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Analysis of combat damage in PvP: TR, CW, GF
vordayn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
Recently, I've been looking at the stats of different players in PvP and seeing how they perform. I ran an ACT and compared the differences in damage between a TR, GF and CW.
TR 3.460 IL / 2088 Tenacity / 13,000 Armor Penetration / Transcendent Feytouched
CW 3.209 IL / 2718 Tenacity / 12,000 Armor Penetration / Transcendent Feytouched
GF 3.339 IL / 2718 Tenacity / 12,000 Armor Penetration / Transcendent Terror
Table: Combat Duration, Total Damage:
The TR was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 12:54 min. 11 kills, 3 deaths.
The CW was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 7:04 minutes. 21 kills, 0 deaths.
The GF was involved in 1 fight with a combat duration of 6:58 minutes. 9 kills, 0 deaths.
First I analysed the TR's damage output:
TR Damage Output
The max hit for this TR was 21,215 HP damage via Shocking Execution which he used once. The majority of damage was done by Lostmauth's Vengeance (384k), Duelist's Flurry Bleed (350k), Smoke Bomb (179k), Duelist's Flurry (174k), Fey Thistle (172k), Cloud of Steel (141k) and Duelist's Flurry Hit (128k). Interesting to note was that 'MinHit' was '0' for most powers: he was fighting at the enemy base against a DC most of the time.
Next the CW's damage output:
CW Damage Output
The max hit for the CW was 41,421 HP via Disintegrate, with a median of 7,328 HP and an average of 10,560 HP. Also interesting to note, the max hit of Ice Knife was 19,055 HP; however it was only cast twice. The greatest damage sources were: Storm Spell (345k), Disintegrate (295k), Abyss of Chaos (250k), Icy Rays (214k), Lostmauth's Vengeance (208k), Ray of Frost (93k). Also note most powers dealing '0' in MinHit; the CW was also fighting a DC and OP at different stages, but '0' hits may also occur when a player is 'immune' e.g. dodges attacks.
Lastly, let's look at the GF's damage output:
GF Damage Output
The max hit for the GF was Anvil of Doom which dealt 157,041 HP with a median of 21,216 HP and an average of 40,272 HP. The second strongest encounter power was Bull Charge with 49,336 HP, median 10,398 HP and average 17,465 HP. The greatest sources of damage were: Anvil of Doom (563k), Bull Charge (436k), Crescendo (132k), Jagged Blades (94k), Elven Ferocity (91k), Crushing Surge (44k), Shadowtouched (42k), Fey Thistle (41k). Likewise, note that min hit for most powers were also '0'.
Discussion
Even though this is only a small sample (2 fights), the GF did quite well in the DPS stakes. The TR and CW fought in 2 matches, while the GF was only recorded in one. In the first fight, the CW and GF were in the same team against the TR and team-mates. In the second fight, the TR and CW were in the same team. The IL, tenacity and armor penetration scores were quite similar among the players, and all had transcendent weapon enchantments. Combat time was longer for the TR at 12 min (mainly as his battles were longer, staking out the enemy base against a DC), while combat time was shorter for the CW and GF at approximately 7 min each (as they tended to roam and kill quicker). Note, though, the GF's total damage (1.5mil) was comparable to the TR's (1.8mil) and CW's (1.7mil) even though the GF was only in one match.
The maximum hits for the TR, CW and GF were Shocking Execution, Disintegrate and Anvil of Doom respectively.
Interestingly, Shocking Execution by the TR only did 21k damage (and was used only once), a far cry from Mod 6 days in which it was used often as a finisher (and sometimes as an opener and finisher) on weak players. The top 5 sources of damage of the TR had a range of total damage contribution between 172k - 384k, which shows a fairly even spread among a range of powers.
The CW fired disintegrate a total of 28 times over the two matches, while the GF used Anvil of Doom 14 times and Bull Charge 25 times in one match. Both the GF's highest hitting powers, Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge, outperformed the highest hitting power of the CW - Disintegrate (157k and 49k vs 41k). Bull Charge has a range of 28', prones the player for up to a second, at which point that player is at the mercy of any follow-up attack (i.e. Anvil of Doom). Disintegrate, meanwhile, did less damage than the GF's Bull Charge, but does not have any control effects. Note that both Disintegrate and Bull Charge were used at similar frequency (28 vs 25 times).
Anvil of Doom is its own kettle of fish. It outperformed the next classes' highest hitting power by a factor of x3.79 (nearly x4!), and contributed a whopping 563k of the GF's total damage, with Bull charge contributing 436k damage. However, note the other powers of the GF have a steep drop in contribution: Crescendo contributing 132k, and the next few powers < 100k.
