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GF - The Best front line class of this game (learn how to play it)
damanhur89
Member Posts: 108 Bounty Hunter
Dear NWN Players,
My in-game name is Damanhur@damanhur89, and I am currently member of the Italian guild Dark Illusion. For many months I read threats where players argued about the uselessness of the GF class; and, some players also suggested to eliminate the GF class from the game. Some of you provided enough good evidence to support your main ideas, and I hope that the Developers will make some changes to improve the characteristics of this class. However, many of you just wrote things that had no sense, like: "combat animations are too long", "cannot use my daily when I use the shield", and "my GF companion can collect aggro better than I do". Seriously, these are not enough good proofs to criticize this class. In reality, my argument is that many players do not know how to use their own GFs. In particular, many players do not know what are the best builds for GFs; they do not know what are the most useful talents, encounter, boons, and their best combinations. Here, I am probably providing with some of the best tips to rethink your GF and get the best out of this fantastic front line class.
First of all you should carefully think about what type of GF you would like to build. Do you prefer a high damage dealer, or an indestructible GF? Think carefully because after the release of module 2 (Valindra Shadowmantle) I personally discourage you to look for a hybrid class, like the one proposed by Envy. In other words you really should specialize your GF in specific talent, encounters, and boons. Therefore, start picking up the most suitable race for your build. For instance, Tieflings, and Half Orcs, make of excellent DPS builds because of their own racial talents. While Haflings, and Dwarves are extremely good for tanky builds. Humans are a viable race for all types of builds, still.
Then, you would like to roll your dices. This part is very interesting and intriguing, because If you decided to build a high damage (DPS) GF, then you would like to maximize STR>CON>DEX. For example, roll your dices so that when you get to level 60 you have at least 24 Strength, 22 Constitution, 14 Dexterity. In this way, you will get the highest damage, and moderate chances to survive both in PvE and PvP. I am not going to hide you the fact that you will be "moderately" easy to kill until you achieve LV60, but with the right gear, and focus on specific stats, you are going to make all rogues and most of the GWFs jealous of the high damage that you can deal. Furthermore, there are some stats in this build that will make you really hard to kill.
On the other hand, if you decided to build an impenetrable bastion, you really have no other choice than focus on CON>DEX>STR. In details, I suggest you to go for LV60 statistics like 26 Constitution, 21 Dexterity, 18 Strength. You will have huge amount of Hit Points (HP), very high Deflection rate, and average damage if you choose for the Conqueror path (highly recommended). From the beginning of the game, you are hardly going to see you hit points below 50%, and when you will achieve LV60 you will be extremely hard to kill. Again, there is specific equipment, talents, and boons that will help you to improve the overall experience.
Now, if you desire to know more about one of these two builds, you better ask me, and I will be glad to share with you all the information i have. You will thank me, and you will like to play the GF class.
Thank you for your attention, I hope to see some players writing comments
My in-game name is Damanhur@damanhur89, and I am currently member of the Italian guild Dark Illusion. For many months I read threats where players argued about the uselessness of the GF class; and, some players also suggested to eliminate the GF class from the game. Some of you provided enough good evidence to support your main ideas, and I hope that the Developers will make some changes to improve the characteristics of this class. However, many of you just wrote things that had no sense, like: "combat animations are too long", "cannot use my daily when I use the shield", and "my GF companion can collect aggro better than I do". Seriously, these are not enough good proofs to criticize this class. In reality, my argument is that many players do not know how to use their own GFs. In particular, many players do not know what are the best builds for GFs; they do not know what are the most useful talents, encounter, boons, and their best combinations. Here, I am probably providing with some of the best tips to rethink your GF and get the best out of this fantastic front line class.
First of all you should carefully think about what type of GF you would like to build. Do you prefer a high damage dealer, or an indestructible GF? Think carefully because after the release of module 2 (Valindra Shadowmantle) I personally discourage you to look for a hybrid class, like the one proposed by Envy. In other words you really should specialize your GF in specific talent, encounters, and boons. Therefore, start picking up the most suitable race for your build. For instance, Tieflings, and Half Orcs, make of excellent DPS builds because of their own racial talents. While Haflings, and Dwarves are extremely good for tanky builds. Humans are a viable race for all types of builds, still.
Then, you would like to roll your dices. This part is very interesting and intriguing, because If you decided to build a high damage (DPS) GF, then you would like to maximize STR>CON>DEX. For example, roll your dices so that when you get to level 60 you have at least 24 Strength, 22 Constitution, 14 Dexterity. In this way, you will get the highest damage, and moderate chances to survive both in PvE and PvP. I am not going to hide you the fact that you will be "moderately" easy to kill until you achieve LV60, but with the right gear, and focus on specific stats, you are going to make all rogues and most of the GWFs jealous of the high damage that you can deal. Furthermore, there are some stats in this build that will make you really hard to kill.
On the other hand, if you decided to build an impenetrable bastion, you really have no other choice than focus on CON>DEX>STR. In details, I suggest you to go for LV60 statistics like 26 Constitution, 21 Dexterity, 18 Strength. You will have huge amount of Hit Points (HP), very high Deflection rate, and average damage if you choose for the Conqueror path (highly recommended). From the beginning of the game, you are hardly going to see you hit points below 50%, and when you will achieve LV60 you will be extremely hard to kill. Again, there is specific equipment, talents, and boons that will help you to improve the overall experience.
Now, if you desire to know more about one of these two builds, you better ask me, and I will be glad to share with you all the information i have. You will thank me, and you will like to play the GF class.
Thank you for your attention, I hope to see some players writing comments
Post edited by damanhur89 on
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Comments
I personally see little gf videos showing the capabilities of the class in pve.
Hi Zacazu, I'd love to do that but my connection is a bit slow, and uploading a video might require me a full day. I will do better than a video for you, though. If you are interested, we should have a run together, so that you can see my current build, and you can have a look to my play style. You have my contact, so invite me for a run whenever you are free, and you see me online
It has a lightweight program called Bandicam or something. believe, also my internet is not very good.
the rest you edit. upload a five minute video on youtube are very light.
You don't think "combat animations are too slow" is not a good enough reason to criticise the class? During the CTA Orc Assault my SF procced so many times because I could not get my VM off to be immune to the Eye of Gruumsh constant knockdown chains. I would press it, it would animate and make the war cry and buumph I was knocked down, after another failed attempt, I go for Fighters Recovery because I'm nearly dead and the same thing happens - animation is too slow and I get interrupted. I put my shield up - the knockdown goes through it over 50% of the time despite having a full block meter and facing the Gruumsh. Time to run. Oh I can't because my class is so slow and I can't get out of the red circle, or am just outside it and get knocked down anyway (probably a game issue not a glass issue, but every other class can get far enough away so it doesn't matter). I end up having to cast VM before I get to the mob which wastes the dmg.
As for many GF's not knowing the best build for their class, even with a perfect build ANY class can do what a GF can do and better, and you can't reroll your original stats so you could be limited already if you started your character with the wrong ones (it doesn't even tell you what the attributes do in character generation, just what is primary/secondary!!!).
The only reason people want us is for kiting and that's so they don't have to do the rotten job themselves, and because they are useful elsewhere. I did not choose GF to run round in circles but was told in FH I could not contribute any other way. In PUG dungeons I get told I should tank the boss or get told I should kite adds, and then they moan if I lose aggro because they are using AOE.
I got called useless in TOS because I was last in the paingiver (2 cws/2 gwf and they weren't even high specced). I argued back by saying look at who has taken the most damage - me. Yes, because you are useless, no because if I wasn't here your squishy CW would have took a large portion of that and you would be dead.
So even if GF's are useful, lets say by buffing everyone for example, they don't get credit for it and still look useless. Whereas DC's can finish last and everyone expects them too because they healed them.
PVP? hmm I got stuck with 2 CW's and 2HR's. I have to fight all 5 of their party on the base as I have NO ranged attacks and pathetic AOE whilst mine all stand back in safety. I get killed, by the time I have respawned and got back to the contesting node, my team (if they are any good) have taken the base and I get ZERO points. Or I am almost killing a GWF (they must have been bad) and they run off. I have no means of catching them so they just go off get the potion come back and try and kill me again.
