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Why are so many toons/paths so useless? Where is the flexibility? Creativity?
iamtylerhakes
Member Posts: 28 Arc User
I am well aware that this is just another gripe among a mountain of grievances that the players have presented. And, to the team here, I am sure that you all are working rather hard to try to resolve these and to make the game fun and enjoyable, while also realizing that you need certain hooks to generate revenue -- I understand how the business works.
BUT, I can't help but think that most/all of the biggest issues are caused by a complete lack of balance for different classes and different paths within those classes.
The problem is two-fold:
1. Everyone is being herded into just a few select paths that are optimal or even viable for actual gameplay, while the other paths simply languish and no one uses them. Isn't the point of having 3 separate paths per class that you should be able to select any of them and still be able to play/enjoy that particular path? Each class is being handicapped to a single or specific role (Except for maybe OP), of which no player is allowed to deviate or else their toon becomes entirely useless or even unplayable in end-game content.
Frankly, this is boring.
I am a fringe kind of player. In games of all types, I like to play "weird" builds, discover new things, and generally deviate from the mainstream. But, it seems to me that this is entirely unfeasible with the way that the game currently works.
2. You have constant battles on the forums about "this content is too hard" or "it's too easy to level up". The reality is that this is ENTIRELY dictated by the toon that you roll, and the path that you choose. All classes/paths are not given a relative strength, but instead, certain classes/paths are undeniably BETTER or more powerful in every way.
This makes it impossible for your game to be playable for all characters. It means that 75% of your playerbase who choose the "Wrong" path--sentinel gwf, warlock (pretty much all paths), etc--will find the game excruciating. In which case, they are either "forced" to change to the "better" path, or simply quit.
This is especially true for new players. I only started a few months ago, and I don't expect to be BiS in no time, but I have literally gotten to the point (having rolled a SW first) where my options are to play NO new content and instead just grind the daily quests over and over, hoping that I can get good enough gear after months and months to maybe be able to go to Sharandar or DR -OR- roll a "better" toon who can actually survive the content.
I did start a GWF who now has pretty much the same ilvl as my warlock, yet is MUCH more capable of surviving the campaign content where my SW is not.
My point is simple: Why are there all of these paths if only one third of them are even viable in gameplay?
There needs to be significant changes made to balance not only each of the classes, but also to make ALL paths viable in some way. Otherwise, this game is just a bunch of people running around with the same few builds, with no excitement or diversity.
I should also note: Add to this the fact that Mod 6 now has basically 2 types of armor for every single class, with no diversity or cool/unique set bonuses, and once again, everything is being distilled down into just a few options.
/endrant
BUT, I can't help but think that most/all of the biggest issues are caused by a complete lack of balance for different classes and different paths within those classes.
The problem is two-fold:
1. Everyone is being herded into just a few select paths that are optimal or even viable for actual gameplay, while the other paths simply languish and no one uses them. Isn't the point of having 3 separate paths per class that you should be able to select any of them and still be able to play/enjoy that particular path? Each class is being handicapped to a single or specific role (Except for maybe OP), of which no player is allowed to deviate or else their toon becomes entirely useless or even unplayable in end-game content.
Frankly, this is boring.
I am a fringe kind of player. In games of all types, I like to play "weird" builds, discover new things, and generally deviate from the mainstream. But, it seems to me that this is entirely unfeasible with the way that the game currently works.
2. You have constant battles on the forums about "this content is too hard" or "it's too easy to level up". The reality is that this is ENTIRELY dictated by the toon that you roll, and the path that you choose. All classes/paths are not given a relative strength, but instead, certain classes/paths are undeniably BETTER or more powerful in every way.
This makes it impossible for your game to be playable for all characters. It means that 75% of your playerbase who choose the "Wrong" path--sentinel gwf, warlock (pretty much all paths), etc--will find the game excruciating. In which case, they are either "forced" to change to the "better" path, or simply quit.
This is especially true for new players. I only started a few months ago, and I don't expect to be BiS in no time, but I have literally gotten to the point (having rolled a SW first) where my options are to play NO new content and instead just grind the daily quests over and over, hoping that I can get good enough gear after months and months to maybe be able to go to Sharandar or DR -OR- roll a "better" toon who can actually survive the content.
I did start a GWF who now has pretty much the same ilvl as my warlock, yet is MUCH more capable of surviving the campaign content where my SW is not.
