REWORK/UPDATE a few Paladin Power's discussion.

strathkin · March 2017

Almost every Paladin is required to use SMITE & Templar's Wrath regardless of what Paragon they choose and so that gives most Paladin's simply really only one option to customize 'most' of the time. Paladin's have had two major NERFS to Daily Powers being Device Justice & Devine Protector, it be NICE if they perhaps considered the two requests below?

▪ Bane provides 10% damage reduction to target per charge (3x max) in addition to taking 10% more damage from Paladin.
▪ Vow at Rank IV enhances damage to a max of 50% but as above only provides a BUFF no direct damage itself.
▪ Circle of Power at Rank IV also increases damage by 40%, and increases damage resistance to allies within Aura.

While all of these are very similar and don't offer any direct damage/healing themselves it perhaps be NICE if Bane were updated to extended Radiant Damage from Aura of Courage more similar to how Vow of Emity does; yet that's -may- be limited by Devotion Healing Buff rather than damage BUFF/DEBUFF like for Protection.

Note: Updated Paladin changes below based on thread feedback to date.
▪ Shorten animation of Sacred Weapon OR extend hit's to 4 (one per level) is reasonable.
╘ after all that's only 1 more than offered today; and only if they didn't shorten the animation.
▪ Update Burning Light if it's interrupted to cast the damage; rather than start over.
╘ after all Hunter Ranger's had the exact same thing done with their Aimed Shot about a year ago.

IF there is an Elven god please make that WISH become a reality. Please & Thank You!

@nitocris83

Unknown · March 2017

This content has been removed.

majorcharvenak · March 2017

strathkin said:
Almost every Paladin is required to use SMITE & Templar's Wrath regardless of what Paragon they choose and so that gives most Paladin's simply really only one option to customize 'most' of the time. Paladin's have had two major NERFS to Daily Powers being Device Justice & Devine Protector, it be NICE if they got one more offensive encounter that actually did some damage not BUFF.

▪ Bane provides 10% damage reduction to target per charge (3x max) in addition to taking 10% more damage from Paladin.
▪ Vow at Rank IV enhances damage to a max of 50% but as above only provides a BUFF no direct damage itself.
▪ Circle of Power at Rank IV also increases damage by 40%, and increases damage resistance to allies within Aura.

All of these are very similar and it be NICE if Vow were simply retired and replaced extending Bane slightly and giving Paladin's another option to either replace Relentless Avenger or Smite.

▪ Buff Bane so it provides 12% damage reduction to targer (3x max) in addition to taking 12% more damage per Charge.
▪ UPDATE Vow so it is instead a Single target offensive damage dealing encounter not simply yet another BUFF.

IF there is an Elven god please make that WISH become a reality. Please & Thank You! </p>

@strathkin,

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of areas though I would agree that the paladin class over all could use a personal damage buff for soloing, since our damage output is meh. First, You have to remember that we are a support class, not a damage dealing class. Now with that said, there various builds out there that folks have put together that can boost damage, but its structured for Party play and for the Party's overall benefit (clearing the dungeon). If you feel that your personal damage could use a boost, I would recommend taking a look at the guides and builds folks have shared and see how your build compares.

Additionally, the powers you listed are class powers and have secondary effects that function very differently depending on which Paragon path you take. While Bane does provide the damage debuff to the target and damage buff to the party, on a Devotion paladin it can be used to on a party member to bless them with additional damage resistance as well as a damage buff. On Vow, while generating additional threat for a Prot Paladin, is the lifeblood of Devotion Paladins since everyone who hits that target gets healed. My point is, I would be extremely reluctant to recommend doing away with or changing class powers when the result might be detrimental to one path or the other.

Finally, I understand the desire to post this in the Player Feedback forum for potentially higher visibility and feedback. However, I'm feeling this thread should probably go to the Class Forum and request that a moderater make that determination on where is the appropriate place is for this discussion. Those are my two coppers.