I feel so bad now because after 7 months of grinding to get where I am, I cannot compete against/with the elite classes. The changes to GF in the pvp patch are not going to change this since they are just not enough (even though they make us better). They will never give us any decent buffs because they are frightened of overpowering us like they did with the GWF. In fact they've actually nerfed some things. Example frontline now does less damage (yes it now has 5 target cap instead of 3), but in pvp for example this will be less effective (chances of frontlining 5 players is remote) so in total it will do less damage. And prones are less. I will now need to feat reinforced surge at the expense of what cruel cut style?
A level 35 HR beat me in Monsters on Ice during the Winter Festival. A level 38 TR dealt more damage than me in the CTA: Orc Assault. Am I supposed to feel good about my class? Everyone is complaining for a reason.
Even in solo content my character is subpar. Example My 10k ungeared TR (which leveled up through professions and invocations) can kill the boss in Phantasmal Fortess before the second one spawns. My GF has to go through all of them. Sure it's not difficult, but it goes to show - why bother being/having a GF when other classes can do it better.
Yes I am having a moan, but this is how bad I feel. I could just roll another class, sure and waste all my 3 purple artifacts, 5 companions, my gear, etc. to be what - another CW and still unwanted because there are millions of them and they will all be better geared.
mark->knights chalange-> Vilian manance-> lunging strike->bull charge.
You suppose to be experienced... GF is not for dpsing. Hes moderate in that when fully speced. GF is for controlling battlefield. Forget about paingiver and learn to play properly. Buff party with knights captain, go full hp and regen (40k hp 2,7k regen on my gf). On dungeons use:
Class feats: Shield Talent+enhanced mark
Daily: Supremancy of steal + Fighters recovery (first for generating agro, secont for hard scenarios)
Encounters: Frontline surge + Enforce threat + iron warrior (first one for controling unagroed mobs and ap generation, rest shield regeneration)
At-wills: Cleave, Threatening rush
Enchants: Weapon plague fire or lightning for agro generation; Armor Brightwine for agro generation
I rearly go down having all mobs and boss on me, when that happens my guildmates take screanshots because it so rare...
Im conqueror with 10 feats in protector (5% deflect 2,5% DR) I can go def or i can go offence. I have multiple sets and many item setups for every ocasion.
Steel and Magic
In my guild there are CWs with 16K, GWFs 16K, DCs 15K, and they are all very experienced and extremely good players. When they go in dungeon, they do not leave me behind, but I am one of the first players in the guild to be asked to join groups, and there are several reasons for this fact. First, I wear a full Knight Captain set, so my teammates power/damage rockets up all the time I am with them. Second, I can smartly collect aggro by marking enemies and doing high DPS on them. At last, but not least important, I am always the first member of the party who jumps into the battle, collecting enemies' aggro even before CWs or GWFs can attack the enemy; in this case, however, you have to play with a team who KNOWS that your GF HAVE TO BE the FRONT LINE WARRIOR. For instance, I often played with pug CWs who used to play like GFs, jumping in the middle of the enemies' area, using singularity and getting killed.
Then, about the animations, I really liked the detailed example you gave me, though I flt you portrayed a catastrophic (melodramatic) scenario. Therefore, I am still convinced that GF's animations are not too slow when compared with the animations of other classes. Let me provide you some other examples. In PvE, all that matter for me is timing with the other classes' encounter powers. Animations might be a bit longer than other classes, but this fact does not decrease my ability as a "fast moving" GF on the battlefiled. You make clear reference about specific dungeon, like SP, TOS, and FH. If you have a 14+K team, do CWs still need to push enemies out of the arena? Trust me, the answer is NO. Let's say you have in your team a GF conqueror(yourself), 1DC, 1CW, 1 GWF, 1 Ranger. Simple tactic, everyone on boss, except for GF and CW. GF collects aggro everywhere in the middle of the arena, CW spam high control damage to everyone (Chill strike on TAB, Steal time, Avalanche, conduit of ice). This way you do not need to push anymore enemies off the arena, YOU AGGRO THEM and your CW make them DISAPPEAR (kill). maximum 7-10 minutes the boss is dead.
About TOS, you have been called useless by 4 players. Fine, no problem. Next time they can go without you or any other GF, then they will use potions and kits because you are not there taking/tanking the damage they suffer. Here again, I really feel you have been unlucky to play with mindless players.
Finally, about FH you really should not feel like kiting is something bad. "People just want me to kite" is not an argument, because if you are not there kiting adds for them, they would never finish the dungeon. GF is a vital class in this dungeon, and I am sorry to see that you think that you do not get credit for your well done job. The point here is also that GF do not need to get credit for their job, we just do OUR job because without us dungeons would be harder to finish. Our class maybe could be considered useless because we do not make the damage of CW or GWF, but can CWs and GWF collect aggro, and keep it without the use of potions? About these points, I will post a vido on youtube in the near future so that I can give you some "material evidence".
In PvP, GFs animations are not much slower than other classes animations. For instance, GFs can block CWs Icy knife and singularity just hearing the sounds of the CWs dailies (tin-tin-tin). And, we can easily block any rogue attack (the only rogues who can kill us have to be well equipped perma-strealth).
Your PvP "story" made me smile because I imagined you fighting against 5 othe players. Let me ask you, why did you fight 5 players alone? I mean, PvP might be all about burst for classes like CW and GWF, but for GFs and TR the gameplay has to be more reasoned. If you are a 19K DPS Conqueror your role should be to give the final blow to any other PvP enemy player. This means that you have to stay within your group, not alone while your teammates catch the points.
I hope you can understand my points of view, respect them too. You should not get convinced by my arguments, but i hope that I gave you some material on which you can think about. If you like to see my play style, my specs, and have fun together, you can invite me anytime you see me online.
One more thing. Dungeons are not created to be run on solo. Sure, other classes can, maybe. But, where is the fun to play alone?
I would say a workable approach to getting the most out of a GF currently is the buffbot method. Even without a KC set (though you should definitely work on getting one), taking into the fray will improve everyone's day (++speed and AP gain? Yay), marking everything you can provides massive, widespread damage increase for everyone else, taking a weapon enchant that lowers enemy defense (terrors are relatively cheap), all these are helpful.
Also, as soon as you get aggro, move so everyone else gets combat advantage.
Don't try and top any chart but "damage taken" (and maybe field medic if you don't have a DC in the team), but just work at making the rest of your team better.
Evalira: mobility is definitely an issue, since blocking is so 'picky' about what it applies to. You're better off using threatening rush and/or lunging strike to move around, so if you see that red circle appear, don't block: quickly use threatening rush/lunging to skoosh over to a nearby target. Used frequently, threatening rush is amazing at staying mobile AND marking just about everything, ever. And take SoS instead of VM (so that even if they still hit you with unblockable cheapshots, they pay for it).
EDIT: wow, ninja'd. Twice. Maybe GFs ain't so slow, eh?
I started to get feedback that they never played with better gf from my guild and pugs, and this is the way you should go.
ps. best agro generator is marking target and agrovating stab (attack with shields up). 2 stabs and target is on u.
Steel and Magic
My cw has 27,353 hp, 2487 def, 1290 deflect, 1704 regen, 1190 lifesteal, 48.4% AP generation and 53.2% recharge speed. Not only can I jump in the middle of an enemies' area, use singularity, and have enough hp to stand still to cast more things to blow them into smittereens and get most if not all of my hp back from lifesteal, I can solo most rooms in CN without using a single potion or using tab dodge. Let's see your GF survive anywhere near what my CW can without a CW in the party constantly chain-stunning mobs to save your butt.
This.
LOL It is legit that CW can do things like that.
The GF is just broken, you can be hella good at it and in the end of the day other class are just better, sad truth but it would remain like this regardless the upcoming change of GF buffs. The only 2 ways GF would be actually consider GOOD is that DEV somehow decide to introduce some kind of way to boost GF's movement, something similar to GWF's sprint. Or DEV would need to massively boost up the Guard Meter: Double the Guard Health and completely fix the problem that it breaks in sec when receive multiple small hits.
Until any of the above happen, CW and GWF would remain God tier in PVE. PVP wise the next patch which introduced tenacity helps GF a lot but also has determined that GF will be A TANK class in PVP. Not gonna comment too much at this stage, everything is still debatable and need more testing. One thing is certain though I hardly see GF to become the new FOTM like where GWF is at PVP right now.
I really don't think he was talking about you. You being able to facetank anything in the game is commendable, but does not necessarily imply that all CWs can facetank anything in the game. Because an awful lot can't.
