To agree, this would be the same as saying 'remove knockdown and slow' from GWF's, because that's what Control Wizards are for. And tanking from GWF's, because that's what GF's are for. And single target attacks? Duh, we've got rogues.
Each class tips into other classes in their own way.
Just, NO. Takedown has 3 seconds prone effect. Slow down doesn't last a lot too. Stunning flourish is 1 second. Even if you put all those skills into your bar, they don't even come close to the cc of GFs, let alone CWs. Your argument is out of reality. Also: yes, each class tips into other classes. Tips. A GWF doesn't have the tanking and kiting capability of a GF (apart from sentinel builds with 37k hp, regen 10%. That's the only build that can out-tank a gf in PvP, and just cause devs didn't properly test how such high hp would work with regen+ unstoppable). Also, GWF single target damage doesn't even come close to a TR DPS.
While CW AoE DPS equals or surpasses the GWF AoE damage.
So, one thing is if your class has a bit of the ability of another class. Another thing is if your class has its own ability plus another ability at the same, of higher level of another class. To be more honest it's as if a GWF could cc as long as a CW, or burst DPS as much as a TR.
@ copticons: i won't be rude, so i won't say it's BS. But i'll say i don't really think that a destroyer would be able to tank a Group of lvl 65 mobs from an epic t2 dungeon with life steal alone, even if it's at 10%. Do you have a video? Would help.
2) Ok Mr. reality check. Here is the bottom line. For the same reason that you feel GWFs are the least wanted, I can make the same statement for a GF and even TRs, YES TRs. There is absolutely no reason to bring in a TR let alone a GF in ANY dungeon. Any group obsessed with absolute bottom line efficiency, should take 4CW +1DC. You can burn through ANY T2, CN included, with 4xCWs + 1DC. There is absolutely nothing that a TR can do that another CW can't while bringing more to the table. I tank Draco on my CW all the time. 4CWs in Thauma specs with HV sets will burn Draco in under 3minutes.
So you say that CWs are the class that can pile up in a dungeon for max efficiency. Which just confirms that they have too much efficiency in PvE. You also said it's just because dungeons are designed for them. Well, then explain why there's another guy in the forum that reported this: GWFs are being left out of MC cause parties now pile up 4 CWs. Isn't MC supposed to shrink the gap? No? So not even dungeon design can put CWs on par with other classes? May be cause the can both CC and AoE DPS, being the best at 2 things?
I don't want to be rude, but copti, kidbs & co, it just looks like you didn't play the class (copti may be your main is a CW like your signature suggest), cause all i read are assumptions and stuff that really do not match how things go in game. Also, each of you actually have a different main role for the GWF: one says it's a tank, the other it's a DPS, the other says it's a hybrid...
What i wrote is quite simple: there's a fact, and the fact is that CWs are almost monopolizing dungeons, while GWFs are consistently left out and seen as not needed. It's not just cause some dungeons let them push mobs off the edge. It's cause while all classes are the best at 1 thing only, CWs are the best at 2 things, and GWFs are the best at nothing. So just 1 of the 2 things CWs are the best at, should be the GWF specialty. So that CWs would be primary cc as they're now, but not also primary AoE DPSrs.
This way you wouldn't see parties with 4 CWs and 1 DC, and GWFs would have a role in PvE.
MC was supposed to be a dungeon designed to let each class be useful, and instead it's turning out in another CW fest.
If you still think that it's ok, then there's nothing else that i, or the other guys that brought facts to you, can say to make you change your mind. Have fun playing your CWs and prepare to have 1 less class in game.
Destroyer is single target and PVP. The AOE DPS role is Instigator. People really need to understand that point.
There was no other role or class that came close to the amount of DPS I dished out. Now that AP generation is nerfed there is one class that now beats me in AOE damage. That is an equally geared/skilled TR. Nothing wrong with a single target class putting out more damage than an AOE class....right? RIGHT?
Reality Vs perception of reality, a true philosophical dilemma, GWFs are great toons, powerful, fun, versatile and almost unkillable...
90% of the player's base consider them useless: they're useless.
Its harder to destroy an atom than destroy a prejudice.
Lol so now the playerbase is being "classist" against the poor GWF's? It doesn't matter how much damage whatever spec does b/c aoe damage alone doesn't matter!!! It has no bearing on whether your group does well or not and that is why GWF's are not wanted. Doesn't matter if they did double the damage they do now, they would still not be taken as is to most dungeons b/c it's still faster w/o them. The useful role that a GWF could fill with the right gear and enchants is the tank in instances where that is needed. But everyone seems to want to be top DPS... that is why you're unwanted, b/c aoe DPS by itself with no CC can't hold a candle to the needed boss damage of a TR or the CC of a CW.
I have a GWF, he is PvP only b/c that's what he's good at. I don't want to spend the money to make him a good PvE tank, I have other characters to do PvE.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
What i wrote is quite simple: there's a fact, and the fact is that CWs are almost monopolizing dungeons, while GWFs are consistently left out and seen as not needed. It's not just cause some dungeons let them push mobs off the edge. It's cause while all classes are the best at 1 thing only, CWs are the best at 2 things, and GWFs are the best at nothing. So just 1 of the 2 things CWs are the best at, should be the GWF specialty. So that CWs would be primary cc as they're now, but not also primary AoE DPSrs.
This way you wouldn't see parties with 4 CWs and 1 DC, and GWFs would have a role in PvE.
MC was supposed to be a dungeon designed to let each class be useful, and instead it's turning out in another CW fest.
If you still think that it's ok, then there's nothing else that i, or the other guys that brought facts to you, can say to make you change your mind. Have fun playing your CWs and prepare to have 1 less class in game.
I don't play a CW, but it seems to me from reading your posts that you have more of an interest in removing the capabilities of one class.
I agree that, from my experience (which is fact, though not backed up by any hard stats mind you), CW's are a preference for dungeons. A GWF can do just fine, but with the way Cryptic floods dungeons with adds that are mostly susceptible to CC, it's no wonder CW's have such a high preference rate. Those are the two things they do well.
I would also use, in my argument for more aoe output from GWF's, that any melee class should be more capable of doing DPS than any ranged class. Why? Ranged nukes are op because their initial strength ... range. That GWF has to fight his way to the middle of that pack, taking hits while he's at it. So if it were up to me, point for point GWF's would out AOE CW's by a long margin.
But if we're pushing so hard for our class to improve, we have to be fair ... something I found most lacking in these class arguments. Buff our AOE? Fine. Make us the king of AOE damage? Cool. But what do we lose?
We're burst tanks capable, with the right talents and player skill, of out doing all but the top 10% of GF's. We've got single-point DPS that outdoes every class but TR's. We'd be the king of AOE, leaving only CW's to compete with us. AND, we'd still be the most mobile class on the block.
Because this very post has shown that several players, playing different ways, feel the GWF is an extremely effective and underrated class. Some play it as a tank, some as a skirmisher, some as AOE/mob control.
Should we be so good at it all? Where's the balance for the other classes then?
One point I think can be made: specializing in paragon paths should give us our advantage in two fields. Sentinel should have some penalties that affect our movement capabilities. Destroyer should raise our single point DPS up, but lose CC. Instigator becomes the mob fit, but loses single-point dps.
The trade off needs to be more clearly defined. If anything, definition and explanation ... the real role of our class and it's paths ... is what's lacking here.
That, and dungeon's are built pretty horrible. Of course they favor CW's. Have you run one recently? That's the worst, simplest and most mind numbing AI system I've ever seen. It's like watching SciFi channel. Once you've watched Giant Shark Vs. Crocodile, you can guess the plot of Anaconda vs. Giant Squid and Pterodactyl Vs. Giant Killer Bees. Horribly unimaginative and repetitious.
I think our class isn't bad at all. It's great. But we could use a bit more refinement.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Reality Vs perception of reality, a true philosophical dilemma, GWFs are great toons, powerful, fun, versatile and almost unkillable...
90% of the player's base consider them useless: they're useless.
Its harder to destroy an atom than destroy a prejudice.
That's the bigger problem.
Tell cryptic to post a message stating they are going to remove CW AP gain in the next patch. Put it in the patch notes. Then remove .5% of the gain amount.
The class will almost die overnight as players reroll and start telling each other how horrible it is.
Though to also be honest ... GWF ap gain is stupid slow.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Tell cryptic to post a message stating they are going to remove CW AP gain in the next patch. Put it in the patch notes. Then remove .5% of the gain amount.
The class will almost die overnight as players reroll and start telling each other how horrible it is.
Though to also be honest ... GWF ap gain is stupid slow.
Lol no b/c CW's are an integral part of the team comp for pretty much every dungeon, not to mention they did get AP gain nerfed as well this patch, as did DC's. Pretty much every spell that gave more AP based on how many targets it hit was nerfed to only get a flat amount. This is for all classes.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I don't play a CW, but it seems to me from reading your posts that you have more of an interest in removing the capabilities of one class.
I agree that, from my experience (which is fact, though not backed up by any hard stats mind you), CW's are a preference for dungeons. A GWF can do just fine, but with the way Cryptic floods dungeons with adds that are mostly susceptible to CC, it's no wonder CW's have such a high preference rate. Those are the two things they do well.
I would also use, in my argument for more aoe output from GWF's, that any melee class should be more capable of doing DPS than any ranged class. Why? Ranged nukes are op because their initial strength ... range. That GWF has to fight his way to the middle of that pack, taking hits while he's at it. So if it were up to me, point for point GWF's would out AOE CW's by a long margin.
But if we're pushing so hard for our class to improve, we have to be fair ... something I found most lacking in these class arguments. Buff our AOE? Fine. Make us the king of AOE damage? Cool. But what do we lose?
We're burst tanks capable, with the right talents and player skill, of out doing all but the top 10% of GF's. We've got single-point DPS that outdoes every class but TR's. We'd be the king of AOE, leaving only CW's to compete with us. AND, we'd still be the most mobile class on the block.
Because this very post has shown that several players, playing different ways, feel the GWF is an extremely effective and underrated class. Some play it as a tank, some as a skirmisher, some as AOE/mob control.
Should we be so good at it all? Where's the balance for the other classes then?
One point I think can be made: specializing in paragon paths should give us our advantage in two fields. Sentinel should have some penalties that affect our movement capabilities. Destroyer should raise our single point DPS up, but lose CC. Instigator becomes the mob fit, but loses single-point dps.
The trade off needs to be more clearly defined. If anything, definition and explanation ... the real role of our class and it's paths ... is what's lacking here.
That, and dungeon's are built pretty horrible. Of course they favor CW's. Have you run one recently? That's the worst, simplest and most mind numbing AI system I've ever seen. It's like watching SciFi channel. Once you've watched Giant Shark Vs. Crocodile, you can guess the plot of Anaconda vs. Giant Squid and Pterodactyl Vs. Giant Killer Bees. Horribly unimaginative and repetitious.
I think our class isn't bad at all. It's great. But we could use a bit more refinement.
Instigator already suffers from single target. At-wills/encounters and feats dictate that AOE was weak vs single target and vice versa. Roaring against one target gave me AP for hitting one target. There was no reason to remove AP per target on an AOE skill.
Now I get the same amount of AP REGARDLESS of targets. Pre nerf I was King of wading into a sea of mobs and wrecking face. Now I can wade into a sea of mobs and watch every other class generate two dailies while I am STILL working on my first. Just bow down to the TR playing developers. They could not stand watching a GWF out dps them in an AOE setting. Now single target is superior to AOE.
Exceptional players that know how to properly do DPS rotations know why some players are able to do amazing DPS. The issue is these exceptions players are rare in this community and so the average community is stuck running team comps to compensate for their lack of experience.
Exceptional players that know how to properly do DPS rotations know why some players are able to do amazing DPS. The issue is these exceptions players are rare in this community and so the average community is stuck running team comps to compensate for their lack of experience.
The top 1% players know even more.
Before the AP per target nerf there was no class/spec or role that could unseat me as King of AOE dps. I know my role and I know my rotations. The only thing that changed was being caped at AP for only 1 target. Now equal skill/geared TRs can put out more damage in a run than I can due to the nerf.
Before the AP per target nerf there was no class/spec or role that could unseat me as King of AOE dps. I know my role and I know my rotations. The only thing that changed was being caped at AP for only 1 target. Now equal skill/geared TRs can put out more damage in a run than I can due to the nerf.
I don't think anyone can deny that the damage was reduced. And I will happily argue that our AP gain should include each target and has been significantly nerfed. But taking us from the king of the damage charts doesn't mean we were ruined.
