Aggro

karakla1 · March 2017

I took the freedom to copy a post of mine from the bug report forum to the class forum.

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The Aggro Generation of the Oathbound Paladin Protector seems utterly broken. Yesterday it worked fine today everything went to HAMSTER.

What happend?

I run CN with two TRs, one SW and one OP Healer. I use Binding Oath that says if it hits enemies they are forced to attack me. It doesn't work. One of the TRs (a class that generates 0 thread) gains instantly aggro. I switch to Aura of Radiance. No effect. I use Bane. No Effect. I use Vow of Enmity which should give me aggro for damage of the remaining group: No effect, the TRs or the OP Healer is still being attacked.

I have 60% Arp.Pen. I also have the Dread Warrior which means i generate more Aggro/Threat then normally. My damage is third or second place in paingiver and I, the tank, can't do my job protecting the group because I lose constantly aggro.

What A HAMSTER Up System.

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Anyone a clue what this is? I mean sometimes I lose aggro but that happens if I am chained stunned for like 20 seconds by a boss or something else. That i can't generate any aggro is something i never experienced before and yesterday everything was fine.

oggycz · March 2017

Same thing happened to our pally in esva few days ago. First run ok, second run Storvald still attacked one of our CW. This CW was not on top of paingiver.

sadus671 · March 2017

This is where often it's useful to run Aura of Vengeance or Radiance. As these auras will continue to generate threat even when you are stunned, held, rooted... etc.

I also run Death Slaad's on my tanks. As OP Prod and GF's both have baseline threat multipliers... I'm not running it for DPS, but just for a constant source of damage ticking on the mob.

For the same reason I also recommend Tac GF's spec into Conq for Jagged Blades (if they are going to be running 50%ish Crit chance).

A lot of OP Prod threat is based off hard taunt abilities... (Oath Strike, Binding Oath, Relentless Strike, etc)... so if have low dps and are mainly holding threat via these abilities.... they all have limited duration... so if not refreshed by the fact you are CC'ed... then you will naturally lose threat.

Also, you could make use of Vow of Enmity, which redirects bonus threat generated by allies to you.

Bane also generates a lot of threat due to the debuff component.

karakla1 · March 2017

You didn't seem to ready my comment at all @sadus671

sadus671 · March 2017

karakla1 said:
You didn't seem to ready my comment at all @sadus671

My apologizes.

You are right I skimmed over it and as a result didn't note your second paragraph with abilities used.

Please disregard, as you were doing what i would have done.

dupeks · March 2017

Not necessarily helpful, but I haven't noticed anything similar with my Prot-OP. I aggro with BO and divine call. Had no trouble keeping Orcus on me yesterday, or Spiderlady in eToS.

raw22 · April 2017

Ok I'm not saying this is what happened but sometimes something like this scenario happens.

1. All defender companions have a taunt/aggro move.

2. So let's say a defender companion is opposite side of you; when they use their taunt move you can sometimes lose aggro momentarily.

3. The defender companions are doing/performing exactly as intended. Just you as a tank aren't taking them into account, only your fellow party members.

Ok I run a 4k op tank and I really started to notice this when the lion companions came out ( they started popping up everwhere). Me personally I run a yeti as does my girlfriend who plays a dc. Orcus is one of those bosses who normally zeroes in on tank only along with etos last boss. Whereas the beholder boss in CN for example nonstop switches up who to go after. With that being said if I lose aggro against them it's typically because my or my gf's yeti taunted the boss. Once in a while I've seen Orcus turn 180° towards my girlfriend/her yeti momentarily.

Basically what I have learned to do is keep an eye out for yetis/lions/golems. They seem to be most popular defenders. I try and get next to them while tanking or even on top of them. It doesn't always happen but once in a while their taunts cause me to lose aggro. Some people ask others to put away defenders, I just deal with it and adapt.

karakla1 · April 2017

Or... you know... only an idea.

Make an adjustment where Pets can never get above the Aggro of Tank.

thrilk · April 2017

For someone asking for help you are really salty.

armadeonx · April 2017

karakla1 said:
Or... you know... only an idea.

Make an adjustment where Pets can never get above the Aggro of Tank.

I suspect that would introduce as many problems as it solves (given the history of 'fixes'). The thing is most high level DPS do not run with tank companions, they use strikers for the fast bonding procs (fire archon, con artist etc) you're more likely to see them on clerics & tanks or lower level dps who can't handle damage.