My point is simple: Why are there all of these paths if only one third of them are even viable in gameplay?
There needs to be significant changes made to balance not only each of the classes, but also to make ALL paths viable in some way. Otherwise, this game is just a bunch of people running around with the same few builds, with no excitement or diversity.
I should also note: Add to this the fact that Mod 6 now has basically 2 types of armor for every single class, with no diversity or cool/unique set bonuses, and once again, everything is being distilled down into just a few options.
/endrant
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And what i have seen and heard from other SWs, it only produces bigger damage numbers in some dungeons... with the off trade, that it will get stuck on nearly anything, like doors for example, and therefore might not even help you out during some fights.
Temptation, what should be the "healer" path for SWs has been utterly destroyed with the changes in module 6, and there is not a single Devs word about when or even if this mess will gets ever fixed.
Anyway, before they even think about messing with any class, they should start with the bugged and broken things first, start to really repair them, so that everything works properly for a change...
And then they should take a good hard look at the overall difficulty ingame, and bring that down to some more reasonable level.
After that, they should continue towards upgrading some class paths, and we might end up with a game, that would be fun for everyone again.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
they are just underperfoming compared to other path.
with the exception of combat hr.
thats useless period.
My Archer is OK-ish soloing the open world parts of Sharandar but I wouldn't like to take him anywhere much harder right now. He was a pain to level through SpinRise though. Lucky I had a Health Stone from ages ago with plenty of charges left (now many fewer charges). As I said - borderline viable (just the right side of the border). Melee HR got destroyed and nobody plays it now. Not enough DPS and zero survivability. Trapper works because of CC, not because of the synergy between ranged and melee.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Not all true.
I will only speak for the TR side of that, Exec is only good with MI; Scoundrel is unplayable and Wk ONLY works with Sab. So where is the viability for all of the trees?
I'm certainly not experienced enough to inventory all of the balance issues, but just from my experience in playing two different classes, I can tell that there are major problems.
In my opinion, the point of the different paths should be that you can play the class entirely differently depending on which tree you choose, no? I mean, isn't the point of Sentinel essentially to play GWF as a tank? Which we know now is not at all feasible in all of the current content.
Likewise, SW has three REALLY cool paths, that could be used wildly differently - if you imagine a full-DPS with personal healing (fury), a healing path that is good enough to actually replace a cleric with a good party (temp), and even a build that can tank with the puppet (damnation).
My point is that a game where there is more variation and more playstyle potential would be WAY more fun. Instead, what happens is that each class has a single designated role, and if you choose the "wrong" tree, you become totally ineffective at that role, and essentially useless as a player. No fun.
This I am not so sure about.
When you consider that end-game content is about 50/50 between solo campaign content and 5-man dungeons, it becomes a question of not just "can this class/path survive solo content", but what is their role within the party content?
In that case, I think it's clear that each class pretty much has a singular and defined role (tank, healer, dps), which seems wrong to me. Wouldn't it be more fun if there was the option to build a SW or GWF that can tank?
To me, that's what is cool/fun/interesting about all of these different paths, if they can be played in different ways. But, instead, most paths are a variation of the same exact role with slightly different mechanics. And, of those, only one path is truly "optimal" for performing the single specific role of that class within a party setting.
Again, that is just my 2 cents. I am not an expert, nor do I have years of experience playing this game. It just seems to me that diversity is half of the fun, and any time you have clear balance issues, then it really diminishes the value of the game.
Really? You think combat HRs are viable for T2s...?
Or do you think, that anyone writing about how easy everything is, would even take a short amount of his time to help out other players, that are struggling with the content?
I don't think so.
Plus, what is the fun of playing group content if you are barely even contributing?
There is an element of fun to all of this, too, not just what is technically do-able. After all, why am I playing a "game" if it's simply a chore where I am always a drain on the group because of the path I chose?
DC: Faithful & Virt are still very much viable. Righteous should have never been there IMO, a DPS DC is a ridiculous idea but oh well.
GF: ALL paths are viable. Protector/Tact are great for pve, Conq for PVP.
SW: Damnation > all others. Temp is dead.
GWF: Destroyer is the only viable option.
HR: Trapper is the only viable option (combat HR's are utterly useless and nobody's going archery because please, people take hr's for CC now.)
CW: Renegade/Thaum are still viable. Oppressor isn't as bad either.
TR: Exec for PVE, Sabo for PVP, both viable.
Paladin: Still considered new, feats shall change and trees will get buffed/nerfed over time.
So overall it's a so-so issue. Some classes got obvious PVP OP paths, as well as paragons. More CC, more surviviablity. I honestly don't think the devs are testing the trees enough, or else some trees wouldn't look like they do atm (such as Sentinel tanking, what a joke.) I would like to see more diversity, that's for sure.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
The balance is skewed enough with the few monocultural class growths we have now, top contenders among each class vs. the ones from other classes... ...or rather this monoculture is due to the balance issues? IDK. Hen, egg, who really cares?
/sarcasm
Basically, there are several classes where one path outcompetes the others, which to some extent stems from deficits or weaknesses that were less relevant historically (HR: No heals was so-so OK in pre-Mod 6 - though Trapper was still the most popular variant. Also CC is only the one side - feated roots/snares damage easily tops the Prey single-target buff). So confronted with the Mod 6 threat environment, the whole situation gets exacerbated even more. Though in most cases the predominance of the one path above the others has been there before.
The classes where all the three paths are well viable, though often in different niches are IMHO CW, DC, TR.I can't really comment on GFs, though and GWFs were almost no issue in Mod 4/5 - viable, but fairly un-special, other classes were more efficient at DPSing and their survivability was absolutely not an issue.
A slightly different perspective is the "Paingiver-Chart"-view, though: There often one path has clear advantages - and is hence the most popular among players. This should IMHO not be confused with viability, though. And a thir perspective is the "Party-Need"-view. Which again shouldn't necessarily be mixed up with viability, because these needs shift with the group and with the ongoing and continuous changes.
Still, the two newer classes both suffer from having an internal imbalance - and only one of the classiccal 5...
Faith and Virt are a hideous PitA to solo throught the campaigns, can't kill shizzles unless way overgeared, and also constantly busy healing themselves. Though they're really great and extremely durable at that... ...ofc in Whale's World this tiny wee problem can easily be plastered over with two days' unskilled labour's worth of RL money.
Righteous is fast and furious and well viable there. And the canonically existent "Feel the wrath of my God!"-build. Remember, depending on your deity, you could also learn "Cause ... Wounds". 1st edition AD&D. So IMHO your's is a ridiculous opinion, but oh well.
IT still gives massive party buffing, but for personal dps.. it pales in comparison and you will never get near the top of the charts anymore, like you did previously. ITs a sad shade of itself.. mostly to do with the game rework and not dc changes. Its just not that competitive for personal dps..
You can just roll a alt , slam around 2.2-2.5k ilevel and let them live as a farming alt, for when you want to blow through things.. its not like doing anything with the DC earns you any money solo wise anyways.
If you want to argue that righteous is superior due to party buffs, thats another story.. one that we already have held several time in the class forums.
It boils down to if you just run premades or not.. for pve that is.
most pvpers will conclude faithful is the way to go..
Ive run and tested all three live this mod.. Frankly, just take faithful , add gift of haste on virt tree.. and viola your going to do do good everywhere.
I cant stand archery spec hr.. kudos to those who do.
Combat hr is dead.. long live the old combat hr..
My Archer, on the other hand, does fine. Granted I haven't been to IWD yet in Mod 6 but I have zero issues with Shar, DR or T1 dungeons. No problems with solo questing either.
So I would say Archer HR is viable but Combat? No way no how.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
First of all, we are dealing with hybrid 4e mechanics that are pretty much their own beast at this point, so we have paragon paths. Every skill in our blocks are viable, just some are optimal while others are less so. Builds are concentrating on certain features to maximize the role of the class. So of course they focus on the abilities that perform the best. No one says you have to use the current 'popular' builds, you can make your own out of skills you prefer or just want to use.
Will you get dropped or kicked from groups of strangers in a queue or preforms? Yes, most likely. That's why you should have at least a group of friends you prefer to run with or a friendly guild. If your guild is forcing specific builds on its members or requiring certain things, then one needs to consider why and if you chafe under such things then its time to find another guild. Now this is all general mind you. I've never really had issues with path, class, or build discrimination like some claim. I've always had things like a MoF and never got kicked because of it. We always had a grand old time, and the best thing was everything was on FIRE.
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