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Things that are broken and need to be improved for HRs
feanor70118
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,170 Arc User
in The Wilds
1) Damage. It is ridiculous that an HR does 1/3 to 1/5 the damage of a similarly geared GWF.
2) At-wills. Except for careful attack, they are basically useless. They should be buffed by a significant amount to bring them in line with other striker classes, probably something at least 100%.
3) Powderpuff encounter damage, such as steel breeze and thorn strike. Should be buffed in a magnitude similar to at-wills.
4) Oak Skin is useless and its healing should be based on max HP, not base HP.
5) Forest Ghost is useless to get out of any combat situation, especially in pvp. As a stealth ability, it should have the same functionality as a TR's tab key, and should not waste 1/5 of its duration with its animation.
6) The animation for Gushing Wound is absurdly long. GWF, GF, CW and TR big hit powers have fast animations, why are we singled out to be difficult to play?
7) Plant Growth should apply either Strong or Weak Grasping Roots and proc trapper feats. It should not be specifically designed to avoid working with trapper feats.
8) The HR dodge needs to be the same size as CW, DC or TR. Currently we can't get out of most AoE effects or a GWF's auto gap closing abilities (particularly half orcs).
9) Stat allocation in HR gear needs a serious revamp. It has been mathematically proven that we do the most DPS when our crit stat is about equal to our power stat, so stop loading our gear with power and recovery that we don't want. Also, many of our abilities depend on critical hits; this is another reason for a new look at these stats.
10) Swiftness of the Fox constantly fails in combat, usually in pvp. It should always work.
11) All our abilities should work with weapon enchantments. Many do not - devs know the list better than we do.
12) Many of our abilities often misfire in combat (particularly Gushing Wound). They should always work when we press the keys.
13) There is no reason that TRs should have a 75% deflect value when HRs in melee stance do not. I suggest leaving the deflect stat at 50% in ranged stance and changing it to 75% in melee.
14) The entire archery and combat trees need vast improvements in order to be playable. As this has been discussed repeatedly and at length elsewhere I will not belabor the point here.
15) Careful Attack and Gushing Wound screw with Aspect of the Serpent. Only the first hit from these powers should apply to AotS stacks.
16) Slasher's Speed, Trapper's Cunning and Readied Stance are barely useful and should be replaced with something worth putting points into.
17) Please just get rid of Cold Steel Hurricane and replace it with something useful.
2) At-wills. Except for careful attack, they are basically useless. They should be buffed by a significant amount to bring them in line with other striker classes, probably something at least 100%.
3) Powderpuff encounter damage, such as steel breeze and thorn strike. Should be buffed in a magnitude similar to at-wills.
4) Oak Skin is useless and its healing should be based on max HP, not base HP.
5) Forest Ghost is useless to get out of any combat situation, especially in pvp. As a stealth ability, it should have the same functionality as a TR's tab key, and should not waste 1/5 of its duration with its animation.
6) The animation for Gushing Wound is absurdly long. GWF, GF, CW and TR big hit powers have fast animations, why are we singled out to be difficult to play?
7) Plant Growth should apply either Strong or Weak Grasping Roots and proc trapper feats. It should not be specifically designed to avoid working with trapper feats.
8) The HR dodge needs to be the same size as CW, DC or TR. Currently we can't get out of most AoE effects or a GWF's auto gap closing abilities (particularly half orcs).
9) Stat allocation in HR gear needs a serious revamp. It has been mathematically proven that we do the most DPS when our crit stat is about equal to our power stat, so stop loading our gear with power and recovery that we don't want. Also, many of our abilities depend on critical hits; this is another reason for a new look at these stats.
10) Swiftness of the Fox constantly fails in combat, usually in pvp. It should always work.
11) All our abilities should work with weapon enchantments. Many do not - devs know the list better than we do.
12) Many of our abilities often misfire in combat (particularly Gushing Wound). They should always work when we press the keys.