Shia

fizgigtiznalkie · March 2017

I'm going to go ahead and disagree. I want two things, Binding Oath to not deal damage to myself, and not losing temp hp for no reason at the dragon turtle. Actually how about we never lose temp HP out of combat? Why is that even a thing? The first two seconds of the fight should be the easiest, not the hardest, looking at you Orcus.

plasticbat · March 2017

Smite is not the must have encounter for my OP. My OP always has Wrath and Avenger. Smit/Circle of Power/Bane/BO are for the 3rd encounter. I use Avenger for solo, against boss and only one minion left. I could be wrong but I think Avenger is the most powerful offensive encounter for OP.

duwiil · March 2017

I agree with the sentiment that these skills do not really need to be changed a whole lot. Prot pally is in a weird spot, but it does fine still. CoP casting's time is too long, as is bane, I think animation speed is a big selling point for Pally's. We should be shielding most hits from bosses, and to have to have literally 2 seconds of animation on CoP is crazy, because the boss is almost guaranteed to hit you during that time. And during 'Trash' mobs, you don't get the benefits form the circle, as it is only up for just a few seconds, before most of the trash is dead...

nameexpired · March 2017

I'd love for Divine Judgement to have a much faster casting time (like the TR's ITC). Cooldown is fine.
AS I don't expect Cryptic to do that it would be acceptable to do DJ during movement like the GFs ITF. Having to stop while approaching that foe is immersion breaking at least.

damoc · March 2017

strathkin said:
Almost every Paladin is required to use SMITE & Templar's Wrath regardless of what Paragon they choose and so that gives most Paladin's simply really only one option to customize 'most' of the time. Paladin's have had two major NERFS to Daily Powers being Device Justice & Devine Protector, it be NICE if they got one more offensive encounter that actually did some damage not BUFF.

▪ Bane provides 10% damage reduction to target per charge (3x max) in addition to taking 10% more damage from Paladin.
▪ Vow at Rank IV enhances damage to a max of 50% but as above only provides a BUFF no direct damage itself.
▪ Circle of Power at Rank IV also increases damage by 40%, and increases damage resistance to allies within Aura.

All of these are very similar and it be NICE if Vow were simply updated or replaced by extending Bane slightly and giving Paladin's another option to swap with either Relentless Avenger or Smite.

▪ Buff Bane so it provides 12% damage / damage reduction to target (3x max) per Charge.
▪ UPDATE Vow so it offers a Single target offensive damage dealing encounter power not yet another BUFF.

IF there is an Elven god please make that WISH become a reality. Please & Thank You! </p>

Don't touch my vow

You're allowed to speed the animation on bane and/or allow to move while you do it
You should revise CoP by quickening its animation and by changing the devotion bonus. 30% outgoing healing? seriously? What a sick joke.

strathkin · March 2017

majorcharvenak said:

strathkin said:
Almost every Paladin is required to use SMITE & Templar's Wrath regardless of what Paragon they choose and so that gives most Paladin's simply really only one option to customize 'most' of the time. Paladin's have had two major NERFS to Daily Powers being Device Justice & Devine Protector, it be NICE if they got one more offensive encounter that actually did some damage not BUFF.

▪ Bane provides 10% damage reduction to target per charge (3x max) in addition to taking 10% more damage from Paladin.
▪ Vow at Rank IV enhances damage to a max of 50% but as above only provides a BUFF no direct damage itself.
▪ Circle of Power at Rank IV also increases damage by 40%, and increases damage resistance to allies within Aura.

All of these are very similar and it be NICE if Vow were simply retired and replaced extending Bane slightly and giving Paladin's another option to either replace Relentless Avenger or Smite.

▪ Buff Bane so it provides 12% damage reduction to targer (3x max) in addition to taking 12% more damage per Charge.
▪ UPDATE Vow so it is instead a Single target offensive damage dealing encounter not simply yet another BUFF.

IF there is an Elven god please make that WISH become a reality. Please & Thank You! </p>
@strathkin,

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of areas though I would agree that the paladin class over all could use a personal damage buff for soloing, since our damage output is meh. First, You have to remember that we are a support class, not a damage dealing class. Now with that said, there various builds out there that folks have put together that can boost damage, but its structured for Party play and for the Party's overall benefit (clearing the dungeon). If you feel that your personal damage could use a boost, I would recommend taking a look at the guides and builds folks have shared and see how your build compares.