Summary
The GF at this stage outperforms these two classes which used to dominate in PvP (CWs in the Mod 2 era, and TRs in Mod 4, correct me if I am wrong). Steps were made by the developers to stop the grief caused by Shocking Execution by increasing players' HP pool, but not changing its damage dramatically. The GF now has the two strongest hitting encounter powers: Anvil of Doom (which does phenomenal amounts of damage) which the GF uses in conjunction with a very powerful control power, Bull Charge. The control powers of the CW are mitigated by Elven Battle Enchantment, whereas prones are not, and thus a CWs control powers pale in comparison; even though they have many powers, they are not very effective in PvP. This makes the GF now a very strong controller in the 1 vs 1 PvP setting. Not only does the GF have a very strong defensive class mechanic (Shield, mitigating damage by 80% and all control powers), they can advance on an enemy unhindered (which can proc the Ring of Ambush uninterrupted), and lash out Bull Charge at 28', which, as noted above, did more damage that the CW's Disintegrate! Not forgetting the GFs self-healing abilities, it makes the GF in this Mod's PvP meta a controller, striker, leader and (self) healer.
I am not trying to take away from the GFs who have built their characters to this level, they deserve a chance to shine. A reversion back to the turtle-like GFs of old would be boring in any case. If changes are to be made, then developers should look into the control effects of Bull Charge (or 'prone' powers to be precise) and see if this can be mitigated at all by tenacity, control resist or the Elven Battle Enchantment. Furthermore the damage which is done by Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge need to be scaled in line with their other powers. The self-buffing ability of the GF works too well with these two powers, as, if you note, the next closest power of the GF (Crescendo, a Daily!) does about 3-4 times less than these encounter powers. Furthermore, their other powers may need a little boost to even out the damage contribution.
Simply making other classes stronger will not balance things out. The TR only died 3 times, the CW and GF 0 times. If one were to make the TR and CW more competitive, it will only add more grief to PUGs or newer players. Shocking Execution, Takedown were all tweaked in previous mods to perform in line with other powers. Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge now need closer examination to make it work in line with the GF's other powers, and also that of other classes' powers.
TR 3.460 IL / 2088 Tenacity / 13,000 Armor Penetration / Transcendent Feytouched
CW 3.209 IL / 2718 Tenacity / 12,000 Armor Penetration / Transcendent Feytouched
GF 3.339 IL / 2718 Tenacity / 12,000 Armor Penetration / Transcendent Terror
Table: Combat Duration, Total Damage:
The TR was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 12:54 min. 11 kills, 3 deaths.
The CW was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 7:04 minutes. 21 kills, 0 deaths.
The GF was involved in 1 fight with a combat duration of 6:58 minutes. 9 kills, 0 deaths.
First I analysed the TR's damage output:
TR Damage Output
The max hit for this TR was 21,215 HP damage via Shocking Execution which he used once. The majority of damage was done by Lostmauth's Vengeance (384k), Duelist's Flurry Bleed (350k), Smoke Bomb (179k), Duelist's Flurry (174k), Fey Thistle (172k), Cloud of Steel (141k) and Duelist's Flurry Hit (128k). Interesting to note was that 'MinHit' was '0' for most powers: he was fighting at the enemy base against a DC most of the time.
Next the CW's damage output:
CW Damage Output
The max hit for the CW was 41,421 HP via Disintegrate, with a median of 7,328 HP and an average of 10,560 HP. Also interesting to note, the max hit of Ice Knife was 19,055 HP; however it was only cast twice. The greatest damage sources were: Storm Spell (345k), Disintegrate (295k), Abyss of Chaos (250k), Icy Rays (214k), Lostmauth's Vengeance (208k), Ray of Frost (93k). Also note most powers dealing '0' in MinHit; the CW was also fighting a DC and OP at different stages, but '0' hits may also occur when a player is 'immune' e.g. dodges attacks.
Lastly, let's look at the GF's damage output:
GF Damage Output
The max hit for the GF was Anvil of Doom which dealt 157,041 HP with a median of 21,216 HP and an average of 40,272 HP. The second strongest encounter power was Bull Charge with 49,336 HP, median 10,398 HP and average 17,465 HP. The greatest sources of damage were: Anvil of Doom (563k), Bull Charge (436k), Crescendo (132k), Jagged Blades (94k), Elven Ferocity (91k), Crushing Surge (44k), Shadowtouched (42k), Fey Thistle (41k). Likewise, note that min hit for most powers were also '0'.
