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PVP damage vs. PVE damage.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
The primary issue that classes in PVP have difficulty with is DoT damage vs. Burst damage. In PVP burst damage always wins out. Unless you have some rescue mechanism burst damage will kill. Because there is so much internal healing DoT damage must be ridiculous to overcome it. There are a couple of SW's I've seen that went mostly full DPS and are able to kill SOME end game classes/players but they are very squishy and die immediately to a 2v1. There are no end game Pallies I've seen so far that kill end game players 1v1 unless that player happens to get caught by a huge Binding Oath proc with all the damage they've taken. DPS pallies are sorely lacking in the DPS area in PVP. Burning light is annoying to end game players but their internal healing just out heals it. Templars wrath is a joke in terms of dealing damage and therefore doesn't return much temp HP.
There needs to be a mechanism that gives these "DoT' based classes more killing power in regards to PVP. A damage specced GF can hit end game players for 40-90K damage with one encounter, even more if buffed. A combat HR can take 90K life or more with an encounter and a few at wills. A tr can hit SE for over 200K if EXE specced and easily 180K + if Sabo specced and powered correctly. GWF, with stacks up can hit IBS for 90K and at wills for 30-45K. These cause issues for DoT classes as they will lose over time while these classes lifesteal and insignia heal their way back to full life.
I would suggest a debuff that is added to DoT abilities. One that affects their targets healing like the boon that decreases "healing from all sources by 25%". This wouldn't affect PVE as most if not all mobs/bosses do not heal. It would primarily only be effective in PVP allowing DoT classes to debuff the internal healing of their target and allow them to potentially overcome that hurdle. This would allow DoT damage to have as much usefulness as Burst damage and add an extra element of debuffing to help teammates when 2v2ing.
Let me know what you think? My only caution would be the percentage of healing debuff, too little and it doesn't make a difference. Too much and you have classes that will heal to full while wiping everything.
There needs to be a mechanism that gives these "DoT' based classes more killing power in regards to PVP. A damage specced GF can hit end game players for 40-90K damage with one encounter, even more if buffed. A combat HR can take 90K life or more with an encounter and a few at wills. A tr can hit SE for over 200K if EXE specced and easily 180K + if Sabo specced and powered correctly. GWF, with stacks up can hit IBS for 90K and at wills for 30-45K. These cause issues for DoT classes as they will lose over time while these classes lifesteal and insignia heal their way back to full life.
I would suggest a debuff that is added to DoT abilities. One that affects their targets healing like the boon that decreases "healing from all sources by 25%". This wouldn't affect PVE as most if not all mobs/bosses do not heal. It would primarily only be effective in PVP allowing DoT classes to debuff the internal healing of their target and allow them to potentially overcome that hurdle. This would allow DoT damage to have as much usefulness as Burst damage and add an extra element of debuffing to help teammates when 2v2ing.
Let me know what you think? My only caution would be the percentage of healing debuff, too little and it doesn't make a difference. Too much and you have classes that will heal to full while wiping everything.
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Also, what counts as a dot class? Nearly every class has some form of dot so how do we choose who gets the debuff or not. If damage is an issue then maybe lowering the amount of damage resistance tenacity gives on dots is the more ideal solution. Maybe dots get 75% of the damage reduction from tenacity compared to normal 100%. The big problem to balance with dots is making sure they don't get to the point of where once you put all your dots on someone they become the walking dead.
I'm 100% sure you won't get them to have abilities have different effects from tenacity. That would be a stupid amount of coding for a few abilities.
That all said however, i do agree with your last sentence that it shouldn't be a death sentence that they can simply throw all these dots on you and walk away. That's why I think the percentage of healing debuff would be the most important for balancing. It would have to be monitored so that it is not OP.
My personal opinion is also that I like to see types of damage that make "sense" considering the class. For example, an assassin is going to have piercing damage because that's what they would specialize in. Finding holes in targets armor taking down tanks with stealth and precision blows. Rangers would learn to use their blades in this manner to some degree as well. However using curses to gain piercing damage doesn't make as much sense to me as cursing the targets ability to regenerate, heal, or cure themselves. This makes sense to me coming from a warlock.
I prefer trying to make damage appropriate to the way the class "should" function. I would say that certain aura's from the Paladin and their abilities like blinding light should function the same way in that their god would grant them the ability so sap the enemies strength. Although tbh, I think binding oath should be piercing because it should completely return the damage dealt while it was up as the tooltip says, to players as well.
Addendum: No SW can survive 2v1 at end game.
The real issue with pvp is other op class mechanics make playing a dodge-less class difficult. CB rogues and Opp wizards stacked on a team will still rule the day due to the overwhelming amount of AoE CC effects that can be blindly spammed with no drawbacks. Once they fix AA so it actually consumes charges in mod 11.5 and the perma CC immunity is gone, this will start becoming a thing again. If there is any complaints that need to be made it's about how overwhelmingly powerful stacked CC effects can be and wonky burst damage in general from other "overpowered" classes (combat HR, IV GF, Exec TR) that will result in a death in 1-2 hits. The new relic weapons have only made this worse too it seems. We've gone from runaway self healing given by insignias, to runaway burst damage over the course of 2 mods. PW just can't seem to find a happy medium.
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WHILE when you fight the hunter ranger you cant use your powers because you are dazed and rooted all the time.
Combat hunter has very powerful attacks but at least combat ranger you are able to move away from those hits and counter attack.
cw got fix for the purpose to not able to spam freeze 24/7 and Now what? no word for the hunter doing the same with roots dazes.
p.s: REPEL to remind is an ability which can be dodge and sprint and avoid it while a root what is ? an not able to avoid control at least with dodge and still i see roots and some dazes to cancel guardians shields.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Playing on console.
