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  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    Many others are doing this right now, and the backlog wont decrease without action from the devs.

    You mean when they start catching exploits and banning these exploiters who were able to make hundreds of millions of ad within an hour?

    Yeah....I could see that helping
  • sugarliessugarlies Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 99
    edited August 2014
    He's right, though. This is exactly why the backlog is not (and will not be) getting smaller. Because people can sell things on the AH above the zen-ad ratio. Meaning they can create even bigger zen orders with the profit and so on.
  • adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    IMO the only option is to make all ZEN items BoA.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    IMO the only option is to make all ZEN items BoA.
    I agree with y.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • galaxy1045galaxy1045 Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Works. Just takes some time.

    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 25 for 500 each.
    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 10 for 500 each.
    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 174 for 500 each.
    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 311 for 500 each.
    28 Jul 2014 14:24 338 Big Tonker transferred 260000 from the Personal Balance to the Exchange Balance
    28 Jul 2014 14:24 338 Big Tonker offered to buy 520 for 500 each.

    backlog on 28th was approx 8 millions.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    galaxy1045 wrote: »
    Works. Just takes some time.

    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 25 for 500 each.
    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 10 for 500 each.
    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 174 for 500 each.
    6 Aug 2014 06:48 338 Purchased 311 for 500 each.
    28 Jul 2014 14:24 338 Big Tonker transferred 260000 from the Personal Balance to the Exchange Balance
    28 Jul 2014 14:24 338 Big Tonker offered to buy 520 for 500 each.

    backlog on 28th was approx 8 millions.

    So close enough to a day per million backlog then to get your ZEN.

    What should be really worrying is that the backlog is growing by over 1/2 a million a day and is closing in on a million, so the time required to get ZEN will start to grow exponentially. So if it take 8 days to get now, by the time you get the ZEN, it will take 16 days and so on......
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    mconosrep wrote: »
    So close enough to a day per million backlog then to get your ZEN.
    Interesting. This means that roughly 1 million AD is being converted into ZEN every day, which equates to around 2,000 ZEN per day. That gives some definition to the low level of activity on the Zax.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
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  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Interesting. This means that roughly 1 million AD is being converted into ZEN every day, which equates to around 2,000 ZEN per day. That gives some definition to the low level of activity on the Zax.

    EDIT: What I wrote initially was incorrect.

    Just as an aside it is 1 million ZEN being converted each day so around 500 million AD ...
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    mconosrep wrote: »
    That was my first thought too but then I realised it wasn't correct.

    All the backlog tells us is the amount of excess AD being offered at 500 ZEN over the amount of ZEN being put up. It could (for sake of an example) be 1 ZEN a day being sold at 500 ZEN or 1 000 000 ZEN a day being sold at 500AD/ZEN - all we can tell is the amount of excess.
    Good point. And you would also have an effect from people pulling down their orders through impatience. But if you join the backlog at 12 million and 12 days later your order is filled then 12 million AD was removed from the queue somehow in that time.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Good point. And you would also have an effect from people pulling down their orders through impatience. But if you join the backlog at 12 million and 12 days later your order is filled then 12 million AD was removed from the queue somehow in that time.

    Yes, that is indeed correct.

    The growth of the backlog only tells us about the excess of ZEN requested over ZEN offered. However, the rate at which you get an order filled gives an approximate idea of how much ZEN is being offered.

    Comparing the two we can very roughly estimate that AD generation was (is?) around 50% more than AD sinks.
  • baylen76baylen76 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    IMO the only option is to make all ZEN items BoA.

    1) From there, it's only one step (removal of the ZAX) to permanently cut Zen item access for F2Pers. Another major MMORPG title did that in 2010, so I wouldn't be too quick to rule that out for eternity. Said game's then-publisher's stock prospered for years afterwards, btw, until it was bought up by a multi-game publisher and taken off the stock market. The cow mooed loudly, but it gave more milk.

    2) Having bound items makes sense in subscription-based games as there, you want to make sure players grind stuff themselves slowly over time and can't shortcut. With Neverwinter's different monetization model, binding of items is actually counterproductive, as:

    3) Making Zen items BoA limits their reach (people can no longer pass zen valuables to their significant others etc), which means less total sales and thus, less profit for Cryptic/PWE.

    Selective binding just hampers the game, comes with follow-up problems (where to stop?) and just leads to either more circumventing or simply, less usage of the system = less players = less profit.


