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Celestial Coin reset - Is it necessary?

whoamarkwhoamark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited October 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
I'm sure those of you who pray often are aware of this little gem:
In-game wrote:
Gain a Celestial Coin the first time you use your Invocation Skill on a given day. Celestial Coins, like the gods themselves, have fleeting form and must be renewed daily to persist in the mortal world.

My question is, is it really necessary, and does it even make sense?

So the coins are literally jumping out of my pocket or vanishing into thin air? Okay, so they're a mystical currency bestowed by the gods so I guess that can make sense? Sort of? It just seems to me that it only exists either to annoy the player base or take away the chance at a coalescent ward and other proper rewards because of course, too much of a good thing is a bad thing in this game.

It bothers me because I prayed yesterday on my TR and because I was like an hour outside the 24-hr invoke period to get my coins, still I lost my coins regardless of actually praying, so those who can't log on at a certain time lose all of that currency for no real reason other than a fictional description.
Post edited by whoamark on
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Comments

  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    whoamark wrote: »
    I'm sure those of you who pray often are aware of this little gem:



    My question is, is it really necessary, and does it even make sense?

    So the coins are literally jumping out of my pocket or vanishing into thin air? Okay, so they're a mystical currency bestowed by the gods so I guess that can make sense? Sort of? It just seems to me that it only exists either to annoy the player base or take away the chance at a coalescent ward and other proper rewards because of course, too much of a good thing is a bad thing in this game.

    It bothers me because I prayed yesterday on my TR and because I was like an hour outside the 24-hr invoke period to get my coins, still I lost my coins regardless of actually praying, so those who can't log on at a certain time lose all of that currency for no real reason other than a fictional description.

    Ardent coins reward long-time players, Celestial coins reward consistent players. It is a good thing that different play styles and habits are being rewarded. Players who see losing the coins as a punishment need to step back and realize the intent of said implementation...
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  • whoamarkwhoamark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    Ardent coins reward long-time players, Celestial coins reward consistent players. It is a good thing that different play styles and habits are being rewarded. Players who see losing the coins as a punishment need to step back and realize the intent of said implementation...

    Or... both coins could stick around, and it wouldn't affect anybody differently.

    Sorry, but that just sounds like a load of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with no real justifiable reason. I'm a consistent player, but sometimes I have to work a particular shift or something. Things happen, and because of that I'm penalized? It's a silly mechanic.
  • rhoriangelusrhoriangelus Member Posts: 703 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The timer is actually 1 day and 5 hours - five hours is a lot of leeway. You don't have to log on exactly at 5 pm if you did the previous night - you can log in as late as almost 10 pm and be fine.

    That said. I agree with bioshrike. The celestial coins are there for consistent players to get a reward - and it's honestly a pretty small reward. The profession packs are almost worthless and the enchantment packs have only a pretty small chance of giving you something kind of useful. Honestly, all my coalescent wards I get from invoking (don't get excited - I have a ton of characters that I invoke on every day, I don't get them that often. Maybe one every two or three weeks) tend to sit in my bank doing nothing.
  • whoamarkwhoamark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Somehow I would reckon that it is sneakily that way so there are less profitable rewards floating about for F2P players. Just one extra mechanic that perpetuates the purchasing of Zen in some way. It wouldn't kill them to remove this mechanic, but the fact that it's so vehemently pushed tells me that this is the reason.

    From the stand point of profit and all of that jazz, it just makes sense. People can sugar coat it all they want but it's most likely the reason why this mechanic exists. I know that it will never change, but figured I'd create a topic to see what most people think of this.
  • dirtyhookdirtyhook Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Wait, you get coal wards from invoking?
    All I have ever gotten is potions.
  • whoamarkwhoamark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    dirtyhook wrote: »
    Wait, you get coal wards from invoking?
    All I have ever gotten is potions.