On the thread subject though, I can't say I've noticed losing aggro in CN or EToS recently but I have on occasion had a lion steal it - I do what Raw does and go stand on top of it, it's not really that big an inconvenience.

karakla1 · April 2017

thrilk#9892 said:
For someone asking for help you are really salty.

What is the problem into saying: Fix the issue by using the same pattern as by main endbosses: Ignore Tank Pets or rank them lower.

dragonsbane3 · April 2017

@karakla1

I would hope at this point in the game everyone knows that tank companions are just bad to use as active. They cause far more trouble than they are worth. Now IMO everyone should be running debuff companions IE Dancing shield, Sellsword, Con artist, Ambush Drake. The debuffs to the mobs/boss outweigh anything else.

Everyone I run with are 4k+ and I never have aggro issues as long as I am the first to hit the mobs/boss. Now if they dps are not paying attention and just go ham before I get there then it's a different story. They learn quick with me, you pull it you tank it!
One issue could be your rotation and maybe not enough recovery. I personally run Divine Judgement & Shield of Faith as dailys, Bane, Binding Oath & Templar's Wrath as encounters, Shielding Strike & Radiant Strike as at-wills, Aura of Courage and aura of Wisdom. I guess you could always swap out Binding Oath for Vow of Enmity then you could let your team generate threat for you.

I use TW before the pull to get my hp up and either charge in with Radiant Strike followed by 3 stacks of bane and a Divine judgement. Or Ill pull with 3 stacks of Bane and Divine. I have never lost aggro. also WTF stunned for 20 secs? Sounds like a learn to play issue there mate. 2 things that will make you life easier #1 armor enchant *** ALWAYS *** Elven battle, 80% more resistant to slows, immobilizes, disables and stuns, reduces their duration and increases your stam regen by 30%, #2 Will-O-wisp Companion +25% control resists. With those 2 items and knowing when to use Sanctuary you should never be chain stunned or locked up more than 2-3 secs at max.

Again IMO the best companion set up is
active = debuffer, I use the Sellsword
#2 Energon - for the HP of course
#3 Chicken - for the 10% damage debuff
#4 Rust Monster - for the 15% damage debuff
#5 Will-O-Wisp - for control res - a tank that is actively tanking is not effective at all

so that's a total of

10% defense debuff
25% damage debuff

toss in Bane on top of that for just more cheese

armadeonx · April 2017

A point of note here - debuffs are not additive (e.g. 10% + 10% + 10% = 30%) they are multiplicative (e.g. 100*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1) = 27.1%. When you add your DR - say 80% - it becomes 85.42% which can be quite a shock for anyone who hasn't done the calculations.

The higher you stack multiple debuffs, the smaller the difference they each make.

To illustrate; the chicken, rust monster, bane and 80% DR together means a debuff to incoming damage of 90.36% whereas for a DPS with 35% (50% less 15% enemy RI) would receive 31.33% of incoming damage (a debuff of 68.67%)

For more info see Michela's debuff guide here

karakla1 · April 2017

About Binding Oath...
...instead of having a seperated effect to force monsters to attack me maybe it is build to set my aggro on a specific value? I had now watched several times instantly losing aggros on bosses to another player as soon as i popped this skill. I mean, characters constantly deal more and more damage which should influence the aggro, so maybe the preset value is now too low? Only a guess.

armadeonx · April 2017

I get around this by focusing on damage output rather than debuffing. I very rarely lose aggro as my primary goal is to do as much dps as possible (with the added benefit of increased temp health generation).

As long as your dps is at least 20% that of the higher dps player in your group you'll keep threat.

karakla1 · April 2017

I lost threat at that moment to an our second DPS which had like half the DPS of our first one. The Aggro System is strange.

fluffy6977 · April 2017

karakla1 said:
I lost threat at that moment to an our second DPS which had like half the DPS of our first one. The Aggro System is strange.

DPS is not displayed on the paingiver chart, in case you are wondering. DPS is literally damage per second, or, if you dealt 60,000 damage in a one minute period, your DPS is 1000 D/S. Which is a subtle but super important point to Neverwinter's Threat system. As a tank, you have various features that enchance your threat generation, but you still need to be dealing some amount of damage to keep threat. Whoever has threat also has something called Threshold, which it the amount of additional threat someone else has to deal in order to take threat away from whomever has it, which is why you need to stay within a certain percentage of the Damage Per Second of the damage dealers in the party.

** In some MMO's there are threat swap mechanics on bosses, to force raids to use two tanks at the appropriate time. I have yet to see one in Neverwinter, but that may change in the future.

