I don't really see having a "rainbow team" as a bad thing, TBH... and this is what Tyrion is asking for.
I'm not saying its bad either. In fact, I want every single 5-man premade vs 5-man premade game to have rainbow comps. I just think this wouldn't solve anything for solo queues. I think normalizing the gear or matchmaking based on gearscore is the way to go at this point in time.
Class stacking has been talked about and pointed out as one of the main problems in PVP and I absolutely agree 2 of a class should not be on the same party. That being said any player can say " - hey, I like to play pvp with my friend and we both main gf/hr/tr.. etc". Genuine or not it doesn't matter, they have the right to play the way they want to play. I don't think even half the changes we suggest will ever make it into the game since pvp in Neverwinter is of minor consequence to the devs by their own admission.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Forcing rainbows wouldn't be a thing if they just put diminishing returns on CC. The strongest things in PvP right now is CC stacking, two oppressors, two courage break rogues, two trappers etc. Because you literally can spam CC effects with no need for timing or consideration for when your teammates have their big damage powers available.
Every other MMOs that has control effects in PvP has DR in place to prevent just this sort of thing except neverwinter. Of course they don't really care much for PvP otherwise it would have been designed this way from the very beginning.
In actuality a single wizard can spam push you, a single trapper can perma root you (unless unstoppable/itc). Diminishing returns is nice sure but how about just making tenacity do what its supposed to do. Nobody should be perma or near perma cc_ed while wearing full pvp gear.
BTW Champions Online, Cryptic's other game, does have diminishing cc in pvp.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Class stacking has been talked about and pointed out as one of the main problems in PVP and I absolutely agree 2 of a class should not be on the same party. That being said any player can say " - hey, I like to play pvp with my friend and we both main gf/hr/tr.. etc". Genuine or not it doesn't matter, they have the right to play the way they want to play. I don't think even half the changes we suggest will ever make it into the game since pvp in Neverwinter is of minor consequence to the devs by their own admission.
That's why this thread is about "SoloQ", not about "premades". 2v2 + teams are considered "premades", so, don't see why should talk about them when the main concern on this thread is "players Qing on PvP by themselves". ^^U
Oh my bad, I had no idea you knew better than the op what his thread was about. Anyway I read over thru most of the posts here and some, including the op himself talk both about soloQ and premade matches. The title itself is about ''pvp'' without specifications so Im curious clonkyo old boy why would you feel correcting me when I dont need correcting is the right course of action?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I don't think even half the changes we suggest will ever make it into the game since pvp in Neverwinter is of minor consequence to the devs by their own admission.
where is the quote from the devs supporting this comment ?
by their own admission where? ......
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Then it makes less sense and importance to implement this. I'm all for forcing rainbow compositions in premade vs premade games (which will benefit 2 guilds due to the fact that so many players and guilds have quit the game) but solo/duo queues are determined by which team has the PVP guild players and 4000 gearscore characters. The queue takes too long and the game is barely alive for Cryptic to make their matchmaking system more specific.
Sorry, but i disagree on that sense. What Tyrion is saying is a simple and good thing for the really low health on PvP: As the same as PvE soloQ "forces" (notice quotes) 1 DC, 1 tank and 3 DPS from different classes (in theory. XD) to enter into a dungeon (any dungeon), the same should be done with PvP (not taking into account the IL or the "tenacity req" parts, ofc). How many of us have entered into PvP with not a DC on our team while 2 DCs were banded together on enemy's? (And trust me, i saw this happening on non-premade teams) . I don't really see having a "rainbow team" as a bad thing, TBH... and this is what Tyrion is asking for.
PVE also has the private queue option to enter with whatever you wish.
I don't think even half the changes we suggest will ever make it into the game since pvp in Neverwinter is of minor consequence to the devs by their own admission.
where is the quote from the devs supporting this comment ?
by their own admission where? ......
