Easy fix for pvp balance

demonmonger · January 2017

Easy fix to balance pvp

1. You cannot have a higher stat than the person with the lowest stat in any area.

This means if 10 people are playing
One has
35000 power
25000 power
8000 power
7000 power
14000 power
12000 power

All players would be set to 7000 power which is the lowest of everyone playing.

The same would happen for every stat in sequencial order before the countdown begins.

Even hit points

demonmonger · January 2017

Same would hold true for boons...
If a player was missing boons yours won't be active during that match.

demonmonger · January 2017

Problem solved.....

demonmonger · January 2017

Everyone gets the score of the highest tenacity player for their own tenacity.

Everyone gets the weapon set of the highest weapon set player is using.

Same for armor

Unknown · January 2017

This content has been removed.

demonmonger · January 2017

It should be a que option...

trentbail21 · January 2017

No way you could do this. People upgrade their gear to be better and this would cause Neverwinter to make A LOT less money which they wouldn't do.

demonmonger · January 2017

Same way we upgrade our gear and buy companions and upgrade our regeneration artifacts then poof one day they change regeneration to not work in combat, and poof they nerf our companions, and boom they nerf our gear.

It's all the same. At least this would be match specific nerfing. Not permanent.

But if there was an option to allow this equalizer balancer to pvp some people would select it.

crowdsourced · January 2017

This is a slightly more creative solution but it still points to the same root problem that many naive people argued against: gear differences. Gear gap was brought up a lot in the past and we've had people counter it stating gear isn't everything. Well it is the biggest factor going. I'd rather Cryptic just prevent armor switching during a PVP match and just use purely item level in matchmaking. I guarantee you we'd see a massive improvement in matchmaking. This isn't Counterstrike or Dota. Obviously there (were) a few truly gifted players who played this game, but to be one of the better players in a PVP guild doesn't require much skill. It requires you to have a fully geared character and a few tutorials.

demonmonger · January 2017

Item level does not always equate to power increase. Too many variables..

crowdsourced · January 2017

demonmonger said:
Item level does not always equate to power increase. Too many variables..

If you're still stating to use stats as the primary variable but limit it to 'Power' then I tend to agree. If you want to introduce more stuff to their algorithm then I'm going to argue that point.

tholan · January 2017

demonmonger said:
Easy fix to balance pvp

1. You cannot have a higher stat than the person with the lowest stat in any area.

This means if 10 people are playing

One has

35000 power

25000 power

8000 power

7000 power

14000 power

12000 power

All players would be set to 7000 power which is the lowest of everyone playing.

The same would happen for every stat in sequencial order before the countdown begins.

Even hit points

Ermmmm, sorry but no, i think that this one is the worst idea that ever seen here in the forum.
Let me explain why , every class use different build, someone has an higt crit build, another one use a build focused around power, another one instead is full tanky, and so on....every one of this build work because they have specific setup, their spell, rotation, item , power point for let their char work in a specific way, tht can be more dps, more cc, more tanky....

Now, following your suggestion, the build that use high crit will have 0 because the one with the tanky build have 0/low in crit, the one with tanky build will have 0/low in def/deflect becasue the one with high dps have 0 defence , and so one. No one will have their alt working in the way that was designed.

This will never work.

tholan · January 2017

But will be awesome see the contrary, instead of the lowest value, the highest one will be take, so everyone will have the highest stat in everything, their build will continue to work ( better ) and everyone will be dps/tanky/controller at the same time, no build or gs difference, muhahahahahhahahahaha

Unknown · January 2017

This content has been removed.

demonmonger · January 2017

Brainstorming is wonderful

trgluestickz · January 2017

lordnemesis1981 said:

demonmonger said:
Easy fix to balance pvp

1. You cannot have a higher stat than the person with the lowest stat in any area.

This means if 10 people are playing

One has

35000 power

25000 power

8000 power

7000 power

14000 power

12000 power

All players would be set to 7000 power which is the lowest of everyone playing.

The same would happen for every stat in sequencial order before the countdown begins.