13) There is no reason that TRs should have a 75% deflect value when HRs in melee stance do not. I suggest leaving the deflect stat at 50% in ranged stance and changing it to 75% in melee.
14) The entire archery and combat trees need vast improvements in order to be playable. As this has been discussed repeatedly and at length elsewhere I will not belabor the point here.
15) Careful Attack and Gushing Wound screw with Aspect of the Serpent. Only the first hit from these powers should apply to AotS stacks.
16) Slasher's Speed, Trapper's Cunning and Readied Stance are barely useful and should be replaced with something worth putting points into.
17) Please just get rid of Cold Steel Hurricane and replace it with something useful.
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Comments
HR dodge same size as CW/DC/TR would kill the class style. The dodge just needs to be more reliable, and stamina regen faster. You can increase the size a little bit, but not to the same extent as CW/DC/TR.
Stat allocation has always been stupid for most classes.
Swiftness of the Fox only "fails" if you manage to miss, or if the skill is a buff-type such as Fox Cunning (although some other buff-type skills do proc it still). If anything, Swiftness needs a nerf.
They should change Nature's Enhancement or whatever that trash feat is called to give 10-15% deflect severity instead of 5%.
Slasher's Speed and Trapper's Cunning aren't bad feats, TC is good for PvP although stupidly cheesy, so I do agree with that, but Slasher's Speed isn't too bad.
CSH is a nice skill actually 3: Just very situational, and the game meta doesn't allow for its full potential. In the right situations it's actually HR's highest damaging skill.
I don't care about preserving the class style if it means I constantly get caught in AoEs (in pvp, particularly smoke bomb and the stupidly large hit area of practically any GWF ability, which is twice the size of the already comically overcompensating weapon and seems to take no account whatever of collision mechanics).
Trapper feats being easy to proc isn't the point of needing a fix to Plant Growth (which in no way resembles the triple interrupt of old Constricting Arrow). Roots are roots. Designing one of the highest-damage encounters to not work for trappers WHEN ITS GRAPHIC IS A BIG PILE OF ROOTS is pointless (the politest way of describing it) and contradictory.
If Trapper's Cunning isn't a bad feat, please explain what the point is of having a 25% chance for a critical hit (a 1/8 chance even for a highly geared HR with about 14k crit) to apply roots when most of the powers in a trapper's rotation already apply roots.
If slasher's speed is a useful feat, enjoy using the low-damage Slasher's Mark slightly more often (as if HRs had any trouble building up AP) and getting a tiny extension to a tiny run buff. TR, CW and GWF feat trees aren't cluttered with this useless trash.
Cold Steel Hurricane does in fact do nice damage against large, stationary targets (i.e. dragons). It is otherwise almost completely useless. HRs have been complaining about it since day 1. I can only conclude that you are either a troll who does not play HR often or you are the only HR I have ever encountered who enjoys both Slasher's Mark and CSH (which is impossible on the same toon anyway).
I also desagree about trappers cunning, its very good in combination with some of the HRs poweres, for exemplo careful atack and gush wound, its fantastic on pvp in combination to crushing roots and one of the main reasons I hope we never get a ICD on crushing roots, it will kill the feat and kill the passive.
??? really?
crit ---> roots ---> forestbound -----> cooldown reduction ----> more roots ----> more cooldown reduction.
hr is good as it is as trapper, just need more damage with encounters (at least 50% more base damage on them)
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
its rather the other way round - im the one doing that opt-dps
To be fair, i only play some public runs so maybe i haven't got the best references around there ^^
2)Agreed 100%
And since i'm a PvE player CA also does only do great with a lot of players around
3) cant tell - all i use is Fox
4) Can't tell either, never used that skill
5) I kinda like the ghost to initiate a PVE fight
Yet as you say - a shorter animations seems reasonable
6) Agreed!
7) I don't see much sense there
in Dungeons i get so many refreshes, that im perma-casting
Also, according to my tests roots dont stack (or maybe im wrong there?)
