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Mod 3 and Stealth: Black ice armor
kuyabay
Member Posts: 56
It seems like tr's new black ice armor will be bis for both pve and pvp. Unless I miss it somewhere, there's no extra stealth duration. Will you be holding on to your profound/current pvp sets for the stealth, or must we absolutely switch over to the new black ice gears to be viable? Your thoughts?
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what about for us non-permas? majority of our set bonuses being geared for stealth is generally why i never wear a full set. 15% tenacity + 40% deflect is all i really need.
If by non-permas u mean low recovery/int with/without Shadow Strike then you will not have fun once run into any legit player/team.
The so call perma build nowaday are the only viable one , also the best build for TR in PVP.
Again if you never intend to compete in the Top tier PVP community or Premade, there are as much ways to play your TR as you like.
i wouldn't say low recovery/int as i use both for skill cooldowns as well. u might be right about premades, but i never see an issue in pugs since i do just fine as long as prone spam is not chasing my tail.
If there is no Bile TR/Good GWF/Good HR, then your option is open, but if you get matched up to those you gonna have a bad time. Even some good GF and CW can gives you trouble. If you don't run a long stealth build.
bile rogues i admit will defeat me hands down as are most people matched against it, but i don't actively try to fight them at home node which is where they stay mostly.
only hunters that ever give me trouble abuse jumping and the grounded ones i can dispatch with easily unless they got a numbers advantage.
as for good gwf's, it's a 50-50. sometimes i win and sometimes i don't, but the actual fight takes so long that it usually gets interrupted by reinforcements anyways. ps: 2 dodges + deft strike + the occasional stealth bar from avoiding damage generally leads to a win depending on timing and how well i dodge the prones. if i do well with deft strike then i can easily kill a gwf b4 they kill me. if not, then oh well.
wizards? never lost to one 1-on-1 unless they got extremely lucky with that meteor skill and dropped it directly on me b4 i could dodge. wizards r the main class that actually needs a number advantage to even have a chance of killing me b4 i kill them.
as for guardians, deft strike is a counter to them. 1-on-1 i should kill them without losing more than half my hp. they r just annoying when they spam prones while i am focusing on someone else.
anyways, my main targets r the ranged dps and i let the rest of my team deal with the tanks.
Don't use deft stike, that is the last advice I can give you, it is legit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Not trying to talk anyone down but I think you are not really exp with the whole PVP scene, or at least I can tell that you pug 99% of your PVP.
I can easily conclude that any legit PVP player would beat you in a 1 v 1 aside from a DC, if you are one of those that use deft strike.
i highly doubt it unless they r overgeared. maybe hunters since the good ones r tanky on top of their mobility, but wizards/guardians can't pull it off without help.
gwf's i already said is dependent on how well i dodge.
i would try to prove you wrong if we had a duel option.......unless u can force us to be matched against each other
i also admitted in an earlier post that i won't beat a bile rogue
if u say so mr. pvp guild. never grouped with more than 3 people for pvp and thus never had 2 full groups queueing at the same time.
i sent u a pm to add me on steam to coordinate this easier
if a rogue actually needed that to kill a non-gwf/cleric, then that's their problem.
combat tr needs SE to kill any good pvp player.
without it there is only one burst power which isnt realy reliable.
but nwm u will fell it yourself in a month when the nerf comes
must be a premade thing as i can get away with whirlwind of blades which also ignores resists
yeah its higher geared people with fotm builds.
still, this perma being the only viable build sounds like it is strictly for premades and that's most likely the minority of matches
Any build that is viable in premade works like a charm in all pug games. Most builds that are viable in pug game is joke in premades.
And Premade build would beat any non-premade build out there because it is just a better build once you learn how to play it. Pug game and premade game are the same PVP game, only difference is that people who premade usually roll with better build and better skill.
they must never or rarely pug as i have never run into someone i can't kill that is not a perma, an overgeared gwf, or a jumping hunter. those 3 exceptions r the only thing that has given me trouble....besides dual clerics but that just takes a little longer.
even then:
some permas r so predictable that i don't even need to play their game of hide-n-seek. they are so vulnerable when they try to flurry that i can just wait for that, then do a stealthed lashing as they will rarely be in ITC while using flurry, and follow with my own flurry. i even killed them on my cleric like that since they let me hit them with punishing light because they think it's an easy win if you sit still so they can keep using flurry.
and shocking execution is the gwf killer. if i can't kill him the slow way, then i have a daily to give me the win anyways.
as for the jumping hunters.....i need someone to cc them >.>. otherwise it's like a never-ending chase even with deft strike.
I am not gonna trying to convince you, enjoy killing 10k gs scrubs....
if u think everyone i fight is 10k then i won't change your mind
edit: the irony in this is that i really just wanted to know the set bonuses on black ice gear as i couldn't find it mentioned on preview and then everyone decided to go offtopic with their premade logic
(1) High INT + silv echantment builds bring down the ITC recharge down low enough to match default Shadow Strike recharge time.
(2) With stealth feats and 25~30% stealth time increase stealth itself lasts for around 10 secs, give or take a few.
Combine points 1+2 and basically you have an opponent that has almost zero vulnerability time. Realistically speaking flushing out a TR from its stealth is nearly impossible, and the only time you will be able to attempt any attack is when he is visible, and when he is visible he is in ITC -- everytime. When ITC is up, his Shadow Strike is also back up, and then he goes back into stealth. Even when there is maybe 2~5 seconds of delay time between when his ITC ends and SS recharge, that time can be easily covered with DF or simply dodging a couple of times and gaining distance.
Realistically speaking, what happens when anything else faces a TR of that build, is that he will first get puckered away by knives, and then when he becomes visible none of your attacks land true. Or, he simply runs a bit, gains a bit of distance, and by the time you might have caught up (which is also impossible in most cases, since TRs don't really have viable gap-closers) he's back in stealth. Then you repeat the above until the damage from his knives amounts upto levels you can't handle -- and then you're dead.
...
As it is, unless ITC recharge is set to around 30 secs or so, so that there is always some amount of downtime for other classes to exploit, currently, no other TR build can really compete. Even if he's not total perma and just semi-perma.
The system's just set that way.
Now that doesn't mean other TR builds are useless, and people here emphasize this "1vs1" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> way too much. PvP isn't a duel, but the imagery of the "invincible 1vs1 TR", or the "TR that infilitrates the back nodes to dance with 2~3 people at the same time" is like a religion around here.
If you can make a difference big enough with a "Combat" build (and when your team is also smart enough), so that you just dump the enemy TR alone, go assist another node and use the 5v4 numbers advantage to cream the rest of the enemy team and hold on to two nodes more often, then it doesn't matter what the 1vs1 holists tell you, you've done your job.
However, the problem is that in higher levels of PvP, the time-to-kill is way longer than the time required for a single enemy TR to cap your back node. The reason why combat TRs works in PuGs is less of a skill/gear factor itself, but rather in games where generally people have a lower skill or gear, the difference in tactical advantages are more clearly displayed. In a PuG game you can wipe out the enemy team a lot faster when its 5vs4, than when you are playing a premade level game.
So team-wise, its difficult to deny the "back-node crawling TR" is still more efficient than any "combat" build.
Unless something is done to nerf the effects of high-INT + fast-recharging ITC, anyone seeking an alternative will meet a huge, gaping chasm the size of the Grand Canyon that is systematically impossible to cross.
The developers have got the wrong idea. It's not stealth they should be seeking to nerf, but rather, they should have looked into how bull**** the stealth-ITC-SS-stealth-ITC-SS rotation is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I don't go out of my way to fight permas/semi-permas unless they are being too obvious on where they are at mid xD. otherwise, i let someone else handle the backcapper while i tank 2-3 people at mid.
there r ramifications for nerfing ITC though. 1st is that it is crucial in order to melee in pve and without it, u will spend most of the fight running around and not fighting. 2nd is that it's also crucial for combat rogues in order to freely fight while visible and there is too much cc to wait on a much longer cooldown. basically, nerfing it might truly make every rogue have to be perma in order to pvp.
i agree with everything else u said as very, very few people have high regen, rank 10s, perfect enchants, emblem of seldarine, etc in pugs. it's just as effective to be combat in pugs as long as neither team is completely dedicated on killing a perma. i do die, but i also rake in high kills that are rarely matched by other rogues as long as 2-3 prone machines don't chase me everywhere.
although, i do wonder how effective a frost enchant is at <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up a perma's rotation.
FOTM means flavor of the month.the build all bis tr use is not even a month old.
but u are probably not well informed so u dont know that.
Join the first neverwinter giveaway
Unfortunately ITC is both what keeps TR effective (at least for MIs) and at the same time, what "dumbs down" the combat for TRs as well, making the entire 'game' we TRs play much too dependant on it. It is also the prime reason why some specialized TR builds simply border on OP.
As the father of the (what is now called) the "Combat TR" concept (...stretching quite some time ago when I came to these boards with the concept of the "direct combat support" TR, about the time I've also first started dabbling in possible WK builds concepts that didn't rely on any of the major "selling points" for what was deemed the 'orthodox' way to build a TR...) I've actually gained some insight on how to avoid being the focused target without having to use ITC, since I've spent most of the last year being a WK without ITC.
The funny thing is, after they killed VP I've went back to MI for some time for more experimentation, and simply realized that ITC is a no-brainer. I'm not even geared or built for INT/recharge and still it is ready and recharged in most cases, especially in large-scale fights where remaining outside your opponent's awareness despite being physically visible is but a matter of careful timing and positioning.
In most cases I find myself just going berserk whenever I please, because ITC is always there when I need it and never more than 5~7 seconds away even when still in recharge. Couple that with SS and I can see why some newbie players have trouble telling the difference between a perma, a semi-perma and non-perma TRs. When you're using ITC, there's no real difference to your opponents. Whenever they see you, you are literally "Impossible to Catch", and when that time is up, you disappear.
...
At this point I sincerely think ITC needs to be nerfed -- the compensation being more tools for TRs to use even during visible combat. From the top of my head, these are the changes I would like to see:
These are just wild ideas, but the implications are clear. In a game where CC is so important, we TRs are the class that has almost no viable CC powers to wield at all. The one CC that actually controls the other player for more than 3s, takes almost 2s to land. All other stun/dazes that activate fast enough last so short (and even shorter after Tenacity) that it is almost meaningless as an offensive tool (guaranteeing extra attacks).
Pretty much in almost all other games stealthed classes may not have the best CCs, but still they have the best tactical use of CCs as a whole. The dangerous situations where he is visible he uses those CCs to control and set-up for extra attacks, or use it to buy time to escape. Not so in NW.
Couple that fact with the difficulty of sticking to maneuvering targets (due to the infamous self-root during power activation) and it is no wonder most TRs simply giveup the melee game as a whole and decide to remain dominantly ranged. While we are visible, not only are we just vulnerable, but also we have it so goddarned difficult to stick to dodging, teleporting enemies and actually land any attack, that we predominantly rely on just one at-will power to do any damage at all.
IMO this is the direction the developers need to envision what the TR needs to be, not meddle with stealth itself. Increase the resilience and combat value of the TR when he is visible, and not in a way by throwing him a "god-mode" 100% defelct, CC immunity power. Give it longer recharge time so the TR has a surely vulnerable timing, but at the same time give him other tools to increase the combat efficiency even when visible.
I scored a 29 kill 0 death game with my old WK build yesterday. That doesn't mean VP with a 16s recharge is fine.
Unfortunately all these other enchantments have way too short "uptime" to really matter. I've actually tried both Frost enchantments for weapons as well as armor. Didn't make much of a difference.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i do agree with all of your suggested buffs
true. i just compare myself with other rogues to see how i fare against the perma-variety meta.
true.
fotm means flavor of the month. u were not using it as it is this month.
pob sab spec
I'm not sure how exactly to convince or describe this concept to anyone because it is a fairly basic and should be intuitive. If you want to be your best, you have to be your best against other people who are the best, not just against people who do not know what they are doing. (And I do believe people who are not geared would also fall under that category because the only reason anyone shouldn't be geared is if they are a casual gamer. Then again, if they are a casual gamer, they lack enough PvP experience to truly know what they are doing.)
do not reply to this mod note. send us a PM instead to discuss it.
WB, Sorrow. Thought you quit already so I'm glad to see you around again. You should post more and give advice, man. We've only got a few beta TR's around and it'd be awesome if you could impart some of your knowledge.
here is the thing. everyone keeps saying that rogues lack the damage to kill anyone without a daily and have no choice to be perma-stealth. i can understand you guys having far better gear/skill, but i don't see how it's impossible to win a fight on even terms without relying on stealth.
the other thing is how permas work. from what i notice, they do their best when backcapping but die when they come to mid. and i have yet to see a rogue that is as tanky as i am. almost all of the permas i see are the path-of-blade type so i have not been impressed by their performance at mid.
also, i am not even sure if elo even works. if it does, then i think it's more concerned about comparing group elo rather than singular elo.
but more on-topic......does anyone even know the set bonus on black ice gear? that was really all i wanted to know xD