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Response needed !

ryoshinetteryoshinette Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 488 Arc User
edited September 2015 in General Discussion (PC)
Just wondering. What we, as a community, did wrong, to be ignored so hard?

Maybe I'm naive, but if some problem appears miltiple times, lasts for hundreds of posts, suggested solutions etc. - we should get at least some answer.

Some problems (not only pvp) are ignored for a months or even years !
I'm not trying to list all of them, but smply asking:

Why we can listen dev's statment? Instead of that we got just annoucments about changes - and as a community - we have no influence on it.

Check this tool
http://nwo-uncensored.com/devtracker.php
Dev's post. None in interesting topic !!

I feel to be so ignored.
Ryoshin GF (4.2k)
.Suicide Squad.




«134

Comments

  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    The devs are definitely listening in, and replying where they have definitive answers to give you guys. On Friday, the devs announced massive reduction in the AD cost to the marks, as a direct response to the criticisms given in the other threads...that idea was batted around by the community constantly, and it was listened to directly.

    Other changes are being discussed, and you can expect more changes coming.

    But for every constructive post, there's dozens of non-constructive posts that bury them, or essentially make the threads unreadable. It's extremely tough to create a constructive environment for a dialog when every other posts seems to be an insult, hyperbole or completely ridiculous request (how many times have I seen people demand a rollback to X module...). So just keep that in mind as well. The more a thread devolves into bickering, name calling and trash talking, the less likely you are to get a constructive response. Choose your own adventure here.

    But ultimately, the players are not being ignored.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    true, dont expect comments on feedback, cryptic has no manpower to do him (only few post at the day of release announcement). we should be lucky if some of the feedback will be implemented. but generally they will do whatever they want, we are supposed to wait
  • ryoshinetteryoshinette Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 488 Arc User
    I wish to believe you. But I don't
    Don't deny facts, thats there is a lot non-hate constructive threads, including proposals of solution and some suggestions.

    And I have right to expect dev's comment if smth is clearly broken. Check out mobs arpen case. So many threads, complains. Then finally after a months of hate, dev's announced that have found bug O.o Miracle?

    Now thorned roots - some dev said - that he agree. Not solved, months gone. etc.

    So please be serious.

    @vinceent1 sarcasm detected ;)
    Ryoshin GF (4.2k)
    .Suicide Squad.




  • sabiwensabiwen Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    One of the problems I see if the way the forum is moderated/categorized.

    For instance, the AD leadership thread of like 70+ pages is mostly what you say above (bickering, non constructive), but there are some good posts with suggestions in there that don't get seen by a majority of the community because it's so full of garbage.

    It doesn't help when someone posts a suggestion in a new thread (related to AD changes), and that thread gets moved to this 70+ pages of garbage posts. It gets buried and ignored. It also doesn't help when that thread gets moved to a place that many players don't check.

    I understand why you guys move them (to keep them all in the same place), but that benefit is not worth the post being buried.



  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    Gentlemancrush used to be very active on the old forum but I think the level of abuse he got for some questionable changes by the devs previously chased him away. Can't blame them but when they go for months without a single word, tension tends to build up before exploding. Communication from Scott and the team was good for about a month before they went back to them silent selves.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator


    Other changes are being discussed, and you can expect more changes coming.

    When you make a change like the one to Leadership that will alienate a huge portion of the player base, you already need your plan in place, and you have to communicate it. The MOP changes were obviously needed and should have been communicated up front. Pricing changes in other parts of the game were also clearly needed. Even if you don't know exactly how you will make changes to these things (perhaps you have to measure the economy to set exact prices), you need to communicate up front specifically what you will change. The way this was done, the dev team looks clueless.

    There has been no statement at all that Leadership will be looked at again. I personally only log in to get my VIP key, and check the forums to see if things are getting better. Same for many of my friends.


    But for every constructive post, there's dozens of non-constructive posts that bury them, or essentially make the threads unreadable.

    Look no further than the link in my signature for a fair way to modify Leadership.


    But ultimately, the players are not being ignored.

    Two words: Balanced PVP.
    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    sabiwen said:

    One of the problems I see if the way the forum is moderated/categorized.

    For instance, the AD leadership thread of like 70+ pages is mostly what you say above (bickering, non constructive), but there are some good posts with suggestions in there that don't get seen by a majority of the community because it's so full of garbage.

    I think 70 pages of bickering and unhappy people should speak for itself. It is a clear message in fact. It is caused by an ineffective and problematic management team that can't keep the palyerbase remotely entertained.