So applying them by constricting arrow seems enough
Also - the damage i do with it as a trapper is insane due to permacast in my cycle
8) For archers or close might be nice
As trapper with Steel Breeze i got my action bar full most of the time so i can cover some ground
9) Yep, crit = damage
That's the archer for you ^^
10) Fox SOMETIMES fails me in pve, ye
Dont play pvp so cant tell there
But I've never experienced it as that bad.. its only occassionally
11) Would be a nice fix
12) Would be a nice fix
13) Not playing close, so cant tell
14) Agreed, archery seems useless at the moment to me
15) Agreed also
16) Yep!
17) Read a guy the other day saying that this skill was THE burn
Maybe that was wrong
Cant really tell since i dont use it
Pre-mod 6, Oak Skin was a heal for most of your HP over about 5 seconds. Since it applied to your whole party, it was a way for an HR to act as a healer in both pve and pvp. However, since all of our HP comes from armor now, it's only as useful as a post-mod 6 healing potion.
The reason it bugs me is that one useful rotation for fighting a high-geared GWF might be Marauder's/Fox/Cordon of longstrider's/marauder's/cordon IF Plant Growth worked with trapper feats. If it doesn't proc Master Trapper, though, you lose control bonuses and damage. As above, it's useful against dragons and not much else. By its description it should be fantastic against a large group of enemies but it has little discernible effect. Of course, I haven't played Stormwarden since early mod 5, maybe late mod 4, so maybe it's better now.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
But i dont think i'll achieve it anytime soon to test it out
But it seems correct that the sacling of HR is way weaker
Rotation (isn't that standard?)
Cordon to hoard some - const arrow to root - fox shift in - Plant - and then i spam like crazy in roughly that order:
plant ==> steel ==> fox shift ==> constriciting ==> fox cunning ==> plant ==> repeat
can cast without ever using any at will as long as i hit mobs + 3-5 party members with cunning
Cordon + seismic as they are up for extra dps / hoarding
Note: Cunning seems to grant the recharge reduction based on players you cast it on!
If there are more HR's i get some downtime, if i play solo too
Thats why i switch Fox for Hindering if i play solo (like some fast 5 encounters in the stronghold)
4) Ah, now i get it ^^
Yep, that seems pretty useless then and should be changed to %max health based
The massive HP boost on EQ is some idiocrasy in its own right anyways
7) Seems fair then
some nice boost to the pvp ability without imbalancing the PVE that much since you got your root uptime anyways through constricting (if the roots dont stack)
17)
The guide said large mobs + large groups tho....
Yet i don't want to spend a lot stuff now jus to try that out ^^
Maybe change its mechanism a little bit to make it more effective wouödn't be a bad idea tho
I encourage you to investigate a lighthearted, humorous approach to life.
I have 2 HRs so it is quite possible to enjoy both CSH and Slasher's Mark
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
It's not really 1/8 chance to get 5% cooldown if you know what you're doing. Perhaps on a standard rotation, yes, but no good PvE HR uses Trapper's Cunning; it's solely a PvP feat. It's pretty damn strong in PvP considering what it can do, mostly because of synergy with Careful Attack. It's pretty much a straight up 25% chance to daze your opponent every 1.5 seconds, more honestly, because CA generally hits 2-3 times at least, so a 50-75% chance to daze your opponent every 1.5 seconds even if you're not actively attacking. Please tell me how that's not strong.
Please, getting caught by smoke bomb? If you know what you're doing in PvP then no, you won't. In fact, you shouldn't even be in the radius of smoke bomb in the first place so that the TR doesn't get a stealth refill. GWF is a different story, and from your wording, that's more of a GWF problem than a HR problem. As I said, HR dodge frame should be increased, but the size of the dodge shouldn't be increased to the size of CW/TR/DC. A little bit is fine, but those lengths are overkill.
