How to fix TRs, need top players discussing without flaming.

madness907

For now the forums get flooded about how OP TRs are and lets face it, the devs dont know what to do about them.
Because even if they are top tier in pvp, in pve they are still somewhat lacking. So if the TRs get nerfed in their current state, it will put them back to a near useless state.

My suggestion is very simple, make their aoe skills stronger, and their single target ones (like lashing blade, weaker, but with reduced cooldown?)

I would really like to get some constructive posts, so by the time the devs read this, something might be finally done about it.

One can only dream right?

Throw out any ideas you might have, they are always welcome!

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madness907

This is the kind of replies i am looking for. But also with possible fixes, not the nerf X but also have an alternative.

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chestnut13

magenubbie wrote: »

Make AoEs stronger and single target skills weaker? What ancient barrel of ale have you dug up and started tasting? More importantly, why aren't you sharing?
But all kidding aside, no. My TR isn't any fun to play in PvE as it is thanks to the last bunch of pvp-related class reworks. I HATE being an AoE class as a TR. A TR is a single target class and should have remained so.
In PvP things are a bit differently. Here's my thoughts in random order:

• If you are caught flat-footed and alone against a TR, you deserve to die. Sorry, but that's the way it should be. Assassins only have 1 purpose: to kill you helplessly before someone else kills him. Preferable targets are the leader / strongest person on the other side. The art of war is clear in this. If you can sacrifice a character with weak defense to kill someone with strong offense, that buys you time, which you can use to gain points.
• Players have continuously refused to pack the correct tools for the job. We all go single target because we want to hurt the people we can see the hardest, while the TR can only seriously be annoyed and targeted by AoEs due to stealth. Sorry, but this type of complaining is just silly and the PvP people should know this or go back to the ToB to practice some more. If you don't look out for eachother, don't come crying someone else is effective at his/her job.
• A TR, once successful at his job, should have to fear for his life. An escape button like ItC is fine, but ItC, smoke bomb AND stealth? Too much of a good thing, and seriously unbalancing things. He should have to rely on his team to provide him a way out by keeping the surviving opponents busy.
• The TR design is, as with other of our classes, seriously broken in design. It looks fine when you look at their separate skills/feats, but is over the top when combined. Even after the AoE rework of the class, it's aimed at security and maximum efficiency at the same time, while other classes must struggle to create a balance between offense and defense. This is much like what they did with the GWF a few mods back. Most importantly, the trade-off in other stats required to achieve (almost) perma stealth/perma control is either too low and not properly calculated through for BiS stats. I have no objection to the 3 different paths: stealth, control or hard hitting. I actually like those options. But you shouldn't be able to get 2 out of 3 at the same time. The control and stealth paths shouldn't come close to the damage an executioner does.

So.. should lashing blade crit from stealth? Sure. That's THE backstab the TR has. It should produce a solid stream of brown liquid out of your rear end. If you're an executioner. It should still hurt if you're on one of the 2 other paths, but it shouldn't kill people just as easily as if you were an executioner. It may come close against weaker opponents, but no more.

They have their feat trees too close to eachother. So much in fact, that there's no point in being an executioner if you can have its power with tons of stealth or control as well. I'm not in game atm, but l can think of a few things that shouldn't belong in the general tree skill.

• Tenacious concealment: Should be a feat in the saboteur tree and create a similar bonus to control or crit/CA/power in the other 2 trees.
• First strike: in the executioner tree. Create a similar bonus for the other 2 trees.
• Lurker's assault: should not be a MI daily for starters.

Other suggestions:

• Make (stealth) recovery less effective on TRs up to the point where it takes full recovery enchants to maintain it using the saboteur tree. There should be no other way to maintain (almost) perma stealth.
• Balance the use of power, control and stealth between the 3 feat trees. There should be a distinctive differently way of playing between the 3 trees. If you can control, you should to require that controlled time to do your job. If you rely on defense (stealth), that should also come at the price of power. If you go full power (executioner) you have little (normal) stealth and very few control options but hit like a brick wall.
• Don't give the TR general skills that can affect the balance gained by point 2. Consider adding feat-tree dependent skill sets similar to paragon paths.