    We are here, after all, to have fun. This game is not in the current state. Hasn't been since at least April.
    Post edited by santralafax on
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    no sarcasm RYO sorry))
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    ...
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User

    Two words: Balanced PVP.

    PM me a link to an MMO's PvP forum where all the posters are happy with the "balance" of the game.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    Two words: Balanced PVP.

    PM me a link to an MMO's PvP forum where all the posters are happy with the "balance" of the game.
    @ironzerg79
    Does chess count as an MMO? :p (Sorry, just couldn't resist :p)
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    Keep in mind, as clever as that sounds, chess pits two completely identical sets of pieces against each other, on a single board whose layout never changes.

    PvP would be easy to balance if it was one class, with one distinct sets of abilities and winning/losing was totally up to the skill and intelligence of the players.

    That's a far cry from any MMO PvP, let alone Neverwinter.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User


    @ironzerg79
    Does chess count as an MMO? :p (Sorry, just couldn't resist :p)

    Chess is NOT balanced, that dang Queen is overpowered as heck!

    Sincerely, Pawn.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User


    @ironzerg79
    Does chess count as an MMO? :p (Sorry, just couldn't resist :p)

    Chess is NOT balanced, that dang Queen is overpowered as heck!

    Sincerely, Pawn.
    @ironzerg79

    I know, I just couldn't resist mentioning chess regardless :p

    And fear not pawn, chess is balanced, if you cross the board and reach the other side, some day, you will be queen too :p
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,049 Arc User
    A matchmaking based on ItemLevel would be a start for PvP, but we wouldn't want to anger all those wallet warriors... right?
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • ryoshinetteryoshinette Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 488 Arc User
    You lost topic @ironzerg79

    It's not about fact, that all are happy. It's about our knowledge that's is WAI.
    More than two years of playing this game learn us to adopt. Number of broken things this time, is higher than number of players playing now on server.

    Game is changed - players clearly see that is broken, report it and .... months of silence.
    Just short info - "Yes, we see that is problem with that, working on it"

    But just being quiet - it's ignoring of players. And playerbase is decresing every single day, every single decision dev's made without disqussion.

    Soon, DEv's will design game for themselvs. Maybe finally they will start to play, and will see how it's broken.
    Ryoshin GF (4.2k)
    .Suicide Squad.




  • raistlinmajere00raistlinmajere00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 176 Arc User
    Agreed, I feel that the devs / mods / staff in general chime in on the forum discussions no doubt, and have meetings / topics assembled to discuss it among the staff. However I feel the lack of communication plays a factor into it as well. I know the forum mods have a lot on their hands since there are many posts a day and a multitude of sub-forums. I just remembered I was playing on a different mmo before and would always see GM's and Dev's in game from time to time and play with the players. Was a great way for the staff to connect with the community and also witness bugs / glitches first hand etc etccccc.
    image
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User

    Two words: Balanced PVP.

    PM me a link to an MMO's PvP forum where all the posters are happy with the "balance" of the game.
    sorry to say to you but you are wrong. in all games people complain about class balance, but i am sure if they know whats going on in neverwinter they will stop complain about their game. example - eso

  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    edited September 2015

    Two words: Balanced PVP.

    PM me a link to an MMO's PvP forum where all the posters are happy with the "balance" of the game.
    Making all of the PVP players happy with the balance is never possible. There will always be people that complain, because
    • There is an objective, serious balance issue in the game
    • They want to create an advantage for their class or build
    • They don't fully understand the mechanics of PVP
    • They want to complain about something
    However, it is possible to objectively balance PVP well enough that many players enjoy it. Each module of Neverwinter so substantially changes the game that top PVP guilds spend weeks on Preview figuring out which classes, powers and enchants are now OP or outright broken. I know, I spent months in one of the top PVP guilds that everyone likes to complain about before giving up on PVP (because almost every match was totally one-sided, and I didn't want to invest substantial AD for the next BiS build for more of the same).

    PVE players don't really notice because PVE content is easy enough for most of the players. A huge portion of players that avoid PVP fall into two categories
    • Players that don't like to PVP
    • Players that don't want to chaise "the one true build for PVP this module". Or can't do that. It is expensive (sell Transcendent ABC Enchantment that was BiS last module, buy Transcendent DEF Enchantment that is BiS this module, for both weapon and armor).
    Neverwinter can arrive at PVP that is well enough balanced to be enjoyable by stopping the radical changes to classes and equipment, and instead making slow and steady corrections.

    How do you know when you are balanced enough?