Slasher's Mark is not a DPS skill, it's a utility skill and if you read the tooltip you'd understand this. It's the equivalent of TR's Courage Breaker, which too does not have great damage. However, yes, HR does lack a nuke skill, our one and only nuke/burst is Seismic Shot, but our base damage is quite low, and honestly we're a DPS class, not a burst class. We win the DPS race more over time rather than burst, but that's what this game favours and hence why we could be considered at a disadvantage.
I see no real reason to complain about Cordon of Arrows/Plant Growth as it is, because it's mainly a DPS/burst skill, not primarily a control skill (plant growth could be considered as that, but it's still more DPS). The only thing I ever would complain about is CoA not being affected by Swiftness/Forestbond/Recovery. Also Plant Growth's CC type is the same as mod 2-3 Constricting Arrow, just saying.
Nevertheless, your suggested fixes do have some merit, but let me put it this way. It will not fix the HR class, simply because the HR class is too broken for any single fixes to make it right. The core of the class is the problem. As I have stated many many times before, the class cannot be fixed until you either nerf Swiftness of the Fox/Forestbond, Thorned Roots and Trapper's Cunning, or delete those feats entirely. After that's done, the class can now be rebalanced. Honestly speaking, HR feats actually aren't too bad, but the base damage of the class and the current meta means it doesn't work. Strictly speaking, we actually get a relatively similar damage increase in our feats to other classes like TR, except our base damage is just so low (x2 the encounters != x2 the damage).
Some of your suggestions will temporarily help the class, though, until Cryptic decides to finally revamp the class.
Also um, one more thing, GWF is not a fair comparison (if you're talking PvE, that is). The class is just so broken in terms of damage it's not even funny. HR is in a good spot for PvE, damage is equal to or better than a damnation SW. Generally you don't want to buff a class to be OP, and asking to be buffed to GWF levels is pretty much asking for that. Usually I don't like asking for direct nerfs to classes without other compensation, but GWF dps needs to be brought down to the same level as HR (pve-wise, pvp is a different story altogether). I'm not really in a position to say how GWF should be changed for PvE though, because I don't play that class.
1) Trapper's Cunning remains next to useless because half the classes in the game are essentially control immune (TRs can just hide until ITC comes off cooldown, GFs just have to stay on the outside of a node with their shields up, you only have to look askance at a GWF to proc Unstoppable and paladins were created to show that it was possible to make a class so ridiculous that its players can read a book while still in a pvp match). Therefore they are unlikely to be affected by dazes and we don't need a chance to apply more roots that they merely ignore anyway, especially when that chance is an RNG-governed small fraction of our crit chance. And as you say, perma-stun is a broken meta. We use it for lack of alternatives.
2) Any TR using a gap closer and/or ITC can get close enough to an HR to use smoke bomb, particularly if they get lucky with a terror enchantment. Too, contesting nodes doesn't exactly allow us to not be in the way. Finally, I don't think our feats compare in any way to TR's piercing damage and auto-crits.
3) Yes. I have in another contemporaneous thread pointed out that Slasher's Mark is a debuff (i.e. utility) skill. Thanks for confirming my understanding.
4) I have gone into detail in this very thread as to why I believe Plant Growth should work with trapper feats. I think the charges' ITC should be lowered to something reasonable like 3 seconds instead of 10, but shortening by HRs' other cooldown reductions would also solve the problem.
5) I'm not asking to be buffed to GWF levels, just not to be, for the fourth mod in a row, relatively weak for our investment in time and gear. The whole point, as should be apparent from the title, is that the devs actually put some thought into how to benefit GWF (among other classes) and did it effectively, while they've done little to HRs for a year other than nerfs and they designed our feat trees badly in the first place. I never liked the trapper spec and was, like probably most remaining HR players, driven to it by lack of alternatives. However, it's been so long since I made a serious attempt at playing one of the other two that I don't have any productive ideas on how to save them. I don't see why nerfing cooldown reductions would be a necessary first step to fixing HR, but in some alternate universe where Cryptic rolled back the character changes in mods 6-8 and showed some interest in/aptitude for balancing, sure, why not?
