ok sorry about being a little to mean but why play a class that dose not fit your playstyle if you want a fully ranged class play CW HR is a hybrid style class and the sooner people understand this the better.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Currently I cannot survive without mixing range and melee and not as a "Oh sh--! I need to swap for a finishing blow." but a very active swap with lots of kiting.
I don't mind if somebody wishes to play a HR with major melee focus and I wouldn't scream to loudly if the class was melee only (although I doubt I'd play it then), but don't try to tell me you're offering a class with potential to play both and then make focusing on one particular style a non-viable option.
This is exactly what I've been getting at.
They gave us a ranged feat tree for a reason didn't they?
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
lovely, maybe people should try and read posts not skimming, the mods post were never about the lack of or op of hunter dmg/survivability, strictly about people demanding hunter ranger be turned into a pure ranged or melee dream.
This is exactly what I've been getting at.
They gave us a ranged feat tree for a reason didn't they?
Yes and lets be honest, the archery tree is amazing!
But sadly even with this heavy dps oriented feat tree we hit like a wet noodle with ALL our encounters.
I have been waiting since beta for Ranger's to come out. So when Module 2 was announced and put on Test Server I gleefully hopped on and started a Hunter Ranger. Yes I was a bit disappointed it wasn't a Beast Master ranger but I figured I could just use a wolf or some other animal companion and be happy. I have to say it was very very fun to level them up till 30 but then the nerfs came in and BAM, there goes the fun. Ranger Hunters (D&D 4e) are heavy hitting single target striker/controllers with a lot of mobility.
Now I realize this is an MMO and only loosely based on D&D 4e but come on. How can you claim even loosely based D&D classes and so badly miss the mark on such a important foundational characteristic of a class.
I like the ability to switch between ranged an melee but we should not be punished for choosing Ranged over Melee. Which is what has happened since the massive nerfs to ranged skills.
I'm starting to thing all of the developers play either Tricksters or Control Wiz's because any class that might dethrone them from top DPS charts gets nerfed into the ground.
I'm starting to reach the point of just giving up hope of ever getting a decent Ranger class.
So pls explain me, why i should use both when our dmg is based on our distance AWAY from the target?
To make ur statement work we would need feats like ur rangedmg gets increase while u are within 10 feets
of ur target, i dont see anything like that.
Or maybe u are the first person that thinks that 188dmg on a range encounter at lvl 60 is amazing while u are close to ur target.
Right now switching to melee is just a pure dps loss and we ONLY do it to stay alive. This has nothing to do with potential.
I did not take any of the feats that increase damage based on distance, you don't have to either. I find that I am far more effective when I am switching stances VERY OFTEN. Aspect of the Serpent works very well for this, as do many other feats that we have access to. There are just too many mobs that can dictate the range of an encounter for me to focus on feats which increase my damage based on distance (be it long or short).
The Ranger is an extremely survivable class, I use less potions on my HR than I have with any other toon. We have amazing dodge potential if you train yourself to use it effectively. But, the HR truly is an "Advanced" class, it requires far more "fine tuning" and far more practice, to make the most of it.
Once they get around to buffing the over nerfed ranged powers, and buff a few of the less-than-stellar Melee abilites then the HR will be a great addition to the game. Just as long as they do not OVER buff things.
lovely, maybe people should try and read posts not skimming, the mods post were never about the lack of or op of hunter dmg/survivability, strictly about people demanding hunter ranger be turned into a pure ranged or melee dream.
I haven't been skimming posts. I understand that the concept of the HR is to use BOTH, just as the concept of TR is to use stealth, but offering a singular style of play as a potential path brings the automatic assumtion that I can opt out of one style for the majority of the game. This is currently not the case, in fact range is more a fluff aspect as an opener and maybe, if you're really lucky, a closer.
In an attempt to do a side-by-side test of damage, speed, leveling etc., I started a new TR, and a new HR. I transferred a character from the live shard to provide enchantments, runestones, horses, and companions. The TR can access the items in the mail, but the HR can't.
And, quite often, the HR will be running along, long out of combat, with the bow in her left hand, but the bowstring is floating in the air behind her right shoulder.
From what I can see, and from what I've gone through in the last two weeks, I no longer hold out any hope of ever getting a Ranger that I'd enjoy playing.
Take care, all.
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
In an attempt to do a side-by-side test of damage, speed, leveling etc., I started a new TR, and a new HR. I transferred a character from the live shard to provide enchantments, runestones, horses, and companions. The TR can access the items in the mail, but the HR can't.
And, quite often, the HR will be running along, long out of combat, with the bow in her left hand, but the bowstring is floating in the air behind her right shoulder.
From what I can see, and from what I've gone through in the last two weeks, I no longer hold out any hope of ever getting a Ranger that I'd enjoy playing.
Take care, all.
See the bright side! It cant get worse!
Plz dont prove me wrong
In an attempt to do a side-by-side test of damage, speed, leveling etc., I started a new TR, and a new HR. I transferred a character from the live shard to provide enchantments, runestones, horses, and companions. The TR can access the items in the mail, but the HR can't.
And, quite often, the HR will be running along, long out of combat, with the bow in her left hand, but the bowstring is floating in the air behind her right shoulder.
From what I can see, and from what I've gone through in the last two weeks, I no longer hold out any hope of ever getting a Ranger that I'd enjoy playing.