Additionally, the powers you listed are class powers and have secondary effects that function very differently depending on which Paragon path you take. While Bane does provide the damage debuff to the target and damage buff to the party, on a Devotion paladin it can be used to on a party member to bless them with additional damage resistance as well as a damage buff. On Vow, while generating additional threat for a Prot Paladin, is the lifeblood of Devotion Paladins since everyone who hits that target gets healed. My point is, I would be extremely reluctant to recommend doing away with or changing class powers when the result might be detrimental to one path or the other.

Finally, I understand the desire to post this in the Player Feedback forum for potentially higher visibility and feedback. However, I'm feeling this thread should probably go to the Class Forum and request that a moderater make that determination on where is the appropriate place is for this discussion. Those are my two coppers.

Shia

But see where you said, "Additionally, the powers you listed are class powers and have secondary effects that function very differently" There actually ENCOUNTER powers that behave far more like what you'd expect a real class power; all 3 BUFF/NERF damage and do absolutely no direct damage &/or healing themselves.

Honestly I have just always thought having 3 encounter powers all which do absolutely 'zero direct damage' is just a little too much; they should at least offer a little AoE damage / healing in addition to the BUFF/DEBUFF.

The reason I wrote this THREAD.

While Paladin's do have Aura of Solitude to help the out a bit when solo; it's abilities are negated by a simple companion; all except Augment.

Paladin's need at least 1 more encounter that does direct damage or at least revise Bane to gain the Aura of Courage benefit that Vow get's as damoc identified.

Still I'd simply be happy if they simply took Sacred Weapon animation and had it speed up to simply illuminate the mace/sword rather than the long thrust to the sky; if not at least extend the hits from 3 out to 4 or 5.

strathkin · March 2017

plasticbat said:
Smite is not the must have encounter for my OP. My OP always has Wrath and Avenger. Smit/Circle of Power/Bane/BO are for the 3rd encounter. I use Avenger for solo, against boss and only one minion left. I could be wrong but I think Avenger is the most powerful offensive encounter for OP.

Wrath is a Class Power and Sure Relentless Avenger is often slotted for me on Q as it seems like the only single target damage dealer any Paladin has. Often I use it with Smith cause of it's AoE / Debuff even if it's perhaps not on everyone's list - although Templar's Wrath likely is.

thegurupandit · March 2017

I would appreciate if sacred weapon animation be like ITF (GF) quick to do , as most of mob hit before u cast

. pls

damoc · March 2017

strathkin said:

plasticbat said:
Smite is not the must have encounter for my OP. My OP always has Wrath and Avenger. Smit/Circle of Power/Bane/BO are for the 3rd encounter. I use Avenger for solo, against boss and only one minion left. I could be wrong but I think Avenger is the most powerful offensive encounter for OP.
Wrath is a Class Power and Sure Relentless Avenger is often slotted for me on Q as it seems like the only single target damage dealer any Paladin has. Often I use it with Smith cause of it's AoE ame with Templar's Wrath and it's ability to increase your Hitpoints.

Obviously you're new to paladin since wrath stands for Templar's wrath which is an encounter power.
In addition I far prefer dealing 50% more damage than to have another damage dealing power. Another tip for you if you have Aura of courage slotted you do deal damage when you apply the vow of enmity.

The only single target damage dealer we have are either our at-will or smite. Everything else touch multiple targets (burning light - templar wrath - divine touch - Relentless avenger)

The other encounter are support, either good or bad depending on the oath you take.

Sacred weapons op: meh / dev bad
Bane good for both
Cleansing touch op very niche (pvp)/ dev meh (over heal)
Banishment niche for both
Vow: op good / dev very good
Absolution op average/ dev meh
Circle of power op very good (except animation time)/ dev very disappointing

So if you wish to absolutely change encounter powers aim at those not so good support encounter or ask for a damage buff on divine touch but don't go asking for changes on things that are already good

If you wish to dish some damage, learn what your class can do. If you want to, you can have a very interesting piledriver by doing: Vow (50%) - bane ( 30%) - circle of Power (30%) - Judge ( justice feat 35%) for a whooping bonus of roughly 3.5 times your normal damage (damage bonuses are multiplicative of each other). Even if your divine jugement putters around 30k damage it will climb to 100 k without any crit 'simply' in response to the damage buff.