As a TR, this is perhaps the most balanced, cogent, and fair evaluation of TR issues I have read. I hope the devs take the time to read this.

godlysoul2

magenubbie wrote: »

...

This has some pretty solid points in it

mirrorballs

Need a global nerf to Sigil of the Divine and the AP cloaks, more than anything, ASAP. More than half the time a TR survives a situation which he previously would not have -- no matter how good he is -- it's because of the combination of BB, Knife's Edge, and the pure ability to spam Dailies so often in the first place. 100% of the time, a GWF or a SW that ends up dead right at the start of the match, is a victim of SigDiv + Shocking Execution. Almost ALL incidents of 'unbelievable feats' a TR achieves in game, be it PvP or PvE, it's the broken AP gain. Stuff like TRs being able to repeatedly spam BB every 20s flat? It's the AP gain.

Of course, Daily spamming at the beginning of the match is equally lame for all classes as well. The effects or efficiency may differ, but to ALL classes Dailies as in-game powers were never meant to be spammed in under 30 second intervals. It's lame in PvP, it's lame in PvE, and to all those who complain about all sorts of things in the name of 'balance' it's the one thing people will immediately huddle-up and go hush-hush when it's raised as a topic -- instead of openly admitting how overboard it is.

suicidalgodot

mirrorballs wrote: »

Need a global nerf to Sigil of the Divine and the AP cloaks, more than anything, ASAP.[...]

...so you suggest that, because one class' dailies are somewhat over the top, everybody should suffer?

Come to the dark side, eh???

mirrorballs

suicidalgodot wrote: »

...so you suggest that, because one class' dailies are somewhat over the top, everybody should suffer?

Come to the dark side, eh???

So which classes dailies were designed and intended to be spammed so often?

Just because it's not a directly OP/killing power, it's OK for people to spam around dailies as if they were encounters?

Face it, friend. The reason why you like spamming your own dailies, whatever class you are, is the exact same reason why it shouldn't be allowed. Dailies are special powers with special functionality. No class should be spamming it.

pointsman

mirrorballs wrote: »

Need a global nerf to Sigil of the Divine and the AP cloaks, more than anything, ASAP. More than half the time a TR survives a situation which he previously would not have -- no matter how good he is -- it's because of the combination of BB, Knife's Edge, and the pure ability to spam Dailies so often in the first place. 100% of the time, a GWF or a SW that ends up dead right at the start of the match, is a victim of SigDiv + Shocking Execution. Almost ALL incidents of 'unbelievable feats' a TR achieves in game, be it PvP or PvE, it's the broken AP gain. Stuff like TRs being able to repeatedly spam BB every 20s flat? It's the AP gain.

Of course, Daily spamming at the beginning of the match is equally lame for all classes as well. The effects or efficiency may differ, but to ALL classes Dailies as in-game powers were never meant to be spammed in under 30 second intervals. It's lame in PvP, it's lame in PvE, and to all those who complain about all sorts of things in the name of 'balance' it's the one thing people will immediately huddle-up and go hush-hush when it's raised as a topic -- instead of openly admitting how overboard it is.

You will have to pry my CW's Legendary DC Sigil from his cold dead hands.

rayrdan

with 120k hp people will need 100 procs of shadow opportunity to die.....vs less than 7 procs of storm spell....
and they still complain...shadow opportunity hits for 1500-1600 hp and its not going to increase. HP got doubled, halved effectiveness.
you will see way more executioner. Personally i will go scoundrel, even with the nerf it should be enough

suicidalgodot

mirrorballs wrote: »

[...]
The reason why you like spamming your own dailies, whatever class you are, is the exact same reason why it shouldn't be allowed. Dailies are special powers with special functionality. No class should be spamming it.