At least 3 years of accumulated outrage, suggestions etc ignored by Cryptic pretty much tells me they dont care about pvp. If that changes in the future fine, till then I stand by what I said. Silence is an answer too, cant be quoted tho sorry.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
0
forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
Could a decent compromise be that when five solo queued players are matched, they won't be matched with someone of the same class, but if two friends with same class mains want to queue together, they could do so? I realize this won't stop troll pm comps, but it should make life in the arena a bit more tolerable.
PVP has always been plagued by the stacking of the most OP damage classes or the tankiest classes. All PVP should be forced into taking one of each class forever more. Stacking classes in a party throws off the balance of any matches it occurs in. Sometimes in favor of the stacked team, sometimes in favor of the non stacked team. Let's finally balance this once and for all please.
I would offer the obvious evidence that 2 TRs = 2 SB and CB, 2 HRs = 2 PG and 2 Piercing blade/Blade Hurricane, 2 GFs = 2 BC and 2 Griffons wrath/anvil, 2 CWs = 2 repels and 2 entangle, 2 DC = 2 AA and 2 AS, 2 Pally = 2 Bubble and 2 BL/Healing Sanctuary, 2 SW = 2 WB and 2 Shadowslip for rotations, 2 GWF = 2 Sprint for rotations and 2 Daggers/Mark.
While the discussion of which classes need adjusting is important, it's much less noticeable when there are forced rainbows as you can't stack OP or strong mechanics in your teams' favor. This has been asked for by PVPers since mod 0. This was partially addressed a couple mods back when you could no longer stack 5 of a class but let's go ahead and completely fix this altogether.
The only counter argument I've heard that has any merit is the "I prefer to play with friends who play the same class". To which I would simply say, "do so in a dungeon then", although if you and your friend both play DC or GF or OP then you'll likely have some difficulty even doing that. These games are meant to have diverse groups so that you manage your abilities to benefit and or augment your group. I would suggest it's more important that there is overarching balance rather than the few people who chose to play the same classes as their friends get to stack their parties.
If you agree please give me a plus, if not please let me know why.
Thanks for your time.
*Addendum: For reference I would like to define a few terms here for those unfamiliar with their use. 1) Rainbow comp = no two of any class, can be any grouping of the 8 classes. 2) Matched Rainbow comp = no two of any class with the same classes being on both teams (i.e. classic comp GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC vs GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC). Can be any mixture but both teams must have the same classes. 3) Premade PVP = two groups that have agreed to fight with comps agreed upon. 4) Group or guild PVP (Which is called Premade in the vernacular but not classically by PVP guilds) often winds up against pugs may luck into another group or guild PVP group and have a decent fight.
At least in part, I disagree.
I have found myself frustrated many times with the overly huge impact that class composition poses in pvp. Obviously something needs to be done but I disagree with the idea of banning 2 classes of the same type from being on the same team altogether. A lot of people have friends of the same class they like to play with and it would really suck not to be able to play alongside anyone that shares your class. I think you underplayed just how much that would suck for people and also made it out like it was only a minority of people who often play with friends with the same class when that is unlikely to be the case. The dungeon example you used you also immediately dismantled in the lines directly after that I should mention.
A really good idea to consider would be making it so the new solo que when its released in permanent form is rainbow compositions only or matched rainbow compositions only. This would not clash with people who want to play with friends of the same class as them since you aren't supposed to be queuing in with a buddy or premade anyway.
One other idea for the normal dom que would be to better limit how many classes with the same role type can be on the same team. For example, you can have 2 DCs on a team but if you do that, you cannot also add an OP. Likewise if you have 2 OPs on the same team, you cannot also add a DC. If you have 2 GFs, you can only have 1 of an additional support class. With striker classes, you should never be able to put more than 3 on the same team and there should only be able to be X 2 of a single striker class per team. You can only have 3 strikers if there are no controllers on your team. if there are 2 controllers, you cannot also have 2 strikers of the same type. I'm sure these examples could be tweaked to make them better and this model is a little rough but its a start.