If even after all this you still want to change our 3 multipliers, what can I say? Drop the paladin and play with a gardian fighter? You will then have all the damage you want.

strathkin · March 2017

Well before you suggest someone else is new to Paladin. You should realize Templar's Wrath would probably be better shortened or referred to in short form as Templar's by the vast majority. As paladin's also have a class power called Aura of Wrath which increases the damage you or the party does as our hit points or health diminish.

Now while I agree with with 'most' other things you've stated above - it doesn't discount other things I've mentioned or identified to help a little. Most were simply provided as suggestions to see what others idea's / thoughts were. I'd be mostly happy if they just reduced the animation on Sacred Weapon &/or extend the hits out to 4 or 5.

nameexpired · March 2017

The problem that I have with the OP that all our stuff is to slow - hence it is very easy to lose the focus of a boss.
Even Sanctuary is terribly slow. IMO our defense should be established much faster.

I also suggest to make Burning Light cast with doulbe the speed, and if interrupted by stun or other CC it should dispense what is there.
Doing dailies as OP is terrible, I wonder if one of the deciding number crunching devs has the ability to see this and rectify the situation.

btairborne · March 2017

Sacred Weapon should be made an instant attack damage encounter with bonus Holy damage derived from Charisma. This bonus damage should then last 3 more single target attacks of any kind.

strathkin · March 2017

I've OFTEN suggested Sacred Weapon should either have a far shorter animation or in lieu of that extend the hits out from 3 to 4 or even 5 (one per rank with possibly the first given 2 hits) as either would be easy to implement. I still think all Paladin's need a little bit of a Offensive boost even though I'm not asking for much. But given they have gotten two major nerf's to Devine Justice & Devine Protector you'd think they could at least shorten the animation or extend the hits for Sacred Weapon.

Or as the other person suggested Burning Light cast a little faster, and if interrupted by stun or CC it should dispense what's charged.

neon · March 2018

Hi,
This is an important thread as the paladin has many issues atm. You guys have mentionned these (I might have missed some) :

1) Bane targeting (for Devo more but for Prot still)

2) Sacred weapon specifics (duration, animation, number of hits)

3) Circle of Power animation speed (and bad overhealing bonus for Devo)

4) Divine judgment animation (speed up and to cast while moving)

Lots more could be said and I invite you to list major issues that appear during soloing, T9G/FBI/mSP and PvP.

P.S. : For readers of french, there is a post on that here : https://www.arcgames.com/fr/forums/nwfr#/discussion/78715/ameliorations-du-paladin

strathkin · March 2018

Ok my original comment was mostly related to the fact that we have mostly 3 powers that mostly directly only BUFF while offering no direct damage; thought be nice if some where consolidated &/or did even a little damage. Now one person did correctly identify that with Courage Class Power / Vow can deal a little bit of damage yet that's the only one.

As neon said above I'd be happy if they just reduced animation of Sacred Weapon and extend the hit's out to 4 (max) instead of 3 or one per level. Although I'd admit Circle of Power can also see you knocked while casting it often.

Yet I just thought have 3 encounter power mostly BUFF's with no direct damage/healing themselves; perhaps Vow gives a tiny bit if your using Aura of Courage.

btairborne said:
Sacred Weapon should be made an instant attack damage encounter with bonus Holy damage derived from Charisma. This bonus damage should then last 3 more single target attacks of any kind.

While I don't know that it be extended to 6 hit's with Sacred Weapon especially if it was an instant buff with no animation but lighting up your weapon. I do certainly think IF they did not shorten the whole animation the should at the very least extended the hits to 4 (one per level) if not 5. Still that is simply an alternate to shortening the animation which takes a lot more work to change.

majorcharvenak · March 2018

strathkin said:

majorcharvenak said:

strathkin said:
Almost every Paladin is required to use SMITE & Templar's Wrath regardless of what Paragon they choose and so that gives most Paladin's simply really only one option to customize 'most' of the time. Paladin's have had two major NERFS to Daily Powers being Device Justice & Devine Protector, it be NICE if they got one more offensive encounter that actually did some damage not BUFF.

▪ Bane provides 10% damage reduction to target per charge (3x max) in addition to taking 10% more damage from Paladin.
▪ Vow at Rank IV enhances damage to a max of 50% but as above only provides a BUFF no direct damage itself.
▪ Circle of Power at Rank IV also increases damage by 40%, and increases damage resistance to allies within Aura.