Please don't turn this into a "MY CW IS BETTER THAN UR GF" thread, because the answer will always be "well of course it is, duh."
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Dear Veramis, you have very good defensive stats, and lifesteal really prolong your life time. I never met you, so I was definitively not talking about you, do not feel personally offended, my statement was more of a generalization. Please, stay in this threat if you want to talk about the GF. Here I am arguing about the fact that many players online really negatively speak about the GF, some of them proposed to ELIMINATE this class from the game, when it could be possibly buffed by the developers - and many other non GF players believe that the GF is a useless class because it has less damage than good CWs and GWFs, and it does not kill fast in single target like a good TR. What I am arguing is that even though the GF APPEARS to be a useless class, It is actually important in a 5-members party. Feel free to answer my question, would a good CW be able to cast its spells with aggro on him (imagine 5-10 mobs on your CW)? If yes, would a GF make your job easier if he can collect aggro for you?
Thank you for post, I hope you can come up with some nice comment in the future.
Most CW's are built for high dps, because that's what works in most pve groups even at end game. The only exception is if you are doing a DCless team, or during certain fights such as dracolich or valindra. If a group wanted survivability, they don't get a GF, they put on defensive jewelry that altogether would cost <100K AD and give similar defensive stats to what my cw has.
We've reached the point where people have so much extra stat points from artifacts and boons and pets, many of them automatically defensive stats such as certain boons and artifact stats, that people are commonly doing end game dungeons without even a DC. If you don't need a DC, what do you need a GF for?
Suurely mobility is not a strong charateristic of the GF. As you pointed out, actually, lunging strike and threatening rush make this class surely more "mobile" on the battlefield. Therefore, why many players still complain abut GF mobilty? I would like to remember everyone that CWs can use SHIFT only 3 times, and clerics 2 times. So these classes are not very mobile either. Please GF players, ask a cleric or a cw how often they can use shift, they will thell you the same exact thing that "their classes are not very mobile".
The problem is, cw's and gwf's are so overpowered there is almost no need for hr, gf, or tr. Before mod 2, gf's were maybe a bit preferable to gwf, after mod 2, cryptic accidentally almost doubled GWF damage output by letting an elementary school kid write the formula for the modified deep gash feat, and also fixed arpen bugs on cw, and giving all classes 2-6k more gs through boons+active bonuses+artifacts making them do a lot more damage and survive a lot better in mod 2.
My CW casts spells all the time with 20+ mobs on him, and to be honest, my job at doing damage and controlling mobs, and often my own survival, becomes easier when my teammates are dead because then I can use the movements of mobs towards me to gather them into a small spot and sudden storm them whenever I need to heal. A single CW sudden storm can heal the CW for 10-25K hp, and with 6s cooldown I can spam it as often as potions. Add in the fact that oppressive force is basically damage immunity from affected mobs for ~7-8 seconds with my 60% control bonus, and the bajillion other methods a cw has to make mobs stop attacking for a long time, and I'd have to say cw played right can survive better than even a sentinel gwf who accidentally queued into a dungeon instead of pvp.
I can confirm your thesis Ravenan. Your build, and the way you play it (I can imagine it because I used to have the same build) are awesome, and I am not surprised to read that some other player were enthusiast to play with you. Here, you perfectly get the point of this thread. Nice players who are not GFs know how important is a GF class in a 5 members team. the GF is not a useless class, THE GF IS A CLASS THAT WORKS FOR THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE PARTY HELPING THEM IN MANY WAYS: COLLECTING AGGRO, MAKING SOME NICE DAMAGE (if DPS), and BUFFING THEM.
There is no doubt in my mind that the GF class could/should be improved, and I hope to read VERY REASONED THREADS in the future about what developers should change about this class. However, the proposal to eliminate this class is insane. What other class should do what tanks do?
THIS IS OUR WHOLE POINT UNTIL YOU DECIDED TO TELL US OTHERWISE!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Dear Veramis, if most CWs would use defensive stats jewels to increase chances to survive they would also reduce their own damage. You have to think that you are not playing solo, but with a party made of 5 members. Therefore, the presence in the party of a DC and a GF (BUFFER OF COURSE) are maybe still better than put jewels with defensive stats on your CW. Did you complete some Valindra runs without DC? maybe yes. Did you have to use a lot of potions? Possibly. If you had a tank taking away aggro from your CW, could you cast better your spells? I believe so.
