just not be another person repeating platitudes only to ensure the supremacy of his class. no one here is against tr. for me, and I already say some times, trs should be the top class in damage. enjoy your class and forget that.
Also, I'd like to reinforce another point. GWF is primary a damage dealer, not a tank. Sentinel is a secondary tank and by that design should also be either secondary controler / support (but GWF has pretty much no viable control or support skills so we can discard that) or secondary damage dealer. Meaning he should deal less damage than pure DDs but more than pure tanks / support classes. Currently, at 9k power I deal roughly half of the damage DD classes do and 50%-100% (depending on their build) more damage compared to GF. I think that's a pretty balanced spot. And thus the 300% weapon damage suggestion.
Exactly!
I couldn't have said it better, and probably the second thing that irks me the most about GWF. Where's our support skills, our useful encounters? Why are the vast majority of them a waste of space? It should be the other way around. When I started my CW I felt totally overwhelmed by the choices of amazing encounters to use until I figured out my playstyle.
If you're a Destroyer with offense specs you should absolutely be a DPS class. At least capable of competing with TR and CW for that 2nd spot, but rarely getting 1st.
And GWF is no tank, not even close. Full def spec Sentinel is still horrible at A.) Maintaining mob threat, B.) Actually taking hits. When people say "Off-Tank," myself included, we are referring to the fact that GWF can sprint out of the way of heavy attacks, jump into the side of mob for combat advantage and continue attacking usually before that first hit has even landed.
We kite, we don't tank hits. End of story.
Currently I can still hold aggro on certain mobs (Golems in eLoL tend to love me) provided I rush to them first and Mark with TR. Yes I use Powerful Challenge. I'm good enough at kiting that I can negate several heavy hits against me or team members and generally annoy mobs in this fashion until they're down. That's still useful but only if there are no GFs in the group, who are many times more useful at the exact same thing and can support group to boot.
What bothers me the most is the fact that I'm placing only above GFs or Supports in DPS when I used to account for a SIGNIFICANT % of the damage dealt. In pugs I almost always got #1. With my guild I usually scored #2. Our heaviest DD could score 10-12m in eLoL. In runs with him I usually got 2nd at about 6-8m. That was without fail. Now I get 3-4m while TR is getting 6-8m.
So GWF is still crippled but everyone else gets a lightsaber? Not cool.
- Destroyer, being not viable for PvP anymore, should have PvE damage buffed a lot, and survivability increased to allow him to AoE melee in dungeons
- Sentinel should have damage reduced further and not linked to intimidation anymore, but tankyness increased with, for example, a buff to regeneration. I'd say intimidation doing half your power NO chance to crit, flat damage affected by DR, DRI and nothing else. Healing depression decreased by 60% through capstone. Tankyness through regeneration. Balance to make them less DPS (intimidation still hits like a truck), way behind a destroyer or a instigator, and more of a tank/ CC melee fighter.
- Instigator almost fine should have deflect chance buff and determination gain buff to make it a true hybrid tank/DPS for PvP.
It should be quite clear by now I think. Someone like you with alot of game experience should know. Neverwinter is all about damage and buffing, in that order. There is no tanking thru threat unless you have the highest aoe damage on party. Thats why even Int Sentinels in Mod 4 had trouble keeping aggro away from Wizards/SWs etc. You cant propose a damage nerf to the "tank" GWF because he will be left with nothing else period. A GWF cant buff and even the greatest aoe build we had could not steal aggro from the ranged classes. If the Sentinel for example is changed the way you propose into a low damage, high survavibility tanklite he will be absolutely useless in end game PVE ( where I am ) and nothing but a nuisance in PVP easily kited or ignored by everyone.
Sorry to say this to an experienced GWF player like you but get with the program already. Its pretty obvious how Cryptic does things and its very simple. In this game you either have dps or you have nothing. The odd exceptions were GFs and DCs. GF being able to buff and to tank thru a magical team power that screams 'Paladin' and the DC with its heals and buffs. Yet what did the devs do ? They gave even those two classes damage.
So no, no more damage nerfs for GWFs. Only buffs from this point on
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
i see intimidation as pve not pvp power, for pvp it feels lame and skillless
Lame and skilless you say. Well now, is it an auto hit ability? - no. Does it ignore DR? - no. Does it kill you slowly with dot procs while the one who applied it to you goes on the defensive dodging aroung and you are left with no option but to die? - no!