All of these are very similar and it be NICE if Vow were simply retired and replaced extending Bane slightly and giving Paladin's another option to either replace Relentless Avenger or Smite.

▪ Buff Bane so it provides 12% damage reduction to targer (3x max) in addition to taking 12% more damage per Charge.
▪ UPDATE Vow so it is instead a Single target offensive damage dealing encounter not simply yet another BUFF.

IF there is an Elven god please make that WISH become a reality. Please & Thank You! </p>
@strathkin,

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of areas though I would agree that the paladin class over all could use a personal damage buff for soloing, since our damage output is meh. First, You have to remember that we are a support class, not a damage dealing class. Now with that said, there various builds out there that folks have put together that can boost damage, but its structured for Party play and for the Party's overall benefit (clearing the dungeon). If you feel that your personal damage could use a boost, I would recommend taking a look at the guides and builds folks have shared and see how your build compares.

Additionally, the powers you listed are class powers and have secondary effects that function very differently depending on which Paragon path you take. While Bane does provide the damage debuff to the target and damage buff to the party, on a Devotion paladin it can be used to on a party member to bless them with additional damage resistance as well as a damage buff. On Vow, while generating additional threat for a Prot Paladin, is the lifeblood of Devotion Paladins since everyone who hits that target gets healed. My point is, I would be extremely reluctant to recommend doing away with or changing class powers when the result might be detrimental to one path or the other.

Finally, I understand the desire to post this in the Player Feedback forum for potentially higher visibility and feedback. However, I'm feeling this thread should probably go to the Class Forum and request that a moderater make that determination on where is the appropriate place is for this discussion. Those are my two coppers.

Shia
But see where you said, "Additionally, the powers you listed are class powers and have secondary effects that function very differently" There actually ENCOUNTER powers that behave far more like what you'd expect a real class power to do because all 3 BUFF/NERF damage to/from enemy that effects yourself or in some cases the party.

At the very LEAST they should color it yellow and make Vow of Emity a Class Power and replace Aura of Valor or Radiance. Honestly having 3 encounter powers all which do absolutely 'zero direct damage' is well rather SAD and should be reserved for class powers.

The reason I wrote this THREAD.

While Paladin's do have Aura of Solitude to help the out a bit when solo it's abilities are negated by a simple companion or someone not even in your party crossing your aura threshold even if their not attacking or plan to attack your enemy.

Paladin's need 1 more encounter that does direct damage to help with single target. It also be nice if Sacred Weapon animation was speed up to illuminate the mace/sword in gold rather than the long thrust to the sky.

You're right @strathkin and I stand corrected. I should have been more precise in what I was trying to explain. Those encounter powers are common to the class as a whole and not unique to the paragon path selected like Bond of Virtue or Binding Oath and have additional effects based on the path selected, or these days, which loadout you're using. That's what I meant and recommedations of changing or replace a particular encounters, just for some personal additional damage via another damaging power pulls us away imho from our principal role - Support. Yes, we have the capabilty to do some impressive damage numbers depending on the respective build, but that, at least to me, should be in support of our role as a Tank, Heals, Buffing-class not as an end unto itself.

Additionally, those encounters powers you mention serve to benefit not just you but the party as a whole. Now as others have stated, I wouldn't mind them relooking at the encounters and readjusting benefits that are not all that useful, like Circle's healing bonus when used by healadins or aura of restoration (Devo Class Power) which gives...additional bonus to healing as they are of little to no utility. However, recommendations to change the effects of an encounter or evening changing it to make it a class power, or worse replace it with a personal damage dealing power requires some serious consideration before implementation. If you want to increase the animation speed, fine and I'm all for that. If you want to advocate for a boost to the base damage of our encounters, I can get behind that as well so long as it doesn't create role creep when in parties with folks of similar IL. However, I'm very leery about changing effects on powers shared by the class as we seem as likely to get HAMSTER that breaks one or both paragons as we are likely to get something good. Two coppers.

strathkin · March 2018

Most that which I wrote early on was just suggestions to get people thinking of idea's / suggestions themselves.

