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Leavers penalty not working
irked01
Banned Users Posts: 91
Ummm no one really cares if they have to wait 30 minutes to reque.
1: they will go farm/level not caring
2: they will get on another toon and pvp
3: they will campfire afk effectively leaving anyway (as they are not helping)
Things we might want to implement
1: Account wide penalty meaning no toon on said account will be able to que for anything
2: Make the penalty 1 hour instead of 30 minutes
3: If they campfire afk they get a 30 minute penalty account wide
4: Take out the daily pvp rewards for AD (this accounts for much of the pve base as it is an easy way to make 8,000AD per day per toon)
Thank you for your time
1: they will go farm/level not caring
2: they will get on another toon and pvp
3: they will campfire afk effectively leaving anyway (as they are not helping)
Things we might want to implement
1: Account wide penalty meaning no toon on said account will be able to que for anything
2: Make the penalty 1 hour instead of 30 minutes
3: If they campfire afk they get a 30 minute penalty account wide
4: Take out the daily pvp rewards for AD (this accounts for much of the pve base as it is an easy way to make 8,000AD per day per toon)
Thank you for your time
Post edited by irked01 on
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Comments
Why don't you make a team out of friends without the PUG system and join with that?
ad 1)
as long as there are complaints of "I did not leave but am being penalized" on the forum this might be a bad idea.
Multiple accounts.
ad 2)
Why would 60 minutes change much compared to 30 minutes?
ad 3)
How do you know they are campfire afk'ing and not talking to their guildmate and explain a strategy for PvP in guild chat?
define "campfire afk'ing", this is in my opinion such a broad term that I want to be certain what you would view as "committing the crime of campfire afk'ing", considering that there is a afk-kicking already in place.
ad4)
Why don't PvP players may earn a little reward for PvP'ing?
Sorry all except for 4 is completely absurd.
They need to address WHY people leave or afk at the campfire instead of trying to cook up harsher penalties.
As long as there are completely imbalanced matches there will be leavers and campfire stuck folks. Penalizing folks even further than having a completely outmatched team is not the right approach.
Seriously though, the leaver penalty doesn't work because it's negative reinforcement and only serves to motivate people enough to find a way around it, instead of motivating them to play the match they queued up to play. This is exactly what I said it would do when it was first announced, and any reasonable person should have seen it coming.
What they should do is find a positive way to encourage or entice people to participate in matches. Base the Glory reward on indicators that show people were active and engaged in the match. Make the Glory earned in a loss rewarding enough that people are willing to fight even against seemingly insurmountable odds. Base that reward on things like damage taken, damage delt, time spent fighting on point, etc. Set it up so someone who does nothing, or jumps on point to cap and get their minimal score, then hides, camps etc. earns next to nothing in terms of Glory rewarded.
Set up your daily tasks based on Glory gained. Instead of "play 4 PvP matches" for a daily, make it "earn 2000 Glory in PvP matches". Now you have a system that rewards you for participating in a match, and does not reward you if you camp/hide or otherwise refuse to participate.
Also, be very careful about suggesting activity leading to glory rewards. DCs already get little personal glory, since there is no stat for healing or buffing/debuffing.
This is our current belief as well. It can feel punishing to sit though a match you clearly can't win or feel as though the rewards are not worth the pain of slogging through an upwards battle.
We do not have a definite date or plan to address why people feel this way fully, but we currently feel as though the leaver penalty is pulling its weight to a worthy degree, especially in tandem with the matchmaking.
I completely agree with you sir. Most people I. Here are going to argue because they are the pugs lol. But I would even love to be able to vote kick people in PvP haha. Sick of stupid *** people xD
Have you considered basing the Glory reward on indicators that can demonstrate a participants active participation in a match? Indicators that show participation even in the face of a completely one sided match, so that, instead of punishing players for leaving, you give them a reason to participate? If they get no reward for camping, and if their reward is based on their participation, with the overall amount based on the level of those indicators, then you might actually encourage people to play, even when they feel like their chances to win are minimal or non existent.
The end result would be a system where leaving serves no benefit, and the best way to earn rewards is to queue up and fight, regardless of the outcome. I think that should be the end goal, and would leave everyone feeling better about PvP in general, even when they get their butts handed to them in a match.
I can tell you why people feel this way, its because there is NO benefit to fighting and losing. If you have a team that just flat out rolls over another team, you will STILL get leavers and or AFKers in spawn because they only have two choices:
1) Fight or 2) AFK/Sit in spawn.
If they KNOW they are going to lose, or even just THINK they are going to lose, why would they spend MORE time in a match fighting when they get no rewards for doing so when they can afk in spawn and make the match go by much faster to que again and hopefully get a better game and possibly glory next time...
The issue becomes, make losing profitable then bots can come in and farm, if you dont make losing profitable then people sit in spawn to make games go by faster.
Ontop of all of this Panderus, is the fact that while elo works with PUG vs PUG games, it wont help even rated elo players in a PUG versus premade where players can communicate. When a PUG sees a premade team, often they will not play just because odds are its not worth the time.
Ontop of all of that, a 3 capped match already takes in the range of 15 minutes so they arent really losing much to just afk out, take the leaver penalty and do something else (like watch tv) until its gone. Spend time trying to fight, extend the match out, get no glory or afk out, take the leaver penalty, or sit in spawn and either not play for 30 minutes or save yourself time before you que again.