GF > GWF > SW > OP > TR > HR > CW
Taking into account current skill levels in the game (i.e. no good GFs, skilled SW/GWF/HR players):
GWF > SW > HR > GF > OP > TR > CW
is the current chart.
Okay. If you take into calculations the damage bonuses per tree, you actually see there is a damage similarity. I don't remember the exact numbers, but Trapper is ~60% damage increase and Archery is 40-50% (don't remember), and for TRs, they have approximately 40-50% damage bonuses in each of their trees. The feats are similar, but the 100% crit chance comes from their dumb class mechanic, so that part isn't relevant as I'm just talking about feat trees. If we turn to class features, then yeah, HRs have really trash choices (lolAspectOfTheFalcon).
If you have understanding that SM is a debuff, then why ask for it to do damage?
Any TR using a gap closer like Deft Strikes or Vengeance's Pursuit is dumb and incredibly predictable. The only "gap closer" they have is Lurker's Assault, and good TRs won't use that to gap close on you unless you're running away, which you generally aren't. Bloodbath is predictable and you can use Forest Meditation to counter it, and if they use Smoke Bomb after it it's a complete waste.
As I said, the crux of the problem is Thorned Roots, Forestbond and Swiftness of the Fox. Remove those and HRs can receive the buffs they desperately need. I like the Trapper spec as a concept, but having 0 cds etc. is just stupid. Damage should not be coming purely from a feat, which is currently how it is with Thorned Roots being something like 40-50% of our damage in PvP, and 60% of our damage in PvE (variably more, depending on what/who you fight).
Alright, so, imagine this. We all know HRs need a damage buff to our base damage/encounters/at-wills. Let's say, by some miracle, Cryptic does this indeed. Let's say, a 30% damage buff to all encounters, bringing up offhand weapon damage to be the same as mainhand, and a 50% damage buff to all our at-wills except for Careful Attack. Now, both Combat and Archery have decent damage, but what about Trapper? You still have 0 cooldowns, you still have Thorned Roots as passive damage, you still have equal or more damage in terms of feats - so what happens? Trapper is still the meta, Combat and Archery won't compare to it and using those will just be gimping yourself in terms of effective, just like using Sentinel and Instigator in the GWF trees. It's usable, but Destroyer will always be better.
In addition, with these buffs, Trapper can become somewhat OP because in general you're trying to buff Combat/Archery to be viable/good, but since Trapper is good as it is it then becomes OP.
Trusting Cryptic to fix HRs correctly is a long shot, but at least without those feats it'll be easier to see what the HR class needs.
I dont know if you guys would agree, I was thinking about starting a post about it, but what if insted of a raw buff for the encounters, at-wills, weapon damage etc, what if thorned Roots were a part of the whole HR root mechanic? Wouldnt that be the damage combat and archery need? Also in that cenario wouldnt the cd reduction for trapper be ok? I honestly do not see the 0 cd as a problem with the patetic damage HR have, but I do see how op it would be if there was ever a fix to the base damage of the class.
How can you say this? Maybe in pve trapper is fine. In pvp, trapper is just the least weak choice we can make. Its still bad compared to other classes.
I just dont get it why players like you or rookz sometimes say such things, and in reality, you are getting your but.ts kicked by similiar geared/skilled GFs, GWFs, OPs, TRs(with new meta its just a healing stallmate), DCs (nobody of you HRs could ever kill a DC who knows whats he is doing), even SW its kinda close, and CWs can be beaten by us, but overall a CW brings more utility to the party with his "every 5 sec repel".
I respect you for your expertise, but sometimes even smart people make very stupid decisions. Since mod3 you are (as far I can remember) suggesting nerfs for the HR, always with the precondition, that afterwards the Devs should buff specific areas.
How did that work out? Right… it didnt, because your expectations of class balance do not match the reality of Cryptics actually work.
In the end, even with a stupid mechanic like passive microdazes procing from feats, the class is on the bottom of the food chain in pvp. And you and most of your fellow players quit the game…
Even rookz admits now that HRs just suck.