That's why I feel that those who learned to play post patch and who can still make it work aren't wrong, but are embracing a perfectly viable and outstanding class and using it for all it's capabilities, and those players who were before the patch simply haven't adapted.
I see most of the complaints from these players as a sign that they miss their awesomeness ... and some definitely argued, their OP status ... and they will probably come back and realize that, OP or not, they are still a great class.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Before the AP per target nerf there was no class/spec or role that could unseat me as King of AOE dps. I know my role and I know my rotations. The only thing that changed was being caped at AP for only 1 target. Now equal skill/geared TRs can put out more damage in a run than I can due to the nerf.
If you are so amazing why are you having issues being #1 Damage?
If you refuse to respec / regear to regain your "King of AoE" Title then that's your problem.
I think the main problem is... we are here, a few high end players, discussing over our high end player views, but the 95% of the players are not us, they are somewhere between awful and just slightly underpracticed, unless cryptic nerfs singularity to the ground (maybe limiting their targets to 5? ) GWFs,GFs and even TRs are just some guys the wizards take with them to the parties...
I think the main problem is... we are here, a few high end players, discussing over our high end player views, but the 95% of the players are not us, they are somewhere between awful and just slightly underpracticed, unless cryptic nerfs singularity to the ground (maybe limiting their targets to 5? ) GWFs,GFs and even TRs are just some guys the wizards take with them to the parties...
Are you serious?
GWF/GF/TR does most of their damage because of Sing.
When you have an entire pack in 1 small group with TR/GF/GWF burning the mobs so fast they melt before sing completes. So you can go from pack to pack really fast. With a group of CW's it takes them forever in comparison to burn the trash down.
If you don't have sing the mobs are all over the place and damage isn't focused into small AoE. Your group only needs 1 really good CW or 2 CW's and replace the TR as GWF does more damage.
then why some guilds are running 4xCWs Dc groups on CN MC? is because permanent singularity on is just ridiculous, all HV sets = seven million HV stacks and mobs and bosses melt, Arcane singularity is right now the same Astral shield was in open beta, the spell that all game revolves arround, obviously, again, players like you, me, or any other superexperienced players, who have a good friend list of likewise exp players, will still find our groups without problem always, but again... we are the exception, someone has to change for the majority of the GWFs arround to get into groups easily.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Destroyer is single target and PVP. The AOE DPS role is Instigator. People really need to understand that point.
There was no other role or class that came close to the amount of DPS I dished out. Now that AP generation is nerfed there is one class that now beats me in AOE damage. That is an equally geared/skilled TR. Nothing wrong with a single target class putting out more damage than an AOE class....right? RIGHT?
Destroyer is not just for single target.... it is THE AOE build. You are giving people bad advice here. Being spec'd into instigator instead of destroyer is just gimping your character.
I don't have a single point into Instigator. The first 4 feats (20 points) are beyond worthless.
You had to TINKER significantly to get to this build, eventhough you were in a Destroyer spec before. So you went from a Destroyer spec that lost 30% damage after the recent patch to a Destroyer build that now tops dps charts again. Wow, I didn't know there was such a wide spectrum of Destroyer builds. I think it would be enlightening for everyone to show us the transformation. How much AD you spent on what? The points you moved within the tree that gave you such a huge dps jump? After all, someone with your experience should have a lot more to offer. With regards to the Bronzewood, I will not derail the thread even further. You're happy swinging a weapon that applies 10seconds debuff, and another 10seconds of nothing, that's your choice. I will wallow with my imaginary GWF, doing imaginary things, pretending I am doing good dps using ineffective enchants. I guess I was extremely lucky just randomly putting points in feats to come up with this and saved myself a TON of AD and months of Tinkering.
So just so we're all clear, and after your TINKERing, as of today 9/3/2013 do GWF completely suck and are a dead class, or still viable and can still top damage? Because I am sure many people are confused which side of the fence you're on right now.
Yes there are alot of different ways to build a destroyer.. If you don't understand that then I'm wasting my time...
Feats, encounters, enchantments, weapon/armor enchants, stats, sets, boons, encounter rotations.
Should I continue??
And you were the one pre patch claiming that the mitigation on slam was going to be amazing.. It wasn't...