Another idea that may be easier to implement than the above is to make it so you can have 2 of the same class but only if your team does not already have 2 of some other class. So if you want to take 2 GFs or 2 HRs or 2 of whatever else, you can do that but you can't have 2 of anything else.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
PVP has always been plagued by the stacking of the most OP damage classes or the tankiest classes. All PVP should be forced into taking one of each class forever more. Stacking classes in a party throws off the balance of any matches it occurs in. Sometimes in favor of the stacked team, sometimes in favor of the non stacked team. Let's finally balance this once and for all please.
I would offer the obvious evidence that 2 TRs = 2 SB and CB, 2 HRs = 2 PG and 2 Piercing blade/Blade Hurricane, 2 GFs = 2 BC and 2 Griffons wrath/anvil, 2 CWs = 2 repels and 2 entangle, 2 DC = 2 AA and 2 AS, 2 Pally = 2 Bubble and 2 BL/Healing Sanctuary, 2 SW = 2 WB and 2 Shadowslip for rotations, 2 GWF = 2 Sprint for rotations and 2 Daggers/Mark.
While the discussion of which classes need adjusting is important, it's much less noticeable when there are forced rainbows as you can't stack OP or strong mechanics in your teams' favor. This has been asked for by PVPers since mod 0. This was partially addressed a couple mods back when you could no longer stack 5 of a class but let's go ahead and completely fix this altogether.
The only counter argument I've heard that has any merit is the "I prefer to play with friends who play the same class". To which I would simply say, "do so in a dungeon then", although if you and your friend both play DC or GF or OP then you'll likely have some difficulty even doing that. These games are meant to have diverse groups so that you manage your abilities to benefit and or augment your group. I would suggest it's more important that there is overarching balance rather than the few people who chose to play the same classes as their friends get to stack their parties.
If you agree please give me a plus, if not please let me know why.
Thanks for your time.
*Addendum: For reference I would like to define a few terms here for those unfamiliar with their use. 1) Rainbow comp = no two of any class, can be any grouping of the 8 classes. 2) Matched Rainbow comp = no two of any class with the same classes being on both teams (i.e. classic comp GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC vs GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC). Can be any mixture but both teams must have the same classes. 3) Premade PVP = two groups that have agreed to fight with comps agreed upon. 4) Group or guild PVP (Which is called Premade in the vernacular but not classically by PVP guilds) often winds up against pugs may luck into another group or guild PVP group and have a decent fight.
At least in part, I disagree.
I have found myself frustrated many times with the overly huge impact that class composition poses in pvp. Obviously something needs to be done but I disagree with the idea of banning 2 classes of the same type from being on the same team altogether. A lot of people have friends of the same class they like to play with and it would really suck not to be able to play alongside anyone that shares your class. I think you underplayed just how much that would suck for people and also made it out like it was only a minority of people who often play with friends with the same class when that is unlikely to be the case. The dungeon example you used you also immediately dismantled in the lines directly after that I should mention.
A really good idea to consider would be making it so the new solo que when its released in permanent form is rainbow compositions only or matched rainbow compositions only. This would not clash with people who want to play with friends of the same class as them since you aren't supposed to be queuing in with a buddy or premade anyway.
One other idea for the normal dom que would be to better limit how many classes with the same role type can be on the same team. For example, you can have 2 DCs on a team but if you do that, you cannot also add an OP. Likewise if you have 2 OPs on the same team, you cannot also add a DC. If you have 2 GFs, you can only have 1 of an additional support class. With striker classes, you should never be able to put more than 3 on the same team and there should only be able to be X 2 of a single striker class per team. You can only have 3 strikers if there are no controllers on your team. if there are 2 controllers, you cannot also have 2 strikers of the same type. I'm sure these examples could be tweaked to make them better and this model is a little rough but its a start.
Another idea that may be easier to implement than the above is to make it so you can have 2 of the same class but only if your team does not already have 2 of some other class. So if you want to take 2 GFs or 2 HRs or 2 of whatever else, you can do that but you can't have 2 of anything else.
The idea that friends of the same class can't play with each other has come up a couple times now. I don't think this is a good argument. Every account comes with 2 free character slots. The majority of players have purchased additional slots for farming alts. Unless an account is set up specifically to test the differences between different build of the same class, if two friends want to play rainbow, all they have to do is pick an alt & away they go.