I honestly wouldn't ))expect(( Vow of Emity, Bane, or Circle of Power to change that much if at all... except perhaps extend Aura of Courage to trigger on Bane like it does on Vow; although that may be complicated by Devotion as Bane offer's a heal in that case.

It's why I'd mostly like to see is just Sacred Weapon Animation shortened or have the Hit's extended to 4/5. Although it would also be nice if Burning Light if it get's interrupted at least discharged based on where it had cast up to! If they made those few simple changes it likely give the Pally just a little more UMPH even as mostly a support class.

preechr · March 2018

Aura of Solitude is fairly unusable... just change it to add some radiant damage to all encounters when not in a party so OPs can solo easily with a bonding pet

Problem solved and OPs remain support in parties

majorcharvenak · March 2018

strathkin said:
Most that which I wrote early on was just suggestions to get people thinking of idea's / suggestions themselves.

I honestly wouldn't except Vow of Emity, Bane, or Circle of Power to change that much if at all... except perhaps extend Aura of Courage to trigger on Bane like it does on Vow; although that may be complicated by Devotion as Bane offer's a heal.

Mostly what I'd really like to see is just Sacred Weapon Animation shortened or have the Hit's extended to 4/5. Although it also be nice if Burning Light if it get's interrupted at least discharged based on where it had cast up to! They made those few simple changes it likely give the Pally just a little more UMPH.

Although I do recognize & support the view that they are mostly a SUPPORT CLASS probably more so than most classes today.

I can get behind all that.

tom · March 2018

Hmm Templers wrath is not smth ppl pref to use in "top end" Groups.
And for soloing we have enough good dps powers to clear campaings as fast as normal dps classes.

strathkin · March 2018

majorcharvenak said:

strathkin said:
Most that which I wrote early on was just suggestions to get people thinking of idea's / suggestions themselves.

I honestly wouldn't except Vow of Emity, Bane, or Circle of Power to change that much if at all... except perhaps extend Aura of Courage to trigger on Bane like it does on Vow; although that may be complicated by Devotion as Bane offer's a heal.

Mostly what I'd really like to see is just Sacred Weapon Animation shortened or have the Hit's extended to 4/5. Although it also be nice if Burning Light if it get's interrupted at least discharged based on where it had cast up to! They made those few simple changes it likely give the Pally just a little more UMPH.

Although I do recognize & support the view that they are mostly a SUPPORT CLASS probably more so than most classes today.
I can get behind all that.

Even the TYPO which I fixed above : where I originally said (except) not expect.

tom#6998 said:
Hmm Templers wrath is not smth ppl pref to use in "top end" Groups.

And for soloing we have enough good dps powers to clear campaings as fast as normal dps classes.

I don't think anyone will know what your saying here about Templar's Wrath above so perhaps you could clarify.

Still I think you'll find many will disagree with your comment that Paladin's do as much damage on single target as the higher end DPS classes cause that's certainly not the case. Sure Paladin's are a lot more Resilient depending on their Paragon; but there also not going to come close to the DPS classes for damage. But no one here is trying to get them to be one either.

Cause I'll tell you in Chult in a Hunt in behind the Camp... ....my Pally can generally keep going and going, like the energizer bunny, provided he doesn't make a foolish mistake! But when he has 9-15 of those little minions storm and respawn quicker than they die; Radiant Strike / Aura of Courage will keep them under Control; but you'll spend a lot longer before the main Lure guy is finally defeated. A DPS Class will likely do it with far more efficiency; but will depend more heavily on lifesteal to stay in the fight.

Still I'm not trying to turn a Pally into a DPS class either, if you want that with a shield go play a Guardian Fighter!

▪ Shorten animation of Sacred Weapon OR extend hit's to 4 (one per level) is reasonable.
╘ after all that's only 1 more than offered today; and only if they didn't shorten the animation.
▪ Update Burning Light if it's interrupted to cast the damage; rather than start over.
╘ after all Hunter Ranger's had the exact same thing done with their Aimed Shot about a year ago.

artifleur · March 2018

Why would you use smite?

lardeson · March 2018

right now the classes are broken in this order: GF>OP>GWF>HR, more than an update, what they need is a fix, the class is already too broken as to break it even more. anyone that plays an OP knows

REWORK/UPDATE a few Paladin Power's discussion.

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