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"Paingiver" versus "Paintaker" leaderboard ranking.
angrysprite
Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
A motivational talk for my fellow Protection Paladins who forget all the other classes just can't handle it.
I've now seen a couple threads created by Oathbound Paladin players asking about more DPS; how to get it or even asking the Devs to provide more of it. The typical responses are often "then play a DPS class because Paladin ain't it" and so on.
Another common topic with regard to DPS abilities in many class forums (and especially in PvP discussions, apparently) is the end-of-event "player stats box" that appears after skirmishes and dungeons and all that stuff. You know the one: displays everyone's rank in different statistics like "most times fallen" and "most healing" and so on. The majority of "DPS" conversation subjects I often see tend to evolve into this leaderboard ranking system and it seems like the primary goal of everyone is to hit the top rank #1 first place in the "Damage Dealt" or "Paingiver" stat.
And I suspect there may be many Oathbound Paladin players thinking similar impure blasphemous thoughts. Hence I shall attempt to enlighten you in this regard. For you Oathbound Paladin players hoping to someday, when Hell freezes over, to actually hit that top spot on the "paingiver" list: PROTIP: 'T'ain't gonna happen. So stop letting yourself down and give yourself some credit where it's due.
The list to watch for is "lifesaver" or "paintaker", depending which Paragon tree you've given your Oath to. Devotion trees should try to always be number one in the most heals, right? Who needs DPS when you are saving lives. All those squishy noodles would melt in front of those mobs without you. But alas it is a thankless job, for you have given your oath and devotion to selflessness.
Truthfully-speaking it's pretty easy for Devoted Clerics and Devotion Paladins to hit the top spot in in the "lifesaver" list, so I'd like to bring up the subject of the 'paintaker'. If you've given your Oath to be the great protector of all things not EEEVIIIL then you need some patience and resolve because it's not easy. But this is why you are who you are and all the others are too wimpy to even try, because DPS is so easy to do. The patience is regarding the trickle of DPS you dish out with an eye-dropper because the mobs are laughing at you. Yes. Really. They are laughing at you so hysterically it's amazing they don't just fall over and die from the stress of it, which would make our jobs easier.
But I digress.
As for the resolve part of the equation? This is where you shine. Forget the silly paingiver stat. As I, Keona the Relentless (under anonymous alias 'Angry Sprite' have proclaimed to my fellow Oathgivers in another thread):
When you are always number one in Damage Received event leaderboard statistic you should be proud about that. Very proud. Anyone including a monkey can pull a trigger and deal DPS damage. Hell, even Warlocks shout that annoying scream because it makes their legs tingle. But only a stout ballsy brick wall can take it all and ask for more.
Because the Protection Paladin is all about being a brick wall; its about taking as much damage as possible, including taking the 'bullet' for other members of your party and still being alive at the end of it. All those squishy noodle classes couldn't hold a candle to our sheer brute resolve, because OATH!
So always remember this. It is your solemn vow of oath to help others through divine healing or outright ability to suck away their pain. Because they just can't handle it. The wuss's. Every last one of them.
So get it into your heads that when a skirmish or dungeon is finished and the player stats box appears and everyone is trying so hard to be the top "Damage Dealt" or "pain-giver'... PFFFT. A really good Devotion Paladin is the one who kept their scrawny squishy butts alive and really good Protection Paladin doesn't care about that silliness at al, because being number one in "Damage Received" is a divine blessing.
Okay, weird OP I s'pose. What are your thoughts on the subject of "Paingiver" versus "Paintaker" rankings and where would you rather take first place as a Paladin (Devotion or Protection)? (And yes: this is a total tongue-in-cheek farce post) LOL
I've now seen a couple threads created by Oathbound Paladin players asking about more DPS; how to get it or even asking the Devs to provide more of it. The typical responses are often "then play a DPS class because Paladin ain't it" and so on.
Another common topic with regard to DPS abilities in many class forums (and especially in PvP discussions, apparently) is the end-of-event "player stats box" that appears after skirmishes and dungeons and all that stuff. You know the one: displays everyone's rank in different statistics like "most times fallen" and "most healing" and so on. The majority of "DPS" conversation subjects I often see tend to evolve into this leaderboard ranking system and it seems like the primary goal of everyone is to hit the top rank #1 first place in the "Damage Dealt" or "Paingiver" stat.
And I suspect there may be many Oathbound Paladin players thinking similar impure blasphemous thoughts. Hence I shall attempt to enlighten you in this regard. For you Oathbound Paladin players hoping to someday, when Hell freezes over, to actually hit that top spot on the "paingiver" list: PROTIP: 'T'ain't gonna happen. So stop letting yourself down and give yourself some credit where it's due.
The list to watch for is "lifesaver" or "paintaker", depending which Paragon tree you've given your Oath to. Devotion trees should try to always be number one in the most heals, right? Who needs DPS when you are saving lives. All those squishy noodles would melt in front of those mobs without you. But alas it is a thankless job, for you have given your oath and devotion to selflessness.
Truthfully-speaking it's pretty easy for Devoted Clerics and Devotion Paladins to hit the top spot in in the "lifesaver" list, so I'd like to bring up the subject of the 'paintaker'. If you've given your Oath to be the great protector of all things not EEEVIIIL then you need some patience and resolve because it's not easy. But this is why you are who you are and all the others are too wimpy to even try, because DPS is so easy to do. The patience is regarding the trickle of DPS you dish out with an eye-dropper because the mobs are laughing at you. Yes. Really. They are laughing at you so hysterically it's amazing they don't just fall over and die from the stress of it, which would make our jobs easier.
But I digress.
As for the resolve part of the equation? This is where you shine. Forget the silly paingiver stat. As I, Keona the Relentless (under anonymous alias 'Angry Sprite' have proclaimed to my fellow Oathgivers in another thread):
When you are always number one in Damage Received event leaderboard statistic you should be proud about that. Very proud. Anyone including a monkey can pull a trigger and deal DPS damage. Hell, even Warlocks shout that annoying scream because it makes their legs tingle. But only a stout ballsy brick wall can take it all and ask for more.
Because the Protection Paladin is all about being a brick wall; its about taking as much damage as possible, including taking the 'bullet' for other members of your party and still being alive at the end of it. All those squishy noodle classes couldn't hold a candle to our sheer brute resolve, because OATH!
So always remember this. It is your solemn vow of oath to help others through divine healing or outright ability to suck away their pain. Because they just can't handle it. The wuss's. Every last one of them.
So get it into your heads that when a skirmish or dungeon is finished and the player stats box appears and everyone is trying so hard to be the top "Damage Dealt" or "pain-giver'... PFFFT. A really good Devotion Paladin is the one who kept their scrawny squishy butts alive and really good Protection Paladin doesn't care about that silliness at al, because being number one in "Damage Received" is a divine blessing.
Okay, weird OP I s'pose. What are your thoughts on the subject of "Paingiver" versus "Paintaker" rankings and where would you rather take first place as a Paladin (Devotion or Protection)? (And yes: this is a total tongue-in-cheek farce post) LOL
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I dont think paladins have a problem with (ego feeding dps score board) but they have a problem with daly progress (time consume).
I dont think they want to improve they ranking on paingiver they want faster progress on dalys also they want a little chance to kill someone in pvp even if it takes a few min.
If somone roll paladin /GF /DC or OPhealer then he/she dont do it becuz he/she want to be top dps .
I think he want to fill her role but for some reason tanks die in red and from a simple 3 archers.
And healers cannot heal enugh.
At each time they fail it left somthing foul in they mouth.
And at this point they think about it .
Some of them mybe ask this to his/her self:
I build my char to be tough stacked defense deflect stacked the most defensive setup what was avaible but i still die all time w/o daly or if i lose my stamina(GF) the why a hell shoud i not spend points to do more and more dps cuz simpl build y self tanky as hell is not rewarding at least not in pve .
Or this why shoud i heal 80 k when ppl around me die every 1/2 sec i cant outheal oneshoting.
IF they give 100% boost on paladins encounters and at wills they will hit still low /vs other classes .
So asking for more dps isnt about paingiver its about reduce the time with daly progress .
THIS I do concur with. It is painfully slow. And that's part of why I wrote the thread OP: "Don't think or try to DPS your way through anything because you're not even in the race. But the Hare is easily squished, the Tortoise will survive long enough to cross the finish line.
But mostly my OP is tongue-in-cheek. As in let us laugh at ourselves and just be happy about the way things are (well, except for the bugs and whatnot, of course!)
Yes....there are a LOT of bugs, as I have put an entire thread of them in the bug reports section. ATM, the only thing stopping me from releasing a devotion OP guide is the fact that there are likely to be a lot of pally changes upcoming and depending on how those go, I want to release a guide once my build is fairly stable and unlikely to change.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?954001-A-Plethora-of-Pally-bugs
"The Mountain Does Not Move."---Hida Bushi Technique
Angrysprite is spot on...
However, that doesn't mean you can't do respectable DPS while still tanking!
Though I believe I have some ideas to make dailies easier, or at least not as slow with the update to my build that will be coming fairly soon. :cool:
On the subject of the leaderboard I'm looking to have more damage taken than the rest of the party combined, that's when I feel I'm doing my job well.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
For instance, I've started using the Lostmauth set. I had the cloak already, for it's AP Gain and the much needed Armor Penetration. As I pointed out in the thread I made, in Dungeon play, it completely underperforms. It makes up a very small part of your damage. Even less so when you start using Burning Guidance. However, the choice for the set was fueled by the above reasoning: I didn't need more healing, and I was also very comfortable with how well I could stay alive. For solo play, however, that set is definitely worthwhile, because two of your three encounter slots aren't occupied with non-damaging powers - although Vow of Emnity sometimes does proc the Lostmauth set.
What I really think is happening is that we're all still trying to find the balance between the three classic elements: 1) Being able to take damage; 2) Being able to heal; and 3) Being able to deal damage. Considering the class is still relatively young, this will continue for a while. And, honestly, I thoroughly enjoy this quest for balance. I've been doing a lot of testing on the Paladin, from the release on Preview up until now, and keep finding new things - some of which are obvious bugs, but others which improve the quality of life both in Dungeon play and in Solo and Skirmishes.
That being said, I would like to stress once again that I agree with the sentiment about Paingiver. I've always thought it a flawed mechanic, made obvious by the Control Wizards running CN in previous mods. They'd run ahead, quickly blow up the trash and leave the stronger mobs for the rest of the team. I don't blame them for that, as it did speed up the run, but it did give skewed numbers at the end. When I run now, I look for three things: 1) How many times did my teammates die and were any of those deaths attributable to my failure to heal? By that I mean if it wasn't some kind of lame mechanic one-shot or if the party member in question did anything stupid like run away from me; 2) How much healing did I do? I actually consider this one less important. Healing happens and is needed, but a good tank *greatly* reduces the amount of heals I have to send peoples' way; 3) Paingiver. I like to contribute on all three fronts. I'm not going to be near the top unless I do some weird run like I did with thefabricant, but I also want to see improvement.
http://i.imgur.com/LJAkVe1.jpg
-and paintaker-
http://i.imgur.com/QJFlNwg.jpg
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Precisely.
Also @kodiak0961 isn't getting the point of the thread. No one here is saying you can't do both or that you should't attempt to do both. The thread is about going for a different stat if you so desire and if you top that chart be proud about it. The point being to be either-or, not both.
You see: taking top spot in "Paingiver" makes you an expert. Taking top spot in "Paintaker" make you an expert. Trying to hybrid both and not topping either: makes you... um... Not an expert. LOL
In truth the whole "I made number one in DPS" thing are really a lot boring now. No one really cares anymore other than those to actually did it (an epeen thrill, I suppose) and that's probably a good thing.
I also "get" the levity of the post as well, but I know there are folks out there that are frustraited with the pally's damage and may be wondering if they want to continue to play them. If your looking to be tank, but still want to contribute to the damage output. The build is available and works.
So the comment about "binding oath" being the only reason I showed up in 1st place as paintaker. I honestly don't know what to say about that - I guarantee you that if I slotted a pure offensive encounter like smite, I'll still be 1st in paintaker. But if you don't believe me, look me up in game - I'm happy to run with anyone.
Teal'c Unleashed
--Win or Lose we Booze--
Pally damage is based on group makeup, 2 cw's 1 sw and a AP/DoT heal DC and you will do a bunch of damage. A TR, GWF, CW with a non-AP spec's DC and your damage will be considerably less.
Either way, end of the day it's how much you can contribute to the party which matters the most overall IMO. He definitely rocks well, and we chat a lot about OP tech.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Also, I play all classes, and I try to fit their roles as well as possible. Only exception is PvP, where I let loose with whatever is the best at winning/killing other players/being impossible to kill. One thing I have to say is that it seems to have been pretty well received in this forum to not care about paingiver and try to fit the role, but when I was on the CW forum...everybody there seems to hate the idea of going for a CC-support build and not doing damage. Very odd. Either way, I played Justice when I leveled my OP. Least favorite class, but that's just me. I might try rolling up a dex/con pvp build going for maximum HP, DR, and deflect chance - something like the staple DC build right now. Idk. What are your thoughts?
That's a tough call (the request for my thoughts) LOL
I Also have (several of) every other class in the game. Both my Paladins were human and Justice Tree (one Protection the other Devotion. I've discovered I enjoy the paladin the most, and of that I like the Protection better than the Devotion. I like the Justice tree a lot but decided to give Bulwark a go on my protection model and I am so happy with it that (SHOCK! GASP!) Mod 6 is even tolerable right now (but only barely).
My next favorite are my DCs. I've run all three branches of both Paragon trees. I enjoy Annointed Champion/Faithful the best and find it incredibly strong in a party-support role. Many like the Divine Oracle tree and they will often go for Righteous branch - which the "DPS" branch (like Justice is for the OP) - but I think Faithful is stronger in terms of decent DPS with good survivability.
DC is a fun ranged class to play. Though I still wouldn't try for the top of the paingivewr charts.