The idea that friends of the same class can't play with each other has come up a couple times now. Every account comes with 2 free character slots.
This is one of the worst arguments. Character slots are dirt cheap, gearing up characters however is time-consuming and expensive. If this was 2013 and I was getting 1-5 million diamonds per Castle Never run depending on whether the Trickster Rogue mainhand weapon dropped, I'd understand it more.
(Yes newbies, there was a time when running PVE was actually worth it)
1
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Some if us have 1 character to play and don't want alts...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
1
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
If we want to have 5 tr vs 5 tr, we should be able to.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
If we want to have 5 tr vs 5 tr, we should be able to.
Havign that as a seperate option sounds feasable and would be a nice additon to the game. It would need to be matched comps if this became a thing. Allowing 5 of the same class or really more than 2 of the same class would be disasterous if the oposing team did not have the same combination.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
The idea that friends of the same class can't play with each other has come up a couple times now. Every account comes with 2 free character slots.
This is one of the worst arguments. Character slots are dirt cheap, gearing up characters however is time-consuming and expensive. If this was 2013 and I was getting 1-5 million diamonds per Castle Never run depending on whether the Trickster Rogue mainhand weapon dropped, I'd understand it more.
(Yes newbies, there was a time when running PVE was actually worth it)
+1
I have done a lot of grinding, spent countless hours playing, and payed a lot of money to get my main character to 4.3k and keep her up to date. I have never brought a single alt of mine to above 2.2k because in order to keep my main updated for pvp, I poured everything into my main. I know some people do have multaple geared alts but that is no easy feat. Some people don't enjoy playing other classes and not everyone has an alt army nor should that be a requirment to be able to play alongside a freind with your class. Its harder to get an alt geared for pvp than it is for pve as well since you need a lot more gear to fight other geared people in pvp than you need for holding your own in pve. Not to mention the time needed to get boons or earn other time gated benifits on each character and keep up with a mountain of dailies, invoking, and everything else. It is getting harder to gear up alts not easier as the list of items you need just keeps getting longer and items you already have often become outdated and need to be replaced, something that is rarely cheep to do. Rewards you get from playing the game are also in the toilet right now as well so raising the money in game for alts is a ridiculous amount of effort if you did not already have the AD or pay an additonal buttload of money on top of the expenses of your main.
I understand that pvp needs to be improved and I am doing my part to offer sugestions on how to do so alongside the other people on this thread but completly banning 2 of the same class and forcing rainbow comps in all forms of 5vs5 pvp is not a good solution. Bigger team sized pvp types are almost dead right now and unless that changes, cannot provide a resonable outlet for those wanting to que in with a freind of their same class either.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
The idea that friends of the same class can't play with each other has come up a couple times now. Every account comes with 2 free character slots.
This is one of the worst arguments. Character slots are dirt cheap, gearing up characters however is time-consuming and expensive. If this was 2013 and I was getting 1-5 million diamonds per Castle Never run depending on whether the Trickster Rogue mainhand weapon dropped, I'd understand it more.
(Yes newbies, there was a time when running PVE was actually worth it)
It's nice to see someone admit that running PvP if you haven't spent hundreds of dollars, or hours, upgrading to BIS is not very much fun. Thanks!
Well we already have them to some degree. You can't Queue with 5 of a class anymore so I would say that the Devs already see the wisdom in limiting classes Queuing together, I'm afraid they just didn't go quite far enough.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
The idea that friends of the same class can't play with each other has come up a couple times now. Every account comes with 2 free character slots.
This is one of the worst arguments. Character slots are dirt cheap, gearing up characters however is time-consuming and expensive. If this was 2013 and I was getting 1-5 million diamonds per Castle Never run depending on whether the Trickster Rogue mainhand weapon dropped, I'd understand it more.