Discussion
Even though this is only a small sample (2 fights), the GF did quite well in the DPS stakes. The TR and CW fought in 2 matches, while the GF was only recorded in one. In the first fight, the CW and GF were in the same team against the TR and team-mates. In the second fight, the TR and CW were in the same team. The IL, tenacity and armor penetration scores were quite similar among the players, and all had transcendent weapon enchantments. Combat time was longer for the TR at 12 min (mainly as his battles were longer, staking out the enemy base against a DC), while combat time was shorter for the CW and GF at approximately 7 min each (as they tended to roam and kill quicker). Note, though, the GF's total damage (1.5mil) was comparable to the TR's (1.8mil) and CW's (1.7mil) even though the GF was only in one match.
The maximum hits for the TR, CW and GF were Shocking Execution, Disintegrate and Anvil of Doom respectively.
Interestingly, Shocking Execution by the TR only did 21k damage (and was used only once), a far cry from Mod 6 days in which it was used often as a finisher (and sometimes as an opener and finisher) on weak players. The top 5 sources of damage of the TR had a range of total damage contribution between 172k - 384k, which shows a fairly even spread among a range of powers.
The CW fired disintegrate a total of 28 times over the two matches, while the GF used Anvil of Doom 14 times and Bull Charge 25 times in one match. Both the GF's highest hitting powers, Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge, outperformed the highest hitting power of the CW - Disintegrate (157k and 49k vs 41k). Bull Charge has a range of 28', prones the player for up to a second, at which point that player is at the mercy of any follow-up attack (i.e. Anvil of Doom). Disintegrate, meanwhile, did less damage than the GF's Bull Charge, but does not have any control effects. Note that both Disintegrate and Bull Charge were used at similar frequency (28 vs 25 times).
Anvil of Doom is its own kettle of fish. It outperformed the next classes' highest hitting power by a factor of x3.79 (nearly x4!), and contributed a whopping 563k of the GF's total damage, with Bull charge contributing 436k damage. However, note the other powers of the GF have a steep drop in contribution: Crescendo contributing 132k, and the next few powers < 100k.
Summary
The GF at this stage outperforms these two classes which used to dominate in PvP (CWs in the Mod 2 era, and TRs in Mod 4, correct me if I am wrong). Steps were made by the developers to stop the grief caused by Shocking Execution by increasing players' HP pool, but not changing its damage dramatically. The GF now has the two strongest hitting encounter powers: Anvil of Doom (which does phenomenal amounts of damage) which the GF uses in conjunction with a very powerful control power, Bull Charge. The control powers of the CW are mitigated by Elven Battle Enchantment, whereas prones are not, and thus a CWs control powers pale in comparison; even though they have many powers, they are not very effective in PvP. This makes the GF now a very strong controller in the 1 vs 1 PvP setting. Not only does the GF have a very strong defensive class mechanic (Shield, mitigating damage by 80% and all control powers), they can advance on an enemy unhindered (which can proc the Ring of Ambush uninterrupted), and lash out Bull Charge at 28', which, as noted above, did more damage that the CW's Disintegrate! Not forgetting the GFs self-healing abilities, it makes the GF in this Mod's PvP meta a controller, striker, leader and (self) healer.
I am not trying to take away from the GFs who have built their characters to this level, they deserve a chance to shine. A reversion back to the turtle-like GFs of old would be boring in any case. If changes are to be made, then developers should look into the control effects of Bull Charge (or 'prone' powers to be precise) and see if this can be mitigated at all by tenacity, control resist or the Elven Battle Enchantment. Furthermore the damage which is done by Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge need to be scaled in line with their other powers. The self-buffing ability of the GF works too well with these two powers, as, if you note, the next closest power of the GF (Crescendo, a Daily!) does about 3-4 times less than these encounter powers. Furthermore, their other powers may need a little boost to even out the damage contribution.
Simply making other classes stronger will not balance things out. The TR only died 3 times, the CW and GF 0 times. If one were to make the TR and CW more competitive, it will only add more grief to PUGs or newer players. Shocking Execution, Takedown were all tweaked in previous mods to perform in line with other powers. Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge now need closer examination to make it work in line with the GF's other powers, and also that of other classes' powers.
Vordon CW ‡ Vordayn DC ‡ Axel Wolfric GWF ‡ Logain SW ‡ Gawyn GF ‡ Galad OP ‡ Aspen Darkfire HR ‡ Min TR
0
Comments
Xerxes - GWF
Eazy - DC
Tyrian - TR
A few inferences can be made - Bull Charge or Anvil of Doom do much more damage compared to the GF's other powers, including Crescendo. Importantly, the GF's buffs did not inflate their other powers. The animation of Bull Charge is fast, and thus harder to dodge (I find) than SE; the follow-up Anvil of Doom is unavoidable when prone.
Even if SE (with first strike and ITF) is guaranteed to do 130-150k as you said, the GFs Anvil of Doom already reaches this amount. I have seen Anvil of Doom hit harder than this when I've looked at my combat log - I just haven't recorded it yet.
Anvil of Doom and Bull Charge are encounter powers, yet do more damage than most classes' dailies.
2.SE does the same damage no matter what the tree (if you dont take into account any buffs/debuffs)
3.Anvil is usually landed after bull's , so defence/deflect is out of the question (due to prone reasons)
4.rly ?? an 'analysis' of 3 major classes' ?? so lostmauth set is a feat in these classes??
its good that you want to understand how things work but please before you post something that everyone can see and since you tag it as 'analysis', discuss it first with someone (or better yet many) and post it after you are sure of what it means.
Because all i see is some random screen with numbers and no meaning
So to summarize: no i dont yes you can I am sure , you can laugh
The TR was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 12:54 min. 11 kills, 3 deaths.
The CW was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 7:04 minutes. 21 kills, 0 deaths.
The GF was involved in 1 fight with a combat duration of 6:58 minutes. 9 kills, 0 deaths.
not needed to read further, lol
Courage breaker + Smokebomb + SE = biggest fk you combo in the entire game.
Atleast everything the GF does you can avoid, you can see and predict what he does (except ambush rings, they are broken) but a TR with courage breaker is plain stupid. CWs are the most balanced class this mod, why you even bring them into your tiny sample lol.
Get ACT taken of 10 games, of full premade vs premade, include the following classes: GWF, GF, TR, SW, OP(in pally case, compare dmg taken vs deaths and you'll see how stupid it is) and then come on the forum and post your results.
2. The feats within a tree can add more damage to SE e.g. Ambusher's Haste (4th Tier in the Sab tree)
3. Doesn't that show then that the Bull Charge + Anvil combo is OP?
4. Any class can use the Lostmauth Set, never said it was a feat.
I knew the TR had to be a Scoundrel by the amount of damage from SE.
Was this really PvP or just a boss fight?
A CW would use this combo only for stumping 1k ilvl pugs maybe...
Edit: seems that i am right: "The CW was involved in 2 fights, with a combined total combat duration of 7:04 minutes. 21 kills, 0 deaths."
Also don't forget that even tho you need to make 1 small mistake against GF, he in turn needs to capitalize on your 1 mistake, if he doesn't he has to turtle up for the next 10secs, basically not do anything, he can't chase and he can't make you attack him. he needs to spend 2 skills just for self buff. In a 1v1 TR > GF, I don't see how GF can win if both classes play correctly.
Everything else you said I agree with, this post or my 10 games is not an indicator on anything, which is why I don't understand why this topic was made.
GF=best control+best damage+moderate healing+high defence=(overperforming)^2
From what I could remember, there was once a dev who really cared about CW. That dev was GentlemenCrush. Sadly he is no longer in charge of the development.
GentlemanCrush cared a bit too much about CWs, since he made them monopolize PvE from module 1 to module 5, with small exceptions of DCs and module 2 GWF (thanks to bugged deep gash).
In PvP CWs were strong in module 1, module 2 was GWF reign, in module 3 CWs were probably at their weakest point. But then they came back and in module 4 they were beasts with monster passive procs. Module 5 weaker but still good, it was TR reign but compared to other classes they could fight well. And module 6-7 they were doing good with shield on tab+T.Neg+T.Fey combo and disintegrate, not weak at all. Module 8 (current) they are outperformed but only because most classes have broken stuff, while CWs now seem overall balanced to me. It's other classes that should be fixed to be the same as current CWs in terms of balance (many useful tools, nothing overperforming).
Steel and Magic
There are quite a few of them hiding in plain sight that we see everyday... IJS.
But thats true. Cresendo compered to other dailys do little dmg but it leaves oponent porned at your feet and is fairy long control power so it would be unfair to ask for dmg buff for it.
PS. If you red my previus posts its not that I dont agree that stacking dmg stacks and states for GF is outpreforming. Im just sayin your analisys is worthless and missleading. You compere combination of 2 encounters with 1encounter which have 3 sec faster cooldown and you dont point from where the dmg come from. It seams that you had this statement that bull charge and anvil do to mach dmg and you wanted to prove it. But its not how its done. Dmg of anvil and bullcharge is fine. The problem is combination of ITF and combat advantage+tactical superiority/shielded warriors warth+stacks of conqueror+pindown+warthfull warrior+faytouch. All +%dmg boosts. This is it, not bull charge nad anvil do to much dmg. You can take into account -DR from mark and -DR form Tide of Iron(hard to maintain or aply before combo)
Steel and Magic