Have you read Kaelic's guide? If not you should, some of the things are outdated (it's from Mod 5) but the part about Threat has not changed as far as I know. Should help you maximize your threat generation.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160114183446/http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac’s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/

Ultimately it boils down to player skill though. A good DD who starts taking damage knows to stop dealing damage until the tank has threat again, or they will likely die.

dragonsbane3 said:
@karakla1

I would hope at this point in the game everyone knows that tank companions are just bad to use as active. They cause far more trouble than they are worth. Now IMO everyone should be running debuff companions IE Dancing shield, Sellsword, Con artist, Ambush Drake. The debuffs to the mobs/boss outweigh anything else.

You do understand that Dancing Shield is a tank comp right? And it has an unlisted taunt. Which of these mixed signals did you mean?

karakla1 · April 2017

fluffy6977 said:
Whoever has threat also has something called Threshold, which it the amount of additional threat someone else has to deal in order to take threat away from whomever has it, which is why you need to stay within a certain percentage of the Damage Per Second of the damage dealers in the party.

I tried that.

My OP Tank has currently the Owlbear Cub, which was a really good addition because dailies are now way easier to do. I also run over 6K Arp.Pen to get through the DR of the monsters. And I also use Glyph of the Red Dragon for a bit extra damage (and arp.pen).

Is there much else i can do to generate more damage? It is not like I am standing in front of the boss and do nothing.

Edit: Okay I read the guide a bit. I lately respect a few of my feat points to prism and beacon of hope to generate heal if I activate a daily. Maybe the extra threat from the healing will help me to keep aggro.

fluffy6977 · April 2017

Where are your power and crit values?

karakla1 · April 2017

power about 40,000 to 45,000 and crit around 30%.

fluffy6977 · April 2017

You should be dishing plenty of damage, especially with taunt attacks... My only other thoughts would be that it's some sort of weird situational burst damage/heal, or something is happening to you that clears your threat (assuming no one had a threat generating comp out in the run). You aren't running a trans shadowclad by chance are you? Or any sort of invisibilty/anything that reduces your threat like the hawk companion?

veywiil · April 2017

karakla1 said:
power about 40,000 to 45,000 and crit around 30%.

If you are using Burning Light, Templar's Wrath and (Either CoP or Binding Oath), and you're not holding aggro from 3.2k IL's or less something is wrong. Passive's should be Aura of Courage, and Wisdom.

I start with using tab before intitiation. Running in via a Radiant Strike, animation cancelling it by Templar's Wrath, so I get the Temp Hp right away. Then I FULL charge a Burning Light. This is followed by either a CoP or a BO. Then drop a Divine Judgement and press Tab again. Then spam that oath strike. The mob should now be unconditionally your's forever thanks to the 500% aggro generation.

The trick is not to think about aggro, but about damage. Every point of damage dealt indirectly by you is 500% that in threat. Hard Taunt's don't matter when your Divine Judgement hits them for 400k, generating 2 million aggro nearly instantly.

I keep editing sorry, I think It's important to mention a few things yet. First of all always keep your tab on, its 35% bonus damage form the Justice tree. (In case you'r not following that's 175% more aggro. CoP provides another 30%, which is 150% more aggro thanks to that massive 500% conversion.

[Factoring in the multiplicative effects of damage buffs.{Correct me if this is wrong.}]) If this is wrong, then it does even more...
I think 0.455 is correct. [Is this the result of the Diminishing returns of the 2 buffs?]

What does this mean? If I hit a 400k Divine Judgement normally, and I have both of those buffs on, I'm doing (400k * ( 1 + 0.455)

This = 582,000, which is 2,910,000 aggro, not counting AoC or anything else proccing. Now 400k is sort of an overachiever number... But it's an example.

karakla1 · April 2017

I wear a greater feytouched enchantments as weapon enchantment and a normal Bark Shield Enchantment as armor enchantment.

Edit: Doing at the moment daily in RD and lose immediatly aggro by undead hulks to my Lillend (heals at max 8K + very little damage) while I cut away 30-50% of their health. Still no aggro on me.

veywiil · April 2017

Thanks everyone for their input. I was able to get in game with the original poster, and we talked for about a half hour.

Aggro is no longer an issue for them. The main issue was they had no big damage generator being run. It was all debuff encounters, and relying on Hard taunts like BO for the aggro. After swapping to something like fully charged Burning Light, there was a big difference. Hopefully OP can repost to make sure this is resolved to their satisfaction.

karakla1 · April 2017

Yes it is resolved. Thanks Veywiil for your help

armadeonx · April 2017

I did actually have a TR steal aggro from me for 2 seconds in an EToS today...

Aggro

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