If you want people to not leave games here is whats needed:
1) Rework of the "individual score" system, where players are not and can not be awarded for "trading caps" but for actual gameplay and team contribution. Several suggestions have been made about this, I know I have detailed out several. My favorite one so far is a player is only awarded individual score based on them capping a node and the team getting a point. Or for every 10 points the team gets the player gets 100. Alot of options.
2) Give glory to players based on their individual contributions to teams games regardless of win or loss. A win just nets you a "bonus" of glory. This removes the benefit of AFK since even if you play to extend the match you can get SOME glory for playing.
3) Remove Contesting from the game, if a team owns the node it ticks, it either ticks for team A or team B. This shortens the duration of games and also enables not as good of teams to get more team points. What I have noticed from alot of pvp is that the most effective strategies are taking someone who can sit and "contest" the node removing point gain from the enemy team (such is the perma TR build or the Sent GWf build). If you remove contesting, you cant just send 1 person to "backcap" you have to send a team to take the node and then can maybe have 1 person "hold" it.
This would gives PUGs more advantage in getting SOME points since a well geared player cannot negate points for the team by just standing on it. They should have to kill and capture to be effective not just "stalemate"
All of these factors gives players incentive to play regardless of win/loss and avoids the BOTs that could potentially farm glory. It also awards good players more glory than bad players so people cant mootch off others in games.
There's almost no point playing a DC in pvp now since it's blatantly obvious the devs don't have a clue how pvp works in their own game, I've said this before and it was hilarious how many people rushed to try to claim I was wrong despite the all the evidence proving it. Might as well just ban the DC class from pvp.
post-patch 25 out of 25 matches nobody has left yet, and so far, 0 ppl have afk'd in campfire.
excellent patch, working as intended
been pvping like mad on my CW though.
thanks for playing, better luck next time.
I have had several afkers/leavers in games. Not only that, but I played one game where a teammate left, it was 4v5 and we still almost won, and since we lost, we got almost nothing for the 40+ minute game we played. Not only that, but the "score" favored the bad players who would zerg nodes, then leave and give up the node because the already got their +300 points for the cap and would rush off to the next one to get another 300 points.
I have played ALOT more full games than pre patch, so its not a BAD system, but it doesnt solve the true issue. Its more of a "band aid" for the problem not the solution, and I do fear that given time, if the true problem isnt addressed less and less people will want to pvp.
I really think my 3 suggestions would really help pvp ALOT. Especially removing contesting nodes. That drags the game on FOREVER and its honestly just a lame way to pvp (the best strategy is to stalemate a guy on a node?). I overall think the changes are a step in the right direction, but there is still ALOT that is needed.
I would think spawn AFK will have fully replaced the leavers problem at some point in the future. Because it makes sense. Good to hear you're having the problem on your agenda.
To make it simple, PvP dailies (rinx and lord) should have the ADs removed from them leaving only Glory and Coin. Then make all glory items only salvageable for glory. This way you remove any reason for players to try and farm PvP for ADs. Which IMO (though I could be wrong) would mean only players who want to PvP will PvP.
Would it lower the amount of playes doing PvP? Definitely yes. No farmers = less players
Would it make queue time longer? Possibly. Again, less players since you are losing the farmers and daily players.
Would it make matches more fun? Yes, a full 5v5 match, win or lose is still more fun then 3v5 matches even when Im on the winning side.
Im a casual PvPer at best and even though I do it mainly for the AD rewards I still got my PvP set and artifact. If they remove the AD rewards from PvP I can say that I will definitely be PvPing far less but I wouldn't stop completely as it is something different to do when you get tired of grinding PvE. But then again, if I know im not going to end up fighting a lopsided battle or sitting at the campfire do to leavers I might actually enjoy PvP enough to do it more often....maybe even try to get better at it lol.
You're not wrong in seeing a problem but the solution isn't a good one. There are players such as myself that really only want to pvp. I grind out some pve content, which is unavoidable, but would like to keep it at a minimum.
As long as we see PvP as some sort of add-on to the game then it'll be treated as such. No one forces the dungeon runners to pvp if they don't want to and conversely, I think it's time PvP'ers be given the same treatment. ETA: In terms of earning gear and various currencies.
But you are right, there is an incentive for non hardcore pvp-ers to queue up for pvp for the AD. I'm not convinced that is really a problem, since IN THEORY the ranking system ought to eventually have those less ambitious folks paired up with each other at the bottom.
Agreed, the whole penalty system is just pointless, they need to change the glory gains so that longer more even matches provide the best glory gain. Additionally changing "play 4 (or win 2) matches" to "make 2000 glory today" sounds like a much fairer way. I think combining these two will give people an incentive to actually play the match and prolong matches rather than stand at the campfire to get it over with as quickly as possible.
ad 4 For sticking out the whole session they should, based on their point score or at least the team score.
Far be it from me to ever defend Crytic, but I think the Panda is right on the money with this one.
The leaver penalty has improved the state of matches noticably, and ELO has made them less one-sided. There is still a situation, when playing a character whose ELO hasn't been established yet, where you're grouped with such total prats (all turtling the back point only while screaming abuse at each other) that you probably would rather take a 30 minute break than enjoy the pleasure of their company. That's fine, them's the breaks, and those sorts of people will fall away to an extent, as you get your rating on that character.
All of this stuff will take time to settle down- partly while ELO gets shaken out, and partly while a cultural change filters through the skulls of our more.. obtuse bredren. The screamy tweens that tend to represent the lowest common denominator flocking to PvP will get the point eventually, and attempt to play and behave better- I hope. In either case, making any changes, especially drastic changes, while everything is finding its level would just make things worse.
(Stolen from here)