Now you say you can get capped DR without slam. Your opinions don't make sense and are in conflict with each other
My position has always been the same.. And I'm trying to make the best out of a very bad situation..
The reason I can still top charts is because I have invested heavily in it. Something most ppl can't.. So if I have to do that in order to make the toon decent. Then that isn't fair on the other GWfs cause most can't..
My position since that dreaded patch has always been the same.. You would rather listen to your own voice rather than anyone else's
GWF/GF/TR does most of their damage because of Sing.
When you have an entire pack in 1 small group with TR/GF/GWF burning the mobs so fast they melt before sing completes. So you can go from pack to pack really fast. With a group of CW's it takes them forever in comparison to burn the trash down.
If you don't have sing the mobs are all over the place and damage isn't focused into small AoE. Your group only needs 1 really good CW or 2 CW's and replace the TR as GWF does more damage.
so lets say new gwf starts to play how long would it take that he gears up so he can contribute to the party and be viable...if he plays 5 hours every day at least 6 monts if very skilled.and only pve no pvp at all.coz i had gwf speced for pvp but also full avatar stone all the best HAMSTER and still wasnt full viable...sometimes cant beat 10gs cw in dps.just dont tell me i cant play coz i was a monster in pvp.so you need full gear full pve spec to be good and still going to be bad in pvp...i think that is just way to little.coz you never know when its over to so...
"The reason I can still top charts is because I have invested heavily in it. Something most ppl can't"
Working as intended?
well this was my whole point HAMSTER tr with those little ice daggers and pvp 2 gear lesser vorpal can do any t2 will be invited in a sec. and have a lott of fun in pvp.and gwf with same is just sad to look at.and no matter the skill you cant pvp with les then 31hp now you just cant.before was possible (not in best of premades tho) if they just nerfed sent tree np you could go around that but to touch ustoppable worst move in the game,
When I heard them messing with stealth for TRs. I knew GWFs were in trouble. 2 very important mechanics for each respective class getting messed with too much worried me. It will only foreshadow to what length they may change classes.
When I heard them messing with stealth for TRs. I knew GWFs were in trouble. 2 very important mechanics for each respective class getting messed with too much worried me. It will only foreshadow to what length they may change classes.
that was the only thing that low gs gwf had...so sad
Too bad for you i DIDN'T write that they should be "the only class with AoE". I wrote that they should be the primary AoE damage dealers. Other classes would still do some AoE damage, but much lower than the GWF. Changing what people say and changing the reality of how things go in the game, won't make your argument right. DCs are primary healers. GFs are primary tanks. TR are primary DPS. CWs are primary cc and, right now, primary AoE. GWFs are primary nothing, and that's why they are the least wanted class in a party. Again, that's reality.
My suggestion is that the CWs in PvE should be able to cc and deal some damage, but the GWF should be the class needed to really deliver AoE DPS to take down the adds.
Right now, parties are shifting to multiple CWs and GWF are consistently being left out of epic dungoens. Again, reality proves that you're wrong and that's seriously something that must be changed, and that CWs design and GWF design should be changed to give a role to the latter, and to make the first just a specialized class and not a "we-do-everything" class.
As copti said, it's already too bad that in some dungeons all you need are CWs to push mobs off a cliff. But if they are also the main asset in dungeons where you can't do that, just cause they can both cc and AoE DPS, then something is wrong.
If you can't admit it, you're just out of reality. No offence.
If you can't admit that cryptic made 2 versions of tank classes then you're just out of reality. Don't you understand that more and more classes will be added to this game? At some point there will be several healing classes and several striker classes to choose from. Just so happens that they rolled with 2 tanking classes to start out. Did they do a crappy job with the GWF tanking abilities... I don't know but I suspect so. Did they do a crappy job of designing the dungeons so that all classes are needed... Well hell yes of course they did. Making you the kings of AoE still won't get you into groups but many of you are too stubborn and blinded by ignorant rage to understand this. You need your utility fixed first. If you were a striker class then your main utility would be your damage, but you're not and you never will be. Make tanking viable and needed by both fixing class mechanics and redesigning the dungeons. This is your only hope of truly being desired by most groups.