When we are talking bis vs bis a hit from intimidation can be as low as 3-4k on rangers and 5-6k on wizards, hardly a 1shot ability. Add the fact that folks are having 4-5 dodges with immunity frames built in and even landing intimidation becames as hard as any other ability. I've met many Int Sentinels in PVP, some with over 20k GS and it was clear as day who can play and who cant. Being effective with an Int Sentinel requires the same things as any other GWF - anticipate your opponents, know their movement patterns, read their minds and know what they gonna do next. Really, folks who for some reason dislike the build should rly ask themselves "am I being fair here?"
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited November 2014
Since destroyer tree cant be used in pvp (even with high HP), there is no reason devs shouldnt take a look and rework the tree, due to the lacking of survavily of destroyers in pvp, any rework/buff should just improve the pve performance. I think all agree with PVE changes for GWF's even the gandalfs, legolas, ezio auditores, sakuras, witchers and the shield dudes should be in favor of us cuz they wont be killed for destroyes in pvp anymore.
The CWs I play with are grateful for GWF mark and come and get it collecting mobs for them. Jokes aside, there is utility to a GWF, but the dmg got nerfed to the ground.
A maxed out GWF with 6 legendaries should not be outdpsed by 15k GS SW or 17k+ CWs. He is paingiver in most of his PuG runs, but he gets outdpsed by every CW or SW with the right build and decent gear.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited November 2014
I dont care about paingiver.. I do care however about the functionality of the class.
I PLAY every class, Im not asking for any class to have nerfs, Im asking for the GWF to be fixed! This is what I see as the major issues of this class..
A. Reduction of unstoppable was too harsh, you spend most of your time as a destroyer running around doing nothing, while almost all other dps classes are range (barring the TR, who can be in danger from reds as well).
B. You have to be way out-gearing anyone to compete, this makes this class the least friendly casual one, even the old supporting classes (typically the least played) DC and GF really are pretty easy cake now, the new DC is a massive dpser, maybe slightly off par from cw/sw but it also has some healing and some buffing going on at the same time.
C. Re-balance on damage was disastrous. It needs to be looked at.
D. Sprint.. MY sw can sprint, but my GWF rubber-bands 20% of the time back into the red.. WHAT the heck, why is this? can someone explain it to me, when I die on my GWF this is usually the culprit.
E. Unstoppable has way too much of a pause before it works, if I dont die due to rubberbanding, I die because I cant pop unstoppable! It just sits at full build up and I smash Tab over and over.. sometimes its a 1-2 second delay.
F. Wicked Strike, one of main ways of AOE as a Destroyer, seems to get WORSE and WORSE every mod, you hit a button and wait, wait wait.
G. Threatening Rush.. I KNOW I used to be able to hit this and then go into Sure Strike in pvp, now I hit it and AGAIN more waiting, so many people can respond now after I use it, its almost not worth using!
H. Encounters with to long of a cooldown for basically an atwill damage. There are so many of these its not funny. My DC can hit 3 fast Dls and a slow one for over 100k worth of damage, my GWF has nothing like this. Nothing! You hit some of these encounters for a AOE of 1-5k damage and wait ten more seconds. What the heck! If I cant repeat something right away, it should be massive damage! Even if they toned down some of the other classes, this doesnt fix the issue, the issue is that a majority of the the GWF encounters simply are very weak, slow , while having to be used near range. There is very little diversity in the GWF play.
I. To me this is simple, they overdid the damage, they overdid damage reduction and they refuse to fix the delay pauses. You fix these in combination with each other and the class is back.
and the biggest reason they wont do the above...
because the devs then would have to admit they spent all that time on this class re-balance for nothing, it was just a major mistake.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited November 2014
Even though I disagree with some things mentioned in this thread, I do agree that the class needs a few changes specially related to the stack system in the destroyer tree, very weak class features when you compare them to other classes like i.e CW's Storm Spell vs GWF's Steel Blitz or EotS vs Weapon Master (descriptions are different but both are the same in essence) Dailies should be checked or even reworked like Slam should be able to crit and the dmg increased, Avalanche is good as opening daily but means that it's being used without any kind of buff, if you use it during combat you will lose a lot of DPS and even your buffs which leaves Spinning Strike as the only AoE option but unfortunately you can be cc'ed albeit it is supposed to grant you control immunity. Battle Fury is very weak, let it apply Mark on your enemies and increase the bonuses granted to the party, devs improved Into the Fray which is a very good encounter now, they can do the same with Battle Fury.
Unknown GWF advocate, you have some good feedback in this thread.
We can also "off-tank," and tend to grab aggro fairly often. With Sprinting and Unstoppable we have some nice tools
I stopped reading here.
We cannot off-tank. An off-tank does nor die when in a trash mob AOE. An off-tank has taunts, or burst, we have no taunts and a steady low damage.
Unstoppable, you have two versions: the Senti one (works but you can never fill the bar) or non-Senti (you can fill the bar, but it is useless).
And sprinting away from the danger like a frightened sheep is not an acceptable feature for a melee fighter, DnD-wise.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
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wowowowowoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited November 2014
(sorry for the engrish)
I gave up with the class 2 days ago. I've spend too much money on that char for almost nothing, I wouldn't mind having low damage / tanking ability if I had fun, but I do not even have that. (GWF mechanics aren't really ... hard to master ... I don't want to say "boring gameplay")
I'm pretty sure the state of the GWF is where the dev/publisher want it to be: the GWF is the "newb class", the one with the big *** sword and ****, the class that will be the most played/created in any mmorpgs when you don't really know what to play.
When you have too much of a class in such games, you can't make it "OP" or even "good" if their is too TOO much of it or else your game will simply die.
You must have the trinity, the tank, the healer and the mage, those 3 classes will be good or OP 90% of the time on any games, if you don't have a class that can fill one if those slots, your game will die. It's also the case if a class starts to take a spot of another ( mostly the tank or the healer). Those 3 spots should always be appealing.
The rest are fillers, it's sad but that's how it works, when a filler class is underplayed, you buff it, when a filler class is overplayed, you nerf it, simple as that.
The tank and healer spots rarely change and when it happens, fixes are made rather "fast" (next big/medium update).
By this logic, the most played class should not stay in a top spot for a long time, I'm sure you know other games like "the 2handed <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is cool, too bad it sucks and tend to get kitted really easily".
Now the real problem isn't if a class is OP or not in a GAME, it's if you can have fun with it or not, if you don't, there's no point playing it but here there is another factor, the investment. To make your GWF on par with other classes you need to have SICK gear aka time, money or both. Some people (even me, Iwon't hide it) spent hundred of bucks in the game with 90% of the $ used to improve a specific character, if that character is a GWF it's almost (I SAID ALMOST) a waste.
Sooo.. I'm playing a CW, I'm having fun and I don't have the "nerf shadow" besides me, so I can play it without fear.
I gave up with the class 2 days ago. I've spend too much money on that char for almost nothing, I wouldn't mind having low damage / tanking ability if I had fun, but I do not even have that. (GWF mechanics aren't really ... hard to master ... I don't want to say "boring gameplay")
its easy to learn, mastering the little details is a different thing. and much harder than some other classes
I'm pretty sure the state of the GWF is where the dev/publisher want it to be: the GWF is the "newb class", the one with the big *** sword and ****, the class that will be the most played/created in any mmorpgs when you don't really know what to play.
When you have too much of a class in such games, you can't make it "OP" or even "good" if their is too TOO much of it or else your game will simply die.
same could be said about CW, both mages and warriors are the default classes, and im quite sure that there are more active CW than GWF
You must have the trinity, the tank, the healer and the mage, those 3 classes will be good or OP 90% of the time on any games, if you don't have a class that can fill one if those slots, your game will die. It's also the case if a class starts to take a spot of another ( mostly the tank or the healer). Those 3 spots should always be appealing.
The rest are fillers, it's sad but that's how it works, when a filler class is underplayed, you buff it, when a filler class is overplayed, you nerf it, simple as that.
The tank and healer spots rarely change and when it happens, fixes are made rather "fast" (next big/medium update).
complete bs, action mmorpg dont _need_ the trinity, though it can be used, and are you really saying some classes SHOULD be better than other ?
By this logic, the most played class should not stay in a top spot for a long time, I'm sure you know other games like "the 2handed <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is cool, too bad it sucks and tend to get kitted really easily".
by that logic the should have nerfed cw 4 mods ago, i think u have some trauma about warriors
Now the real problem isn't if a class is OP or not in a GAME, it's if you can have fun with it or not, if you don't, there's no point playing it but here there is another factor, the investment. To make your GWF on par with other classes you need to have SICK gear aka time, money or both. Some people (even me, Iwon't hide it) spent hundred of bucks in the game with 90% of the $ used to improve a specific character, if that character is a GWF it's almost (I SAID ALMOST) a waste.
Sooo.. I'm playing a CW, I'm having fun and I don't have the "nerf shadow" besides me, so I can play it without fear.
yea cause they never nerf CW, at least without buffing it in 3 other places, safest class to pick if you only play 1 character
Paladin Master Race
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wowowowowoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 29Arc User
complete bs, action mmorpg dont _need_ the trinity, though it can be used, and are you really saying some classes SHOULD be better than other ?
Come on, can't you see I'm talking about the general health of a game? Guess what? You can even solo some Epic dungeons!
What makes a game live? The 5% of elite players that can roflstomp contents by having great skills and gear or the "mass"?
Do you REALLY think the majority of GWFs have 21K GS and ninja reflexes? Maybe you have, good for you, really, but guess what, you're a little drop of water into the ocean of players that make the game still exists.
the main thing about action mmorpgs is not facetanking attacks, but evading it, tank is useful cause he can take a few hits and make it easier on team but is not required at any gear level if the players know what they do, and healers are needed only if you do get hit, else they can dps or buff.
evading most attacks is easy, you dont need ninja reflexes to do it, but if you cant evade most attacks with all the tells you need a helmet
trinity is required in outdated games like wow and other tab targeting games where you cant evade attacks
Paladin Master Race
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wowowowowoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited November 2014
... I'll repeat myself, you are right but the few (compared to the total number of player) people that play without the "trinity" (mostly the tank+heal duo) isn't revelant at all as it's absolutly eaten by the majority, the "mass".
More mass = more $$ = they don't care about minority.
Yeah... Ever encountered a CW who got aggro on eSoT boss, ran around him and got the whole party wiped? I have. We need tanks to prevent that. Because hey, if boss randomly switched targets we would have a rather sour battle experience.
I for one, enjoy being the kite-tank with my GWF. It's much more enjoyable and skill demanding to tank properly with GWF than it is with a GF. I mean, really. You have to sprint out of reds before they deal damage (as our sprint has no damage immunity) and you need to make sure you do not run too far as to damage your team. Moreover, you need to deal constant damage and keep healing yourself as to generate as much threat as possible. So that boss doesn't turn back and wipe your team mates. That's fun! Whereas GF just holds his shield and derps around while his team does the rest. Booooring.
Of course, it's rather impossible to generate enough threat and survive those 1-hit kills with GWF as our threat generation sucks big time as well as we don't have enough survivability (nerfed unstoppable, no dodge immunity)...
... I'll repeat myself, you are right but the few (compared to the total number of player) people that play without the "trinity" (mostly the tank+heal duo) isn't revelant at all as it's absolutly eaten by the majority, the "mass".
More mass = more $$ = they don't care about minority.
i think now most ppl play without tank/cleric, the ones who do use queue and, probably, most whales dont need them and they are the 1% that pay the bills
personally i better love challenge than tank and spank while dps sleep on their keyboards, much better when you have to be on your toes
but i think we have derailed thread enough
Paladin Master Race
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
i think now most ppl play without tank/cleric, the ones who do use queue and, probably, most whales dont need them and they are the 1% that pay the bills
personally i better love challenge than tank and spank while dps sleep on their keyboards, much better when you have to be on your toes
but i think we have derailed thread enough
Grouped into several groups of people..
Group A, the speed runners who only believe in pure dps, they wouldnt take a GWF anyways, not at this point. Its 4 CWs and a SW for the purest and fastest runs (or maybe 2 sws) These are usually the top BiS crowd, they will "allow" a non sw/cw if they have 20k plus legendaries and multi purple pets that increase dps . You will see the HIGH DPS only for elol crowd asking in zone chats.. Ive even seen "PERFECT weapon enchants only" tag a couple of times.
Group B, the Im not going to wait around for anything anyways group.. (most legit runs really are this way) are not going to spend 15 mins waiting around for perfect setup, most groups consist of 2-3 sws, cws, a odd gwf and a tr or hr. Sometimes you get a temp sw or a dc, but most DCs now are going dps, or at least a large percantage of them.
Group C, actually would make a rainbow party and willing to wait around for one, this is by far the smallest margin groups. They would want a GF/DC or temp sw if they can get one.
HEre is what some of you are missing, the game isnt harder without a GWF, the GWF is the hard part to play. The game is actually pretty easy for the rest of the classes, except maybe the TR. I can kite just as easy on my CW as I can on my GWF with 15k less hps, less power, less defense, less regen, less deflect, less AC. NONE of those stats do a EFFING thing in this game. Seriously, Im not kidding. You die from most hits you would die with classes with half of those stats.
PVE does not do a good job of different classes with these stats, and thats squarly the result of pvp. They need to figure out how to increase these defense stats and not effect pvp, but I doubt that will ever happen.
ok ... ignoring stereotypes, outdated perspectives about the live pve, etc.
dont make sense discuss the reasons behind this poor balance. or the dev responsible is a market genius or ...
our field of action is report the current (and unnecessary) state of the class, identify problems and, in vain, suggest solutions. this sphinx is not going to fix the class because we unravel your enigma.
ps: this is not a "moral Lesson". right now I dont have this game installed. i delete after see the instigator changes/sentinel nerfs.... but iam here... again... waiting for solid changes...
Both Sentinel and Destroyer are working quite well. Maybe add 10% deflect to Unstoppable will overall help both classes compete, but ultimately they are in a good spot.
It's Instigator. Instigator is completely useless. Every other class has at least 1 utility tree that's all about buff/debuff and act as a force multiplier. TRs have Scoundrel, GFs have Tactician, CW has Renegade, HR has Trapper, DC is just awesome everywhere and SW has Damnation. GWFs have nothing.
Instigator needs to be completely revamped. It's needs to focus on team/pvp utility. What if Instigator sapped stamina at a 5% rate every second during Unstoppable? What if Punishing Charge actually did something useful, like daze? What if Battle Fury was made useful, like transfer stamina/damage?
This feat tree just does not offer any utility to a GWF. Please take a look at redesigning it.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
10% Deflect = 5% Damage resistance, how is this going to help the Sentinel/Destroyer trees?
with the new dex (imo that should stay for instigator) and new pvp gear a GWF should be able to have somewhere between 70-80% deflect. What i dont like is the feeling of the class with so many skills/feats that are out of date ...
with the new dex (imo that should stay for instigator) and new pvp gear a GWF should be able to have somewhere between 70-80% deflect. What i dont like is the feeling of the class with so many skills/feats that are out of date ...
70-80% deflect?
I miss something. How do you get that high deflect? Isn't it like 35-40% with bravery and halfling and high dex, then add the new PvP set 9,5% you get to 50% deflect.
What do i miss?
Instigator needs to be completely revamped. It's needs to focus on team/pvp utility. What if Instigator sapped stamina at a 5% rate every second during Unstoppable? What if Punishing Charge actually did something useful, like daze? What if Battle Fury was made useful, like transfer stamina/damage?
This feat tree just does not offer any utility to a GWF. Please take a look at redesigning it.
Instigator right now is viable as a PvP DPS for pug PvP. I play it and i'm currently heading towards a 3/1 kill-death ratio. Just requires skills and a good build.
It can use a bit more survivability cause right now it feels more like a PvP version of a destroyer (PvP version cause the capstone is way more suited for PvP).
Pretty much you absorb a bit of damage with sprint/ nimble runner, get in range, play good to land your feated FLS, then usually enough time to land IBS and may be RS. Or IBS then you land RS later, directly. At this point your capstone is at full potential so IBS and RS crits hit like trucks and RS heals you back. If you slot a good pool of hp (50k+) and feat unstoppable recovery you can boost survivability a lot.
But you must be good to do not waste your sprint and land your hits or you die fast. Red glyphed CWs/ HRs still kill you quite fast.
with the new dex (imo that should stay for instigator) and new pvp gear a GWF should be able to have somewhere between 70-80% deflect. What i dont like is the feeling of the class with so many skills/feats that are out of date ...
Its been awhile since my days of Destroying things with IBS canceling so here's a question - did they slow the IBS cast animation? Perhaps my fingers simply forgot how to play it but it does seem quite unreliable without a cc first and I used to be pretty good with T-rush, Sprint-cancel IBS for massive, seemingly out of nowhere crits.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
a GWF should be able to have somewhere between 70-80% deflect.
80%? In your dreams. With my maxed DEX, and 1300+ Deflection stat, my deflect is around 15%.
Plus, deflect should never be a significant defensive feature of a gwf. Defense, life steal, armour class yes. Deflect? Sprint? That's NWO devs spitting at Gary Gigax' grave.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Comments
just not be another person repeating platitudes only to ensure the supremacy of his class. no one here is against tr. for me, and I already say some times, trs should be the top class in damage. enjoy your class and forget that.
Exactly!
I couldn't have said it better, and probably the second thing that irks me the most about GWF. Where's our support skills, our useful encounters? Why are the vast majority of them a waste of space? It should be the other way around. When I started my CW I felt totally overwhelmed by the choices of amazing encounters to use until I figured out my playstyle.
If you're a Destroyer with offense specs you should absolutely be a DPS class. At least capable of competing with TR and CW for that 2nd spot, but rarely getting 1st.
And GWF is no tank, not even close. Full def spec Sentinel is still horrible at A.) Maintaining mob threat, B.) Actually taking hits. When people say "Off-Tank," myself included, we are referring to the fact that GWF can sprint out of the way of heavy attacks, jump into the side of mob for combat advantage and continue attacking usually before that first hit has even landed.
We kite, we don't tank hits. End of story.
Currently I can still hold aggro on certain mobs (Golems in eLoL tend to love me) provided I rush to them first and Mark with TR. Yes I use Powerful Challenge. I'm good enough at kiting that I can negate several heavy hits against me or team members and generally annoy mobs in this fashion until they're down. That's still useful but only if there are no GFs in the group, who are many times more useful at the exact same thing and can support group to boot.
What bothers me the most is the fact that I'm placing only above GFs or Supports in DPS when I used to account for a SIGNIFICANT % of the damage dealt. In pugs I almost always got #1. With my guild I usually scored #2. Our heaviest DD could score 10-12m in eLoL. In runs with him I usually got 2nd at about 6-8m. That was without fail. Now I get 3-4m while TR is getting 6-8m.
So GWF is still crippled but everyone else gets a lightsaber? Not cool.
It should be quite clear by now I think. Someone like you with alot of game experience should know. Neverwinter is all about damage and buffing, in that order. There is no tanking thru threat unless you have the highest aoe damage on party. Thats why even Int Sentinels in Mod 4 had trouble keeping aggro away from Wizards/SWs etc. You cant propose a damage nerf to the "tank" GWF because he will be left with nothing else period. A GWF cant buff and even the greatest aoe build we had could not steal aggro from the ranged classes. If the Sentinel for example is changed the way you propose into a low damage, high survavibility tanklite he will be absolutely useless in end game PVE ( where I am ) and nothing but a nuisance in PVP easily kited or ignored by everyone.
Sorry to say this to an experienced GWF player like you but get with the program already. Its pretty obvious how Cryptic does things and its very simple. In this game you either have dps or you have nothing. The odd exceptions were GFs and DCs. GF being able to buff and to tank thru a magical team power that screams 'Paladin' and the DC with its heals and buffs. Yet what did the devs do ? They gave even those two classes damage.
So no, no more damage nerfs for GWFs. Only buffs from this point on
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Lame and skilless you say. Well now, is it an auto hit ability? - no. Does it ignore DR? - no. Does it kill you slowly with dot procs while the one who applied it to you goes on the defensive dodging aroung and you are left with no option but to die? - no!
When we are talking bis vs bis a hit from intimidation can be as low as 3-4k on rangers and 5-6k on wizards, hardly a 1shot ability. Add the fact that folks are having 4-5 dodges with immunity frames built in and even landing intimidation becames as hard as any other ability. I've met many Int Sentinels in PVP, some with over 20k GS and it was clear as day who can play and who cant. Being effective with an Int Sentinel requires the same things as any other GWF - anticipate your opponents, know their movement patterns, read their minds and know what they gonna do next. Really, folks who for some reason dislike the build should rly ask themselves "am I being fair here?"
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
A maxed out GWF with 6 legendaries should not be outdpsed by 15k GS SW or 17k+ CWs. He is paingiver in most of his PuG runs, but he gets outdpsed by every CW or SW with the right build and decent gear.
I PLAY every class, Im not asking for any class to have nerfs, Im asking for the GWF to be fixed! This is what I see as the major issues of this class..
A. Reduction of unstoppable was too harsh, you spend most of your time as a destroyer running around doing nothing, while almost all other dps classes are range (barring the TR, who can be in danger from reds as well).
B. You have to be way out-gearing anyone to compete, this makes this class the least friendly casual one, even the old supporting classes (typically the least played) DC and GF really are pretty easy cake now, the new DC is a massive dpser, maybe slightly off par from cw/sw but it also has some healing and some buffing going on at the same time.
C. Re-balance on damage was disastrous. It needs to be looked at.
D. Sprint.. MY sw can sprint, but my GWF rubber-bands 20% of the time back into the red.. WHAT the heck, why is this? can someone explain it to me, when I die on my GWF this is usually the culprit.
E. Unstoppable has way too much of a pause before it works, if I dont die due to rubberbanding, I die because I cant pop unstoppable! It just sits at full build up and I smash Tab over and over.. sometimes its a 1-2 second delay.
F. Wicked Strike, one of main ways of AOE as a Destroyer, seems to get WORSE and WORSE every mod, you hit a button and wait, wait wait.
G. Threatening Rush.. I KNOW I used to be able to hit this and then go into Sure Strike in pvp, now I hit it and AGAIN more waiting, so many people can respond now after I use it, its almost not worth using!
H. Encounters with to long of a cooldown for basically an atwill damage. There are so many of these its not funny. My DC can hit 3 fast Dls and a slow one for over 100k worth of damage, my GWF has nothing like this. Nothing! You hit some of these encounters for a AOE of 1-5k damage and wait ten more seconds. What the heck! If I cant repeat something right away, it should be massive damage! Even if they toned down some of the other classes, this doesnt fix the issue, the issue is that a majority of the the GWF encounters simply are very weak, slow , while having to be used near range. There is very little diversity in the GWF play.
I. To me this is simple, they overdid the damage, they overdid damage reduction and they refuse to fix the delay pauses. You fix these in combination with each other and the class is back.
and the biggest reason they wont do the above...
because the devs then would have to admit they spent all that time on this class re-balance for nothing, it was just a major mistake.
Unknown GWF advocate, you have some good feedback in this thread.
I stopped reading here.
We cannot off-tank. An off-tank does nor die when in a trash mob AOE. An off-tank has taunts, or burst, we have no taunts and a steady low damage.
Unstoppable, you have two versions: the Senti one (works but you can never fill the bar) or non-Senti (you can fill the bar, but it is useless).
And sprinting away from the danger like a frightened sheep is not an acceptable feature for a melee fighter, DnD-wise.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
I gave up with the class 2 days ago. I've spend too much money on that char for almost nothing, I wouldn't mind having low damage / tanking ability if I had fun, but I do not even have that. (GWF mechanics aren't really ... hard to master ... I don't want to say "boring gameplay")
I'm pretty sure the state of the GWF is where the dev/publisher want it to be: the GWF is the "newb class", the one with the big *** sword and ****, the class that will be the most played/created in any mmorpgs when you don't really know what to play.
When you have too much of a class in such games, you can't make it "OP" or even "good" if their is too TOO much of it or else your game will simply die.
You must have the trinity, the tank, the healer and the mage, those 3 classes will be good or OP 90% of the time on any games, if you don't have a class that can fill one if those slots, your game will die. It's also the case if a class starts to take a spot of another ( mostly the tank or the healer). Those 3 spots should always be appealing.
The rest are fillers, it's sad but that's how it works, when a filler class is underplayed, you buff it, when a filler class is overplayed, you nerf it, simple as that.
The tank and healer spots rarely change and when it happens, fixes are made rather "fast" (next big/medium update).
By this logic, the most played class should not stay in a top spot for a long time, I'm sure you know other games like "the 2handed <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is cool, too bad it sucks and tend to get kitted really easily".
Now the real problem isn't if a class is OP or not in a GAME, it's if you can have fun with it or not, if you don't, there's no point playing it but here there is another factor, the investment. To make your GWF on par with other classes you need to have SICK gear aka time, money or both. Some people (even me, Iwon't hide it) spent hundred of bucks in the game with 90% of the $ used to improve a specific character, if that character is a GWF it's almost (I SAID ALMOST) a waste.
Sooo.. I'm playing a CW, I'm having fun and I don't have the "nerf shadow" besides me, so I can play it without fear.
yea cause they never nerf CW, at least without buffing it in 3 other places, safest class to pick if you only play 1 character
Come on, can't you see I'm talking about the general health of a game? Guess what? You can even solo some Epic dungeons!
What makes a game live? The 5% of elite players that can roflstomp contents by having great skills and gear or the "mass"?
Do you REALLY think the majority of GWFs have 21K GS and ninja reflexes? Maybe you have, good for you, really, but guess what, you're a little drop of water into the ocean of players that make the game still exists.
evading most attacks is easy, you dont need ninja reflexes to do it, but if you cant evade most attacks with all the tells you need a helmet
trinity is required in outdated games like wow and other tab targeting games where you cant evade attacks
More mass = more $$ = they don't care about minority.
I for one, enjoy being the kite-tank with my GWF. It's much more enjoyable and skill demanding to tank properly with GWF than it is with a GF. I mean, really. You have to sprint out of reds before they deal damage (as our sprint has no damage immunity) and you need to make sure you do not run too far as to damage your team. Moreover, you need to deal constant damage and keep healing yourself as to generate as much threat as possible. So that boss doesn't turn back and wipe your team mates. That's fun! Whereas GF just holds his shield and derps around while his team does the rest. Booooring.
Of course, it's rather impossible to generate enough threat and survive those 1-hit kills with GWF as our threat generation sucks big time as well as we don't have enough survivability (nerfed unstoppable, no dodge immunity)...
i think now most ppl play without tank/cleric, the ones who do use queue and, probably, most whales dont need them and they are the 1% that pay the bills
personally i better love challenge than tank and spank while dps sleep on their keyboards, much better when you have to be on your toes
but i think we have derailed thread enough
Grouped into several groups of people..
Group A, the speed runners who only believe in pure dps, they wouldnt take a GWF anyways, not at this point. Its 4 CWs and a SW for the purest and fastest runs (or maybe 2 sws) These are usually the top BiS crowd, they will "allow" a non sw/cw if they have 20k plus legendaries and multi purple pets that increase dps . You will see the HIGH DPS only for elol crowd asking in zone chats.. Ive even seen "PERFECT weapon enchants only" tag a couple of times.
Group B, the Im not going to wait around for anything anyways group.. (most legit runs really are this way) are not going to spend 15 mins waiting around for perfect setup, most groups consist of 2-3 sws, cws, a odd gwf and a tr or hr. Sometimes you get a temp sw or a dc, but most DCs now are going dps, or at least a large percantage of them.
Group C, actually would make a rainbow party and willing to wait around for one, this is by far the smallest margin groups. They would want a GF/DC or temp sw if they can get one.
HEre is what some of you are missing, the game isnt harder without a GWF, the GWF is the hard part to play. The game is actually pretty easy for the rest of the classes, except maybe the TR. I can kite just as easy on my CW as I can on my GWF with 15k less hps, less power, less defense, less regen, less deflect, less AC. NONE of those stats do a EFFING thing in this game. Seriously, Im not kidding. You die from most hits you would die with classes with half of those stats.
PVE does not do a good job of different classes with these stats, and thats squarly the result of pvp. They need to figure out how to increase these defense stats and not effect pvp, but I doubt that will ever happen.
dont make sense discuss the reasons behind this poor balance. or the dev responsible is a market genius or ...
our field of action is report the current (and unnecessary) state of the class, identify problems and, in vain, suggest solutions. this sphinx is not going to fix the class because we unravel your enigma.
ps: this is not a "moral Lesson". right now I dont have this game installed. i delete after see the instigator changes/sentinel nerfs.... but iam here... again... waiting for solid changes...
Both Sentinel and Destroyer are working quite well. Maybe add 10% deflect to Unstoppable will overall help both classes compete, but ultimately they are in a good spot.
It's Instigator. Instigator is completely useless. Every other class has at least 1 utility tree that's all about buff/debuff and act as a force multiplier. TRs have Scoundrel, GFs have Tactician, CW has Renegade, HR has Trapper, DC is just awesome everywhere and SW has Damnation. GWFs have nothing.
Instigator needs to be completely revamped. It's needs to focus on team/pvp utility. What if Instigator sapped stamina at a 5% rate every second during Unstoppable? What if Punishing Charge actually did something useful, like daze? What if Battle Fury was made useful, like transfer stamina/damage?
This feat tree just does not offer any utility to a GWF. Please take a look at redesigning it.
10% Deflect = 5% Damage resistance, how is this going to help the Sentinel/Destroyer trees?
SW Damnation tree doesn't buff/debuff and Battle Fury already buff allies damage/action point gain to allies.
The GWF requires much more than a simple revision.
with the new dex (imo that should stay for instigator) and new pvp gear a GWF should be able to have somewhere between 70-80% deflect. What i dont like is the feeling of the class with so many skills/feats that are out of date ...
70-80% deflect?
I miss something. How do you get that high deflect? Isn't it like 35-40% with bravery and halfling and high dex, then add the new PvP set 9,5% you get to 50% deflect.
What do i miss?
Instigator right now is viable as a PvP DPS for pug PvP. I play it and i'm currently heading towards a 3/1 kill-death ratio. Just requires skills and a good build.
It can use a bit more survivability cause right now it feels more like a PvP version of a destroyer (PvP version cause the capstone is way more suited for PvP).
Pretty much you absorb a bit of damage with sprint/ nimble runner, get in range, play good to land your feated FLS, then usually enough time to land IBS and may be RS. Or IBS then you land RS later, directly. At this point your capstone is at full potential so IBS and RS crits hit like trucks and RS heals you back. If you slot a good pool of hp (50k+) and feat unstoppable recovery you can boost survivability a lot.
But you must be good to do not waste your sprint and land your hits or you die fast. Red glyphed CWs/ HRs still kill you quite fast.
17-20% deflect stat
16-20% dex
10% sprint/weapon master
8% bravery
5% feat
3% class
You're forgetting that the deflect bonus from dex is bugged and it won't stay.
was what i said
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
80%? In your dreams. With my maxed DEX, and 1300+ Deflection stat, my deflect is around 15%.
Plus, deflect should never be a significant defensive feature of a gwf. Defense, life steal, armour class yes. Deflect? Sprint? That's NWO devs spitting at Gary Gigax' grave.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs