considering the base 10k that some have provided, those calcs should come out to either 24,842.63 if the 30% feat is a final modifer or 21,102.38 if not. with combat advantage, this probably goes up to 25,322.865 or 29,811.15
That 'base' damage of 11.5k was dealt on a GWF with unstoppable with over 50% hp as a non-crit in a normal fight situation. I do not question your calculation, but this shows only that too many things add up here. It is obvious that 25k-30k is a too high spike damage for a daily in PvP.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Here it is again. There is a ton of proof in this thread. There are videos, live feeds, image captures, and testimonies from reliable top players (some being rogues themselves). How much more proof do you want? I'm sure the devs can do a database search and see the accurate numbers for themselves.
Nope, there isn't a ton of proof. There isn't any proof infact. Lots of claims and people throwing out unsubstantiated claims, but no actual vids of 80% health targets being shoxed for 30k+ damage, just people saying it happened and then ranting about it.
Persephone did a test and came up with pretty reasonable numbers that show it's pretty much WAI.
That's not to say there isn't a bug or issue that makes SE act weird at times or do big numbers under specific circumstances, this is Cryptic, bugs are everywhere, but it isn't a common problem that happens all the time. If you feel otherwise please link to a video that demonstrates your claims. Telling us others have proven it but you haven't got time to find the link or you can't remember where you saw it is of no use to anyone.
I don't know why people keep saying SE can't be escaped. Dodged, maybe not, but I'm being frequently interrupted mid-cast, both in PvP and PvE...
You wanna compare your "frequent" interruptions, against the frequency of people getting hit by it without any hopes of any means of defense?
Remember. As a TR you only remember the time your most trusty power failed, maybe once in a while... and simply tend to wipe from memory all the gazillion instances it hits square without any problems at all.
Nothing strange. Simple human psyche.
I can guarantee if you actually try keeping track of success/failures, those hard facts will tell you just how "frequently" you are interrupted. It's the same as someone trying to lose weight. Nobody really remembers accurately just how much they've taken in calories, until you start keeping records. Then you realize you're actually eating a lot more than you thought -- hence why you don't lose weight
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You wanna compare your "frequent" interruptions, against the frequency of people getting hit by it without any hopes of any means of defense?
Remember. As a TR you only remember the time your most trusty power failed, maybe once in a while... and simply tend to wipe from memory all the gazillion instances it hits square without any problems at all.
Nothing strange. Simple human psyche.
I can guarantee if you actually try keeping track of success/failures, those hard facts will tell you just how "frequently" you are interrupted. It's the same as someone trying to lose weight. Nobody really remembers accurately just how much they've taken in calories, until you start keeping records. Then you realize you're actually eating a lot more than you thought -- hence why you don't lose weight
that highly depends on the enemy team composition and their tactics
guardian fighters tend to follow me, but after realizing how mobile i am they either give up chasing me while i am chasing ranged dps or keep meddling in my fight whenever they get in range. when they are in range, they can easily delay u for 10 seconds if u keep trying to use a daily instead of dodging the very instant u get up as ITC will likely get interrupted too (and this is if u can even dodge b4 the next prone).
most hunters don't even use disruptive shot. some will spam it every chance they get. others will save it and then spam it the moment u try to use a daily on them. a single hunter also delayed me for at least 6-10 seconds due to my ITC being on cooldown already. even if i execute during ITC, disruptive shot will still cancel it but not stun me because the interrupt goes through immunity for some reason.
wizards, i agree, will most likely never interrupt it in time and if they do, we have ITC.
clerics need to be able to switch to divinity quickly and sunburst but that is so short of a delay that it can't be considered unless their team follows-up on it.
gwf's almost never interrupt me but we tend to not be in each other's face unless necessary. gwf's simply chase other classes more frequently instead of rogues.
basically, it's up to the hunters/guardians/gwf's to keep a rogue from using it and those that prioritize rogues will do so.
It is broken no matter how hard TRs deny it. You WILL get nerfed, it is not supposed to scale so much and it is not supposed to ignore tenacity. Judging from the past experiences where a bunch of TRs absolutely bombarded the forums with QQ about GWF and the Sent Skills got nerfed/are getting nerfed further in Mod3, I believe we should never let this issue die until the daily is fixed and so is the darned bugged perma stealth build. Justice must be served and nobody must be overpowered by default of class choice in pvp.
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The skill flat says in description that it ignores all defenses.
That means all damage reduction, including tenacity. You take the DR avoidance away from that skill and it is flat useless, lashing blade, wicked reminder, heck even dazing strike out-damages it. Are you actually not understanding there are other dailies, and even encounters, we have access to far more vicious at that point?
Will you ever stop screaming for nerfs for the class designed for single-target damage, exclusively, for... doing decent single-target damage?
The skill flat says in description that it ignores all defenses.
I am pretty sure that means an individual character's defenses. Tenacity was a global defense buff so it is entirely up to the Devs to decide whether a single skill should ignore it. Also tooltips have been known not to have been properly updated for ages........
I'm sure it's been mentioned already in this thread, but rogues have the worst AP generation. It was actually shocking (pun intended) coming from a cw to a rogue and not being able to use dailies very often at all.
Basically in 1 game, I may be able to use SE 3 or 4 times, but it's not always the best one to use, so in reality I use SE roughly 1 or 2 times a game.
When you get hit with it, you're going to remember it for sure, but it's not a frequent thing at all, especially compared to my CW who can Ice Knife pretty much every fight or every other fight.
If you don't play a TR, it's going to seem like rogues are running around with this I-win button all the time, when really we're not. If you get hit by it, that's only because you had the misfortune of being lowish around a rogue who happened to have AP already generated.
I'm sure it's been mentioned already in this thread, but rogues have the worst AP generation. It was actually shocking (pun intended) coming from a cw to a rogue and not being able to use dailies very often at all.
You're not doing it right then. To generate AP a CW has to cast. If you're playing correctly, they should not be able to cast much, as they should run around scared like little girls as you dip them in poison. You, however, with your high Recovery and always casting, should build AP extremely fast. A good TR has Shocking up very very often.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
I'm sure it's been mentioned already in this thread, but rogues have the worst AP generation. It was actually shocking (pun intended) coming from a cw to a rogue and not being able to use dailies very often at all.
Basically in 1 game, I may be able to use SE 3 or 4 times, but it's not always the best one to use, so in reality I use SE roughly 1 or 2 times a game.
When you get hit with it, you're going to remember it for sure, but it's not a frequent thing at all, especially compared to my CW who can Ice Knife pretty much every fight or every other fight.
If you don't play a TR, it's going to seem like rogues are running around with this I-win button all the time, when really we're not. If you get hit by it, that's only because you had the misfortune of being lowish around a rogue who happened to have AP already generated.
I have 84% AP generation with my 11 k GS TR LOL in 1 min i have 2 times win button ... LOL
What you say is not true.... i dont comment it . And if someone is soo stupid to kill my shadow self i have 3 times win button in 1 min.
And 1 thing more SE is not the only one win button Courage Breaker is another win button.
I have 84% AP generation with my 11 k GS TR LOL in 1 min i have 2 times win button ... LOL
What you say is not true.... i dont comment it . And if someone is soo stupid to kill my shadow self i have 3 times win button in 1 min.
And 1 thing more SE is not the only one win button Courage Breaker is another win button.
You get a daily every 30 seconds? I find that really hard to believe.
My first spec had some %AP generation, but it didn't seem to do much. I don't think it was like 84% though. I have no idea how you'd get that much.
The most I see in feats is 30% from stealth (combining two feats). Nothing even remotely close to 84%.
And like I said, I tried those in my first spec but the gains were not worth other things I could spec for imo.
You're not doing it right then. To generate AP a CW has to cast. If you're playing correctly, they should not be able to cast much, as they should run around scared like little girls as you dip them in poison. You, however, with your high Recovery and always casting, should build AP extremely fast. A good TR has Shocking up very very often.
I have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> recovery compared to my CW.
Also I don't like playing perma-******, and only resort to it if my team is down.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
You get a daily every 30 seconds? I find that really hard to believe.
My first spec had some %AP generation, but it didn't seem to do much. I don't think it was like 84% though. I have no idea how you'd get that much.
The most I see in feats is 30% from stealth (combining two feats). Nothing even remotely close to 84%.
And like I said, I tried those in my first spec but the gains were not worth other things I could spec for imo.
Also if i go in dpvp or gpvp first i put in Wicked Reminder 2.4 sec CD so i can charge up my daly before the count start .
Perma TR is too Strong belive me i have now 19 k GS GWF and no chance to stand aganst 5 ppl but my 11 k TR can make it :O.I kite them down with WoB if they kill my shadow .
I have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> recovery compared to my CW.
Also I don't like playing perma-******, and only resort to it if my team is down.
Elf +20 int 2 % more ap gain Tactics +15% Action advantage +10 % Cunning Stalker"Press 'Tab' to enter Stealth, allowing you to move undetected for a short time. You have Combat Advantage against targets that aren't aware of you, and your encounter powers gain new effects.
20% Shalandar boon 2% Action rush 15 % (procc too often instant gain 15 % of the AP bar) with no recovery my base AP gain is 49 % without any recovery and Action Rush and no buff . I can get from buffs +600 recovery and boom i have 4 k recovery +4k power+ if i kill somone i gain 1% ap.
PS: i forget the 3.6 % from event pet and you can get more if you have the book of dead arti.
But i know this only 250 action point gain give you 3.6 % boost arti give 400 on max rank i think if both are on y you gain around 8 % more ap gain + recovery+ feats +boon+ raical .Mybe i can reach 90% .
So summa summa 27% from recovery stat +49% base +3,6 % from pet i have 79.6% ap gain + if i use any encounter i gain 15% AP if i kill somone i gain 1% ap and i dont talk about the sommer festival food and april food. Bit less then 84 % but was a quick calc in my mind i apologize for it.
Elf +20 int 2 % more ap gain Tactics +15% Action advantage +10 % Cunning Stalker 20% Shalandar boon 2% Action rush 15 % (procc too often instant gain 15 % of the AP bar) with no recovery my base AP gain is 49 % without any recovery and Action Rush and no buff . I can get from buffs +600 recovery and boom i have 4 k recovery +4k power.
Hmm interesting. My recovery is currently sitting at 454 right now... Maybe things will seem different once I get more.
I wouldn't go so far as to go for the recovery/power buff set though- I'd miss the extra stealth from the pvp sets too much.
Still, I guess I need to work on getting more recovery...
In any case, your example is an extreme case and you're specced and geared totally for AP gain and recharge speed. Most rogues are not able to get their dailies up nearly as fast.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Hmm interesting. My recovery is currently sitting at 454 right now... Maybe things will seem different once I get more.
I wouldn't go so far as to go for the recovery/power buff set though- I'd miss the extra stealth from the pvp sets too much.
Still, I guess I need to work on getting more recovery...
In any case, your example is an extreme case and you're specced and geared totally for AP gain and recharge speed. Most rogues are not able to get their dailies up nearly as fast.
Cuz i dont care about armor pen . My job is to execute and hold nod aganst 5 ppl :)or more in GG.
Action rush 15 % (procc too often instant gain 15 % of the AP bar)
You can't count 15% chance to generate 15% of your AP bar as 15%. It's really 2.25%, (0.15*0.15*100%) while you're calculating (1*0.15*100%). That's like saying CWs have 100% crit chance because they have Eye of the Storm.
Still, I agree that TRs have adequate AP gain, probably around two thirds of what CWs get, assuming no one kills a dummy. I think the real problem with SE is a problem that affects all defense ignoring attacks. This game uses stat creep to get people with established gear to always have something new to build up to, but SE, along with other similar attacks, take in the new power but can completely ignore the new defense. Initially, when people had low power with low defense, the defense loss was negligible, but now with high power and high defense, it's much more noticeable. Even if the damage of SE is reduced now, in a few months when they release new artifacts/gear, we'll run into the same problem.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
You can't count 15% chance to generate 15% of your AP bar as 15%. It's really 2.25%, (0.15*0.15*100%) while you're calculating (1*0.15*100%). That's like saying CWs have 100% crit chance because they have Eye of the Storm.
Still, I agree that TRs have adequate AP gain, probably around two thirds of what CWs get, assuming no one kills a dummy. I think the real problem with SE is a problem that affects all defense ignoring attacks. This game uses stat creep to get people with established gear to always have something new to build up to, but SE, along with other similar attacks, take in the new power but can completely ignore the new defense. Initially, when people had low power with low defense, the defense loss was negligible, but now with high power and high defense, it's much more noticeable. Even if the damage of SE is reduced now, in a few months when they release new artifacts/gear, we'll run into the same problem.
All my calculation was without Action rush . Action rush is a bonus above my 79.6 % AP gain.+the kill 1%
Also in dung runs i noticed i activate more time daly then any CW or GF cuz i use smal aoe Wicked Reminder and DS + the dummy. MY dps is way better as my cuzin Exe Tree my power is almost 7 k after i use Wob.
You wanna compare your "frequent" interruptions, against the frequency of people getting hit by it without any hopes of any means of defense?
Remember. As a TR you only remember the time your most trusty power failed, maybe once in a while... and simply tend to wipe from memory all the gazillion instances it hits square without any problems at all.
Nothing strange. Simple human psyche.
I can guarantee if you actually try keeping track of success/failures, those hard facts will tell you just how "frequently" you are interrupted. It's the same as someone trying to lose weight. Nobody really remembers accurately just how much they've taken in calories, until you start keeping records. Then you realize you're actually eating a lot more than you thought -- hence why you don't lose weight
Well, the frequency seems to be around 60% hit and 40% miss... so my point still stands :P
Dunno how anyone can deny its damage. I've managed to take a lot of even gwfs health from 50-75% hp from shocking execution and my rogue playing skills arent very high. Sometimes managing to kill them from that amount. That's without the undodgeable part being accounted for. Sure sometimes it doesn't cast properly, but all classes get that and I assume that its due to the delay between client and server side and the fact that you got cc'd or died server side before the server received the request that you activated your daily. I could be wrong about that but that's what I imagine to be the case.
Things I'd like to see:
* SE nerfed for pvp
* Perma stealth nerfed
* Rogues buffed in other areas.
Dunno how anyone can deny its damage. I've managed to take a lot of even gwfs health from 50-75% hp from shocking execution and my rogue playing skills arent very high. Sometimes managing to kill them from that amount. That's without the undodgeable part being accounted for. Sure sometimes it doesn't cast properly, but all classes get that and I assume that its due to the delay between client and server side and the fact that you got cc'd or died server side before the server received the request that you activated your daily. I could be wrong about that but that's what I imagine to be the case.
Things I'd like to see:
* SE nerfed for pvp
* Perma stealth nerfed
* Rogues buffed in other areas.
It has nothing to do with server load, it's plain old being interrupted mid cast. I can press SE on you, and you can stop me by throwing a knife my way, or prone me with an instant encounter... this happens to me often, as I said before; if it's not the target interrupting me, then it's one of the other 4 players around him... as for damage, I've never killed someone from half HP... sure, I brought them down to 10% and finished them with a LB, but that's about it
(no PvP gear, and I suspect the targets I actually get to damage are also not big fans of PvP)
Edit: and if you're gonna call for something, call for fixing, not nerfing. The only char I have is a TR, and nerfing will bring its usefulness down to zilch in PvE if it gets any more bashing from the devs.
Comments
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Nope, there isn't a ton of proof. There isn't any proof infact. Lots of claims and people throwing out unsubstantiated claims, but no actual vids of 80% health targets being shoxed for 30k+ damage, just people saying it happened and then ranting about it.
Persephone did a test and came up with pretty reasonable numbers that show it's pretty much WAI.