GWFs are still doing respectable damage, just behind CWs and still ahead of TRs in AoE packed dungeons. Some of you act like you're barely beating the healer. And for the record, CWs die at least twice as much in dungeons like MC than the GWFs do. You act like we have godly range that keeps us safe, well a good portion of our spells require us to stand clearly in harms way to reach the mobs (steal time, icy terrain to name a few). Not to mention we have to dodge the same red HAMSTER as you do and generally have way more of the aggro on us anyway. So don't keep playing the danger card with respects to who should do the most damage.
Oh and by the way... You know who repeatedly gets crapped on in this game? It's the clerics. They get nerfed every single patch.
If you can't admit that cryptic made 2 versions of tank classes then you're just out of reality. Don't you understand that more and more classes will be added to this game? At some point there will be several healing classes and several striker classes to choose from. Just so happens that they rolled with 2 tanking classes to start out. Did they do a crappy job with the GWF tanking abilities... I don't know but I suspect so. Did they do a crappy job of designing the dungeons so that all classes are needed... Well hell yes of course they did. Making you the kings of AoE still won't get you into groups but many of you are too stubborn and blinded by ignorant rage to understand this. You need your utility fixed first. If you were a striker class then your main utility would be your damage, but you're not and you never will be. Make tanking viable and needed by both fixing class mechanics and redesigning the dungeons. This is your only hope of truly being desired by most groups.
GWFs are still doing respectable damage, just behind CWs and still ahead of TRs in AoE packed dungeons. Some of you act like you're barely beating the healer. And for the record, CWs die at least twice as much in dungeons like MC than the GWFs do. You act like we have godly range that keeps us safe, well a good portion of our spells require us to stand clearly in harms way to reach the mobs (steal time, icy terrain to name a few). Not to mention we have to dodge the same red HAMSTER as you do and generally have way more of the aggro on us anyway. So don't keep playing the danger card with respects to who should do the most damage.
Oh and by the way... You know who repeatedly gets crapped on in this game? It's the clerics. They get nerfed every single patch.
when they HAMSTER on clerics , they HAMSTER on everyone.
My only wish from the devs is that they fix what is wrong with GWF abilities before they nerf them.
Exceptional players that know how to properly do DPS rotations know why some players are able to do amazing DPS. The issue is these exceptions players are rare in this community and so the average community is stuck running team comps to compensate for their lack of experience.
Time to kick your CW. If you were 1st in damage you should really re-think inviting the TR and CW again. There is no way GWF could be 1st on this patch(and I thing some CWs will know what I am talking about ).
GWFs are still doing respectable damage, just behind CWs and still ahead of TRs in AoE packed dungeons.
Dungeons? Where did you see gwfs in dungeons?
I'd say DCs are doing more damage than gwfs in dungeons. Consider one day of dungeonning of all the gwfs and all the DCs on the whole server. Which class delivered more damage?
In other words, ask Karrundax how much damage he took from gwfs, and how much from DCs yesterday?
Dungeons? Where did you see gwfs in dungeons?
I'd say DCs are doing more damage than gwfs in dungeons. Consider one day of dungeonning of all the gwfs and all the DCs on the whole server. Which class delivered more damage?
In other words, ask Karrundax how much damage he took from gwfs, and how much from DCs yesterday?
Individually, GWF's seem to be doing fine.
If your talking about usage per playerbase, though, I think you are probably right. But if Cryptic is buffing and nerfing simply on usage analytics, well ... can't you see where that would fail? And personally, it kinda feels like that's what they are doing anyhow.
I don't play a GF, not because they suck, but because they don't fit my playstyle. I don't think I'm any kind of majority, but shouldn't there be a class or two that fits me, even if the majority of other players just don't get it?
Sounds like an old saying I'll paraphrase: democracy is little more than mob rule, but Republics are built to protect the minorities from the majorities.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Dungeons? Where did you see gwfs in dungeons? I'd say DCs are doing more damage than gwfs in dungeons. Consider one day of dungeonning of all the gwfs and all the DCs on the whole server. Which class delivered more damage?
In other words, ask Karrundax how much damage he took from gwfs, and how much from DCs yesterday?
What??? By the end of the run I'm easily 10 million ahead of the DC.
Destroyer is not just for single target.... it is THE AOE build. You are giving people bad advice here. Being spec'd into instigator instead of destroyer is just gimping your character.
I don't have a single point into Instigator. The first 4 feats (20 points) are beyond worthless.