Take care, all.
Sorry warzog but those are minor tweeks that I'm sure can easily be fixed before the HR goes live. It's more an issue how this class is to be played and how players perceive the class when looking at the skill trees.
Again to compare to the TR, we have a stealth focused path and a DPS path with a combo of the two offered as well. HR has a melee path, an archery path and a nature (utility) path. No major focus on swapping and sadly I don't see, in current play, an 80-20% split when focusing on archery.
Just another example.
Take a look at our setbonuses, most of them fit for range based playstyles, like roots/hp regen when dodging and movespeed increase.
That all shows me that its intended to play a ranger mostly on range, with supporting meleebuffs/cc effects.
That WOULD work perfectly well, since our meleebuffs arent gamebreaking good but offer a decent amount of utility.
Our biggest problem is simply our low sustained dmg and the nonexistant burst dmg!
Both is easy to fix and as soon as its done we have a working class!
It's not that hard to make this class working but sadly they make it even worse atm.
Ranged combat before the nerf was the fast, strongest form of attack I'd seen in ANY class, including CW's and TR's (which I have leveled multiple times). It needed a slight nerf in the early levels to balance it, though it did require a massive amount of attention and control to achieve the same result as those other classes.
Melee combat at those same low levels felt incredibly weak and innefficient. As if it was a secondary option. It seemed to need a buff in the early levels to come close to even the output of a DC.
Rangers, by default, are a dual spec, 'do it all' class. They are melee AND ranged, and thus their attention to detail requires both. Players should be ENCOURAGED to do both, and if they sacrifice one or the other (through feat choice, etc), they should notice the weakness. Ranged attacks under Archer paragon path should not make an archer so good he can survive close range without issue. In fact, his close range should be weak. Very weak. The same holds true for melee rangers and distanced attacks. Strengths and weaknesses.
A player who chooses to focus on one style of combat should be superior in that style, I agree. Maybe the issue isn't with the base skills (which they recently nerfed) but the feat bonuses. But as the HR has so much option for versatility, it should obviously weaken them in other styles.
A GWF who plays sentinel with that kind of tank and still has great DPS (i.e. with tene's) is a broken class. An HR who can trash mobs at distance but still remains strong at close range is, also, broken. Range and mobility covers a rangers defenses in that scenario, while deflect and mobility covers it in melee. This should be readily apparent in the class and obvious from the very get go.
And while players should have the option of being good at both, or great at one or another, they should not be great at both.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Sorry warzog but those are minor tweeks that I'm sure can easily be fixed before the HR goes live. It's more an issue how this class is to be played and how players perceive the class when looking at the skill trees.
Again to compare to the TR, we have a stealth focused path and a DPS path with a combo of the two offered as well. HR has a melee path, an archery path and a nature (utility) path. No major focus on swapping and sadly I don't see, in current play, an 80-20% split when focusing on archery.
I spent an hour or so re-reading every post in this thread, and then it hit me:
They nerfed the Ranged skills so that we couldn't play as ranged ONLY Rangers, but to FORCE us to use the Melee skills too.
Then they buffed the melee skills, not enough to make melee only combat possible, but to FORCE us to use the HR in dual-stance mode.
All of our feedback is being used to FORCE us to use the HR in a dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
There will be NO Either/And/Or to it, the HR is being set up for dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
I can't play thay way. I doubt that the melee Ranger types can, either. Or the ranged Rangers, for that matter.
Perhaps I'm seeing it all wrong, but that's how I see it, at this moment.
Edit:
Read my post, post #384 on page 39, then see if you agree.
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
If that's the case warzog I see the HR as a fail. Range can currently be used for 3 shots at the start of an encounter and after using Marauder's Escape you can fire another 2 shots. That's about it for the encounter unless the ME CD clears before the end of combat in order to allow another 2 shots. The shorter range while shifting makes it near impossible to get out of melee range and Forest Walk doesn't hide you from foes previously targeting you to escape to a safer distance.
I spent an hour or so re-reading every post in this thread, and then it hit me:
They nerfed the Ranged skills so that we couldn't play as ranged ONLY Rangers, but to FORCE us to use the Melee skills too.
Then they buffed the melee skills, not enough to make melee only combat possible, but to FORCE us to use the HR in dual-stance mode.
All of our feedback is being used to FORCE us to use the HR in a dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
There will be NO Either/And/Or to it, the HR is being set up for dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
I can't play thay way. I doubt that the melee Ranger types can, either. Or the ranged Rangers, for that matter.
Perhaps I'm seeing it all wrong, but that's how I see it, at this moment.
Edit:
Read my post, post #384 on page 39, then see if you agree.
welcome to the realization even the archer path seem to affect both melee and ranged skills. It is as if ranged for this class is a get out of jail free token to get the upper hand on a target before preparing to jump right back into melee range to deal most the dmg. It seems ranged is the defensive playstyle and melee the offensive. Max rang is 80 yes you being able to obliterate something from a 80 range with out being touched is kinda OP the range is more if you use that 1 class feature. Personally i never unslot ME its just to good for getting out and getting back in. I personally think there trying to find the sweet spot between the two stances personally i am ok with this cause who in there right mind is really gonna use this class in pure melee mode when a ranged mode is possible and optimal. With that said i understand why they nerfed the purly ranged side of this class makes the melee side pointless.