Also the majority of the changes were more PvE focused than PvP, does apply there too but PvP is a different beast to balance, especially with all the HAMSTER that was introduced after Module 6.
If I started playing again, the only classes I would have consistent issues with would be GWF and SW, the former because.. yeah, and the latter because that class is a pretty hard counter to HRs (SWs can say what they want, but if you know how to fight a HR you will never lose unless they get the jump on you). HR could never kill a good DC 1v1 since module 5, and atm you wouldn't expect to.
I already posted what my interpretation of class potential/balance is atm:
GF > GWF > SW > OP > TR > HR > CW
Which is not unlike what you say.
Also fyi, HRs haven't ever really been nerfed per se, since module 4, just bugs have been fixed which made the class OP at certain points of time (notably mod 4 combat). There have been no direct nerfs to HRs since module 5 iirc, in fact Thorned Roots did get buffed during Module 6 to affect CC immune targets (not sure if that's a bug tbh). The reason why HRs are weak atm is this. Because of low base/weapon damage, HR gets most DPS from Thorned Roots, which equates to limited DPS (i.e. maximum of 5-10k DPS every second = minimum 10-20 seconds to kill a target from full HP). Thorned Roots base damage is actually quite reasonable, however, the majority of our damage used to come from crits, which is further nerfed by Tenacity, and damage is also further reduced by Negation (no longer a factor on squishy classes, but then you have GWF/GF/SW/OP). Back in module 5, HRs were strong because the meta was damage, and the HP pool was low enough for HRs to kill people in 5-10 seconds. Since people have >100k HP atm and the average Thorned Roots damage is probably something like 7k, it'll take you a minimum of 15 seconds constant DPS to kill them if they're not healing, and with the stupid healing meta atm, that makes it pretty damn hard to kill people.
HRs haven't been directly nerfed since module 4, but it's the meta that's killing the class along with the low base damage that's contributing to that.
Also, I quit because I got tired of having to change my gear every module, along with the ridiculous changes that came along after module 6 (domination node changes, drains, ridiculous guild boons, legendary rings, etc.), not because I didn't want to play HR anymore. If I ever came back to the game I would still main HR and SW.
The meta has changed, aka the other classes have recieved huge buffs and reworks.
And you mention correctly the changes of HP pools and the impact on HRs performance.
Thus, we were indirectly nerfed, because every other class has become much much better. You know this.
Not to mention the nerfs and countless reworks of our class before that:
- several nerfs to fox shift
- thorn ward nerfed
- entire paragon path removed
- nerf/fix to piercing dmg (which you also promoted, right?)
- nerf to CA
- nerf/total rework of constricting
- nerf to wilds medicine
- nerf to our pvp set
- the nerf/ bugging of forest ghost
- nerf of dazing shot
- nerf/rework of lonewolf
And thats just the things I can think of right now in an instant.
We get some stupid micro control instead, but what is that worth now? Right…
The HR in mod2 was actually fine despite the bug of constricting affecting control immune targets. That was stupid, true.
Then they bugged the pvp set and HR got very very tanky with it. Everyone was crying, HR is too tanky. So in mod4 they removed that and gave us lifesteal and piercing dmg. Then everyone cried about our dmg.
So after mod4 we got nerfed and got instead control with roots.
Then the next rework hit, and everyone is running around with 100k hp while our relative dmg remains the same. But we got more control with micro dazes.
And even now people are crying about our control. And dont realize that the HR has NOTHING else left.
If you come back and you might play your HR, good for you. But there is a difference between just playing a class and making a substantial impact for your team with it.
HRs can not do this anymore.
Even a good player like you, on the HR you are just the filler for a group now, the aliby choice to become a rainbow/ mirror comp.
If you win with a premade as a HR now, you would have won anyway. Your class had nothing to do with it.
If you are on the edge of loosing a match, your class can not make any difference at all.
I would not call that "fine as it is"