    For 7 coins you can get a Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation which has a chance of awarding a coalescent ward. In my experience it's around a 15-20% chance and most people I know would agree with this figure.
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The idea is sound on paper, but its implementation is flawed because it causes a lot of player frustration disproportionate to the time invested, especially for the kind of player who could afford/be prepared to use the cash shop rather than have all the time in the world always.

    The main source of the frustration is not only do you lose something, which is not natural in most games and certainly not MMOs, but in addition the reset is a full reset of all your coins. It is therefore a double whammy and feels like a lot of irrecoverable "time lost" .

    As even an admin once proposed, the most you should lose per Celestial Coin reset is one coin, i.e. a decay rather than a complete reset just for missing out on one period out of the seven needed.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    whoamark wrote: »
    Or... both coins could stick around, and it wouldn't affect anybody differently.

    Sorry, but that just sounds like a load of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with no real justifiable reason. I'm a consistent player, but sometimes I have to work a particular shift or something. Things happen, and because of that I'm penalized? It's a silly mechanic.

    There would likely only be 1 reward - Ardent coins, if they were to stick around indefinitely. Again, it is a matter of intent - one rewards the player that *can* login and play every day - and let's be honest here, it takes about 10 seconds to invoke - and don't tell me that you or anyone can't spare 10 seconds every 29 hours, to do this. And, hey, if you do miss a day, you can start right back up accumulating the coins again.
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  • manplowmanplow Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    dirtyhook wrote: »
    Wait, you get coal wards from invoking?
    All I have ever gotten is potions.

    You don't get wards from invoking itself, instead, you can spend the coins you get from invoking on boxes that contain wards. You didn't know this?

    Edit: I must have my god's favor, because I tend to get coalescent wards about half the time. Knock on wood.
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  • inthefade462inthefade462 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    some bean counter somewhere wrote a study that in f2p market even if you are going to lose a player, having a mechanic like this that forces them to login every day to at least perform X action (where in this case, X is pressing Ctrl+I to invoke) keeps the "bored, about to quit" players from truly quitting, as they have a tenuous connection to the game and the possible rewards there of. "well, i'm quitting but i'll still login to invoke" either becomes "well, i'll login to invoke and do tradeskills. ok my friends asked me to do a dungeon so i'll do that" or it, at the very least, provides a view of the splash screen with whatever the latest zen store advertisements/sales each day.

    If there was no reward/penalty for the daily login mechanic then people who quit would actually just quit immediately and never be seen again. It's yet another hook that keeps players attached in the f2p genre.
  • mrspumamrspuma Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I don't personally care, because the rewards are pretty minimal, as already mentioned.

    But I also don't see how - for example - having the coins not reset is harmful or advantageous to anything - IF the limit is still in place. That is, they don't disappear if you miss a pray-day, but once you have 7, you can't accrue anymore until you spend them, no matter how often you pray. ;)

    Edit: inthefade's post above does make sense/is also true, in terms of keeping the player logged in. It's a carrot, basically.
  • whoamarkwhoamark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    fondlez wrote: »
    The idea is sound on paper, but its implementation is flawed because it causes a lot of player frustration disproportionate to the time invested, especially for the kind of player who could afford/be prepared to use the cash shop rather than have all the time in the world always.

    The main source of the frustration is not only do you lose something, which is not natural in most games and certainly not MMOs, but in addition the reset is a full reset of all your coins. It is therefore a double whammy and represents a lot of irrecoverable "time lost" .

    As even an admin once proposed, the most you should lose per Celestial Coin reset is one coin, i.e a decay rather than a complete reset just for missing out on one period out of the seven needed.

    I'm with you - a one coin penalty would be sound, losing all coins is just frustrating and unnecessary.
  • rhoriangelusrhoriangelus Member Posts: 703 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    whoamark wrote: »
    For 7 coins you can get a Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation which has a chance of awarding a coalescent ward. In my experience it's around a 15-20% chance and most people I know would agree with this figure.

    hahahaha, no. I definitely don't agree. Not even near 15-20%. I have ten characters that I invoke on every day, and like I said, I get one every two or three weeks. That's closer to around 4-5%.

