While not directly a TR issue, I do agree with this. A possible solution could be that when entering a PvP match, your AP gets set to 0. I consider it less of a problem in PvE, as we're all working together anyway and PvE isn't -or shouldn't be- about ego and solo performance. But personally I could live with the same clearing of AP when entering a dungeon.
Actually, they do acknowledge of spamming daily at the beginning of a pvp match so that they do reset everyone AP to 0 when entering a pvp instance. The problem is the DC's sigil, which refills AP in few seconds (100% AP at legendary ranks). Devs contradict themselves by resetting everyone's AP but letting them to refill it so easily with the DC artifact.
This artifact is like the new Emblem of Seldarine, which people abuse the heck out of it in pvp. In my opinion, it should be totally reworked and give something else not AP.
every D&D game i played the TR´s were deadly but more squishy than most other classes u could chose (thats why i never liked to play the class) its normally a challenge, but in this game .... never met a class more broken and bugged than in neverwinter online
ok now u come up with tons of other games, but that is my expirienced until now, playing D and D since a very long time
and the artgument Tr´s should be the class that allways wins one on one is absoulutely redicules
PVP is atm 50% 1 vs 1 at least, so you want to tell me i have to stick with team allways and stay away from other nodes, allways be aware of the big bad wolf out there?
dream on, thats your screwed kind of fantasy in your screwed world of playing an op nub-class
btw. morenthar i do understand your arguements, post and whining threads, sure i do
in your world playing a TR is a real challenge , playing a stile noone plays and get ripped most time it is indeed a challenge
Obviously, each class should have different strengths and weaknesses and use different tools, otherwise having different classes is pointless.
Well thank you for finally agreeing with me on something.
That is why focusing on 1v1 is stupid. Because if everything were balanced 1v1, then we WOULDN'T have "different strengths and weaknesses" for different classes. They'd all be the same, i.e., "balanced".
TR strength: high single-target damage. Therefore, will excel at the 1v1.
But the way PVP 'balancing' goes, classes get buffed and nerfed in some futile attempt to reach this mythical state called "balance", but along the way, the classes get homogenized to the point that they lose their unique talents, strengths and weaknesses.
It's not impossible to have both diversity in play and good balance between classes, but it's by no means easy either.
Yeah it is functionally impossible, in the scenario that you envision. You envision everyone be "balanced" in a 1v1 situation. There will always be one class that is better at single-target damage over others. There will always be one class that has higher defenses than others. There will always be one class that is a better controller than others. You cannot balance such disparate things.
Shall we stick with the OP by constructive ideas how to balance TRs?
1) The most important thing need to do is fixing bugs:
-Multi-proc SoD with DoT enchantments.
-Sabo's Knife's edge feat proc multiple times with Bloodpath - This bug happened with HR's Forest Ghost daily + Stormstep action class feature in mod 2.
-Concussive strike proc on Lightning enchantments' chain.
-Whirlwind blade should not give too much power (in some cases, double your current power) from hitting multiple targets.
2) Tone down some feats, powers:
-Cloud of steel needs to be reverted to 8 charges. Reason? The current CoS allows TRs to abuse either Shadowy Opportunity or Concussive Strike or multi proc SoD. I have seen so many TRs mindlessly flocking daggers for the whole pvp match regardless of in or out of stealth.
-Sabo's Knife's Edge should be moved to t3 instead of t2. This prevents Exe or Sco to spam dailies with the conjunction of DC's artifact and create some nasty chains of burst or chains of cc.
-Sabo's Shady Preparations should be moved to t3 instead of t1. For the same reason as Knife's Edge, Exe or Sco should not have abilities to spam their encounters.
-Exe's Aterial Cut should be moved to t3 instead of t1. This prevents Sco or Sabo to have too much unintended killing power. TRs have to choose either more sneaky or cc or damage, not all at the same time.
Regarding the Sigil of the Devoted: What would actually make sense, to some extent, would be to halve its effect in PvP. It's a logical continuation of the stealth Powrie attack that hits us on the way to the PvP map... :^[)
...but removing it from the game? No, sir, ma'am, sir. Instead it would be more useful to reduce SE damage by e.g. one third.