    Instead, the Zen cap of 500 AD per should be either gotten rid of, or, it should be raised to 1.000+. Those asking for bound Zen items while the exchange rate is obviously too low @500 are just asking for other players to subsidize their planned Zen purchases. No offense, but that's effectively lobbying for hard-coded mooching. It's not in Cryptics, PWE's or any paying customer's interest.
  • kaiserschmarrnkaiserschmarrn Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 390
    edited August 2014
    Neverwinter is becoming more and more an example how gold sellers and exploiters can ruin a game for everyone. And it will be a textbook lesson for future mmo companies how not to handle these problems.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    baylen76 wrote: »
    1) From there, it's only one step (removal of the ZAX) to permanently cut Zen item access for F2Pers. Another major MMORPG title did that in 2010, so I wouldn't be too quick to rule that out for eternity. Said game's then-publisher's stock prospered for years afterwards, btw, until it was bought up by a multi-game publisher and taken off the stock market. The cow mooed loudly, but it gave more milk.

    2) Having bound items makes sense in subscription-based games as there, you want to make sure players grind stuff themselves slowly over time and can't shortcut. With Neverwinter's different monetization model, binding of items is actually counterproductive, as:

    3) Making Zen items BoA limits their reach (people can no longer pass zen valuables to their significant others etc), which means less total sales and thus, less profit for Cryptic/PWE.

    Selective binding just hampers the game, comes with follow-up problems (where to stop?) and just leads to either more circumventing or simply, less usage of the system = less players = less profit.


    Instead, the Zen cap of 500 AD per should be either gotten rid of, or, it should be raised to 1.000+. Those asking for bound Zen items while the exchange rate is obviously too low @500 are just asking for other players to subsidize their planned Zen purchases. No offense, but that's effectively lobbying for hard-coded mooching. It's not in Cryptics, PWE's or any paying customer's interest.

    You dont know what y say.
    1000zen/ad = 1 mill CWard and after this ppl with zen can even demand more for it (currently now 800k 1 CWard) x2 1,6 mill per CWard.
    And the cap raise will not slove any problem chilibillons of cheated AD flooded dragon server bots and exploiters (and Trace) have zero problem to buy up all zen 1000/1 and the zax blacklog will only decrase to the half amount so now we have near 13kk we will have 6...kk. 2000/1 zax blacklog will be 3kk demand coal prize 6,4 KK this is stupid .

    No FP will come to this game ever .Zen seller dont want to sell they zen to another zen seller problem
    another zen seller dont want to buy from other zenseller this will lead only to the end of the game.

    The only solution is to make Zen store BOA.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The only solution is to make Zen store BOA.

    I hate the idea but I am starting to think this is the only realistic option.At the moment people are just profiteering off the ZAX and that is not what it was ever intended for.
    YourSecretsAreOurSecrets.gif
  • geeq5geeq5 Member Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    I hate the idea but I am starting to think this is the only realistic option.At the moment people are just profiteering off the ZAX and that is not what it was ever intended for.

    I say we blame the Devs.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    I hate the idea but I am starting to think this is the only realistic option.At the moment people are just profiteering off the ZAX and that is not what it was ever intended for.
    Right the game is for playing a GAME FOR FUN !
    Not for AD speculators like Trace and bot exploiters and money greedy ppl .
    We shoud have fun but as a legit player i dont think this is fun ppl ask for nerf all time nerf this and that.
    NW loose the fun for me in the mean time and exploiters got no punishment and they can even make real money from this lol.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • ulvielulviel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    IMO the only option is to make all ZEN items BoA.

    Why people keep repeating this stupid idea? Seriously, how is that suppose to help? Rather than putting Zen into Zax instead of AH people won't be selling it at all.
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ulviel wrote: »
    Why people keep repeating this stupid idea? Seriously, how is that suppose to help? Rather than putting Zen into Zax instead of AH people won't be selling it at all.

    Why would anybody exchange zen in the current situation where you buy a coal ward for 500k and filp it within 30 minutes for what? 700-800k?
    YourSecretsAreOurSecrets.gif
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ulviel wrote: »
    Why people keep repeating this stupid idea? Seriously, how is that suppose to help? Rather than putting Zen into Zax instead of AH people won't be selling it at all.

    Cuz they will sell zen instead. And ppl with zen sell they zen instead use it to make more profit from it .
    And ppl will buy zen but exploiter and AD hungry ppl(like Trace) cannot resell zenstore items to make more profit.
    So if somone need a companion he buy it but not because he want to make profit because he need it .
    If somone want to buy C.Ward they but it because he need it . Not because he want to resell for profit.