    For enchantments, let the market speak. When there are 3-5 types of enchantment priced within perhaps 10% of each other on the AH, and which enchantments those are remains stable between modules, you're pretty close. I don't say that all enchantments should be close in price, because the best enchantment for PVP can certainly be different than the best enchantment for PVE, and PVP prices are going to be higher.

    For class balance, look at the composition of premades. If you see a representative balance of all classes (but probably not paragon paths - that's asking too much and perhaps not desirable in a PVE+PVP game), you have arrived at a good place in terms of the ability of all players to be successful.

    When those metrics both line up, check the number of players queuing for PVP.

    As a last step, measure Zen sales. Happy players are glad to spend money. You don't have to trick them into doing so.
    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • darkstarcrashdarkstarcrash Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    As always, this thread has gone way off topic.

    OP, everyone likes more communication from the devs -- but if they replied to every thread they wouldn't have time to, ya know, develop the game.

    And if a dev posts an off-the-cuff reply without making sure what s/he says is exactly correct and not subject to any misinterpretation, then outcries of "Lies!" and "You promised!" will follow. So it is safer if they limit their posts as much as possible.
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    The matches in GG have gotten better since the pre-mades have invaded Strongholds for Lionsmane. Or perhaps I'm just fighting bots!
  • ogariousogarious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    I do have to say, balanced PvP is a myth. It doesn't exist. In any MMO. If you want balanced PvP play a FPS with multiplayer mode like Call of Duty or somesuch, and then deal with the cheaters there.

    What your looking for is enjoyable, somewhat fair PvP experience. But that is just a small focus of the problems with this game. The OP posted a line to Neverwinter Uncensored. Some of the stuff happening in Neverwinter you would simply not believe. And it's being discussed there, and it is fact.

    Those in charge have a lot to answer for.
  • kitkathdkitkathd Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Personally I think PVP should be a third "outfit" page on your character. Then make PVP gear only acquireable from PVP missions, the zen store, and campaigns. Or make it similar to the way the Last stand mode in Dawn of war, as you level your "pvp avatar" you unlock different items to wear for different "characters". Seperate the PVE from the PVP and you will have a solution.

    Alternatively make a new queue called Barebones pvp and watch as everyone goes there to pvp.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    Looking back, the devs have responded over 30 times this last week to stuff. But it's tough to pick those posts out. @strumslinger Any word on getting a working dev tracker up?


    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • dufistodufisto Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited September 2015

    Looking back, the devs have responded over 30 times this last week to stuff.


    yeah, we're combating bots...........
    yeah we're looking at the data.......
    yeah we're blowing smoke up your .........


    there were plenty of constructive posts BEFORE the hammer came down. all of which were ignored.
  • strumslingerstrumslinger Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,724 Cryptic Developer
    Vanilla is still working on implementing a dev tracker.

    But to echo what a lot of people have said on this thread, the devs are actually looking at the forums much more than you think or realize. If they were to reply to everything, they wouldn't be able to get anything done. That, or their words would be used against them. Take a look at some of their walls and tell me you'd love to be in their shoes :smile:.


    Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
    Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame 
    Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter

    Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger

  • dufistodufisto Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited September 2015

    Vanilla is still working on implementing a dev tracker.

    But to echo what a lot of people have said on this thread, the devs are actually looking at the forums much more than you think or realize. If they were to reply to everything, they wouldn't be able to get anything done. That, or their words would be used against them. Take a look at some of their walls and tell me you'd love to be in their shoes :smile:.

    perhaps if you delivered things that you promised, your words COULD NOT be used against you. perhaps if there were a history of positive changes recently your words WOULD NOT be used against you.

    perhaps if you had actually planned out the changes BEFORE implementing them there wouldnt be such a @#%@ storm. i mean really just deleting the ad from leadership as an emergency patch with 0 thought as to what to do with the profession and 0 re balancing of the existing rewards so that a 1 run of a 4 hour task does not result in better rewards than a 24 hour task.

    all we keep hearing is "soon", "we're looking at the data", "we understand" but very little actually happens.

    lets look at the past history of the leadership in the last month and a half. 1st it was botters are abusing the gateway so we'll take it away. then we arent seeing an increase in in-game botting of leadership. then a month of silence, then "OMG, BOTS we're nerfing leadership in an emergency patch." and while we're at it we're going to mess with every other mechanism for earning ad. and not test any of it. and then we'll look at the data and see what needs to be adjusted. 2.4 million ad for upgrading a white pet to orange didnt strike you as one of those. 2 M to upgrade a horse.......