...and you're the one prophet who has seen this light?

C'mon, there's so much stuff buffing AP gain that you shoud've come to realize that your point of view is a bit obsolete, now. Like items (that Sigil, Off-hand feature), companions (three different Sprites), campaign boons (Elven Haste [Shar], Winters Bounty [IwD]) feats (won't even start a list here....) - all of this seems to suggest to me that the frequent use of daily powers is an option or path you can choose to go and supported by the game's design. And you want to trash all that because one class has a daily that gives them an edge in a certain part of the game with certain builds and sometimes exploits, too?

My, my, my, oh my...

rayrdan

suicidalgodot wrote: »

...and you're the one prophet who has seen this light?

C'mon, there's so much stuff buffing AP gain that you shoud've come to realize that your point of view is a bit obsolete, now. Like items (that Sigil, Off-hand feature), companions (three different Sprites), campaign boons (Elven Haste [Shar], Winters Bounty [IwD]) feats (won't even start a list here....) - all of this seems to suggest to me that the frequent use of daily powers is an option or path you can choose to go and supported by the game's design. And you want to trash all that because one class has a daily that gives them an edge in a certain part of the game with certain builds and sometimes exploits, too?

My, my, my, oh my...

Following your reasoning perma daze, piercing damage and procs of variois genres are a path you can choose and supported by the game's design.
Oh for the note oppressive force is not the most balanced daily, like its not tyrannical threat, like its not shocking execution, like its not ice knife etc etc.

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suicidalgodot

rayrdan wrote: »

Following your reasoning perma daze, piercing damage and procs of variois genres are a path you can choose and supported by the game's design.
Oh for the note oppressive force is not the most balanced daily, like its not tyrannical threat, like its not shocking execution, like its not ice knife etc etc.

Some dailies might bee more powerful than others (Ice Knife e.g. isn't really...) and IMHO there is room for improvement. But then this should be done on the OP daily/-ies in question, as other classes' frequent use of dailies might be central to certain modes of play, while not OP...

Examples would be HRs Forest Ghosting repetitvely, or DCs casting Hallowed Ground with high frequency. And TT: Ever used it? Once it's up, it really is painful, but if the enemy team let you manage to pull that 3 second stunt unmolested, they IMO deserve to get burnt a bit, it's way less horrible than it is in PvE. OpForce? meh. On par with Seismic Shot or Flame Strike, some CC, some damage, sometimes annoying but not really OP, there are plenty of Encounters that are more painful.

Sorry I got a wee aggressive there, but the thing is: There's no real point in nerfing a whole class of skills when one example of those is improperly balanced.

Furthermore, from what I read, the doubling of HP, especially with the reduced damage gain from stats, should already somewhat fix that SE point.

Perma daze is another can of beans. Annoying as this can be, it only really works in 1on1. Anybody else around, it's easy to deter or even kill the TR doing it. Similar to Trappers' perma-root. A valid countermeasure from a game mechanical viewpoint, here, would be to introduce an upper limit of cocatenation, like "after 15 seconds of stun form one source you are immune to that from that source for 10 seconds". But basically, in PvP someone will have to be killed eventually, and annoying as that might be, that can be you.

TL;DR: Nerf the specific skill, not the whole class of skills. Or the whole character class.

rayrdan

xsayajinx1 wrote: »

@ rayrdan: As far as I know SO is scaled on weapon damage which will increase with lvl 70.

My suggestions to fix TRs aren't changing or reducing effectiveness of any feats/dailies or encounters.

It's more about fixreal issues:
- Knife's Edge + Bloodbath --> shouldn't reduce CDs on each tick of BB.
- Shadow of Demise + DoT-enchants --> shouldn't multi proc anymore.
- Concussive strike + Lightning Enchantment --> shouldn't daze with each lightning chain.