That's not to say there isn't a bug or issue that makes SE act weird at times or do big numbers under specific circumstances, this is Cryptic, bugs are everywhere, but it isn't a common problem that happens all the time. If you feel otherwise please link to a video that demonstrates your claims. Telling us others have proven it but you haven't got time to find the link or you can't remember where you saw it is of no use to anyone.
You wanna compare your "frequent" interruptions, against the frequency of people getting hit by it without any hopes of any means of defense?
Remember. As a TR you only remember the time your most trusty power failed, maybe once in a while... and simply tend to wipe from memory all the gazillion instances it hits square without any problems at all.
Nothing strange. Simple human psyche.
I can guarantee if you actually try keeping track of success/failures, those hard facts will tell you just how "frequently" you are interrupted. It's the same as someone trying to lose weight. Nobody really remembers accurately just how much they've taken in calories, until you start keeping records. Then you realize you're actually eating a lot more than you thought -- hence why you don't lose weight
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
that highly depends on the enemy team composition and their tactics
guardian fighters tend to follow me, but after realizing how mobile i am they either give up chasing me while i am chasing ranged dps or keep meddling in my fight whenever they get in range. when they are in range, they can easily delay u for 10 seconds if u keep trying to use a daily instead of dodging the very instant u get up as ITC will likely get interrupted too (and this is if u can even dodge b4 the next prone).
most hunters don't even use disruptive shot. some will spam it every chance they get. others will save it and then spam it the moment u try to use a daily on them. a single hunter also delayed me for at least 6-10 seconds due to my ITC being on cooldown already. even if i execute during ITC, disruptive shot will still cancel it but not stun me because the interrupt goes through immunity for some reason.
wizards, i agree, will most likely never interrupt it in time and if they do, we have ITC.
clerics need to be able to switch to divinity quickly and sunburst but that is so short of a delay that it can't be considered unless their team follows-up on it.
gwf's almost never interrupt me but we tend to not be in each other's face unless necessary. gwf's simply chase other classes more frequently instead of rogues.
basically, it's up to the hunters/guardians/gwf's to keep a rogue from using it and those that prioritize rogues will do so.
That means all damage reduction, including tenacity. You take the DR avoidance away from that skill and it is flat useless, lashing blade, wicked reminder, heck even dazing strike out-damages it. Are you actually not understanding there are other dailies, and even encounters, we have access to far more vicious at that point?
Will you ever stop screaming for nerfs for the class designed for single-target damage, exclusively, for... doing decent single-target damage?
I am pretty sure that means an individual character's defenses. Tenacity was a global defense buff so it is entirely up to the Devs to decide whether a single skill should ignore it. Also tooltips have been known not to have been properly updated for ages........
Basically in 1 game, I may be able to use SE 3 or 4 times, but it's not always the best one to use, so in reality I use SE roughly 1 or 2 times a game.
When you get hit with it, you're going to remember it for sure, but it's not a frequent thing at all, especially compared to my CW who can Ice Knife pretty much every fight or every other fight.
If you don't play a TR, it's going to seem like rogues are running around with this I-win button all the time, when really we're not. If you get hit by it, that's only because you had the misfortune of being lowish around a rogue who happened to have AP already generated.
You're not doing it right then. To generate AP a CW has to cast. If you're playing correctly, they should not be able to cast much, as they should run around scared like little girls as you dip them in poison. You, however, with your high Recovery and always casting, should build AP extremely fast. A good TR has Shocking up very very often.
I have 84% AP generation with my 11 k GS TR LOL in 1 min i have 2 times win button ... LOL
What you say is not true.... i dont comment it . And if someone is soo stupid to kill my shadow self i have 3 times win button in 1 min.
And 1 thing more SE is not the only one win button Courage Breaker is another win button.
You get a daily every 30 seconds? I find that really hard to believe.
My first spec had some %AP generation, but it didn't seem to do much. I don't think it was like 84% though. I have no idea how you'd get that much.
The most I see in feats is 30% from stealth (combining two feats). Nothing even remotely close to 84%.
And like I said, I tried those in my first spec but the gains were not worth other things I could spec for imo.
I have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> recovery compared to my CW.
Also I don't like playing perma-******, and only resort to it if my team is down.
Elf +20 int 2 % more ap gain Tactics +15% Action advantage +10 % Cunning Stalker"Press 'Tab' to enter Stealth, allowing you to move undetected for a short time. You have Combat Advantage against targets that aren't aware of you, and your encounter powers gain new effects.
20% Shalandar boon 2% Action rush 15 % (procc too often instant gain 15 % of the AP bar) with no recovery my base AP gain is 49 % without any recovery and Action Rush and no buff . I can get from buffs +600 recovery and boom i have 4 k recovery +4k power+ if i kill somone i gain 1% ap.
PS: i forget the 3.6 % from event pet and you can get more if you have the book of dead arti.
But i know this only 250 action point gain give you 3.6 % boost arti give 400 on max rank i think if both are on y you gain around 8 % more ap gain + recovery+ feats +boon+ raical .Mybe i can reach 90% .
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Action_Point
After TR -Gf have the second best ap gain .
So summa summa 27% from recovery stat +49% base +3,6 % from pet i have 79.6% ap gain + if i use any encounter i gain 15% AP if i kill somone i gain 1% ap and i dont talk about the sommer festival food and april food. Bit less then 84 % but was a quick calc in my mind i apologize for it.
Hmm interesting. My recovery is currently sitting at 454 right now... Maybe things will seem different once I get more.
I wouldn't go so far as to go for the recovery/power buff set though- I'd miss the extra stealth from the pvp sets too much.
Still, I guess I need to work on getting more recovery...
In any case, your example is an extreme case and you're specced and geared totally for AP gain and recharge speed. Most rogues are not able to get their dailies up nearly as fast.
Cuz i dont care about armor pen . My job is to execute and hold nod aganst 5 ppl :)or more in GG.
You can't count 15% chance to generate 15% of your AP bar as 15%. It's really 2.25%, (0.15*0.15*100%) while you're calculating (1*0.15*100%). That's like saying CWs have 100% crit chance because they have Eye of the Storm.
Still, I agree that TRs have adequate AP gain, probably around two thirds of what CWs get, assuming no one kills a dummy. I think the real problem with SE is a problem that affects all defense ignoring attacks. This game uses stat creep to get people with established gear to always have something new to build up to, but SE, along with other similar attacks, take in the new power but can completely ignore the new defense. Initially, when people had low power with low defense, the defense loss was negligible, but now with high power and high defense, it's much more noticeable. Even if the damage of SE is reduced now, in a few months when they release new artifacts/gear, we'll run into the same problem.
All my calculation was without Action rush . Action rush is a bonus above my 79.6 % AP gain.+the kill 1%
Also in dung runs i noticed i activate more time daly then any CW or GF cuz i use smal aoe Wicked Reminder and DS + the dummy. MY dps is way better as my cuzin Exe Tree my power is almost 7 k after i use Wob.
Well, the frequency seems to be around 60% hit and 40% miss... so my point still stands :P
Edit: by 'miss' I mean interrupted
Things I'd like to see:
* SE nerfed for pvp
* Perma stealth nerfed
* Rogues buffed in other areas.
It has nothing to do with server load, it's plain old being interrupted mid cast. I can press SE on you, and you can stop me by throwing a knife my way, or prone me with an instant encounter... this happens to me often, as I said before; if it's not the target interrupting me, then it's one of the other 4 players around him... as for damage, I've never killed someone from half HP... sure, I brought them down to 10% and finished them with a LB, but that's about it
(no PvP gear, and I suspect the targets I actually get to damage are also not big fans of PvP)
Edit: and if you're gonna call for something, call for fixing, not nerfing. The only char I have is a TR, and nerfing will bring its usefulness down to zilch in PvE if it gets any more bashing from the devs.
and that's the problem
everyone is basing us off as permas rather than non-perma