Even hit points
Ermmmm, sorry but no, i think that this one is the worst idea that ever seen here in the forum.
Let me explain why , every class use different build, someone has an higt crit build, another one use a build focused around power, another one instead is full tanky, and so on....every one of this build work because they have specific setup, their spell, rotation, item , power point for let their char work in a specific way, tht can be more dps, more cc, more tanky....

Now, following your suggestion, the build that use high crit will have 0 because the one with the tanky build have 0/low in crit, the one with tanky build will have 0/low in def/deflect becasue the one with high dps have 0 defence , and so one. No one will have their alt working in the way that was designed.

This will never work.

Excellent point, honestly if this became a que option, it would likely not be that popular for this reason. It makes having a fixed build or play style nigh impossible since your stats drastically change every single match. This could be an interesting sort of challenge week event though. What if challenge of the gods had an update to it that was this unpredictable pvp que option or something similar? After all, both this que idea and challenge of the gods are essentially ways to say "look mom, no hands" and test your ability to adapt to inconvenience.

demonmonger said:
It should be a que option...

This could be an interesting idea as a separate que, not sure its really needed though and I wouldn't want it in place of better new ways to que. I am however not opposed to having this as an option if the pvp community ever becomes numerous enough to support a long list of different que options. Its definitely possible for a long que list to to become reality if many other major pvp fixes and a few of the most needed que options are successfully introduced and the pvp community grows to fit their new shoes.

ilusiphur · January 2017

trgluestickz said:

lordnemesis1981 said:

demonmonger said:
Easy fix to balance pvp

1. You cannot have a higher stat than the person with the lowest stat in any area.

This means if 10 people are playing

One has

35000 power

25000 power

8000 power

7000 power

14000 power

12000 power

All players would be set to 7000 power which is the lowest of everyone playing.

The same would happen for every stat in sequencial order before the countdown begins.

Even hit points
Ermmmm, sorry but no, i think that this one is the worst idea that ever seen here in the forum.
Let me explain why , every class use different build, someone has an higt crit build, another one use a build focused around power, another one instead is full tanky, and so on....every one of this build work because they have specific setup, their spell, rotation, item , power point for let their char work in a specific way, tht can be more dps, more cc, more tanky....

Now, following your suggestion, the build that use high crit will have 0 because the one with the tanky build have 0/low in crit, the one with tanky build will have 0/low in def/deflect becasue the one with high dps have 0 defence , and so one. No one will have their alt working in the way that was designed.

This will never work.
Excellent point, honestly if this became a que option, it would likely not be that popular for this reason. It makes having a fixed build or play style nigh impossible since your stats drastically change every single match. This could be an interesting sort of challenge week event though. What if challenge of the gods had an update to it that was this unpredictable pvp que option or something similar? After all, both this que idea and challenge of the gods are essentially ways to say "look mom, no hands" and test your ability to adapt to inconvenience.
demonmonger said:
It should be a que option...
This could be an interesting idea as a separate que, not sure its really needed though and I wouldn't want it in place of better new ways to que. I am however not opposed to having this as an option if the pvp community ever becomes numerous enough to support a long list of different que options. Its definitely possible for a long que list to to become reality if many other major pvp fixes and a few of the most needed que options are successfully introduced and the pvp community grows to fit their new shoes.

Since many new players have not invested heavily in any particular build, this would not be a problem for PUG players. The fact that many of the high lvl PvP guild player would not be interested, this could be a safe place for the new players that are currently avoiding Pvp to come so that they can learn & experiment. +1

trgluestickz · January 2017

demonmonger said:
Item level does not always equate to power increase. Too many variables..

crowdsourced#3904 said:
This is a slightly more creative solution but it still points to the same root problem that many naive people argued against: gear differences. Gear gap was brought up a lot in the past and we've had people counter it stating gear isn't everything. Well it is the biggest factor going. I'd rather Cryptic just prevent armor switching during a PVP match and just use purely item level in matchmaking. I guarantee you we'd see a massive improvement in matchmaking. This isn't Counterstrike or Dota. Obviously there (were) a few truly gifted players who played this game, but to be one of the better players in a PVP guild doesn't require much skill. It requires you to have a fully geared character and a few tutorials.

Here is a simple way to make IL a much more accurate stat measurement: The devs should make the numerous stat sources that don't currently add anything to your item level, grant item level points. Boons should count towards your item level, guild boons should add a huge boost to your item level as they increase, mount stat increases by quality should count, insignias by quality should count, companions by quality should count, and companion gear/enchants/runestones by rank and quality should count. This would of course inflate how big the max item level number (4.3k) is but the current gated content and match making could be easily adjusted to accommodate the new numbers. For companions and their gear/enchants/runestones, those should have their IL increases toggled off in pvp types that disable companions to keep the numbers true to what can be used in pvp.

IL is still not able to measure skill but gear/mounts/boons are undeniably a major factor in pvp. If IL is more accurate, then it will at least make the current content gating less arbitrary and make IL more accurate if implemented into match making systems.

trgluestickz · January 2017

Deleted this post, didn't think it through all the way and it did not add much.

Unknown · January 2017

This content has been removed.

trgluestickz · January 2017

clonkyo1 said:

trgluestickz said:

Here is a simple way to make IL a much more accurate stat measurement: The devs should make the numerous stat sources that don't currently add anything to your item level, grant item level points. Boons should count towards your item level, guild boons should add a huge boost to your item level as they increase, mount stat increases by quality should count, insignias by quality should count, companions by quality should count, and companion gear/enchants/runestones by rank and quality should count. This would of course inflate how big the max item level number (4.3k) is but the current gated content and match making could be easily adjusted to accommodate the new numbers. For companions and their gear/enchants/runestones, those should have their IL increases toggled off in pvp types that disable companions to keep the numbers true to what can be used in pvp.

IL is still not able to measure skill but gear/mounts/boons are undeniably a major factor in pvp. If IL is more accurate, then it will at least make the current content gating less arbitrary and make IL more accurate if implemented into match making systems.
We had it pre mod6: was called "gear score" which was based on "stats amounts" instead of "gear level" as it is nowadays. I were advocating to bring it back for that very same reason: our actual IL system doesn't show our real power at all. Basically, a 4.1k IL without boons, just gear, is just that, a 4.1k IL char BUT, a 2.6k IL with all boons, insignias and all that stuff can be, in fact, even bigger than that 4.1k IL char.

(The difference betwenn a 4.2k IL char without any boon compared to a char with the same IL but wearing all the "gear gap" stuff is like 2.5k IL higher, minimum)

I was not aware that we already had this system in place once, I wish they would bring it back if what you say is correct.

I vaguely remember when gear score was a thing. I did not know much about gear score vs item level other than that the numbers were a lot bigger than they are now. I was still a green and blue geared pug at the time.

abaddon · January 2017

trgluestickz said:

clonkyo1 said:

trgluestickz said:

Here is a simple way to make IL a much more accurate stat measurement: The devs should make the numerous stat sources that don't currently add anything to your item level, grant item level points. Boons should count towards your item level, guild boons should add a huge boost to your item level as they increase, mount stat increases by quality should count, insignias by quality should count, companions by quality should count, and companion gear/enchants/runestones by rank and quality should count. This would of course inflate how big the max item level number (4.3k) is but the current gated content and match making could be easily adjusted to accommodate the new numbers. For companions and their gear/enchants/runestones, those should have their IL increases toggled off in pvp types that disable companions to keep the numbers true to what can be used in pvp.

IL is still not able to measure skill but gear/mounts/boons are undeniably a major factor in pvp. If IL is more accurate, then it will at least make the current content gating less arbitrary and make IL more accurate if implemented into match making systems.
We had it pre mod6: was called "gear score" which was based on "stats amounts" instead of "gear level" as it is nowadays. I were advocating to bring it back for that very same reason: our actual IL system doesn't show our real power at all. Basically, a 4.1k IL without boons, just gear, is just that, a 4.1k IL char BUT, a 2.6k IL with all boons, insignias and all that stuff can be, in fact, even bigger than that 4.1k IL char.

(The difference betwenn a 4.2k IL char without any boon compared to a char with the same IL but wearing all the "gear gap" stuff is like 2.5k IL higher, minimum)
I was not aware that we already had this system in place once, I wish they would bring it back if what you say is correct.

I vaguely remember when gear score was a thing. I did not know much about gear score vs item level other than that the numbers were a lot bigger than they are now. I was still a green and blue geared pug at the time.

they got rid of gearscore in the hopes it would get rid of the dungeon discrimination, which naturally didnt fix anything.

ayroux · January 2017

I dislike the idea OP. There are better ways to do what you want here.

lordnemesis1981 said:
But will be awesome see the contrary, instead of the lowest value, the highest one will be take, so everyone will have the highest stat in everything, their build will continue to work ( better ) and everyone will be dps/tanky/controller at the same time, no build or gs difference, muhahahahahhahahahaha

All this does is further the problem by increasing stat inflation. You would see premades going in stacking all stats to the MAX, having everyone with 30-40k across. This would break the game IMO.

A BETTER solution, is actually very simple.
- Normalize tenacity. Remove all tenacity on ALL gear, give it instead to each player as a "base" regardless of gear. So now players can use ANY gear going into PVP. They will all have the same level of tenacity. PVP gear is merely 1 alternative options that adds not extra "tenacity" value.

- Normalize stats. The easiest way to do this? Remove ALL boons from PVP (exception being the PVP only boons). I would ADD to this, to remove Insignias and mount bonuses as well. This creates a very level playing field for all players. It wont matter if you are 2 weeks into the game and dont have all your boons, it wont matter if your not in a maxed guild or not, etc. ALL players can be "competitive" based on their gear. The stat difference in gear? Isnt very much - compared to all the other stat inflation.

- Make Matchmaking based on ITEMLEVEL now that Itemlevel encompasses all "factors" of power that will impact your character in PVP. Boons? Dont factor into Ilevel today, Mount bonuses? Dont factor into Ilevel... Once you remove all the stats that dont count as "itemlevel" you can now make itemlevel a major factor in matching PVP games. Result? Much more balanced PVP.

This would solve the PVP issues - largely. After that, you might need a few minor tweaks to class balance but for the most part, stripping everyone of all the stat inflation will normalize the classes quite a bit and I dont see any of them really being Insanely OP.

dmcewen · January 2017

@ayroux gets it, remove all the inflation. 99.9% of the community would be opposed to these suggestion, they want to keep the pug stomping train rolling. They don't want balance.

ayroux · January 2017

dmcewen said:
@ayroux gets it, remove all the inflation. 99.9% of the community would be opposed to these suggestion, they want to keep the pug stomping train rolling. They don't want balance.

Eh, I think the "community" might back it more than you think....

Anyways the EASIEST thing to do ist just create some new PVP Event for 2 weeks in which there is the current normal Que, and then another "Vanilla" Que (where all the stat inflation goes away) and see which one is more popular.

I think most people would play the "Normalized" Que, not the current one.

crowdsourced · January 2017

dmcewen said:
99.9% of the community would be opposed to these suggestion, they want to keep the pug stomping train rolling. They don't want balance.

While this is true, PVP population is really down right now and people would rather it have more players first

demonmonger · January 2017

Balance in the full aspect of the word can't ever happen...

sh00termcl0vin · January 2017

Gear progression is part of the game and makes the company money. Normalizing stats would undermine this whole process. Advocating for better class balance would be better served rather then trying to ask for something that will never happen. Besides gear gap can be overcome given enough time, class imbalances cannot.

waywardwizard · January 2017

> @demonmonger said:
> Easy fix to balance pvp
>
> 1. You cannot have a higher stat than the person with the lowest stat in any area.
>
> This means if 10 people are playing
> One has
> 35000 power
> 25000 power
> 8000 power
> 7000 power
> 14000 power
> 12000 power
>
> All players would be set to 7000 power which is the lowest of everyone playing.
>
> The same would happen for every stat in sequencial order before the countdown begins.
>
> Even hit points

Equalizing player STATs before the match starts regardless of their source (boons,items,mounts etc). Perfect at first glance. However what about the trinity? Dps, tanks and healers will have the same offensive and defensive numbers and that is sub-optimal. This requires more in-depth system then simply putting everybody into the same mould.

demonmonger · January 2017

Just a brain teaser

demonmonger · January 2017

There is no way pvp can be balanced even if we all had same stats just because of how different the weapon and armor enchantments work.

Easy fix for pvp balance

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