As you can see we have in each of three paths the chance to abuse poor implemented synergy between feats/dailies/ encounters/wep chants! Fix them all at once or people will just switch to next best path.

First of all fix such bugs.... then we could go deeper into other things, my opinion!

weapon damage will not increase like hp, not even close.

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vortix44

It's not that TR is intrinsically OP, it's that all the other classes suddenly become dead wood when entering PvP.
My 21k main does it acceptably well in solo pve (ok that's Mod5, in Mod6 that will be another story). When facing a group of foes it will fight the Melee ones then take care of the ranged archer or mage. My 250-350 ping is not an issue, a one-second bonus given to the foes won't kill my char.
Now in pvp... My same main becomes squishy, slow, vulnerable to burst, vulnerable to Dots, unable to deliver decent damage, unable to complete even one rotation. PvP is just waiting for death.

With my 13k TR alt it's so different. I have no idea how to play it, I don't know the ranges, the radius or whatever. But it feels so comfortable. I hear something? Poof, invisible. And safe. I see someone? Poof, invisible. And deadly. There is no way the red guy can prevent me from performing a whole rotation. Unless he's a TR too.

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schietindebux

Quote Originally Posted by magenubbie View Post
If you are caught flat-footed and alone against a TR, you deserve to die. Sorry, but that's the way it should be. Assassins only have 1 purpose: to kill you helplessly before someone else kills him.

i only would aggree if the TR falls dead to the ground in case of one- or twohitting the tank or any other player 1 vs 1

Originally Posted by by macjae
And fighters should win fights because they're fighters and fighting is what they do. So a TR should always lose a 1v1 fight against a fighter. And let's not forget, once a hunter is on to you, you shouldn't be able to get away before the hunter brings his prey down. And killing someone that channels powerful arcane or divine energies? No way. It would also be interesting if they included an assassin class, but so far the closest we get is the executioner TR; the other two don't qualify conceptually as anything close to an "assassin".

Statements trying to justify imbalanced gameplay on a conceptual basis are always silly, and generally subject to equally silly counter-statements. No class should have a massive and easy advantage over nearly every other class in 1v1 situations, because PvP frequently forces those situations.

i totally agree, and don´t forget the evil warlock, a man who practises black magic! He should be able to make you kill yourself by attacking him once

Originally Posted by morenthar
This thread should be locked as it has been done over and over. It's the same people with the same slanted views of the TR. They were at a comfortable point of power against TRs and this mod made them have to adjust. Most of these players are CWs, just go look at their handles on the leaderboard. Many of these players have multiple BiS/maxed characters which means they either spend an enormous amount of money on the game or they exploit the game. These players don't like to lose.

Most just want to nerf the class to the ground. Then mirrorballs, suddenlyslow, myself and other players come in and agree with the things that need to get fixed, disagree with the things that really aren't the problem.

The OP: "I would really like to get some constructive posts, so by the time the devs read this, something might be finally done about it."

Things are being done about it. Read the freakin' preview patch notes. Scoundrels got adjusted, so you have no more excuses there. but only in PvP. If you think TRs are lacking in PvE, they really aren't. As a WK Scoundrel I can CC and do enough AoE to out DPS many PvE builds.

The Devs are fully aware. They have been aware since we told the during testing months ago. You knew that already. You are simply trolling the nerf-herders. So the thread should be locked.

I more or less think it is exactly you who thinks everything is fine, even with one single nerf (u whine in every thread about, all time , lol) it isn´t done by far!
btw warlock gets nerfed too, taking the only thing he can, damagedealing, he has nearly no cc, no dodge, no damagereduction, you think that its needed?
So go troll anywhere else, since some of the named TR you mentioned are aware of the situation and try to give conceptionel solutions to fix problems

suddenlyslow

As a scoundrel TR I already do less single target damage on control immune targets than a like geared/played SW, CW, HR, GWF, DC so I certainly would not advocate lowering it even more.

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pointsman

macjae wrote: »

Statements trying to justify imbalanced gameplay on a conceptual basis are always silly, and generally subject to equally silly counter-statements. No class should have a massive and easy advantage over nearly every other class in 1v1 situations, because PvP frequently forces those situations.

This is a ROLE-playing game based on TEAM-oriented gameplay.

If you want nothing but 1v1's, go play FPS games.

But if you want a game in which different classes bring DIFFERENT abilities to a TEAM in order to meet some objective, then don't destroy the diversity of different classes.

A CW and a TR should not be on equal footing in a 1v1, ever. All else equal, the TR should have the advantage. Because the TR *should have* high single-target damage, and the CW *should have* weak single-target damage and weak defenses. That is inherent in their roles.

And I say this with a CW as my main.

suicidalgodot

Hah! The one kill-all constructive suggestion this thread needs:

In the Queue menu for PvP add a tickable checkbox toggle: "TRs allowed?"

marnival

Most just want to nerf the class to the ground. Then mirrorballs, suddenlyslow, myself and other players come in and agree with the things that need to get fixed, disagree with the things that really aren't the problem.

LOL this sure is a fantasy game and you live it full out.
It would be easy to fill a hole page with comments like l2p, exe is easy to dodge if you die to it your a nab, its not Trs blame the devs, cc is no problem you can walk out of it etc etc from the 3 you.

Ha! I've been petitioning for TR changes since before you even knew of the existence of any problems. This thread is simply a sounding board for the typical whiners who want to go far beyond fixing the TR. They want to destroy the class. It's another redundant nerf thread that is technically against forum rules.

Few if any have defended the Trs endless broken skills with more bullshi*'*t then you have.

The Devs are fully aware. They have been aware since we told the during testing months ago. You knew that already. You are simply trolling the nerf-herders. So the thread should be locked.

Oh yea, last module went live Trs run all over and soloed dragons until a dev was brought ONLINE and showed in person. His comment was -- OMG I had no idea they could do that!!
Same broken skill had been all over preveiw forum for over 3 weeks.

Same happend to CW, went live with stuff that was warned about weeks ahead so no Devs are not awere of alot of things.

You have a big tendency to call everybody that suggest anything about balance and TR for *nerfherders and come up with things like --

Many of these players have multiple BiS/maxed characters which means they either spend an enormous amount of money on the game or they exploit the game. These players don't like to lose.

Its always somebodys else fault and it always ends with Tr being ok with some minor adjustment.

I just love when Leaderboard is brought up and you come up with its of no value, dont prove anything etc etc or your last comment that HR is even more broken and can EASY have the same KD ratio just lol.

Your the one that want it easy and your the one that are terrified that TR would be brought to anything close to balance.
You proved that more then enough during your 100ds of silly posts little troll....

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ironzerg79

magenubbie wrote: »

Make AoEs stronger and single target skills weaker? What ancient barrel of ale have you dug up and started tasting? More importantly, why aren't you sharing?
But all kidding aside, no. My TR isn't any fun to play in PvE as it is thanks to the last bunch of pvp-related class reworks. I HATE being an AoE class as a TR. A TR is a single target class and should have remained so.
In PvP things are a bit differently. Here's my thoughts in random order:...

I don't always read PvP balance threads, but when I see magenubbie posting I prefer to pay attention to it.

If all the PvP feedback was as well-reasoned and thought out as this, we'd be playing a very different and substantially more enjoyable PvP game.

maegmaag

An overhaul of stealth mechanic and HiPS, getting rid of HiPS completely being the easiest and quickest solution (also not rly the best as there should be HiPS class feature skill instead). ItC cd increased and its duration maybe reduced, so its used to escape/run away instead of it being additional tool to troll the opponent.

Also i agree with @magenubbie, there should be bigger differences between trickster, rogue and assassin. Unfortunately we wont c anything any time soon if ever.