    had you just came out and been honest, "hey folks, we've looked at the data and players are generating too much ad through leadership, we're REDUCING IT by 75%." and at the same time listened to the pre nerf suggestions (40 pages in 2 days). and did the gmop/companion/horse changes at the same time. you would have far less complaints. and then came back and messed with rhix/powerhour. (please fire whomever decided to drop ad underneath a dragons corpse that never disappears)

    lets look at the xp/challenge lvl changes. so you cut the number of required vigilence tasks in half. but now you finish spinward at 67 2/3 with 53% xp boost. whoopty do. i now have to grind 2 1/3 more levels still repeating the same content. did anyone test if you could level from 61 to 70 doing the vigilance tasks, how exactly was this a positive change. the only zone that actually appears to be upgraded was drowned shores. meanwhile your beloved xboxers are doing 60-70 in 7 hours.

    or when you changed the campaign zones to 70 required. did anyone think what about lvl 60-69 skirmishes, or how about shar be from 63+ and dr from 66+, or what do we do about the vault of the nine. its the history of fix one thing break 5 other things that's really gotten out of hand.

    and then there are blatant lies. like "we're fighting bots" meanwhile 3 minutes in PE and you'll see tons of gold spammers. /who "ghost stories" and you'll see 2000 instances. it should take all of 10 minutes of parsing "soandso enters ghost stories" from your logs to identify 85% of the bots. and track their resource movements to the storehouse accounts. the only reason this has been going on for so long with 0 intervention is i assume you own the bots ( either cryptic using as an off the books revenue stream, or privately held by devs/management).

    select count * as entrance,charname from zonelog where entrance > 20 and date > getdate(now - 24h) and zone = "ghost stories" group by charname order by entrance desc

    there i did your work for you. now you can have the devs bring back the old dungeons. if you want i can show them how to run a selective restore from disk or tape.


    (Removed comments on moderation. Do read and abide the rules.)
    Post edited by zebular on
  • ogariousogarious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    edited September 2015

    Vanilla is still working on implementing a dev tracker.

    But to echo what a lot of people have said on this thread, the devs are actually looking at the forums much more than you think or realize. If they were to reply to everything, they wouldn't be able to get anything done. That, or their words would be used against them. Take a look at some of their walls and tell me you'd love to be in their shoes :smile:.

    Oh without a doubt. Their and your jobs must suck right now. I can only imagine how oppressive things have to be on your end there. Being in a hostile workplace is no fun, I know from experience.

    But, in the same breath this is earned angst from past actions going back to the near beginning of the game...

    Hopefully this isn't like illegal and will get me banned from the forums. But here's a little motivational thing for the dev team who works on Neverwinter to look at...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj0jzepk0WA

    Post edited by ogarious on
  • strumslingerstrumslinger Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,724 Cryptic Developer
    Case in original point. I try and explain the devs' side of this and get insulted into oblivion.

    Like I said though, at the end of the day, the devs do look at the forums pretty often, but to expect them (and me) to respond to every topic is unrealistic. We're people, too. We have lives.


    Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
    Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame 
    Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter

    Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger

  • ogariousogarious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    Ok, but do you really not expect people to be upset. This is human nature your dealing with here. I wish I had a link to the Matt Miller quote that talks about understanding that at least when the playerbase is angry with you that they care enough about the game to be angry with you.

    And when I say angry with you. It's not really you, yourself, as a human being that anybody here hates. They dislike the choices being made. They dislike the actions that a person has taken, not the person themselves. It's truly a nearly impossible distinction there, but it does exist. At the end of the day, not matter how personal the attacks seem. The persons making them are mad at the actions taken, not the person themselves. Now you can go and say that a person is defined by what actions they take. And no matter how much people may say it. There is no person alive, ever, who has never done a job and at least cared somewhat about how well they do it.

    I don't think it is realistic for any developer to do a daily accounting of the work they've put in on Neverwinter. Anyone who expects that is wrong in their expectations.

    On the same note though, we've been hearing "We do listen to you and we are working hard on the topic" isn't going to make people happy.

    The post where they made announcements to the changes to potency marks is a good example of a step in the right direction..

    The post pointing out the upcoming changes to leadership and AD removal without putting in any future hints of what was coming is a good example of a step in the wrong direction..

    I too, don't know the best path to bridging the divide that has sprung up between the people playing the game and posting on the forums and the people running the game. But I. personally, haven't given up yet. I guess that's probably the most helpful thing I can say at this point. Not that I am even sure that that matters.



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