(Yes newbies, there was a time when running PVE was actually worth it)
+1
I have done a lot of grinding, spent countless hours playing, and payed a lot of money to get my main character to 4.3k and keep her up to date. I have never brought a single alt of mine to above 2.2k because in order to keep my main updated for pvp, I poured everything into my main. I know some people do have multaple geared alts but that is no easy feat. Some people don't enjoy playing other classes and not everyone has an alt army nor should that be a requirment to be able to play alongside a freind with your class. Its harder to get an alt geared for pvp than it is for pve as well since you need a lot more gear to fight other geared people in pvp than you need for holding your own in pve. Not to mention the time needed to get boons or earn other time gated benifits on each character and keep up with a mountain of dailies, invoking, and everything else. It is getting harder to gear up alts not easier as the list of items you need just keeps getting longer and items you already have often become outdated and need to be replaced, something that is rarely cheep to do. Rewards you get from playing the game are also in the toilet right now as well so raising the money in game for alts is a ridiculous amount of effort if you did not already have the AD or pay an additonal buttload of money on top of the expenses of your main.
I understand that pvp needs to be improved and I am doing my part to offer sugestions on how to do so alongside the other people on this thread but completly banning 2 of the same class and forcing rainbow comps in all forms of 5vs5 pvp is not a good solution. Bigger team sized pvp types are almost dead right now and unless that changes, cannot provide a resonable outlet for those wanting to que in with a freind of their same class either.
While I sympathize with your plight I don't think it's a strong argument. For example if you main a DC, a GF, or a Pally and your friend does as well you won't Queue for PVE most likely because you'll sacrifice DPS for the group with too many tanks or heals (ofc there are discussions that could be had about DCs right now because of AA but that is only because AA spam is OP in PVE).
What I mean is, you already play a game that limits, by Queue, classes both in PVE and PVP. This is intended because the content is best built for a Tank, healer, DPS setup. It is variation that gives the game dimension. PVP is the same, when you allow two of a class you then potentially moot out the other team because of overstacking specific abilities.
Another way of looking at it is the Queue already limits you, if you have 2 friends who play TR and you do as well, you can't all play together. So one of you must play a different class or simply Queue separately. Simply put, there is a reason class stacking is limited. The devs recognize it and PVPers do as well. It's pretty plain and I believe that sacrificing game balancing for the sake of a few individuals who refuse to Queue without their same class friend is not appropriate.
Priority must be given to balance first, then to requests for QOL improvements, like playing with friends of the same class. In this instance balance is to limit the Q to rainbows imho.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I will add this as an addendum to my original post but I think giving this type of Q a week trial could either prove it's efficacy or reveal it's flaws. I would suggest a week or 2 trial like Solo Q.
In the worst case scenario people prefer not to Q rainbow and nothing changes. In the best case scenario players discover that this small change "fixes" some of the issues associated with balancing teams, comps, and matches by limiting troll comps and spreading players of varying ELO but high IL (due to poor Q mechanics) to both teams.
If you'd be willing to try it for a week, now's the time to say so.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Another way of looking at it is the Queue already limits you, if you have 2 friends who play TR and you do as well, you can't all play together. So one of you must play a different class or simply Queue separately. Simply put, there is a reason class stacking is limited. The devs recognize it and PVPers do as well. It's pretty plain and I believe that sacrificing game balancing for the sake of a few individuals who refuse to Queue without their same class friend is not appropriate.
The thing is, Cryptic already made a big compromise by limiting to 2 classes per party. I agree with that change and I think that's the best solution for now. People want to play with friends but at the same time, we cannot have 5 Trickster Rogue parties ruining the game in PVP. Limiting classes also indirectly buffs and normalizes every class since you cannot just stack the overpowered ones.
Now to take that further and completely prevent people from queueing up with their friends is pushing the envelope even further. Cryptic doesn't like to do that often and if they were going to limit something to help with solo queues, I'd say normalizing the gear is a better route to go instead of focusing on rainbow parties.
Another way of looking at it is the Queue already limits you, if you have 2 friends who play TR and you do as well, you can't all play together. So one of you must play a different class or simply Queue separately. Simply put, there is a reason class stacking is limited. The devs recognize it and PVPers do as well. It's pretty plain and I believe that sacrificing game balancing for the sake of a few individuals who refuse to Queue without their same class friend is not appropriate.