You are going to tell the world how your at-wills are superior to my at-wills? I don't see where you get up to an additional 25% damage depending on amount of mobs hit with Wicked Strike. I also don't see you garnering an additional 5% damage and 5% crit chance on Combat Advantaged targets. I run close to 40% crit before I use Not So Fast which also hits 10% harder and gives Combat Advantage and is an AOE encounter. That puts me at 45% crit chance. Add a TR and I push 50% crit chance.
Destroyer is geared more towards single target not AOE build. The only reason you don't feel the pain of the AP generation is all your reduced cooldowns.
Comments
Just, NO. Takedown has 3 seconds prone effect. Slow down doesn't last a lot too. Stunning flourish is 1 second. Even if you put all those skills into your bar, they don't even come close to the cc of GFs, let alone CWs. Your argument is out of reality. Also: yes, each class tips into other classes. Tips. A GWF doesn't have the tanking and kiting capability of a GF (apart from sentinel builds with 37k hp, regen 10%. That's the only build that can out-tank a gf in PvP, and just cause devs didn't properly test how such high hp would work with regen+ unstoppable). Also, GWF single target damage doesn't even come close to a TR DPS.
While CW AoE DPS equals or surpasses the GWF AoE damage.
So, one thing is if your class has a bit of the ability of another class. Another thing is if your class has its own ability plus another ability at the same, of higher level of another class. To be more honest it's as if a GWF could cc as long as a CW, or burst DPS as much as a TR.
@ copticons: i won't be rude, so i won't say it's BS. But i'll say i don't really think that a destroyer would be able to tank a Group of lvl 65 mobs from an epic t2 dungeon with life steal alone, even if it's at 10%. Do you have a video? Would help.
So you say that CWs are the class that can pile up in a dungeon for max efficiency. Which just confirms that they have too much efficiency in PvE. You also said it's just because dungeons are designed for them. Well, then explain why there's another guy in the forum that reported this: GWFs are being left out of MC cause parties now pile up 4 CWs. Isn't MC supposed to shrink the gap? No? So not even dungeon design can put CWs on par with other classes? May be cause the can both CC and AoE DPS, being the best at 2 things?
Here you go:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?473631-Malabogs-Castle-groups-Exclude-the-GWF
I don't want to be rude, but copti, kidbs & co, it just looks like you didn't play the class (copti may be your main is a CW like your signature suggest), cause all i read are assumptions and stuff that really do not match how things go in game. Also, each of you actually have a different main role for the GWF: one says it's a tank, the other it's a DPS, the other says it's a hybrid...
What i wrote is quite simple: there's a fact, and the fact is that CWs are almost monopolizing dungeons, while GWFs are consistently left out and seen as not needed. It's not just cause some dungeons let them push mobs off the edge. It's cause while all classes are the best at 1 thing only, CWs are the best at 2 things, and GWFs are the best at nothing. So just 1 of the 2 things CWs are the best at, should be the GWF specialty. So that CWs would be primary cc as they're now, but not also primary AoE DPSrs.
This way you wouldn't see parties with 4 CWs and 1 DC, and GWFs would have a role in PvE.
MC was supposed to be a dungeon designed to let each class be useful, and instead it's turning out in another CW fest.
If you still think that it's ok, then there's nothing else that i, or the other guys that brought facts to you, can say to make you change your mind. Have fun playing your CWs and prepare to have 1 less class in game.
There was no other role or class that came close to the amount of DPS I dished out. Now that AP generation is nerfed there is one class that now beats me in AOE damage. That is an equally geared/skilled TR. Nothing wrong with a single target class putting out more damage than an AOE class....right? RIGHT?
90% of the player's base consider them useless: they're useless.
Its harder to destroy an atom than destroy a prejudice.
Lol so now the playerbase is being "classist" against the poor GWF's? It doesn't matter how much damage whatever spec does b/c aoe damage alone doesn't matter!!! It has no bearing on whether your group does well or not and that is why GWF's are not wanted. Doesn't matter if they did double the damage they do now, they would still not be taken as is to most dungeons b/c it's still faster w/o them. The useful role that a GWF could fill with the right gear and enchants is the tank in instances where that is needed. But everyone seems to want to be top DPS... that is why you're unwanted, b/c aoe DPS by itself with no CC can't hold a candle to the needed boss damage of a TR or the CC of a CW.