    However! I do agree that making it so you lose one coin per day you don't invoke makes more sense to me. I missed a day a few weeks ago and lost 5-6 coins on ALL of my characters, I was pretty annoyed. But life goes on, you know? Nothing buyable with celestial coins is necessary, and you can only ever lose 7 of them, max. I'd be way more irritated if you could accumulate way more than 7 and lose them all.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mrspuma wrote: »
    I don't personally care, because the rewards are pretty minimal, as already mentioned.

    But I also don't see how - for example - having the coins not reset is harmful or advantageous to anything - IF the limit is still in place. That is, they don't disappear if you miss a pray-day, but once you have 7, you can't accrue anymore until you spend them, no matter how often you pray. ;)

    First of all, people need to get out of the mindset that losing the coins is a punishment. You are getting the the coins as a REWARD for logging in and invoking. The purpose of the celestial coins is to reward people who login and play consistently (i.e. at least one login per 29 hr period). You start with no coins - that is the base condition. You GAIN coins by invoking, and you accumulate coins by logging in at lest once per period. You RETAIN coins by continuing this pattern. The requirement of meeting the very simple criteria is neither excessive nor overly demanding.
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  • whoamarkwhoamark Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    First of all, people need to get out of the mindset that losing the coins is a punishment. You are getting the the coins as a REWARD for logging in and invoking. The purpose of the celestial coins is to reward people who login and play consistently (i.e. at least one login per 29 hr period). You start with no coins - that is the base condition. You GAIN coins by invoking, and you accumulate coins by logging in at lest once per period. You RETAIN coins by continuing this pattern. The requirement of meeting the very simple criteria is neither excessive nor overly demanding.

    It isn't demanding by any means and honestly I rarely lose all my coins, but the times it did happen were because I was working a 12 hour shift and I just never got the chance to pop on for whatever reason, whether it's a power outage (got lots of those this past month), or me staying at my girlfriend's house, whatever the case may be. I know it's my responsibility and I know that people disagree, but I disagree that all coins should be lost. It may not frustrate you, but it irks me.
  • mrspumamrspuma Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    First of all, people need to get out of the mindset that losing the coins is a punishment. You are getting the the coins as a REWARD for logging in and invoking. The purpose of the celestial coins is to reward people who login and play consistently (i.e. at least one login per 29 hr period). You start with no coins - that is the base condition. You GAIN coins by invoking, and you accumulate coins by logging in at lest once per period. You RETAIN coins by continuing this pattern. The requirement of meeting the very simple criteria is neither excessive nor overly demanding.
    Yes, but if they're a reward for daily logging in, then losing them for not logging in is the negative consequence for not logging in. Which while not exactly a punishment per se, can still be seen as a negative or unreasonable when one does care enough to log in, but can't always do so 100% of the time.

    If one actually cares about those little rewards in the first place, not gaining any more after 7 (or losing only one per day of no log in) seems incentive enough to spend them and then continue logging on to invoke as often as your personal schedule permits.
  • valeriob80valeriob80 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 155 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    mrspuma wrote: »
    Yes, but if they're a reward for daily logging in, then losing them for not logging in is the negative consequence for not logging in. Which while not exactly a punishment per se, can still be seen as a negative or unreasonable when one does care enough to log in, but can't always do so 100% of the time.

    I totally agree. I log everyday, then if I want to go out for the weekend I have to lose all I gained during the week. It's stupid. I should lose the 2 coins I'm not inwoking for, but keep the other 5. Other people would gain 4 chests/month, I would gain 3/month. It seems fair to me.

    Would be good to if something like: if you don't log for one week you lose your coins. But every single day is not a game, is slavery lol ^_^
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I've never understood the fuss here - it's pretty much like 90% of the "login bonus" style things I run into in other games - weeklong set of bonuses that build to the "best" one on the final day, resetting to zero if you miss one. Nothing new or surprising here, it's been done by a bunch of companies in a bunch of games. Really don't see the big deal. /shrug
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    kiralyn wrote: »
    I've never understood the fuss here - it's pretty much like 90% of the "login bonus" style things I run into in other games - weeklong set of bonuses that build to the "best" one on the final day, resetting to zero if you miss one. Nothing new or surprising here, it's been done by a bunch of companies in a bunch of games. Really don't see the big deal. /shrug

    Does not change anything if it is a bad mechanic or poorly implemented.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    fondlez wrote: »
    Does not change anything if it is a bad mechanic or poorly implemented.

    ...in your opinion. In my opinion, it is a good mechanic BECAUSE it rewards/gives incentive to people that login daily - especially in the case where someone may have more time than they do money, whatever wards they get can be sold or traded for items they couldn't otherwise afford. In at least a minimal way, it also encourages you to keep up with the game, (if in no other way than to login and invoke day-to-day).
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  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    In at least a minimal way, it also encourages you to keep up with the game, (if in no other way than to login and invoke day-to-day).

    There are implementations that do that but do not penalize more than they have to. I already listed one in my original reply, as have others, and you pointedly ignore them.

    The current system basically makes a "mountain out of a mole-hill" from a time and reward perspective.

    No one thinks to themselves, "I must login today to Neverwinter so I do not lose X Celestial Coins this week". The rewards are not large enough for a normal player to care or indeed track. Instead, they simply lose the opportunity to login due to real life and lose potentially up to a week's worth of time invested creating gaming opportunities. This is further exacerbated with the more alts one owns. So, the current system is a penalty when there is no option involved.

    Casual players do not care one way or the other - they will use Invoking for buffs or Ardents or even habit. Players at the margins who are thinking of quitting the game, will just get frustrated at the ONE time they lose X coins and add that to their list of reasons to quit. So, who is it helping and do you honestly think the current system could not be improved?
  • gek1956gek1956 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Actually with celestial coins, they MAKE you spend them, to protect you from just such a total loss if you can't make it one day. The COA wards are the single most valuable reward of the whole system, and they require only minor consistency. Ardent coins on the other hand... are more of a pie in the sky item, but the top prizes they offer are valuable more from uniqueness than usefulness. The angel is just a pet, and like most of the other pets, will probably lay down on you and die when you need it the most. There will be enough around next year so that you could buy one off the AH if you oversleep on logins. More than fair if you ask me, for in game freebies.
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2013
    whoamark wrote: »
    For 7 coins you can get a Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation which has a chance of awarding a coalescent ward. In my experience it's around a 15-20% chance and most people I know would agree with this figure.

    really?15-20!? ahaha sorry but maybe you should be very lucky. The chance is 8-10%
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    wow. the discontentment in this thread... here's a thing: you don't have to invoke at all. the celestial coins are a mechanic designed to reward players that log in at least once every 24 hours. the ardent coins reward players for logging in per day. what i glean from the overall argument is that these coins should be static but it would undermine their entire purpose: it's an incentive to play
  • yokihiroyokihiro Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 510 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2013
    Why do we even discuss this?
    People who want a reward for logging in daily will have this. Now people that don't want to be punished for not logging in can have it, too by either not removing them or only 1 per day.

    Both sides would be happy. Or are the die hard daily login people more happy when they will know that some people lose their coins? The one that logs in daily would not have any negative effect on his playstyle so why all this discussing about "it is a reward for daily login in". You could still login daily if you want and have 7 coins ready in 7 days. If someone won't login for 3 days and the coins would not vanish then he would need 10 days for the final reward.

    Just remove that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of punishing and just make it a reward - both sides happy and fine for everyone.
  • buffsmadbuffsmad Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    No one takes anything away. The coins have a CD that, if not refreshed by stacking a new coin with new CD......*poof*

    Its a very small chance once a week at blue item. I'd rather cry about the price of blue wards in the Zen Shop than this minor Pavlovian trick.

    Just wait until the events start requiring a 5hr or even 2hr daily logon window for cumulative combat buffs or other more valuable stuff (or *hopes* buffs to increase daily AD refinement cap while its active). :D Now they'll be 'losses' worth crying over. ;)
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Just remove that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of punishing and just make it a reward

    But it already is. There's a reward for consecutive logins. Not being able to do something, doesn't make it a punishment.


    Are you being "punished" that you can't get Gaunt coins, because you're not in (can't get in, don't have the time to get in, don't want to get in) a guild?
    Are you being punished that you're not getting CN gear, because you don't run (don't have time, don't like dungeons, can't get a good group) CN?
    Heck, people can get AD on their first three Invokes each day. Does that mean if you can't do more than one invoke in a day, you're being punished?
    No?
    Then why are you being punished by not getting this bonus, because you don't or can't do the things that will get you the bonus?
  • yokihiroyokihiro Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 510 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2013
    kiralyn wrote: »
    Are you being "punished" that you can't get Gaunt coins, because you're not in (can't get in, don't have the time to get in, don't want to get in) a guild?

    Definitely a yes. I am not in a guild and it makes no sense at all to lock a part of the game (that doesn't reflect guild play anyway) to players. Since guilds can't earn anything in GG why is it mandatory?
    kiralyn wrote: »
    Are you being punished that you're not getting CN gear, because you don't run (don't have time, don't like dungeons, can't get a good group) CN?

    Sorry this makes no sense. That would be comparing not invoking at all with invoking and saying that both should give the same rewards what would make the whole invoking obsolete.
  • cribstaxxxcribstaxxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,300 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2013
    whoamark wrote: »
    Somehow I would reckon that it is sneakily that way so there are less profitable rewards floating about for F2P players. Just one extra mechanic that perpetuates the purchasing of Zen in some way. It wouldn't kill them to remove this mechanic, but the fact that it's so vehemently pushed tells me that this is the reason.

    From the stand point of profit and all of that jazz, it just makes sense. People can sugar coat it all they want but it's most likely the reason why this mechanic exists. I know that it will never change, but figured I'd create a topic to see what most people think of this.

    You assume that F2P players can't get on the game for literally 1-3 minutes (depending on game loading time) to click ctrl I and then log off once every 29 hours. It's not like it's a hard task, before you go to bed you brush your teeth, put your Pj's on, and hop on NW really fast and ctrl I, just add it to your routine =P

    Seriously though there is no way that you are completely occupied to the point you can't take 3 minutes to login in a 29H period, unless you're a doctor who works 24H+ shifts and even then you can afford a tablet PC and do it on the go heh.
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  • sasheriasasheria Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    cribstaxxx wrote: »
    You assume that F2P players can't get on the game for literally 1-3 minutes (depending on game loading time) to click ctrl I and then log off once every 29 hours. It's not like it's a hard task, before you go to bed you brush your teeth, put your Pj's on, and hop on NW really fast and ctrl I, just add it to your routine =P

    Seriously though there is no way that you are completely occupied to the point you can't take 3 minutes to login in a 29H period, unless you're a doctor who works 24H+ shifts and even then you can afford a tablet PC and do it on the go heh.

    Exactly. There is a 29 cooldown period and it SHIFTS when you renew.

    i.e. (5 hours leeway)
    Day 1: Invoke at 8 AM
    You can invoke at the LATEST on Day 2: on 1PM. If you invoke at 9AM
    You can invoke at the LATEST on Day 3: on 2PM

    It takes around 1-3 minutes to do it EACH day. Heck, I was doing it when I wake up, launch app, go brush teeth, shower, log in, fix coffee/breakfast, select character, wait to load, pray, and log off. Everyone once in a while I actually SIT and wait which takes about 3 minutes or so.

    Unless you are pulling 29 hour shift (usually doctors or emergency crew) I don't see the reason that you can't log in.

    The idea is to have reward for ALL types of players. This is the reward for people who can play EVERYDAY (well login and invoke for some)
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