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As an SW soulbinder spec you can kill CWs, other SWs, Paladins (because of loop damage from aura of courage), or perhaps TR (if they're bad). That's it. Good luck killing a GWF, GF, HR, DC. Mostly you're a fast moving tank in a 1v1 unless you go glass cannon, in which case you MAY kill another class but you're just as likely to die 1v1 and do so quickly.
Next time, please use text to explain your position as video's don't do justice because we have no idea what IL, Build, Skill level those players are on the other team.
Bullcharge + double daily from GWF and GF...??? = profit!
DPS DC Debuff + GWF or GF ???!!! PROFIT!
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Usually when another class exchanges at wills with my pal they lose ( unless top combat ranger, then I might lose
PS: Im gonna have to revise my statement a bit lol, recently Ive been a bit more active in pvp and Ive been meeting more and more GWFs who I cant dent. Made me realize there is a new bis level and I'm like 15% shy of it
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Binding oath should be, imho, the ONLY ability a Pally has that is straight piercing damage. Without returning the amount of damage done it offers no threat end game. However, my main talking point was about allowing abilities of certain classes to reduce the targets incoming healing. Abilities like warlocks bargain or burning light. Thus giving them utility and a offering the class a little bit more threat in the age of insignias, mount heals, weapon heals, pot heals, lifesteal and random other internal health regens.
Addendum: The reason burst classes have SOOO much damage is the damage multipliers available to their class through feats, encounters, abilities etc. You mentioned GF and for good reason, it has tons of damage multipliers that make it's already considerable damage very high in 1v1's. For example:
A GF has a base damage that is then buffed by: Double mark offering huge combat advantage bonus and damage bonus, Shield warriors wrath giving damage multipliers, trample the fallen offering damage multipliers to controlled targets (most of GFs damage is CC), Into the fray offering damage buff, Powerful attack (a damage buff feat), Wrathful warrior giving damage buff when temp HP, staggering challenge from griffons wrath damage buff, reckless attacker another damge buff. By the time they hit you their damage has been multiplied many times over.
Paladin has very few damage buffs, most damage they deal is straight damage. Wrathful strikes is damage bonus to your at wills, stem the tide offers limited damage buff under specific circumstances, vengeful judge buff damage, aura of solitude offers 1v1 damage buff but not if allies are near, bane and vow of enmity which then use up one of your limited damage/survivability encounters. This is why Pallies underperform in PVP damage. A distinct lack of damage buffs. I was attempting to come up with creative methods of "buffing" their damage that would not affect their PVE status as this is always the devs concern. It's one reason piercing damage was introduced. It's easy to get above PVE DR, nigh impossible to get above PVP tenacity DR and regular DR combined. Hopefully this explains a bit why at end game damage must be ridiculous to actually kill anyone with max tenacity in PVP.
I do agree a little bit with you about SW cannot survive 2v1 IF i face a maxed gf and hr. Why? because piercing gets buffed by gf and will melt me in second if im not careful. Hr class are broken anyway so why worry too much about them? Class will get a re-balance/fix sooner or later. There is no class i cannot tank at 1v1 unless its a TR using smoke bomb glitch with a dunk. i can survive 2 gf's unless they are doing the mark glitch. So yeah, without all those glitches in pvp and broken hr's, i can tank very well as a SW.
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I think the PROBLEM is Self Healing.
- We have talked about this a ton before. But when looking at the HPS (healing per second) in PVP, even with heal depression its insane... So classes that are more DPS focused rather than Burst focused, have a horrible time because of the Healing that is done.
So the real fix to this, would be looking at the sources of self healing and addressing that. In doing so, you will "balance" DPS classes vs Burst classes.
This is much easier said than done now though because ALLLLL the sources of self healing. I dont know the best solution frankly, because heal depression was already (IMO) a bad idea and I cant in good conscious recommend them increase it, however one POSSIBLE solution they could tinker with is increase the severity of heal depression up to 75-80% (meaning heals effectively only do 20% -25% of its PVE value). This is ONE possible solution that could help PVP.
Currently heal depression is pegged to 50%, and I think bumping it to 80% might be one "bandaid" to the problem. My only concern is how that would affect support classes like DC and if a heal DC would even be viable anymore. With a direct reduction of HPS in PVP, it MIGHT (just MIGHT) tip the scales back to where DPS is on par with Burst damage.
The other thing I would LIKE to see is them standardize tenacity across all characters and remove it from gear.
- Bump "Damage Resistance" up to about 75%
- Keep ARP resistance at about 80%
- Remove Crit Suppression
- CC Tencaity stays about the same
- Piercing Damage now impacted by Tenacity (at 75%)
Im just brainstorming numbers but the IDEA is that with less healing (now 20% effective values) people need more tankiness (DR buffed to 75%) and no more crit suppression.
Also removing tenacity on gear, gives ALL players equal footing in PVP... Or atleast MORE equal footing in PVP. Removing piercing damage will really only affect HR and TR (to my knowledge) and SOME of that is made back up by no more crit suppression.
All in all, base damage goes down, net healing goes down, tankiness goes up slighty, crits go up compared to non crits, tenacity as a stat went goodbye.
After spending some time in PVP these past few days I can safely say that indeed my 4k paladin cant kill a darn thing
Anyway, to be brief, Id buff a protection Paladin by making his TW more effective in PVP only. A bit longer cc and at least double damage. Thus a pally gets some reasonably instant control and the dmg to generate the essential temp health. Vow of enmity needs to become a buff + damaging attack. Applied once it activates its buff, applied a second time it delivers a ranged attack. Both the buff and damaging portion have separate cooldowns. So if I go in PVP with CoP, buffed TW and changed VoE Im sure even a pally can do some damage.
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