ATM this class needs its encounters and atwills scaled and properly rebalanced then this class would be ok again
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A big problem with bringing ranged combat in a melee oriented game is people believe that 93' is a LONG range, it's merely 31 yards. Most archers can hit that in their sleep. If you want to continue with the low damage being dealt then increase the range. 100 yard kills among bowhunters is not unheard of.
Before the major nerf you could make 1 "medium" kill (Nordic Brute, etc...) with use of encounter powers or max 3 "cannonfodder" kills (Lizardman Darter, etc...) without (exempting the very powerful AoE Split Shot) before you're in melee combat, similar to a TR's Cloud of Steel if it wasn't limited to 8 throws at a shorter range. As for the arguement that while kiting you can use something like Rain of Arrows, which is a range attack, BS. Just because the power uses a bow in order to activate it and drops arrows does not make it a ranged attack, not even if it CAN be fired from range.
EDIT: Also, for additional info, IIRC, Aragorn carried his bow (and made use of it), up til he was ambushed by the Worgs riders in the way to Helm's Deep. After recovering from falling of the ravine, he barely had his pants on (Ok, this part may not match what really happened :rolleyes:).
And just to add to that.. the very archetype of "Ranger", would not exist in D&D, were it not for Tolkien's Rangers of the North
In light of so many one sided complaints, let me try and put things in perspective, much like lobo did.
Like it or not, the HR is meant to stance switch. The feat trees make it so you will want to spend more time in one stance or another, but not avoid switching altogether. The class will be balanced (notice I wrote will) with that in mind. It does not mean one cannot play ranged exclusively, but it will never be on par with other classes in solo play because it is meant to stance dance. With the game design they decided on, it is impossible to deliver what a few are asking here in that range exclusive play be comparable with other classes. If they did that, the class would be extremely OP in the hands of people that stance dance. One needs to keep that in mind when making suggestions.
I also want to say that I have leveled and well equipped one of every class except the DC. I found the ranger no harder or easier to level (except the early levels when he was comparatively much stronger). With every class there were specific fights or moments when my equipment was outdated that I had to try more than once to clear the fight. With every class I was forced to use some powers at some points which were not my favorite, but worked better in certain situations or at my power level. Also note that because of some recent changes and the lack of skirmish on mimic my ranger was usually 2-3 levels below the opposition. I believe that is the case with most people.
Finally, solo play and dungeon play are two very different beasts. I don't know how rangers are comparing to other dps classes in dungeons, but would very much like to if someone has that info. Ultimately, the class will be balanced with dungeons in mind, as it should be. Once one is geared at 60 solo play is trivial on any class anyway.
I believe the ranger does need some buffs, but nothing major. I also believe these buffs are coming. I just think if we provide more impartial feedback there is a better chance the HR releases in a better state, since the end of the year is fast approaching.
mio I can accept not being able to permanently remain in one stance or the other, although it's contrary to the other class TAB features. What I'm complaining about is the inability to focus on range attacks. The range/melee fighting style combo is much better solved with the Whisperknife path of the TR than the HR seeing that everything is relatively close distance wise. I can open with ranged attacks and during combat get 2, maybe 4 more ranged attacks in during the most random of encounters while having to fight the majority of time inside of melee range. Now you want me to swap weapons more when facing dungeon bosses or even solo bosses? Fine. Maybe I need to swap once or twice when facing some sort of hulk in random encounters. I can deal with that (grudgingly). What I'm seeing though is a ranged opener with melee focus. Don't try to plaster that as a ranged option.
I leveled 0-60 with my TR never using TAB, using Dailies less than 100 times, sold ALL of my potions of lesser healing and roughly 50% of my weak healing, I still have regular potions of healing on my belt instead of greater healing and haven't bought a single potion. How? I have a Cleric Disciple companion that isn't realy that well equipt healing me between and somewhat during fights and I do a lot of hit-and-run attacking.
My HR is now level 53 and I've used all of my weak healing potions and have started using my healing potions even though I have a better equipt Cleric Disciple with me. I use a Daily almost every boss encounter and I'm still using my hit-and-run tactics although admitted I'm not TABing between stances.
Finally, solo play and dungeon play are two very different beasts. I don't know how rangers are comparing to other dps classes in dungeons, but would very much like to if someone has that info. Ultimately, the class will be balanced with dungeons in mind, as it should be. Once one is geared at 60 solo play is trivial on any class anyway.
I did one CTA Skirmish soon after the event started with only 1 other HR. I was focused on ranged attacks and ranked 4th in DPS and enemies killed. I forgot I opened the preview server and jumped right into the queue without respecing my HR so I was still rigged with long range single target damage, speak Marauder's Escape/Hindering Shot/Hawkshot with Rapid Fire/Split Shot as At-Wills and Forest Meditation/Disruptive Shot as Dailies.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I don't play melee. I play RANGED. I should NOT be forced to use both. Ranger primary is ranged not melee hence the name Ranger
As for the Hunter part. Even hunters have to shoot things at distance.
. . . . . "Range" from "Ranger" pertains to the stretch of wilderness they wander about in, it has nothing to do with what type of weapon they use. Despite "Ranger" being a noun, it is derived from an adjective of roaming the ranges. As a DM and Player of PnP D&D for many years, I can safely say that not all rangers user bows exclusively and not all rangers use melee weapons exclusively. This is why we have sub-classes and builds in the many varies supplements and core rule-books, to allow such things. The Hunter Ranger is not an "Archer Ranger" nor it it is a "Fighter Ranger." It is its own subclass of the Ranger.
. . . . . Never-the-less, hopefully at some point, we'll get an Archer Ranger subclass just like there are two types of fighters now.
thus the word HUNTER ranger... hunters do use ranged weapons... what hunter do you know of that wonders through the woods with a knife trying to kill a deer with it? can you name hunters that hunt with swords and knives? what hunter do you know of that has a bow uses a knife to kill its prey ignoring its bow completely? what other game in fact has a hunter that doesn't use a bow?
in the true keeping with all D&D games including the most recent a ranger should be able to be built either way... ranged or melee. currently a range build still has melee more powerful even with the feats and boost to all ranged attacks... which is stupid.
. . . . . Just because the word Hunter is used doesn't mean they are hunding wildlife game. They could be hunting their favored enemies, like goblins, trolls, kobolds or even dragons. Depending on the creature or thing being hunted, varied weapons will be necessary.
. . . . . The Hunter Ranger in Neverwiter is actually keeping with D&D for as I said, there are varied builds and subclasses in the many supplements and rule-books. The Hunter Ranger is Neverwinter's version of such a subclass or build.
I did one CTA Skirmish soon after the event started with only 1 other HR. I was focused on ranged attacks and ranked 4th in DPS and enemies killed. I forgot I opened the preview server and jumped right into the queue without respecing my HR so I was still rigged with long range single target damage, speak Marauder's Escape/Hindering Shot/Hawkshot with Rapid Fire/Split Shot as At-Wills and Forest Meditation/Disruptive Shot as Dailies.
That is good to know. Considering you were set up for single target and that other classes on the preview are probably very well geared, it doesn't look too bad. I really wish dummies had an 'x' function that we could reset to measure damage, at least in the trade of blades.
I perfectly understand your points. The best I can do is relay my experiences. The ranger has so many options that we all still have a lot to learn.
First off, I also went through a ton of potions, and still do at 60. The defenses are just too weak for a melee ranger. I always had around 500 regeneration while leveling up, and still needed pots. I also used many pots leveling the open beta gwf and the rogue in the 50s, the cw and gf not nearly as much.
I found that my biggest trouble was against a higher number of mobs. As such I always opened with 2 split shots, which got rid of basic adds. This was pre nerf, now it takes 3, which I don't have time to fire, so I do 2 and switch stance to finish off the weaklings. Against bosses it was the easiest part. With so many shifts you can avoid most damage. My toughest times were when facing 2-3 multi life-bar opponents or when a boss spawned adds mid battle. My way to get through that was forest ghost to open some distance and basically reset my rotation. Without forest ghost it would not have worked, and I agree it should not be so. Then again dailies are meant to be life savers. The boss battle in "root of the problem" is still a challenge to me, if I am not on my game I die.
Note that I leveled melee, which really only starts making a difference past 40. Still, I was much more effective from range. In melee its pot fest. I used split the sky and rain of arrows to complement my damage constantly, usually either one or the other, on rotation, for firing both takes too long. I found rain of arrows was the only skill that delivered strong damage vs elites. I either fired it on casters or in front of me vs melee, the latter usually followed by concussive shot to spare me some beating. Going pure melee vs an elite is still unviable at 60 with my blue gear without pots.
From 48 to 60 I paired on and off with a ranged ranger. The difference in ranged damage was visible. She could one shot regular adds on a crit, and she crit often. I imagine post nerf that went to 2 shots. She also never reported problems when leveling alone, though this was pre-nerf. when we were together it was, of course, a breeze. She at one point switched aimed shot in for rapid shot, and opened on the strong mob instead of getting rid of the adds first. It worked well paired up, not sure when she soloed.
I did try boar charge charge for some 10 levels, and like it a lot, but ultimately rain of arrows lets me get through elites faster.
That was my experience. I do feel encounters need to be buffed a bit. In some cases in the time it takes for the animation to fire one can do more damage spamming at-wills. On one hand I understand they cannot do too much damage because we can potentially have 6 encounters, but on the other hand the CDs are so long that in a minute you get to fire slightly more encounters than, say, a cw. They'll have to balance that fine line. Again, the class does still need balancing, I am just trying to be realistic about it.
Either way as it stands, the class is pretty much useless as we are being forced into a certain play style in order to just try and survive. It should be our choice how we play the class just like the other classes. If we choose ranged only, we die. We choose melee only, we die. We choose dual, we barely survive. How is that fair.
My DC i can play without using my healing on myself or companion and have no problems. My TR I can play without using stealth and have no problems. My GF I can play without using shield and have no problems. I can play my CW without using the push skill and have no problems. GWF I haven't really played yet. HR has to use stance switch in order to just survive, barely.
. . . . . "Range" from "Ranger" pertains to the stretch of wilderness they wander about in, it has nothing to do with what type of weapon they use. Despite "Ranger" being a noun, it is derived from an adjective of roaming the ranges. As a DM for many years, I can safely say that not all rangers user bows exclusively and not all rangers use melee weapons exclusively. This is why we have sub-classes and builds in the many varies supplements and core rule-books, to allow such things. The Hunter Ranger is not an "Archer Ranger" nor it it is a "Fighter Ranger." It is its own subclass of the Ranger.
. . . . . Never-the-less, hopefully at some point, we'll get an Archer Ranger subclass just like there are two types of fighters now.
ranger
1. forest ranger.
2. one of a body of armed guards who patrol a region.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a U.S. soldier in World War II specially trained for making surprise raids and attacks in small groups. Compare commando ( def 1 ) .
4. a soldier specially trained in the techniques of guerrilla warfare, especially in jungle terrain.
5. a person who ranges or roves.
adding the HUNTER To that implies they are meant to forge, search, or gather... so basically a class called Hunter Ranger is someone that roams around gathering.... this class does nothing by its description... doesn't even match it in literal meaning.
its just a sealthless rogue that can use a bow and has weak damage.
None of the powers in the path are particularly useful for anything they have 2 group buffs and 1 form of CC that does not work on elite mobs. the group buffs add very little damage and protection to the group not usefull enough to make up for the lack of damage the HR has which any class could easily out do adding more usefulness to a party than a couple of weak buffs.
As I have said before the Hunter Ranger has no place in this game... in a group they are weaker offering less than any other class, solo they are very hard to play even with practice, and in pvp they can't stand toe to toe with any class they have to drop an area effect that persist and run.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
ranger
1. forest ranger.
2. one of a body of armed guards who patrol a region.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a U.S. soldier in World War II specially trained for making surprise raids and attacks in small groups. Compare commando ( def 1 ) .
4. a soldier specially trained in the techniques of guerrilla warfare, especially in jungle terrain.
5. a person who ranges or roves.
adding the HUNTER To that implies they are meant to forge, search, or gather... so basically a class called Hunter Ranger is someone that roams around gathering.... this class does nothing by its description... doesn't even match it in literal meaning.
its just a sealthless rogue that can use a bow and has weak damage.
None of the powers in the path are particularly useful for anything they have 2 group buffs and 1 form of CC that does not work on elite mobs. the group buffs add very little damage and protection to the group not usefull enough to make up for the lack of damage the HR has which any class could easily out do adding more usefulness to a party than a couple of weak buffs.
As I have said before the Hunter Ranger has no place in this game... in a group they are weaker offering less than any other class, solo they are very hard to play even with practice, and in pvp they can't stand toe to toe with any class they have to drop an area effect that persist and run.
. . . . . Your defined retort only strengthens my post. I still don't see how the word Ranger implies ranged combat nor the word Hunter implying hunting just forest wildlife with a bow or ranged weapon beyond the words themselves - which would be taking them out of context of D&D. In D&D, it has never meant this.
. . . . .A ranger in D&D almost always protects the ranges of wilderness in which he ranges or roves, which your quoted definition echos. It has nothing to do with the weapon they choose to use, which are chosen from an allotted assortment of weapons allowed to the class. The bow just happens to be a popular choice for most rangers, for obvious reasons.
. . . . . Never-the-less, we need to divert from discussing the words out of context for this has nothing to do with the meaning for this thread, which is to provide feedback on the mechanics of the class. As you ended your post above, let's continue to provide constructive feedback about the mechanics and not the meaning of the the ranger, for this is already clearly defined in D&D and this ranger subclass fits as being a type of ranger.
ranger
1. forest ranger.
2. one of a body of armed guards who patrol a region.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a U.S. soldier in World War II specially trained for making surprise raids and attacks in small groups. Compare commando ( def 1 ) .
4. a soldier specially trained in the techniques of guerrilla warfare, especially in jungle terrain.
5. a person who ranges or roves.
adding the HUNTER To that implies they are meant to forge, search, or gather... so basically a class called Hunter Ranger is someone that roams around gathering.... this class does nothing by its description... doesn't even match it in literal meaning.
its just a sealthless rogue that can use a bow and has weak damage.
None of the powers in the path are particularly useful for anything they have 2 group buffs and 1 form of CC that does not work on elite mobs. the group buffs add very little damage and protection to the group not usefull enough to make up for the lack of damage the HR has which any class could easily out do adding more usefulness to a party than a couple of weak buffs.
As I have said before the Hunter Ranger has no place in this game... in a group they are weaker offering less than any other class, solo they are very hard to play even with practice, and in pvp they can't stand toe to toe with any class they have to drop an area effect that persist and run.
I cant tell if your trolling or just a bad player the majority of the complaints atm are about the playstyle of the class and the last balance patch they nerfed there dps personally i see the class as a hybrid melee/ranged toon and could careless about any one elses play style. Th problems with the class atm is the encounter and at will dmg the classes play style is a personal problem. With that said keep the thread on track. All i see are people buthurt cuase the class dose not cater to there personal playstyles and desires any legit feed back is being drowned out in this huge argument.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
I spent an hour or so re-reading every post in this thread, and then it hit me:
They nerfed the Ranged skills so that we couldn't play as ranged ONLY Rangers, but to FORCE us to use the Melee skills too.
Then they buffed the melee skills, not enough to make melee only combat possible, but to FORCE us to use the HR in dual-stance mode.
All of our feedback is being used to FORCE us to use the HR in a dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
There will be NO Either/And/Or to it, the HR is being set up for dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
I can't play thay way. I doubt that the melee Ranger types can, either. Or the ranged Rangers, for that matter.
Perhaps I'm seeing it all wrong, but that's how I see it, at this moment.
Edit:
Read my post, post #384 on page 39, then see if you agree.
well that is the class they designed, and told us we were getting, would it be nice to get say 85% out of the class if you focused on ranged or melee only? Heck yeah, but they dont want that, personally I will prob focus on 1 side of things but I do so knowing full well I am not getting 100% out of the class.
Here is something for you. Rangers prefer bow cause they are able to kill quicker at distance. Getting in close would lead to a prolonged battle that would more than likely destroy wilderness areas that they are trying to protect. Yes they can use melee if their shots fail to kill. In table top D&D I always used a bow, yes I had a sword also but never really used it.
Comments
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is exactly what I've been getting at.
They gave us a ranged feat tree for a reason didn't they?
Yes and lets be honest, the archery tree is amazing!
But sadly even with this heavy dps oriented feat tree we hit like a wet noodle with ALL our encounters.
Now I realize this is an MMO and only loosely based on D&D 4e but come on. How can you claim even loosely based D&D classes and so badly miss the mark on such a important foundational characteristic of a class.
I like the ability to switch between ranged an melee but we should not be punished for choosing Ranged over Melee. Which is what has happened since the massive nerfs to ranged skills.
I'm starting to thing all of the developers play either Tricksters or Control Wiz's because any class that might dethrone them from top DPS charts gets nerfed into the ground.
I'm starting to reach the point of just giving up hope of ever getting a decent Ranger class.
I did not take any of the feats that increase damage based on distance, you don't have to either. I find that I am far more effective when I am switching stances VERY OFTEN. Aspect of the Serpent works very well for this, as do many other feats that we have access to. There are just too many mobs that can dictate the range of an encounter for me to focus on feats which increase my damage based on distance (be it long or short).
The Ranger is an extremely survivable class, I use less potions on my HR than I have with any other toon. We have amazing dodge potential if you train yourself to use it effectively. But, the HR truly is an "Advanced" class, it requires far more "fine tuning" and far more practice, to make the most of it.
Once they get around to buffing the over nerfed ranged powers, and buff a few of the less-than-stellar Melee abilites then the HR will be a great addition to the game. Just as long as they do not OVER buff things.
I haven't been skimming posts. I understand that the concept of the HR is to use BOTH, just as the concept of TR is to use stealth, but offering a singular style of play as a potential path brings the automatic assumtion that I can opt out of one style for the majority of the game. This is currently not the case, in fact range is more a fluff aspect as an opener and maybe, if you're really lucky, a closer.
I have to when i want to maximize my range dmg!
And, quite often, the HR will be running along, long out of combat, with the bow in her left hand, but the bowstring is floating in the air behind her right shoulder.
From what I can see, and from what I've gone through in the last two weeks, I no longer hold out any hope of ever getting a Ranger that I'd enjoy playing.
Take care, all.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
See the bright side! It cant get worse!
Plz dont prove me wrong
Sorry warzog but those are minor tweeks that I'm sure can easily be fixed before the HR goes live. It's more an issue how this class is to be played and how players perceive the class when looking at the skill trees.
Again to compare to the TR, we have a stealth focused path and a DPS path with a combo of the two offered as well. HR has a melee path, an archery path and a nature (utility) path. No major focus on swapping and sadly I don't see, in current play, an 80-20% split when focusing on archery.
Take a look at our setbonuses, most of them fit for range based playstyles, like roots/hp regen when dodging and movespeed increase.
That all shows me that its intended to play a ranger mostly on range, with supporting meleebuffs/cc effects.
That WOULD work perfectly well, since our meleebuffs arent gamebreaking good but offer a decent amount of utility.
Our biggest problem is simply our low sustained dmg and the nonexistant burst dmg!
Both is easy to fix and as soon as its done we have a working class!
It's not that hard to make this class working but sadly they make it even worse atm.
Ranged combat before the nerf was the fast, strongest form of attack I'd seen in ANY class, including CW's and TR's (which I have leveled multiple times). It needed a slight nerf in the early levels to balance it, though it did require a massive amount of attention and control to achieve the same result as those other classes.
Melee combat at those same low levels felt incredibly weak and innefficient. As if it was a secondary option. It seemed to need a buff in the early levels to come close to even the output of a DC.
Rangers, by default, are a dual spec, 'do it all' class. They are melee AND ranged, and thus their attention to detail requires both. Players should be ENCOURAGED to do both, and if they sacrifice one or the other (through feat choice, etc), they should notice the weakness. Ranged attacks under Archer paragon path should not make an archer so good he can survive close range without issue. In fact, his close range should be weak. Very weak. The same holds true for melee rangers and distanced attacks. Strengths and weaknesses.
A player who chooses to focus on one style of combat should be superior in that style, I agree. Maybe the issue isn't with the base skills (which they recently nerfed) but the feat bonuses. But as the HR has so much option for versatility, it should obviously weaken them in other styles.
A GWF who plays sentinel with that kind of tank and still has great DPS (i.e. with tene's) is a broken class. An HR who can trash mobs at distance but still remains strong at close range is, also, broken. Range and mobility covers a rangers defenses in that scenario, while deflect and mobility covers it in melee. This should be readily apparent in the class and obvious from the very get go.
And while players should have the option of being good at both, or great at one or another, they should not be great at both.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I spent an hour or so re-reading every post in this thread, and then it hit me:
They nerfed the Ranged skills so that we couldn't play as ranged ONLY Rangers, but to FORCE us to use the Melee skills too.
Then they buffed the melee skills, not enough to make melee only combat possible, but to FORCE us to use the HR in dual-stance mode.
All of our feedback is being used to FORCE us to use the HR in a dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
There will be NO Either/And/Or to it, the HR is being set up for dual-stance mode ONLY!!!
I can't play thay way. I doubt that the melee Ranger types can, either. Or the ranged Rangers, for that matter.
Perhaps I'm seeing it all wrong, but that's how I see it, at this moment.
Edit:
Read my post, post #384 on page 39, then see if you agree.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
they were better off as they were than they are now.
the high powered damage was from lower levels. Higher levels they mellow out.
not they are doing poor to alright in lower levels, and horrible in higher levels. DC's have a better time killing things than a HR does now.
welcome to the realization even the archer path seem to affect both melee and ranged skills. It is as if ranged for this class is a get out of jail free token to get the upper hand on a target before preparing to jump right back into melee range to deal most the dmg. It seems ranged is the defensive playstyle and melee the offensive. Max rang is 80 yes you being able to obliterate something from a 80 range with out being touched is kinda OP the range is more if you use that 1 class feature. Personally i never unslot ME its just to good for getting out and getting back in. I personally think there trying to find the sweet spot between the two stances personally i am ok with this cause who in there right mind is really gonna use this class in pure melee mode when a ranged mode is possible and optimal. With that said i understand why they nerfed the purly ranged side of this class makes the melee side pointless.
ATM this class needs its encounters and atwills scaled and properly rebalanced then this class would be ok again
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Before the major nerf you could make 1 "medium" kill (Nordic Brute, etc...) with use of encounter powers or max 3 "cannonfodder" kills (Lizardman Darter, etc...) without (exempting the very powerful AoE Split Shot) before you're in melee combat, similar to a TR's Cloud of Steel if it wasn't limited to 8 throws at a shorter range. As for the arguement that while kiting you can use something like Rain of Arrows, which is a range attack, BS. Just because the power uses a bow in order to activate it and drops arrows does not make it a ranged attack, not even if it CAN be fired from range.
And just to add to that.. the very archetype of "Ranger", would not exist in D&D, were it not for Tolkien's Rangers of the North
Like it or not, the HR is meant to stance switch. The feat trees make it so you will want to spend more time in one stance or another, but not avoid switching altogether. The class will be balanced (notice I wrote will) with that in mind. It does not mean one cannot play ranged exclusively, but it will never be on par with other classes in solo play because it is meant to stance dance. With the game design they decided on, it is impossible to deliver what a few are asking here in that range exclusive play be comparable with other classes. If they did that, the class would be extremely OP in the hands of people that stance dance. One needs to keep that in mind when making suggestions.
I also want to say that I have leveled and well equipped one of every class except the DC. I found the ranger no harder or easier to level (except the early levels when he was comparatively much stronger). With every class there were specific fights or moments when my equipment was outdated that I had to try more than once to clear the fight. With every class I was forced to use some powers at some points which were not my favorite, but worked better in certain situations or at my power level. Also note that because of some recent changes and the lack of skirmish on mimic my ranger was usually 2-3 levels below the opposition. I believe that is the case with most people.
Finally, solo play and dungeon play are two very different beasts. I don't know how rangers are comparing to other dps classes in dungeons, but would very much like to if someone has that info. Ultimately, the class will be balanced with dungeons in mind, as it should be. Once one is geared at 60 solo play is trivial on any class anyway.
I believe the ranger does need some buffs, but nothing major. I also believe these buffs are coming. I just think if we provide more impartial feedback there is a better chance the HR releases in a better state, since the end of the year is fast approaching.
I leveled 0-60 with my TR never using TAB, using Dailies less than 100 times, sold ALL of my potions of lesser healing and roughly 50% of my weak healing, I still have regular potions of healing on my belt instead of greater healing and haven't bought a single potion. How? I have a Cleric Disciple companion that isn't realy that well equipt healing me between and somewhat during fights and I do a lot of hit-and-run attacking.
My HR is now level 53 and I've used all of my weak healing potions and have started using my healing potions even though I have a better equipt Cleric Disciple with me. I use a Daily almost every boss encounter and I'm still using my hit-and-run tactics although admitted I'm not TABing between stances.
I did one CTA Skirmish soon after the event started with only 1 other HR. I was focused on ranged attacks and ranked 4th in DPS and enemies killed. I forgot I opened the preview server and jumped right into the queue without respecing my HR so I was still rigged with long range single target damage, speak Marauder's Escape/Hindering Shot/Hawkshot with Rapid Fire/Split Shot as At-Wills and Forest Meditation/Disruptive Shot as Dailies.
. . . . . Never-the-less, hopefully at some point, we'll get an Archer Ranger subclass just like there are two types of fighters now.
. . . . . Just because the word Hunter is used doesn't mean they are hunding wildlife game. They could be hunting their favored enemies, like goblins, trolls, kobolds or even dragons. Depending on the creature or thing being hunted, varied weapons will be necessary.
. . . . . The Hunter Ranger in Neverwiter is actually keeping with D&D for as I said, there are varied builds and subclasses in the many supplements and rule-books. The Hunter Ranger is Neverwinter's version of such a subclass or build.
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That is good to know. Considering you were set up for single target and that other classes on the preview are probably very well geared, it doesn't look too bad. I really wish dummies had an 'x' function that we could reset to measure damage, at least in the trade of blades.
I perfectly understand your points. The best I can do is relay my experiences. The ranger has so many options that we all still have a lot to learn.
First off, I also went through a ton of potions, and still do at 60. The defenses are just too weak for a melee ranger. I always had around 500 regeneration while leveling up, and still needed pots. I also used many pots leveling the open beta gwf and the rogue in the 50s, the cw and gf not nearly as much.
I found that my biggest trouble was against a higher number of mobs. As such I always opened with 2 split shots, which got rid of basic adds. This was pre nerf, now it takes 3, which I don't have time to fire, so I do 2 and switch stance to finish off the weaklings. Against bosses it was the easiest part. With so many shifts you can avoid most damage. My toughest times were when facing 2-3 multi life-bar opponents or when a boss spawned adds mid battle. My way to get through that was forest ghost to open some distance and basically reset my rotation. Without forest ghost it would not have worked, and I agree it should not be so. Then again dailies are meant to be life savers. The boss battle in "root of the problem" is still a challenge to me, if I am not on my game I die.
Note that I leveled melee, which really only starts making a difference past 40. Still, I was much more effective from range. In melee its pot fest. I used split the sky and rain of arrows to complement my damage constantly, usually either one or the other, on rotation, for firing both takes too long. I found rain of arrows was the only skill that delivered strong damage vs elites. I either fired it on casters or in front of me vs melee, the latter usually followed by concussive shot to spare me some beating. Going pure melee vs an elite is still unviable at 60 with my blue gear without pots.
From 48 to 60 I paired on and off with a ranged ranger. The difference in ranged damage was visible. She could one shot regular adds on a crit, and she crit often. I imagine post nerf that went to 2 shots. She also never reported problems when leveling alone, though this was pre-nerf. when we were together it was, of course, a breeze. She at one point switched aimed shot in for rapid shot, and opened on the strong mob instead of getting rid of the adds first. It worked well paired up, not sure when she soloed.
I did try boar charge charge for some 10 levels, and like it a lot, but ultimately rain of arrows lets me get through elites faster.
That was my experience. I do feel encounters need to be buffed a bit. In some cases in the time it takes for the animation to fire one can do more damage spamming at-wills. On one hand I understand they cannot do too much damage because we can potentially have 6 encounters, but on the other hand the CDs are so long that in a minute you get to fire slightly more encounters than, say, a cw. They'll have to balance that fine line. Again, the class does still need balancing, I am just trying to be realistic about it.
My DC i can play without using my healing on myself or companion and have no problems. My TR I can play without using stealth and have no problems. My GF I can play without using shield and have no problems. I can play my CW without using the push skill and have no problems. GWF I haven't really played yet. HR has to use stance switch in order to just survive, barely.
ranger
1. forest ranger.
2. one of a body of armed guards who patrol a region.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a U.S. soldier in World War II specially trained for making surprise raids and attacks in small groups. Compare commando ( def 1 ) .
4. a soldier specially trained in the techniques of guerrilla warfare, especially in jungle terrain.
5. a person who ranges or roves.
adding the HUNTER To that implies they are meant to forge, search, or gather... so basically a class called Hunter Ranger is someone that roams around gathering.... this class does nothing by its description... doesn't even match it in literal meaning.
its just a sealthless rogue that can use a bow and has weak damage.
None of the powers in the path are particularly useful for anything they have 2 group buffs and 1 form of CC that does not work on elite mobs. the group buffs add very little damage and protection to the group not usefull enough to make up for the lack of damage the HR has which any class could easily out do adding more usefulness to a party than a couple of weak buffs.
As I have said before the Hunter Ranger has no place in this game... in a group they are weaker offering less than any other class, solo they are very hard to play even with practice, and in pvp they can't stand toe to toe with any class they have to drop an area effect that persist and run.
. . . . .A ranger in D&D almost always protects the ranges of wilderness in which he ranges or roves, which your quoted definition echos. It has nothing to do with the weapon they choose to use, which are chosen from an allotted assortment of weapons allowed to the class. The bow just happens to be a popular choice for most rangers, for obvious reasons.
. . . . . Never-the-less, we need to divert from discussing the words out of context for this has nothing to do with the meaning for this thread, which is to provide feedback on the mechanics of the class. As you ended your post above, let's continue to provide constructive feedback about the mechanics and not the meaning of the the ranger, for this is already clearly defined in D&D and this ranger subclass fits as being a type of ranger.
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I cant tell if your trolling or just a bad player the majority of the complaints atm are about the playstyle of the class and the last balance patch they nerfed there dps personally i see the class as a hybrid melee/ranged toon and could careless about any one elses play style. Th problems with the class atm is the encounter and at will dmg the classes play style is a personal problem. With that said keep the thread on track. All i see are people buthurt cuase the class dose not cater to there personal playstyles and desires any legit feed back is being drowned out in this huge argument.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
well that is the class they designed, and told us we were getting, would it be nice to get say 85% out of the class if you focused on ranged or melee only? Heck yeah, but they dont want that, personally I will prob focus on 1 side of things but I do so knowing full well I am not getting 100% out of the class.