The thing is, Cryptic already made a big compromise by limiting to 2 classes per party. I agree with that change and I think that's the best solution for now. People want to play with friends but at the same time, we cannot have 5 Trickster Rogue parties ruining the game in PVP. Limiting classes also indirectly buffs and normalizes every class since you cannot just stack the overpowered ones.
Now to take that further and completely prevent people from queueing up with their friends is pushing the envelope even further. Cryptic doesn't like to do that often and if they were going to limit something to help with solo queues, I'd say normalizing the gear is a better route to go instead of focusing on rainbow parties.
As I stated before gear is the biggest issue, but that is not the intention of this post to address that. It is too lengthy a discussion to tie in to this one. So, without getting off topic I would redirect you to my earlier statement that if your only argument is that it may prevent you from Queuing with a friend (as I said, I sympathize) in a troll comp then what if you have 2 friends who both play the same class? or three?
You see how quickly that argument falls in on itself? Allowing troll comps like 2 GFs, 2HRs or TRs, and a DC to exist solely so that people can Queue for PVP with their friends is favoring a few at the expense of the whole. I think this is an attempt to garner sympathy but not a truly strong argument against balance.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
As I stated before gear is the biggest issue, but that is not the intention of this post to address that. It is too lengthy a discussion to tie in to this one. So, without getting off topic I would redirect you to my earlier statement that if your only argument is that it may prevent you from Queuing with a friend (as I said, I sympathize) in a troll comp then what if you have 2 friends who both play the same class?
As I've said before, there is no perfect solution for this but Cryptic made a compromise that I agreed with. They allowed one duplicate class per party.
You see how quickly that argument falls in on itself? Allowing troll comps like 2 GFs, 2HRs or TRs, and a DC to exist solely so that people can Queue for PVP with their friends is favoring a few at the expense of the whole. I think this is an attempt to garner sympathy but not a truly strong argument against balance.
You are correct and that what I was aiming at with my latest response. I think forcing rainbows generates more equality and indirect normalization of classes. However Cryptic might want to pick their battles in what they limit. They cannot put "you cannot queue with your same-class friends anymore" in a bullet point. Honestly, I don't think it helps balance solo and duo queues that much because of the gear difference. What I'm trying to say is I understand Cryptic's point of view and you'd need a better argument . You just listed 4 different classes that are 'op' and 'troll'. Is 2x GF that much better than GF and TR? Is 2 HRs that much better than having a TR and DC? What about the team with the oppressor CW to steal nodes?
I guess you can make the argument that it future-proofs class balance in case Cryptic screws up again and makes a singular class overpowered compared to everyone else. However, to counter me agreeing with you, I have to bring up the argument that forcing rainbows forces longer queues and fewer matches.
Comments
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
BTW Champions Online, Cryptic's other game, does have diminishing cc in pvp.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
by their own admission where? ......
PVE also has the private queue option to enter with whatever you wish.
That would be premades
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I realize this won't stop troll pm comps, but it should make life in the arena a bit more tolerable.
I have found myself frustrated many times with the overly huge impact that class composition poses in pvp. Obviously something needs to be done but I disagree with the idea of banning 2 classes of the same type from being on the same team altogether. A lot of people have friends of the same class they like to play with and it would really suck not to be able to play alongside anyone that shares your class. I think you underplayed just how much that would suck for people and also made it out like it was only a minority of people who often play with friends with the same class when that is unlikely to be the case. The dungeon example you used you also immediately dismantled in the lines directly after that I should mention.
A really good idea to consider would be making it so the new solo que when its released in permanent form is rainbow compositions only or matched rainbow compositions only. This would not clash with people who want to play with friends of the same class as them since you aren't supposed to be queuing in with a buddy or premade anyway.