And what i think what is the core problem of the current TR overbearance is the "100% crit from stealth"-change. When that came upon us I immediately thought "Uh-oh..." Double or even triple that 100% CA from stealth - nice. But the autocrit mechanics free the PvP focused TR from putting points into crit, and free all those points to go into Pow and ArPen instead - which then makes OSK builds way easy...
they should put a 2 sec timer between dodge rolls. For any class
if you could only find the balance b/w damage and survivability...
- too much deflect and severity.
- ITC is a joke. <-- you can ITC after being disabled...
- Bloodbath and sigil of devoted is just too OP.
good thing, they fix perma daze.
they should put a 2 sec timer between dodge rolls. For any class
if you could only find the balance b/w damage and survivability...
- too much deflect and severity.
- ITC is a joke. <-- you can ITC after being disabled...
- Bloodbath and sigil of devoted is just too OP.
good thing, they fix perma daze.
There is a short pause between dodges (at least for a TR), but there is some sort of immunity frame carry over that I actually wish they would remove. I hate that I can dodge INTO a red zone and start attacking and be unaffected by the red zone.
I play a WK without ITC as I do realize just how powerful it is and I wanted more of a challenge
The bloodbath interaction with KE does need to be corrected and I am surprised it still remains and the concerns have not been addressed or acknowledged by the devs. The sigil is not the lone culprit with AP regain, the AP neck items are just as bad if not worse.
No they didn't fix the perma daze. With these changes it looks like I will be forced to respec my scoundrel (the one blamed for perma daze because concussive is more obvious when it occurs) into a saboteur (the actual superior dazer) if I want to be a daze TR in PvP. I don't know if they fixed the bug with the lightning enchantment as I never used one in the first place but it would be a shame if they decimated the scoundrel and left that broken interaction in. The scoundrel had superior short term dazing and could sustain a single long chain daze but the saboteur could readily sustain more long term single chain dazes than the scoundrel -- while being more stealthy and dealing more damage. Everyone complained about stealth TR's and cried "if only we could see them", but when you had one that you could see 95% of the time (scoundrel) it only ended up being blamed for everything when in actuality the changes to it will not reduce the crying one iota.
No they didn't fix the perma daze. With these changes it looks like I will be forced to respec my scoundrel (the one blamed for perma daze because concussive is more obvious when it occurs) into a saboteur (the actual superior dazer) if I want to be a daze TR in PvP. I don't know if they fixed the bug with the lightning enchantment as I never used one in the first place but it would be a shame if they decimated the scoundrel and left that broken interaction in. The scoundrel had superior short term dazing and could sustain a single long chain daze but the saboteur could readily sustain more long term single chain dazes than the scoundrel -- while being more stealthy and dealing more damage.
Finally, halleluja, someone who understands the implications of the 4-second daze they gave to "Shadow Strike", and WHY this actually allows Saboteuers to daze almost as frequently as Scoundrels, while having superior damage through SO. :rolleyes:
...God, the last time I tried explaining this to some of the GWF trolls who used to frequent in our class forums to throw a tantrum... I was never able to get him to understand.
Every time I tried to explain how the Sabos were dazing as long as us scoundrels... nope. Nobody gets it. LoL
Yeah it is functionally impossible, in the scenario that you envision. You envision everyone be "balanced" in a 1v1 situation. There will always be one class that is better at single-target damage over others. There will always be one class that has higher defenses than others. There will always be one class that is a better controller than others. You cannot balance such disparate things.
Finally, halleluja, someone who understands the implications of the 4-second daze they gave to "Shadow Strike", and WHY this actually allows Saboteuers to daze almost as frequently as Scoundrels, while having superior damage through SO. :rolleyes:
...God, the last time I tried explaining this to some of the GWF trolls who used to frequent in our class forums to throw a tantrum... I was never able to get him to understand.
Every time I tried to explain how the Sabos were dazing as long as us scoundrels... nope. Nobody gets it. LoL
I remember you were the first to bring this up I think and it made perfect sense to me when I considered what you said. I posted this recently in the pts feedback for TR in relation to the scoundrel nerf, actually asking that it be dropped to 1 sec base with +.5 per rank and half on players. With the KE 'bug' they can actually chain it longer if they really want to.
