4 dodges for TR

mehguy138

Supposed to be 3? Isn't it? Or is it some crazy stamina regen that allows you to roll 4 times in a row? I can't do that on CW or DC.

Is this a bug or is it intended? I personally find it OP, because 4 full time immunity dodges with high distance allow TR to be super-safe PvP character, because unless CW, they have stealth, ITC and buffed deflect chance to survive. Combined with crazy damage and overbuffed utility (dazing strike), TR's current kit turns their opponents into helpless victims.

Before, when you saw TR out of stealth, he was ITC-immune most of the time, but you had a chance to catch him in between dodges if he messes up his rotation. Now it's impossible to time your abilities because dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge...

Don't get me wrong, I play TR myself (Saboteur), but there's no more frustrating thing then fight another TR, I can't hit a thing, neither do they.

Limit TR dodges to 3?

rayrdan

mehguy138 wrote: »

Supposed to be 3? Isn't it? Or is it some crazy stamina regen that allows you to roll 4 times in a row? I can't do that on CW or DC.

Is this a bug or is it intended? I personally find it OP, because 4 full time immunity dodges with high distance allow TR to be super-safe PvP character, because unless CW, they have stealth, ITC and buffed deflect chance to survive. Combined with crazy damage and overbuffed utility (dazing strike), TR's current kit turns their opponents into helpless victims.

Before, when you saw TR out of stealth, he was ITC-immune most of the time, but you had a chance to catch him in between dodges if he messes up his rotation. Now it's impossible to time your abilities because dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge...

Don't get me wrong, I play TR myself (Saboteur), but there's no more frustrating thing then fight another TR, I can't hit a thing, neither do they.

Limit TR dodges to 3?

it s stamina regen, every class now has 3 dodges every class can now dodge 4 times effectively
i could dodge 3 times already in mod 4
this happens because str give us bonus damage and stamina

hefisdo

Actually the TR and DC stamina consumption was reduced to 30.

Even though I'm playing as a DC now I honestly think it should be increased to 35 just like the CW dodge.

4 is just too much, we'll do fine with 3.

demonkyuubi

eh? we have enough stamina regen to not be bothered by 35 stamina cost for dodges. i still have extra after a 4th dodge but it is incredibly unlikely that i am gonna spam my dodges like that. of course i have 6% from str + 10% from feat + 3% from stat, but a rogue who forgoes fey thistle can get another 10%.

if you want to catch a rogue, then use a fast control power or just send a gwf after them (they are good at it >.>).

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rayrdan

be sure they will touch dazes 100%

demonkyuubi

rayrdan wrote: »

be sure they will touch dazes 100%

i already saw 1 post complaining about our dazes and i am sure more is to come

nem3ziss

well, actually i can do 6 before my stealth will melt without attacking. All boons for more stamina, raven, 24str, 10% faster stamina regen from feats and prolonged stealth thx to 10% more stealth every dodge. 20% more stealth from feats and profound. Yes thx to this i can dodge 6 times before my stealth bar will run out. Is it OP? I think its the same as CW getting more stamina when attacked, same as HR who can dodge 5-6 times in a row, and thx to cooldown between dodges (yes, only TR got this funny trait) i cant spam dodges can we fix that?

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mehguy138

macjae wrote: »

CWs and DCs get the same type of delay between dodges.

As to your comparisons, the CW feat requires taking damage (which relies on an opponent using dot enchants against them), HR dodges have shorter immunity frames than the others, and none of the other classes that use dodge get the additional layers of defense that a TR get from stealth and ITC (or VP).

^This is right there. Too bad people are too selfish to admit that the class they play is overbuffed.

demonkyuubi

macjae wrote: »

CWs and DCs get the same type of delay between dodges.

As to your comparisons, the CW feat requires taking damage (which relies on an opponent using dot enchants against them), HR dodges have shorter immunity frames than the others, and none of the other classes that use dodge get the additional layers of defense that a TR get from stealth and ITC (or VP).

mehguy138 wrote: »

^This is right there. Too bad people are too selfish to admit that the class they play is overbuffed.

you are forgetting that ranged classes are not in the front-lines enough to warrant such defensive mechanics in pve or pvp.

try bringing your wizard/cleric into the node next to a gwf in unstoppable and a guardian in block mode. tell me how many people switch to attack you within 5 seconds. it's how a rogue feels when visible which is why we actually need our deflect and itc.

like really, so many people get hung up on 1 vs 1 but most of my matches are me being focused by 2-5 people for being a combat rogue.

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demonkyuubi

macjae wrote: »

There is no "front line" playing against opponents who can sprint up to you without being cc-ed and hardly taking any damage, or against opponents who are invisible, or against opponents who can daze your marauder-rush you. Yes, range is an advantage, but don't exaggerate the impact of that. There's no invisible wall preventing someone from chasing off node (if they hold the node).

they can but capturing the node is a priority and most ranged dps do not fight on the node or at least not in pugs.

macjae wrote: »

Uh, yes, CWs and DCs are required to fight on node all the time too. There are three nodes and five players per team.

probably a premade-only thing. it's fine to think that but it's completely wrong to base everything on it. we rogues were nerfed because everyone kept throwing out premade-level rogue damage as the normal and thus it became the norm. hence, do not do it.

macjae wrote: »

Seriously, that sounds terrible on several levels. 1) you're a "combat TR" (implying not taking full advantage of stealth mechanics); 2) being focused by that many implies a pug game, which says nothing; 3) being focused by that many implies you're either at mid (bad), or at their node (good, you might die, but it will win the game); 4) there's a few classes that will get focused before a TR because they are easier to kill, bring more team synergy and tend to be visible.

that's the real problem right here. people only consider perma-rogues or premade people as the only ones worth considering. majority of pvp is pugs, not premades.

we don't have to be back-cappers to help our team win. i have forced a win against teams with a back-capping rogue simply because i can hold mid better than their team could and the only thing that could stop me was their rogue using whirlwind of blades to penetrate my defenses but that leaves their node open for a freebie so it pushes them into a corner. that's what happens when you become too dependent on having a rogue back-cap for you. and now that none of our dailies can penetrate defenses, i have almost complete immunity to my own class.

ps: i could survive being focused by 2-5 people for 10-20 seconds even b4 module 5. annoying to do but possible and grants my team time to do something.

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demonkyuubi

macjae wrote: »

Because balance issues are only relevant when things are taken to the point of reasonably optimal usage of all involved characteristics. If you refrain from using that, fine, that's your choice, but then you can't argue that it's fine because you choose not to play that way. Others can and will.

maybe but the norm for rogue damage used to be about the amount needed to kill the average squishy. but due to premades multiplying damage left and right, that went far and beyond what a squishy could handle. squishies made a bunch of threads asking for nerfs and their wish was granted. most rogues became unable to deal enough damage to a squishy to kill them and couldn't even keep up with the amount of dodges they had. pretty much forced perma-stealth onto everyone

^this is the main reason many rogues don't like wizards. it's fine to keep your attitude as we all know rogues are not favored by devs.

macjae wrote: »

And yes, the majority of players are pugs, and the majority of those lack the knowledge base and experience to make useful assessments of what is and isn't too good, because they don't understand all the class mechanics (even their own), so their opinions can be freely dismissed in terms of considering balance. (But their statements have other forms of value related more broadly to how the game is experienced.)

depends. skilled players exist in pugs as well as people with overpowered builds like hunters who can solo an entire team. the ungeared and unskilled also exist in large quantities, but matchmaking is not perfect.

wyndrarch

nem3ziss wrote: »

well, actually i can do 6 before my stealth will melt without attacking. All boons for more stamina, raven, 24str, 10% faster stamina regen from feats and prolonged stealth thx to 10% more stealth every dodge. 20% more stealth from feats and profound. Yes thx to this i can dodge 6 times before my stealth bar will run out. Is it OP? I think its the same as CW getting more stamina when attacked, same as HR who can dodge 5-6 times in a row, and thx to cooldown between dodges (yes, only TR got this funny trait) i cant spam dodges can we fix that?

macjae wrote: »

CWs and DCs get the same type of delay between dodges.

As to your comparisons, the CW feat requires taking damage (which relies on an opponent using dot enchants against them), HR dodges have shorter immunity frames than the others, and none of the other classes that use dodge get the additional layers of defense that a TR get from stealth and ITC (or VP).

1. HR's also get a delay between dodges, although it is much shorter (about 0.5 secs). EDIT: Make that 0.2 or 0.3.
2. We're neglecting to mention everything that nem3ziss is missing by focusing so hard on dodging and stealth accumulation.

• 24 STR (so human, half-orc or DB), assuming it isn't from a belt, requires a total devotion to STR. 18 Start, 6 points directly into it. STR is a secondary for rogues, meaning that 18 STR results in all-round lower stats.
• 10% more stamina from feats requires a 5 point investment, which could be put into combat advantage AP gain, HP increases, Crit chance (less necessary now though).
• Bonus stealth from dodges requires another 5 point feat investment, giving up on an EP damage bonus.
• Increased Stealth time requires another 5 point feat investment, giving up on a pure all around damage bonus, and bonus damage on at-wills vs unaware opponents. Even for a human, 15 points is a significant investment.
• Boons are the same boons available to everyone, so it should be obvious what he's missing out on (one of those is the final Sharandar Boon, so I think we can agree how annoying/$ it is to obtain).
• **Hidden Cost** nem3ziss is forced to use Gloaming Cut, easily the worst of the 4 at-wills available to TR's.

nem3ziss can dodge so much because he/she can do so little else (no offense).

Everything else is from items, which is neither here nor there.

twilightwatchman

macjae wrote: »

Because balance issues are only relevant when things are taken to the point of reasonably optimal usage of all involved characteristics.

No balance issue is relevant when it only affects 2% of the player base.

HTH.

braceguilder

mehguy138 wrote: »

^This is right there. Too bad people are too selfish to admit that the class they play is overbuffed.

overbuffed? might be from your personal point of view, since you can go perma stealth with your saboteur even after stealth nerf... it's not the case for scoundrel and executioner where dodges are necessary

I hate when people don't even get the minimum clue about how things really work overall

reiwulf

There is no "front line" playing against opponents who can sprint up to you without being cc-ed and hardly taking any damage, or against opponents who are invisible, or against opponents who can daze your marauder-rush you. Yes, range is an advantage, but don't exaggerate the impact of that. There's no invisible wall preventing someone from chasing off node (if they hold the node).

You seem to be forgetting this game isn't only about PVP, and in PVE there IS such a thing as being on the front line of in the back row, and it's VERY different. So Rogues DO need their dodges in there, and CWs are mjsh safer attacking from behind.

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demonkyuubi

macjae wrote: »

On that note, don't forget that nearly all the area damage powers a CW has requires him to be basically in the middle of the fight, which again invalidates the concept of a "front line"; everyone is there. Of course, those abilities also double up as defensive measures in PvE since they have effective control against most monsters, which makes the CW's need for other defensive measures much less.

In any case, I haven't seen enough of the new TRs to judge yet, I was simply pointing out some fallacies about how classes play in PvP not being that fundamentally different in terms of their defensive needs.

i do have a wizard and that's kinda not telling the full truth. you can simply stand there with aggro and life-steal tank a lot of it as long as you keep stuff controlled. wizards also don't really have to stand still and only have to stop moving while throwing an encounter spell.

and the highly-geared wizards just melt everything without effort.

bvira

35% should solve the problem. But I still think even 50% TR would do just fine with all the broken **** they have.

imm0rtalboy

Wtff is wrong with these people why u hate tr so much dc have shield and can save your fvcking *** leave us alone

reiwulf

no, 50% wasn't enough, we were ALWAYS out of stamina in pve.
TR is a agile class, it makes no sense that GWFs can hit faster than we do, can run faster than we do that HRs get much more dodges that we do, it's exactly why TR needed a rework.

demonkyuubi

imm0rtalboy wrote: »

Wtff is wrong with these people why u hate tr so much dc have shield and can save your fvcking *** leave us alone

i'm 85% sure we might get nerfed back into the ground at some point. not 100% since we finally received a buff......

reiwulf wrote: »

no, 50% wasn't enough, we were ALWAYS out of stamina in pve.
TR is a agile class, it makes no sense that GWFs can hit faster than we do, can run faster than we do that HRs get much more dodges that we do, it's exactly why TR needed a rework.

true. part of the reason why we are also dependent on recovery for shorter itc cooldowns. deflect only does so much.

wimpazoid

TRs can never catch a break. What's the point in arguing? PVP despises TRs vehemently, while PVE players drop TRs after hitting 60 in favor of 'better' classes. It's only depressing to long time TRs when the continuous TR balancing views comes mainly from the stand point of other classes.

pilipino93

Well it's almost the same as when GFs got reworked. After a few buffs everone goes crazy on the forum. Give it time, the hype will die down ;D

pando83

demonkyuubi wrote: »

eh? we have enough stamina regen to not be bothered by 35 stamina cost for dodges. i still have extra after a 4th dodge but it is incredibly unlikely that i am gonna spam my dodges like that. of course i have 6% from str + 10% from feat + 3% from stat, but a rogue who forgoes fey thistle can get another 10%.

if you want to catch a rogue, then use a fast control power or just send a gwf after them (they are good at it >.>).

Wrong.
FLS still bugged, TRs get free fast.
TR movement speed can't be kept up unless you're perma runner now, which would make you hit think air cause again they're too fast for TD.
Good TRs can evade GWFs too and go on-off point.
Before module 5 you could balance it cause they could not kill you.

Now they can go on-off point, stay in stealth safely, use the increased dodges and increased dodge lenght+ high movement speed to create distance in no time, daze the opponent a lot and go immune.

When he's not immune he's in stealth. When he's not in stealth and immune you're dazed. Can dodge absurd lenghts and have base movement faster than any other class.
Way too many tools to avoid damage and in fact TRs are actually the most survivable class, more than before. Plus now they can hit hard.

pando83

wimpazoid wrote: »

TRs can never catch a break. What's the point in arguing? PVP despises TRs vehemently, while PVE players drop TRs after hitting 60 in favor of 'better' classes. It's only depressing to long time TRs when the continuous TR balancing views comes mainly from the stand point of other classes.

TRs got their chance to help balance but when i go on preview all i see is TRs laughing their asses off for a new OP build. Same now in domination.
They are OP right now just as much as CWs were OP at the beginning of module 4.
Devs love to bless one class with godly powers at the beginning of every module.

demonkyuubi

pando83 wrote: »

Wrong.
FLS still bugged, TRs get free fast.
TR movement speed can't be kept up unless you're perma runner now, which would make you hit think air cause again they're too fast for TD.
Good TRs can evade GWFs too and go on-off point.
Before module 5 you could balance it cause they could not kill you.

Now they can go on-off point, stay in stealth safely, use the increased dodges and increased dodge lenght+ high movement speed to create distance in no time, daze the opponent a lot and go immune.

When he's not immune he's in stealth. When he's not in stealth and immune you're dazed. Can dodge absurd lenghts and have base movement faster than any other class.
Way too many tools to avoid damage and in fact TRs are actually the most survivable class, more than before. Plus now they can hit hard.

don't you gwf's have a vacuum sword skill? the range on that thing seems to reach from 1 side of the node to another. and you gwf's should be in unstoppable almost all the time. fought several that kept entering it after every attack i threw at them.