE and PVP players. Great job! Now, fix the second worse problem in PVP. Troll comps, intentional or otherwise. Solo Q and Open Domi should force the players in Q into rainbow groups or not allow Premades to join open Domi wth more than 1 of each class. The ONLY place it should be allowed is GG, SH siege, and Private Q Domi. This way you are choosing to go in against multiple of a class or agreeing to fight a troll comped premade. If you make this change, it will bring a certain balance by default because both teams will potentially have FoTM OP imbalanced classes, thus forcing a form of balance in comp.
IMHO, the only players who would disagree with this are either the FoTM classes, those who run with troll comps including FoTM classes, or friends who play the same class together. However, for the overall state of healthy PVP, it's a change that MUST take place.
@sgrantdev @rgutscheradev
Reasons for allowing stacking of a class:
1)Friends who play the same class may want to Q for PVP together.
2)Easier to fill Q's with players, shorter Q wait times.
Reasons why allowing stacking of a class is bad:
1)Class imbalance causes stacking of clearers
2)Class imbalance causes stacking of controllers
3)Groups can stack a team with all the strongest classes (this mod i.e. 2 TR, 2 GF, OP (or HR or healer)
4)It decreases diversity in matches
5)It moots some classes out (i.e. GWF vs TR this mod means either CB and SB to moot run speed, or SoD death imminent).
6)It no longer matters who plays their class better because there is no check and balance systems.
7)It decreases entertainment from the matches even if matched item level
8)It’s ultimately frustrating for classes that are less powerful in a mod (i.e. SW, GWF, CW this mod).
I've made multiple posts to this effect and am reminded daily when I run across a premade of the most OP classes how unfun and imbalanced it is. When Mod 12B hits I predict that Domi Q will be abandoned mostly because players would rather Solo Q and get their rewards. Premades that occur in Private Q will continue but they have little incentive besides the fun of a match that can be set up. Most matches that occur will be between friendly guilds/alliances that align themselves more with fun than toxicity with each other.
Now Solo Q will still have the massive imbalance of a blind Q system. Literally a system that sees only your "rank" on a leader board that poorly reflects many aspects. No item level, no class checks, nothing.
I would challenge the devs to come and watch PVP matches with 2 TRs on one team and none on the other. It's a guaranteed loss. Add to that 2 TRs and 2 GFs on one team and it's a slaughter fest. Throw on a pally for kicks and you might as well wait at the campfire even if equal geared and skilled.
Now you can attempt to fix the balance issues which is very important and should be priority number one. However, that is time consuming and difficult, if not impossible, to attain perfect balance. OR you could force rainbow Q's while working through the longer goal of class balances. One single step and all the classes are relevant again. One single bit of added code and matches become less about comp and more about using each classes strong suit to accomplish your goal.
I can't tell you the amount of times I've gone into matches that are even SOLO Q and there are 2 TRs and perhaps even 2 GFs on one team, the other team is comprised of SW, GWF, CW, DC, and HR. It's immediately a loss.
Please devs, hear me, this destroys PVP. Equally as tenacity did. A few mods back the complaint was about 5 TRs trolling together, before that 5 GWFs in mod 3. Arbitrarily you guys partially listened and decreased it to 2. Well, it's not enough. 2 TRs is enough to throw a match. If you don't believe me I challenge you to fight an equally geared troll comp and see what happens.
Devs, you guys did a fantastic job with putting tenacity as a flat bonus, leveling the tenacity gear gap between PVE and PVP players. Great job! Now, fix the second worse problem in PVP. Troll comps, intentional or otherwise. Solo Q and Open Domi should force the players in Q into rainbow groups or not allow Premades to join open Domi wth more than 1 of each class. The ONLY place it should be allowed is GG, SH siege, and Private Q Domi. This way you are choosing to go in against multiple of a class or agreeing to fight a troll comped premade. If you make this change, it will bring a certain balance by default because both teams will potentially have FoTM OP imbalanced classes, thus forcing a form of balance in comp.
IMHO, the only players who would disagree with this are either the FoTM classes, those who run with troll comps including FoTM classes, or friends who play the same class together. However, for the overall state of healthy PVP, it's a change that MUST take place.
@sgrantdev @rgutscheradev
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
12
Comments
I wholeheartedly agree that a forced rainbow would make PvP a lot better, doesn't matter which class is the "flavor of the month" at that point.
With all that being said think 12b pvp is going to be rough even with solo que and tenacity going on character. The overall increase to damage and self heal nerfs will cause all classes with 1 exception to die more . Healing depression going to 75% , yeah that is going to encourage people to play a healer . Will be interesting to watch this unfold .
If SoloQ is permanent or not. I don't feel the sync can be 'coded' out. Think about it.
What if there were iL gates??? I have mentioned it numerous times. We all reach 70 but, I knew when I queued for the first time I would get smashed and I did queue to experience it. So, I had my offense stats loaded but greatly lacked defense stats. It was very obvious what I needed to do.
So now that I have the stats, I am looking back at when I first queued as a fresh 70 and I had a blast then as I do now, but wish I was playing with peers for the close intense battles. Nothing better than a few or more lead changes and the numerous callouts on the MIC.
To prevent PUG smashing and leaderboard stuffing, an iL gate should be implemented. We currently have fewer players in PvP so implementing a iL filter will change nothing. A group of five near BiS should not be allowed to smash a group of fresh 70s. If I want to mingle with lower iLs, I will need to slot appropriately. I know many queue to get the daily prize but possibly, if the fight is closer to fair, a few may continue with PvP.
I never understood the allure to build a character and upon reaching 60 slotting r12 enchants. I can’t imagine what anyone new felt when exploring 60s PvP and a seasoned player is there preying on them.
I don’t PvP much because it gets boring playing the same toons over and over. At times, it seems there are not more than 10, 20-30 in the queue. There are only 200’ish leaderboard pages when there was once ten times that.
Anyway, time to head home and farm for trophies that barely drop…
This means you constantly have players in PVP that hate PVP, dont know what theyre doing and are only there in the hope they land in decent group, get their win and be done with PVP for the day.
Id hold myself up as an example of this, as a 16k il OP id be deemed as a strong player in a random queue, but in truth i dont have a PVP build, im completely clueless on how to play PVP and have no desire to learn.
Stop forcing people who dont want to be there into PVP to boost numbers, and allow the PVP players to enjoy more even matches as a result.
Point remains forcing people who dont want to be in pvp, and bid is still pvp, who dont want to be there causes team imbalance and loads of ill will.
Apologies to tolkienbuff whos original post was excellent.
Having two of any class in PvP per team allows the stacking of classes that outperform which makes players not want to play PvP. Without the forced "Rainbow" the PvP scene will disappear, this will make a lot of players swear it off and never give it a chance again.
This should also be done in Solo-Que.
This would make playing all the classes important, not just 2 - 4 of them.
It's really important that the main point be made and discussed. A way to get closer to balance in PVP is by maintaining non stacked or rainbow styled comps. In both regular Domi and Solo Q this should be a requirement to make matches more fun for everybody and not just the OP class of a particular mod.
Thanks.
did you know that half of the games revenues used to come from people being "forced to pvp "
no one said team were balanced that is the problem th eOp stated at the beginning of the thread
black ice dom is not real pvp it is also dead it is essentially a concorer shard hand out for people who cant /wont /dont wanna pvp
you and your guildies can afk farm next mod in stronghold pvp to get your weekly free blood ruby ..oh wait you wont cause you dont like pvp .. or you will according to the devs for the rewards
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Yesterday's solo PvP was interesting. Many of the matches could have benefited from a rainbow queue but was eclipsed by a bigger issue.
If I understand correctly what I was messaged by one of the devs the first problem with imbalance in gear/skill in matches is the amount of people playing.
The ELO system only works with large numbers and several matches to start placing people in brackets according to their standings and this should include skill/gear (it doesn't actually account for gear but by default players who are more geared have an advantage and will likely have a higher ELO). When next mod hits if enough players decide to try it again, within several matches they should start matching against players of relatively equal ELO (If I'm mistaken here devs, please chime in). Which will result in more competitive and fun matches. This, I'm told, should work in both Solo and regular Domi Q.
Tenacity being equalized it means we have the potential to have some really good, fun, relatively balanced matches... if not for a blaring issue, imbalance in team comp.
As we've been saying here, if you have a team of 14K IL and I have a team of 14K IL and we're equal skill, it boils down to who has the better comp. If you have 2 TRs and I have 1 or none, we've likely already lost. If you have 2 GFs and 2 TRs... I'll bide my time at the campfire after the immediate death I'll receive at mid.
I just hope that the devs read this and respond or listen, I am 100% sure this will result in improved competition in matches and a more entertaining experience. I would also add NOW is the time to incorporate it with mod 12B so that new players to PVP don't go into a match and get SB, CB, SoD by 2 TRs or BC'd then Griffoned down immediately and then throw their hands up and say "nothing's changed, I survived 1 hit instead of none but still can't do anything".
The chaotic nature in how PvP is done in NWO will also be a major factor in turning a lot of ppl away from it. I mean, yeah, you will get some neutrals that will stick around for a bit, but lawfuls won't. And I'm talking player mentality, not character. Excluding an entire mindset of ppl who are more comfortable with rules/codes/regulations, will result in less ppl playing.
Rainbow queue definitely gets a resounding "yes" from me. However, when one team gets the TR and the GF, and the other doesn't, you're most likely back at the campfire.
However, in the case that a massive influx of PVPers occurs next mod, who dilute and change the demographic, and you wind up in a match against a TR with none on your team... at least it's not 2 TRs 2 GFs and fill in the blank. So not the best balance in that scenario but still MUCH more preferable.
Lastly I'm not sure what you meant by the "anarchist/chaotic mentality that is NWO PVP. It may have been a sarcastic joke? I would say that besides things like poor class balance and poor Q matching, the only thing chaotic is the behavior of a majority of my pugs.
Players who've ever done premades are not fans of just that element. We liked timing our CC and dailies on a singular target. Fast rotatoins from node to node in sync with using slowing features and CC to obtain the cap. Coordination and teamwork and playing your class well. I think your description is the thing PVPers from older mods have always railed against in an attempt to create/maintain a PVP community where order is much more valued than chaos.
So, if there is a surge in ppl PvPing with the new changes coming, what will the average new or returning player be? Of course we don't know for sure, but hopefully new or returning player's perception isn't what you stated earlier "nothing has changed" or for the new player "this sucks". Perception is the key to my chaotic statement. Indeed a premade team full of vets is anything but chaotic. I don't premade very much and I think a very large portion of new players also will not be in a premade team. Solo queue does a decent job alleviating this, but it's nature is a bit chaotic as you have no choice in your team (didn't mean to come across as not liking a bit of chaos). Making solo queue also rainbow orders a bit of that in a good way I think, and making regular Dom rainbow orders it even more so than in solo. Both good things in my opinion.
So in the past, when a new player came to PvP in NWO I can't see the experience not being a chaotic one unless you began with a good guild or group of ppl. And I know a lot of ppl are fine with that, it's a "I've invested more time/money into this game, I deserve to beat you down over and over" or "I deserve to have my point of view be more important" mentality. To me that is chaotic. Maybe I'm in the wrong axis and I should have said evil? (jokingly sarcastic)
Some ppl like things like gear and such to be limited, restricted, ordered. All ducks in a row. These ppl tend not to take advantage of bugs or glitches, probably won't try to make love to your corpse, and would shake your hand afterwards win or lose. Call it care bear if you like, but if population is the key to success here, why not add things that appeal to this type of player as well (rainbow comps is in this category I believe)? The more the merrier. And I'm not saying it has to be as extreme as gear restrictions, there are small improvements that could be done to the maps, reward system, obvious exploits, that could help relieve a skewed perception of the game. Maybe a monk, sorc, druid, and bard too. I was going to say I'm just kidding, but damn, that would be nice!
So I'm on board man, I hope you don't think I was being sarcastic with the resounding "yes".
As far as new players coming to PVP, when you say in the past it depends when you mean. Before guild boons became a thing and tenacity. Anyone could PVP and be within a few hundred stat points of each other. PVE gear was BIS, the main difference was build, encounters, and how to mix and match gear.
New players now come in and are faced with people who outgear them by 10s of thousands of stat points, not to mention boons that heal, damage, and a number of other quirky interactions. Many of us old PVPers (though not all because as you said, some poeple like the imbalance thinking they somehow deserve to squash people for their time invested) actually have advocated for removing all those extraneous imbalances: Guild SH boons, Campaign Boons, Insignias, Mount bonuses, mount combat powers, tenacity being flat for everyone (they did fix this one fortunately).
As far as community or "care bear" mentality, we always called it good sportsmanship back in the day, did exist early on. There will always be trolls but those were diluted amongst a lot of really cool, genuinely nice people who would shake hands by telling each other "good game, thanks for the match" whether they won or lost.
We have the potential with this new mod to reclaim some of that population, if ELO works as described and enough people play then matches should be more balanced in terms of gear and skill. The way I'm told it's to work is you may get quashed a few matches till the ELO places you and then matches should even out and become more and more competitive theoretically. That bit is out of my hands and I'm just repeating essentially what I was told. However, if that's the case, the remaining imbalance will come from team comps. Even if 2 players are ELO bracketed closely if one plays the FoTM and the other doesn't they won't make competitive opponents. Thus the point of this post (I know you agree, I'm not trying to be redundant but elaborate on my thoughts more based off of what you were saying).
As far as chaos, I would say some of that in game chaos comes from difference of motivation and desired outcomes. Many "pugs" in PVP at level 70 are Qing into PVP inadequately geared for PVE, nonetheless for how gear driven PVP is atm without the numbers to create a proper ELO bracketing. They are there, and will tell you so bluntly, "just for the ad". They wave the white flag after one death (if they even come down from campfire before doing it) and ask to trade points. There are others, who are one step up from these who will run to cap points as though playing until they hit the minimum points and then they're done. Then there are players who are there sheerly for K/D ratio who kill pugs in droves just so they sit atop the leaderboard. Some players are there to farm their glory/seals for gear that they can either salvage or they are saving for the next mod. Then lastly, there are players there for the fun, the competition, and the desire to win a well fought match. This is coincidentally, with some nuances, how I view the hierarchy of those players who Q into PVP.
It is this mixing of goals that drives the "chaos" I think you are describing. The hope here, again, is with enough population you will wind up in matches sheerly by probability where everyone has a similar goal, even in SOLO Q. It will all depend on the volume of players who play PVP and decide they enjoy it and will go back. This last bit hinges on having fun matches, which requires some semblance of balance.
My hope is the devs will see this, as you have said you agree, and recognize the more balance they can provide the more likely players are to fill the PVP Q and the less (if ELO works as described) forum posts about imbalance and poorly implemented PVP they will have to read. Forced rainbows in Solo and regular Domi will go far in helping attain this outcome.
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