A lot of people don't seem to understand the situation with shadow strike and how a sab can use it in ways that a scoundrel cannot and I am including 'elite' TR (just ask them they will tell you they are elite with the highest kills to death or highest rank on leaderboard -- oh but wait, you will not have to ask them they will readily volunteer that information in between frequent insults of 'nub' and 'trash' and similar stimulating insults).
{nerf ITC to 100% deflection. No cc immunity. -> requires more skill to play.
OR
make SoD and gutteborn touch 1/2-2/3 effective on players.}
AND {fix GWF dodge mechanic - they cannot dodge SE.}
totally forgot about dazing on entering stealth: 0.5-1 sec on players maximum, or better remove it, xD
These discussions are pointless until a Dev stands up and says "Here we are, give us your opinions, we are listening."
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
These discussions are pointless until a Dev stands up and says "Here we are, give us your opinions, we are listening."
hey, mate:-) sorry, but I disagree. They maybe don't have the straight effect, but... Something changes, no?:-) Maybe just our attitude tho, let's don't be optimistic:-)
It's okay Theren .. but there have been dozens of these type posts in the last 4 months. Dozens. The Dev's havnt given even a hint that they care or that they are willing to take the community's suggestions and think about them. I'm a little burned right now anyway, because of the changes coming in mod 6. If something major doesnt change with fridays last preview patch b4 mod 6 is scheduled to go live, you wont have to worry about people playing EXEC path TR --- and it is absolutely not the community's fault, we spoke up every single week about SoD being broken and what their new powers we're like and how they affected the game.
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
It's okay Theren .. but there have been dozens of these type posts in the last 4 months. Dozens. The Dev's havnt given even a hint that they care or that they are willing to take the community's suggestions and think about them. I'm a little burned right now anyway, because of the changes coming in mod 6. If something major doesnt change with fridays last preview patch b4 mod 6 is scheduled to go live, you wont have to worry about people playing EXEC path TR --- and it is absolutely not the community's fault, we spoke up every single week about SoD being broken and what their new powers we're like and how they affected the game.
Exec and scoundrel will diminish, only leaving the perma stealth path once again.
It's okay Theren .. but there have been dozens of these type posts in the last 4 months. Dozens. The Dev's havnt given even a hint that they care or that they are willing to take the community's suggestions and think about them. I'm a little burned right now anyway, because of the changes coming in mod 6. If something major doesnt change with fridays last preview patch b4 mod 6 is scheduled to go live, you wont have to worry about people playing EXEC path TR --- and it is absolutely not the community's fault, we spoke up every single week about SoD being broken and what their new powers we're like and how they affected the game.
mate, I've never worried about execs much, as I'm playing HR.:-) My opinion is that for HR both exec and sab are l2p issue. And I haven't been paying attention to changes for last 2 weeks a lot. I know that there were many bugs there - not wasting time to test broken stuff.
Kaelacs Number Crunching Guide seems to hint at that factor formula, but he's doing the math on damage (as you can get hard data from ACt there), not CC duration (which is difficult to determine). Still, there the factor rule is applied, and that means that stacking effects several different sources more often follows the multiplicative rulle, which finally gives you better yields than the additve.
...still, this admittedly is mere nitpicking, of little to marginal real-game-world relevance...
Actually I just realized that the scoundrel is going to be the new super perma stealth -- think about it, nobody is going to see one, anywhere, ever...
mate, I've never worried about execs much, as I'm playing HR.:-) My opinion is that for HR both exec and sab are l2p issue. And I haven't been paying attention to changes for last 2 weeks a lot. I know that there were many bugs there - not wasting time to test broken stuff.
Last weekends patch looked a lot more polished than previous but there are still some huge issues and I think there's so much they are trying to do that alot of issues are going to remain post-mod6 and I think they hope to sort them out later. The whole stat's curve is one of them that I think will still get another look at some point since some of it just doesnt make much sense but I dont think they've gotten enough time to really get it tuned properly.
The whole level 61-70 feels really "slapped together" with duct-tape and chewing gum imo.
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Comments
Actually, they do acknowledge of spamming daily at the beginning of a pvp match so that they do reset everyone AP to 0 when entering a pvp instance. The problem is the DC's sigil, which refills AP in few seconds (100% AP at legendary ranks). Devs contradict themselves by resetting everyone's AP but letting them to refill it so easily with the DC artifact.
This artifact is like the new Emblem of Seldarine, which people abuse the heck out of it in pvp. In my opinion, it should be totally reworked and give something else not AP.
ok now u come up with tons of other games, but that is my expirienced until now, playing D and D since a very long time
and the artgument Tr´s should be the class that allways wins one on one is absoulutely redicules
PVP is atm 50% 1 vs 1 at least, so you want to tell me i have to stick with team allways and stay away from other nodes, allways be aware of the big bad wolf out there?
dream on, thats your screwed kind of fantasy in your screwed world of playing an op nub-class
btw. morenthar i do understand your arguements, post and whining threads, sure i do
in your world playing a TR is a real challenge , playing a stile noone plays and get ripped most time it is indeed a challenge
Well thank you for finally agreeing with me on something.
That is why focusing on 1v1 is stupid. Because if everything were balanced 1v1, then we WOULDN'T have "different strengths and weaknesses" for different classes. They'd all be the same, i.e., "balanced".
TR strength: high single-target damage. Therefore, will excel at the 1v1.
But the way PVP 'balancing' goes, classes get buffed and nerfed in some futile attempt to reach this mythical state called "balance", but along the way, the classes get homogenized to the point that they lose their unique talents, strengths and weaknesses.
Then don't destroy class diversity in the name of the format.
This is a TEAM game, if you don't want to play on a team, then play a FPS.
Yeah it is functionally impossible, in the scenario that you envision. You envision everyone be "balanced" in a 1v1 situation. There will always be one class that is better at single-target damage over others. There will always be one class that has higher defenses than others. There will always be one class that is a better controller than others. You cannot balance such disparate things.
HR ones that cost 25-50% AP cost maybe.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
1) The most important thing need to do is fixing bugs:
-Multi-proc SoD with DoT enchantments.
-Sabo's Knife's edge feat proc multiple times with Bloodpath - This bug happened with HR's Forest Ghost daily + Stormstep action class feature in mod 2.
-Concussive strike proc on Lightning enchantments' chain.
-Whirlwind blade should not give too much power (in some cases, double your current power) from hitting multiple targets.
2) Tone down some feats, powers:
-Cloud of steel needs to be reverted to 8 charges. Reason? The current CoS allows TRs to abuse either Shadowy Opportunity or Concussive Strike or multi proc SoD. I have seen so many TRs mindlessly flocking daggers for the whole pvp match regardless of in or out of stealth.
-Sabo's Knife's Edge should be moved to t3 instead of t2. This prevents Exe or Sco to spam dailies with the conjunction of DC's artifact and create some nasty chains of burst or chains of cc.
-Sabo's Shady Preparations should be moved to t3 instead of t1. For the same reason as Knife's Edge, Exe or Sco should not have abilities to spam their encounters.
-Exe's Aterial Cut should be moved to t3 instead of t1. This prevents Sco or Sabo to have too much unintended killing power. TRs have to choose either more sneaky or cc or damage, not all at the same time.
...but removing it from the game? No, sir, ma'am, sir. Instead it would be more useful to reduce SE damage by e.g. one third.
And what i think what is the core problem of the current TR overbearance is the "100% crit from stealth"-change. When that came upon us I immediately thought "Uh-oh..." Double or even triple that 100% CA from stealth - nice. But the autocrit mechanics free the PvP focused TR from putting points into crit, and free all those points to go into Pow and ArPen instead - which then makes OSK builds way easy...
if you could only find the balance b/w damage and survivability...
- too much deflect and severity.
- ITC is a joke. <-- you can ITC after being disabled...
- Bloodbath and sigil of devoted is just too OP.
good thing, they fix perma daze.
There is a short pause between dodges (at least for a TR), but there is some sort of immunity frame carry over that I actually wish they would remove. I hate that I can dodge INTO a red zone and start attacking and be unaffected by the red zone.
I play a WK without ITC as I do realize just how powerful it is and I wanted more of a challenge
The bloodbath interaction with KE does need to be corrected and I am surprised it still remains and the concerns have not been addressed or acknowledged by the devs. The sigil is not the lone culprit with AP regain, the AP neck items are just as bad if not worse.
No they didn't fix the perma daze. With these changes it looks like I will be forced to respec my scoundrel (the one blamed for perma daze because concussive is more obvious when it occurs) into a saboteur (the actual superior dazer) if I want to be a daze TR in PvP. I don't know if they fixed the bug with the lightning enchantment as I never used one in the first place but it would be a shame if they decimated the scoundrel and left that broken interaction in. The scoundrel had superior short term dazing and could sustain a single long chain daze but the saboteur could readily sustain more long term single chain dazes than the scoundrel -- while being more stealthy and dealing more damage. Everyone complained about stealth TR's and cried "if only we could see them", but when you had one that you could see 95% of the time (scoundrel) it only ended up being blamed for everything when in actuality the changes to it will not reduce the crying one iota.
Finally, halleluja, someone who understands the implications of the 4-second daze they gave to "Shadow Strike", and WHY this actually allows Saboteuers to daze almost as frequently as Scoundrels, while having superior damage through SO. :rolleyes:
...God, the last time I tried explaining this to some of the GWF trolls who used to frequent in our class forums to throw a tantrum... I was never able to get him to understand.
Every time I tried to explain how the Sabos were dazing as long as us scoundrels... nope. Nobody gets it. LoL
and it shouldn't be the same class, like it's now
I remember you were the first to bring this up I think and it made perfect sense to me when I considered what you said. I posted this recently in the pts feedback for TR in relation to the scoundrel nerf, actually asking that it be dropped to 1 sec base with +.5 per rank and half on players. With the KE 'bug' they can actually chain it longer if they really want to.
A lot of people don't seem to understand the situation with shadow strike and how a sab can use it in ways that a scoundrel cannot and I am including 'elite' TR (just ask them they will tell you they are elite with the highest kills to death or highest rank on leaderboard -- oh but wait, you will not have to ask them they will readily volunteer that information in between frequent insults of 'nub' and 'trash' and similar stimulating insults).
OR
make SoD and gutteborn touch 1/2-2/3 effective on players.}
AND {fix GWF dodge mechanic - they cannot dodge SE.}
totally forgot about dazing on entering stealth: 0.5-1 sec on players maximum, or better remove it, xD
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Exec and scoundrel will diminish, only leaving the perma stealth path once again.
1 / 1 + CC resistance(= deflection severity)
So if there's a halfing with around 15% extra CC resistance from Tenacity that deflects a 3 second stun:
1 / 1 + 0.10(race) + 0.15(tenacity) + 0.75(deflect) = 0.5 = half duration = 1.5 secs
i want mod4 tr back because u could see who were the real skilled trs
regards
...not completely sure it's straightforward additive. Could also be separate multplicators (which would be even more beneficial):
1 / [1 + 0.10(race)] * 1 / [1 + 0.15(tenacity)] * 1 / [1 + 0.75(deflect)] = 1 / (1.1 * 1.15 * 1.75) = 1 / 2.21375 = 45% duration.
Kaelacs Number Crunching Guide seems to hint at that factor formula, but he's doing the math on damage (as you can get hard data from ACt there), not CC duration (which is difficult to determine). Still, there the factor rule is applied, and that means that stacking effects several different sources more often follows the multiplicative rulle, which finally gives you better yields than the additve.
...still, this admittedly is mere nitpicking, of little to marginal real-game-world relevance...
Last weekends patch looked a lot more polished than previous but there are still some huge issues and I think there's so much they are trying to do that alot of issues are going to remain post-mod6 and I think they hope to sort them out later. The whole stat's curve is one of them that I think will still get another look at some point since some of it just doesnt make much sense but I dont think they've gotten enough time to really get it tuned properly.
The whole level 61-70 feels really "slapped together" with duct-tape and chewing gum imo.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury