here is the thing. everyone keeps saying that rogues lack the damage to kill anyone without a daily and have no choice to be perma-stealth. i can understand you guys having far better gear/skill, but i don't see how it's impossible to win a fight on even terms without relying on stealth.
Well, the way I see it, its more of most TRs taking the path of least resistance - which is not necessarily a bad thing. Going the easy path simply means that path yields more output per your effort spent. It is undeniable certain paths are that much more efficient and effective, and hence, when you put two people of similar skill down each path, it is pretty much clear who is going to be the winner.
That being said, it is possible to do otherwise. Most TRs lack the damage because they don't really slot/build for damage, and simply they invest more into survivability. In other words, if you build otherwise to emphasize more damage pound-for-pound, then it is possible to play otherwise as well. The problem is the "melee game" in NW is (as mentioned before multiple times) pretty difficult. It's probably some of the more difficult games for melee builds I've played.
As funny as it may seem, the "really melee" fighter classes are actually less effected byt this, such as the GF (who can endure enemy attacks long enough to wait for gap-closers and knock-prones to recharge) or the GWF (with the no-brainer sprint that covers half the playing field in Hotenow under 5 seconds and/or Threatening Rush to spam like crazy). In the TRs case, no such luxury. We basically walk up to the target. WK was different, but they've killed it since latest patch.
It is so difficult to melee-fight all the other classes in the game, that sometimes it is understandable why TR players make the current choices. We have to basically "walk up" to the targets that;
(1) ...can dodge 5~6 times in a row, hit with a melee power that does at least twice your typical melee damage despite being ranged, has a passive activation root type of CC that works with most attacks, as well as one of the game's fastest activating stun, tracks through stealth... and a ranged attacker on top of that
(2) ...can knock-prone you 2~3 times a row, with the game's fastest activating CC power, shaving off at least half your HP during the process, toughest defense in game, near endless pool of stamina which allows it to move faster than most horses
(3) ...can knock-prone you 2~3 times a row, with the game's fastest activating CC power, shaving off at least half your HP during the process, toughest defense in game, active damage mitigation which is 100% as well as immune to CCs
(4) ...wields one of the game's fastest activating CCs, difficult to anticipate and dodge at correct timing, has one more dodge than you which has a long and leisurely immunity time, can shave off more than half your HP with a solid CC combo, stop your stealth meter from regenerating, as well as a root power that lasts for more than 3~4 seconds even when you're a halfling with Eleven Battle enchantment
(5) ...doesn't die
Exactly the reason why I want some more potent CCs to use gainst these opponents, something that will allow me to slash, hack, stab, without having to see a dazed opponent simply walk straight away and just make your well-landed (its a **** difficult job!) Dazing Strike go to waste.
the other thing is how permas work. from what i notice, they do their best when backcapping but die when they come to mid. and i have yet to see a rogue that is as tanky as i am. almost all of the permas i see are the path-of-blade type so i have not been impressed by their performance at mid.
also, i am not even sure if elo even works. if it does, then i think it's more concerned about comparing group elo rather than singular elo.
but more on-topic......does anyone even know the set bonus on black ice gear? that was really all i wanted to know xD
As I said, the problem isn't being tanky when you're assisting at mid. The problem is whether you can wipe the enemy with a 5v4 numbers advantage fast at mid, enough to offset the effects of perma/semi-perma guy at your back node so you remain with 2 nodes more often than not. This is possible in PuG games, but much less in premade levels. People just don't die there.
Ofcourse, the implications are clear. What this means, is we were to be able to get a viable alternative build for a TR that does not rely on the corny perma-stealth or the perfect stealth-ITC-SS rotations, then it means that the alternative needs to be able to dish up more, much more damage than any perma/semi-perma build so that the difference is so clearly visible. As it is, permas may be "weak", but not by much - whereas non-permas may be stronger, but the "melee game" is much too difficult in the game to yield good enough results.
Another reason to really stregthen TR CCs, I say.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
the other thing is how permas work. from what i notice, they do their best when backcapping but die when they come to mid. and i have yet to see a rogue that is as tanky as i am. almost all of the permas i see are the path-of-blade type so i have not been impressed by their performance at mid.
Not sure how many true permas you've seen. but I'm confident I can hold mid for a significant amount of time alone with my permastealth rotation, and let my allies do the back-capping and defending of home base. Mid gets the most action so I like camping it when someone else can back cap for the team, specially if my allies can't cap mid. I'll just step on whichever node that my team is having the most trouble with.
To add, everyone keeps saying that rogues lack the damage to kill anyone simply because it has been tested and proven by the high-end population themselves. Before they spec-ed for permastealth, they were spec-ed as what people like to call nowadays as "combat" TR. They were high-end DPS rogues spec-ed to burst things down to death (IS/LB/ITC, IS/SS/ITC, and what other DPS stuff people liked to slot), and they were **** good at what they were doing. But come Tenacity patch, crits got gimped, Impact Shot got a double nerf, and defensive play was being promoted by the new PVP meta. What other encounters should we use exactly to burst people down nowadays, and where exactly is the place of burst in a defensive meta? We can most probably burst CW's down, but then again anyone except for the DC can do that. A lot of these high-end players looked down on us true permas, simply because they dislike the play style and that we dealt too little damage. But nowadays they are forced to replicate our play style, which is ironic and sad at the same time. It just sucks because back then you'd rarely see someone who plays the same way as you, and when you do meet one, the 1 vs. 1's you'd had against that guy would be so awesome. But nowadays all you see are PotB FotM TR's. Variety is lost, fighting against PotB TR's isn't exactly the most immersive experience. We've been basically relegated to such a state.
You can try to spec for burst if you wish, and I'm sure a LOT of TR's would like to play with builds that does not rely on Stealth but would still have the effectiveness to take their game up to premade levels. The knowledge and means for such a build isn't available at the moment so it'd be wonderful if someone can enlighten us as to how to spec TR's for burst with this meta.
The fact is you either burst and kill or die soon but burst is gone for infinite nerfs, tenacity and people stacking hp. give tr unstoppable and the tankyness of a sentinel and i will try to play combat style. I find stupid to use a tr as a gwf, we have stealth and we should use it at its fullest. We still die tho and we still are the best at 1vs1
Comments
Well, the way I see it, its more of most TRs taking the path of least resistance - which is not necessarily a bad thing. Going the easy path simply means that path yields more output per your effort spent. It is undeniable certain paths are that much more efficient and effective, and hence, when you put two people of similar skill down each path, it is pretty much clear who is going to be the winner.
That being said, it is possible to do otherwise. Most TRs lack the damage because they don't really slot/build for damage, and simply they invest more into survivability. In other words, if you build otherwise to emphasize more damage pound-for-pound, then it is possible to play otherwise as well. The problem is the "melee game" in NW is (as mentioned before multiple times) pretty difficult. It's probably some of the more difficult games for melee builds I've played.
As funny as it may seem, the "really melee" fighter classes are actually less effected byt this, such as the GF (who can endure enemy attacks long enough to wait for gap-closers and knock-prones to recharge) or the GWF (with the no-brainer sprint that covers half the playing field in Hotenow under 5 seconds and/or Threatening Rush to spam like crazy). In the TRs case, no such luxury. We basically walk up to the target. WK was different, but they've killed it since latest patch.
It is so difficult to melee-fight all the other classes in the game, that sometimes it is understandable why TR players make the current choices. We have to basically "walk up" to the targets that;
(1) ...can dodge 5~6 times in a row, hit with a melee power that does at least twice your typical melee damage despite being ranged, has a passive activation root type of CC that works with most attacks, as well as one of the game's fastest activating stun, tracks through stealth... and a ranged attacker on top of that
(2) ...can knock-prone you 2~3 times a row, with the game's fastest activating CC power, shaving off at least half your HP during the process, toughest defense in game, near endless pool of stamina which allows it to move faster than most horses
(3) ...can knock-prone you 2~3 times a row, with the game's fastest activating CC power, shaving off at least half your HP during the process, toughest defense in game, active damage mitigation which is 100% as well as immune to CCs
(4) ...wields one of the game's fastest activating CCs, difficult to anticipate and dodge at correct timing, has one more dodge than you which has a long and leisurely immunity time, can shave off more than half your HP with a solid CC combo, stop your stealth meter from regenerating, as well as a root power that lasts for more than 3~4 seconds even when you're a halfling with Eleven Battle enchantment
(5) ...doesn't die
Exactly the reason why I want some more potent CCs to use gainst these opponents, something that will allow me to slash, hack, stab, without having to see a dazed opponent simply walk straight away and just make your well-landed (its a **** difficult job!) Dazing Strike go to waste.
As I said, the problem isn't being tanky when you're assisting at mid. The problem is whether you can wipe the enemy with a 5v4 numbers advantage fast at mid, enough to offset the effects of perma/semi-perma guy at your back node so you remain with 2 nodes more often than not. This is possible in PuG games, but much less in premade levels. People just don't die there.
Ofcourse, the implications are clear. What this means, is we were to be able to get a viable alternative build for a TR that does not rely on the corny perma-stealth or the perfect stealth-ITC-SS rotations, then it means that the alternative needs to be able to dish up more, much more damage than any perma/semi-perma build so that the difference is so clearly visible. As it is, permas may be "weak", but not by much - whereas non-permas may be stronger, but the "melee game" is much too difficult in the game to yield good enough results.
Another reason to really stregthen TR CCs, I say.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Not sure how many true permas you've seen. but I'm confident I can hold mid for a significant amount of time alone with my permastealth rotation, and let my allies do the back-capping and defending of home base. Mid gets the most action so I like camping it when someone else can back cap for the team, specially if my allies can't cap mid. I'll just step on whichever node that my team is having the most trouble with.
To add, everyone keeps saying that rogues lack the damage to kill anyone simply because it has been tested and proven by the high-end population themselves. Before they spec-ed for permastealth, they were spec-ed as what people like to call nowadays as "combat" TR. They were high-end DPS rogues spec-ed to burst things down to death (IS/LB/ITC, IS/SS/ITC, and what other DPS stuff people liked to slot), and they were **** good at what they were doing. But come Tenacity patch, crits got gimped, Impact Shot got a double nerf, and defensive play was being promoted by the new PVP meta. What other encounters should we use exactly to burst people down nowadays, and where exactly is the place of burst in a defensive meta? We can most probably burst CW's down, but then again anyone except for the DC can do that. A lot of these high-end players looked down on us true permas, simply because they dislike the play style and that we dealt too little damage. But nowadays they are forced to replicate our play style, which is ironic and sad at the same time. It just sucks because back then you'd rarely see someone who plays the same way as you, and when you do meet one, the 1 vs. 1's you'd had against that guy would be so awesome. But nowadays all you see are PotB FotM TR's. Variety is lost, fighting against PotB TR's isn't exactly the most immersive experience. We've been basically relegated to such a state.
You can try to spec for burst if you wish, and I'm sure a LOT of TR's would like to play with builds that does not rely on Stealth but would still have the effectiveness to take their game up to premade levels. The knowledge and means for such a build isn't available at the moment so it'd be wonderful if someone can enlighten us as to how to spec TR's for burst with this meta.