    Also i dont have any fear zen became worthless cuz we all know with each mod something is nerfed to the ground ppl need new companions new mounts (already boa) ppl need new enchants .
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • ulvielulviel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    baylen76 wrote: »
    1) From there, it's only one step (removal of the ZAX) to permanently cut Zen item access for F2Pers. Another major MMORPG title did that in 2010, so I wouldn't be too quick to rule that out for eternity. Said game's then-publisher's stock prospered for years afterwards, btw, until it was bought up by a multi-game publisher and taken off the stock market. The cow mooed loudly, but it gave more milk.

    2) Having bound items makes sense in subscription-based games as there, you want to make sure players grind stuff themselves slowly over time and can't shortcut. With Neverwinter's different monetization model, binding of items is actually counterproductive, as:

    3) Making Zen items BoA limits their reach (people can no longer pass zen valuables to their significant others etc), which means less total sales and thus, less profit for Cryptic/PWE.

    Selective binding just hampers the game, comes with follow-up problems (where to stop?) and just leads to either more circumventing or simply, less usage of the system = less players = less profit.


    Instead, the Zen cap of 500 AD per should be either gotten rid of, or, it should be raised to 1.000+. Those asking for bound Zen items while the exchange rate is obviously too low @500 are just asking for other players to subsidize their planned Zen purchases. No offense, but that's effectively lobbying for hard-coded mooching. It's not in Cryptics, PWE's or any paying customer's interest.

    Points 1, 2 and 3 all correct. But why do you think raising the cap will help? That would only make Zen goods even harder to obtain for free players. Cryptic has a very good reason not to do so.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ulviel wrote: »
    Points 1, 2 and 3 all correct. But why do you think raising the cap will help? That would only make Zen goods even harder to obtain for free players. Cryptic has a very good reason not to do so.

    Point 3 is wrong.
    Cuz zen seller will profit from zen but not from zen store items.The zen buyes will not buy lower amount of zen, but the economy will be more stable cuz any one will need zen but ppl will not buy they zen to make profit.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • edited August 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • ulvielulviel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    iambecks1 wrote: »
    Why would anybody exchange zen in the current situation where you buy a coal ward for 500k and filp it within 30 minutes for what? 700-800k?

    Think of the people buying it. So currently they can buy it for "too much" AD or not at all. If you bind those thigs people won't be able to buy it at all because selling won't be profitable.

    The root of the problem is not the backlog itself (although it allows the "vicious cycle" to be created) but the low value of AD. The current AH prices, which are too high for an average player, reflect the true AD value, while Zax doesn't.
    And ofc I am against raising the cap since it would increase the AD/Zen ratio, but the AH prices would not drop.

    If anything, instead of removing Zen trade via AH I would remove Zax (which I do not find a good idea, mind you. Just... better than making everything BoA) and made things like char slots and respecs tradeable. That way we would at least had more AD flushed away with the AH cut.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    kalindra wrote: »
    Well, and that is simple: just Play the game and don't care for AH and ZS.
    Get a Mount, a companion, bags or some fashon by Zen - the devs worked for their money after all, but don't step into the GS-treadmill, don't take part in the leaderboard-rat race.

    Thus your problems are only bugs and ever shifting classes, powers, feats, equipment and the broken RNG; ...bad enough, but at least you can ignore the economy, goldsellers, ad-spammers, etc.

    Yep i done this way but i feel my self as a legit player 200th_steam_locomotive_built_by_Clyde_TF_1164_from_The_Powerhouse_Museum.jpg

    Exploiters AD hungry (trace players) bots in the mean time .images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6I7u_dxrHjnaoPIuKeh_ER265x27n94zdMmBRFg87h3rNvTul
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • baylen76baylen76 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014

    You dont know what y say.
    1000zen/ad = 1 mill CWard and after this ppl with zen can even demand more for it (currently now 800k 1 CWard) x2 1,6 mill per CWard.

    Well you've just confirmed what I said: If we take your example, the real AD/Zen rate would be 800-ish. It's obviously not OK if those who sell Zen over the exchange only get 500, as this creates 'earning middlemen' or mooches. Thus it's the AD/Zen cap *creating* a problem where people accumulate AD which should've gone to those originally buying the Zen with hard dollars.

    What we agree on is that an "AD flooded Dragon Server" is bad, but addressing that is done via AD sinks, not limiting item reach. Imo, housing would be great. No direct game impact yet highly popular if you make it customizable (furniture, chests). Additionally, it's comparably low on artist resources and scales well. Do a simple wooden hut at first to drain AD, wait a bit, and get better stone buildings out. Gardens. Stuff.

    In short, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The last thing you want is bound Zen items.
  • adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ulviel wrote: »
    Why people keep repeating this stupid idea? Seriously, how is that suppose to help? Rather than putting Zen into Zax instead of AH people won't be selling it at all.

    You have not understand the problem. ZEN is NOT been put into the ZAX, AD is put into the ZAX to obtain ZEN. Currently you can simply buy ZEN items and sell them on the AH, and then put that AD in the ZAX to obtain (more) ZEN. All you have to do is to wait until your order passes through the backlog.

    Therefore the only option to prevent this spiral is making every ZEN item BoA.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    Strange... If I would have that amount of ZEN, I'd buy coals in the ZEN shop and make AD by selling them on the AH, then buy ZEN with this AD back again, i.e. making profit out of nothing, only using the backlog waiting time. Apparently you are rich but dont understand the problem with the backlog.

    Many others are doing this right now, and the backlog wont decrease without action from the devs.

    My point is that buying AD does't *interest me* otherwise I'd buy AD through ZAX (I'm not interested in ripping-off other players) - but yes I'm well aware of this angle of approach. My entire point is that AD have lost far too much value to be of interest to me. Zen is far more valuable to me at this time. I don't know how many others I speak for but I'm sure it's a lot.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    baylen76 wrote: »
    Well you've just confirmed what I said: If we take your example, the real AD/Zen rate would be 800-ish. It's obviously not OK if those who sell Zen over the exchange only get 500, as this creates 'earning middlemen' or mooches. Thus it's the AD/Zen cap *creating* a problem where people accumulate AD which should've gone to those originally buying the Zen with hard dollars.

    What we agree on is that an "AD flooded Dragon Server" is bad, but addressing that is done via AD sinks, not limiting item reach. Imo, housing would be great. No direct game impact yet highly popular if you make it customizable (furniture, chests). Additionally, it's comparably low on artist resources and scales well. Do a simple wooden hut at first to drain AD, wait a bit, and get better stone buildings out. Gardens. Stuff.

    In short, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The last thing you want is bound Zen items.

    You are agan wrong .

    AD hungry generation and bots exploiter dont care about housing those exploiter are all full pvp guilds "rumors" and true rumors.
    They only want 1 thing more and more sell AD for hard earned euros or dollars .Or they pump up they char to maximum buying broken stuffs to gain advantage ower y .
    Increasing the cap to even 1000/1 2000/1 4000/1 ad only will lead to 6,4mill CW . This will lead to the end of the game why if noone buy your zen up you wil be playing in a empty wasteland like DDO.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    My point is that buying AD does;t *interest me* otherwise I'd buy AD through ZAX (I'm not interested in ripping-off other players) - but yes I'm well aware of this angle of approach. My entire point is that AD have lost far too much value to be of interest to me. Zen is far more valuable to me at this time. I don;t know how many others I speak for but I'm sure it's a lot.

    Is it really so complicated to understand? You dont buy AD with ZEN on the ZAX. As I just posted to that other guy, you buy for example coals with ZEN and sell them on the AH to make AD, then you put that AD back on the ZAX... Summary for you: You get more and more ZEN with this method.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
  • bajornorbertbajornorbert Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ulviel wrote: »
    ...If anything, instead of removing Zen trade via AH I would remove Zax (which I do not find a good idea, mind you. Just... better than making everything BoA) and made things like char slots and respecs tradeable. That way we would at least had more AD flushed away with the AH cut.

    That would be the real long term solution, everything else will either be just a short term solution (raising zax cap) or has the potential to destroy the game (make everything boa). Making everything boa or bop is a good thing in subscription based or b2p games, where the cash shop is not selling anything must-have.

    Removing the zax and making the items in the zen shop buyable with ad too at a fixed ratio will make the items accesible to everyone at the same price. Make the exchange rate 1000:1 that way ppl who pay real money can get the items at the same price as now, while those who want to get it wih ad will still be able to do so, they will just pay more. Eg. Coal wards would be 1000 zen or 1m ad, and if you bought zen because you needed ad, you could exchange it at a rate of 1000:1, but you won't be able to purchase zen with ad. So, no more profiteering and no more waiting in line for zen to purchase something from the zen shop, and no morr ad introduced to the market by buying low and selling high, since that generates ad from thin air the same way as refining, but this one doesn'r have a 24k/day limit.
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