And with lifesteal, the utility a DC brings (haelz plz!) is far less useful than bringing...another CW. Not least because the more control you have, the less you get hit anyway.
Defensive CWs may have marginally lower damage output than full-on offensive ones, but they've got identical controlling power, and four defensive CWs will put out a ton more damage than two CWs, a healbot DC and a tank.
GFs are utterly redundant for endgame content, and this is what people would like remedied.
I'm not saying a GF is useless, nobody is saying that, but they're...less useful than simply taking another CW. Or GWF.
Hence, when I find a party happy to take my poor <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tank, I do my best to be as useful to the party as possible, because I'm going to contribute a lot more by buffing everyone else than I am by trying to deal MAD DEEPS.
Dear incomprehensible-name user, you have commented twice out of topic. First, here we talk about GF, not your CW. Second, no one in this thread (not even me) said that the GF does not need improvements. We all claimed that improvements are needed. SO, Did you read the title of the Thread? If you are able to use your CW as a self-regenerative high DPS GWF who collects aggro as a GF.. go and play alone! I did not ask you to join this conversation, and you really do not need to participate here, right? Have fun in your solo runs, I wish you a good game.
Offensive stats have very high diminishing returns, 2500 power would result in about 10% more dps. Once you cap armor pen at 20-24%, you don't need more. Once you have 1500-2000 critical strike on cw, you don't want any more due to diminishing return and the ability to proc EoTS with good chance with steal time. Recovery has high diminishing return after 3500-4000. Keep in mind a lot of mod 2 stat boosts are automatically defensive stats. IE 250 regen/250 lifesteal boon, rampaging madness 300 regen+300 lifesteal which has very high uptime for CW, defensive, lifesteal, and regen on artifacts.
DC has the best buffs and debuffs in the game. Just consider a few:
1. Hallowed ground daily, 40% additive damage reduction to your existing damage reduction, 20% damage boost in a huge area, for ~18 seconds, and with high AP gain build can have 80-90% uptime.
2. Divine divine glow, 15% dmg taken debuff on mob, 20% dmg buff on teammates inside the aoe.
3. High prophet, 20-30% dmg taken debuff on single mob as long as it is frequently refreshed by at-wills, ~10% on mobs affected by sunburst aoe.
Knight captain is inferior to any one of these, and so is gf 8% damage taken from mark and gf 10% damage taken from tide of iron. Also the dc has other ridiculous game breaking buffs and debuffs that put anything gf has to offer to the team to shame except maybe into the fray, but even that encounter I would say is not that great and definitely not enough to make gf's worth taking in end game dungeons.
I am not bashing gf's just for bashing gf's, but because this game has such serious balance issues it's not even worth considering gf as being suitable for end game, and any suggestion that it is needs to be shot down, and everyone should be told to steer away from gf until ancient grand knight's shield goes from the current 95k to less than salvage value. This is coming from someone who has spent many millions of AD on his GF, and loves to play GF more than any other class in the game, but had to shelve GF in mod 2 because it was so ridiculous. Only by stating things as it is is there any possibility of this class being in a meaningful way balanced with cw and gwf, or better yet, they should give gf's a new encounter that when pressed will allow them to respec into another class.
Hi Morsitans, I see your point of view, and I agree with it mostly. However, go to the barracks and read the titles of the several threads. As I pointed out, for over 6 months there are threads that argue about the USELESSNESS of the GF class. You say that nobody talk about the GF in this way?
Furthermore, following the logic of.... tanks is "less useful", lets take another CW or GWF, means that I should play with full parties made only of CWs and GWFs. Is this what you suggest?
Nice argument at the beginning.
Just this morning I did a 4 cw and 1 gwf cn 4/4 run, and they were not very well-equipped, about 13-14k gs players with normal vorpal/terror, and a lot of times the mobs didn't hit anyone after the initial 3 seconds of starting combat from the 4 simultaneous steal times and frontline surge spam and would almost always be all dead by the time the mobs fell down from sing and shard went off. The adds at draco were similarly very quickly stunned and killed. I still prefer 1-2 dc's in cn/vt/mc because their damage taken debuffs get crazy against single target.