One other idea for the normal dom que would be to better limit how many classes with the same role type can be on the same team. For example, you can have 2 DCs on a team but if you do that, you cannot also add an OP. Likewise if you have 2 OPs on the same team, you cannot also add a DC. If you have 2 GFs, you can only have 1 of an additional support class. With striker classes, you should never be able to put more than 3 on the same team and there should only be able to be X 2 of a single striker class per team. You can only have 3 strikers if there are no controllers on your team. if there are 2 controllers, you cannot also have 2 strikers of the same type. I'm sure these examples could be tweaked to make them better and this model is a little rough but its a start.
Another idea that may be easier to implement than the above is to make it so you can have 2 of the same class but only if your team does not already have 2 of some other class. So if you want to take 2 GFs or 2 HRs or 2 of whatever else, you can do that but you can't have 2 of anything else.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
(Yes newbies, there was a time when running PVE was actually worth it)
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I have done a lot of grinding, spent countless hours playing, and payed a lot of money to get my main character to 4.3k and keep her up to date. I have never brought a single alt of mine to above 2.2k because in order to keep my main updated for pvp, I poured everything into my main. I know some people do have multaple geared alts but that is no easy feat. Some people don't enjoy playing other classes and not everyone has an alt army nor should that be a requirment to be able to play alongside a freind with your class. Its harder to get an alt geared for pvp than it is for pve as well since you need a lot more gear to fight other geared people in pvp than you need for holding your own in pve. Not to mention the time needed to get boons or earn other time gated benifits on each character and keep up with a mountain of dailies, invoking, and everything else. It is getting harder to gear up alts not easier as the list of items you need just keeps getting longer and items you already have often become outdated and need to be replaced, something that is rarely cheep to do. Rewards you get from playing the game are also in the toilet right now as well so raising the money in game for alts is a ridiculous amount of effort if you did not already have the AD or pay an additonal buttload of money on top of the expenses of your main.
I understand that pvp needs to be improved and I am doing my part to offer sugestions on how to do so alongside the other people on this thread but completly banning 2 of the same class and forcing rainbow comps in all forms of 5vs5 pvp is not a good solution. Bigger team sized pvp types are almost dead right now and unless that changes, cannot provide a resonable outlet for those wanting to que in with a freind of their same class either.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
What I mean is, you already play a game that limits, by Queue, classes both in PVE and PVP. This is intended because the content is best built for a Tank, healer, DPS setup. It is variation that gives the game dimension. PVP is the same, when you allow two of a class you then potentially moot out the other team because of overstacking specific abilities.
Another way of looking at it is the Queue already limits you, if you have 2 friends who play TR and you do as well, you can't all play together. So one of you must play a different class or simply Queue separately. Simply put, there is a reason class stacking is limited. The devs recognize it and PVPers do as well. It's pretty plain and I believe that sacrificing game balancing for the sake of a few individuals who refuse to Queue without their same class friend is not appropriate.
Priority must be given to balance first, then to requests for QOL improvements, like playing with friends of the same class. In this instance balance is to limit the Q to rainbows imho.
In the worst case scenario people prefer not to Q rainbow and nothing changes. In the best case scenario players discover that this small change "fixes" some of the issues associated with balancing teams, comps, and matches by limiting troll comps and spreading players of varying ELO but high IL (due to poor Q mechanics) to both teams.
If you'd be willing to try it for a week, now's the time to say so.
Now to take that further and completely prevent people from queueing up with their friends is pushing the envelope even further. Cryptic doesn't like to do that often and if they were going to limit something to help with solo queues, I'd say normalizing the gear is a better route to go instead of focusing on rainbow parties.
You see how quickly that argument falls in on itself? Allowing troll comps like 2 GFs, 2HRs or TRs, and a DC to exist solely so that people can Queue for PVP with their friends is favoring a few at the expense of the whole. I think this is an attempt to garner sympathy but not a truly strong argument against balance.
I guess you can make the argument that it future-proofs class balance in case Cryptic screws up again and makes a singular class overpowered compared to everyone else. However, to counter me agreeing with you, I have to bring up the argument that forcing rainbows forces longer queues and fewer matches.