I have a GWF, he is PvP only b/c that's what he's good at. I don't want to spend the money to make him a good PvE tank, I have other characters to do PvE.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I don't play a CW, but it seems to me from reading your posts that you have more of an interest in removing the capabilities of one class.
I agree that, from my experience (which is fact, though not backed up by any hard stats mind you), CW's are a preference for dungeons. A GWF can do just fine, but with the way Cryptic floods dungeons with adds that are mostly susceptible to CC, it's no wonder CW's have such a high preference rate. Those are the two things they do well.
I would also use, in my argument for more aoe output from GWF's, that any melee class should be more capable of doing DPS than any ranged class. Why? Ranged nukes are op because their initial strength ... range. That GWF has to fight his way to the middle of that pack, taking hits while he's at it. So if it were up to me, point for point GWF's would out AOE CW's by a long margin.
But if we're pushing so hard for our class to improve, we have to be fair ... something I found most lacking in these class arguments. Buff our AOE? Fine. Make us the king of AOE damage? Cool. But what do we lose?
We're burst tanks capable, with the right talents and player skill, of out doing all but the top 10% of GF's. We've got single-point DPS that outdoes every class but TR's. We'd be the king of AOE, leaving only CW's to compete with us. AND, we'd still be the most mobile class on the block.
Because this very post has shown that several players, playing different ways, feel the GWF is an extremely effective and underrated class. Some play it as a tank, some as a skirmisher, some as AOE/mob control.
Should we be so good at it all? Where's the balance for the other classes then?
One point I think can be made: specializing in paragon paths should give us our advantage in two fields. Sentinel should have some penalties that affect our movement capabilities. Destroyer should raise our single point DPS up, but lose CC. Instigator becomes the mob fit, but loses single-point dps.
The trade off needs to be more clearly defined. If anything, definition and explanation ... the real role of our class and it's paths ... is what's lacking here.
That, and dungeon's are built pretty horrible. Of course they favor CW's. Have you run one recently? That's the worst, simplest and most mind numbing AI system I've ever seen. It's like watching SciFi channel. Once you've watched Giant Shark Vs. Crocodile, you can guess the plot of Anaconda vs. Giant Squid and Pterodactyl Vs. Giant Killer Bees. Horribly unimaginative and repetitious.
I think our class isn't bad at all. It's great. But we could use a bit more refinement.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
That's the bigger problem.
Tell cryptic to post a message stating they are going to remove CW AP gain in the next patch. Put it in the patch notes. Then remove .5% of the gain amount.
The class will almost die overnight as players reroll and start telling each other how horrible it is.
Though to also be honest ... GWF ap gain is stupid slow.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Lol no b/c CW's are an integral part of the team comp for pretty much every dungeon, not to mention they did get AP gain nerfed as well this patch, as did DC's. Pretty much every spell that gave more AP based on how many targets it hit was nerfed to only get a flat amount. This is for all classes.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Instigator already suffers from single target. At-wills/encounters and feats dictate that AOE was weak vs single target and vice versa. Roaring against one target gave me AP for hitting one target. There was no reason to remove AP per target on an AOE skill.
Now I get the same amount of AP REGARDLESS of targets. Pre nerf I was King of wading into a sea of mobs and wrecking face. Now I can wade into a sea of mobs and watch every other class generate two dailies while I am STILL working on my first. Just bow down to the TR playing developers. They could not stand watching a GWF out dps them in an AOE setting. Now single target is superior to AOE.
Exceptional players that know how to properly do DPS rotations know why some players are able to do amazing DPS. The issue is these exceptions players are rare in this community and so the average community is stuck running team comps to compensate for their lack of experience.
The top 1% players know even more.
Before the AP per target nerf there was no class/spec or role that could unseat me as King of AOE dps. I know my role and I know my rotations. The only thing that changed was being caped at AP for only 1 target. Now equal skill/geared TRs can put out more damage in a run than I can due to the nerf.
I don't think anyone can deny that the damage was reduced. And I will happily argue that our AP gain should include each target and has been significantly nerfed. But taking us from the king of the damage charts doesn't mean we were ruined.
That's why I feel that those who learned to play post patch and who can still make it work aren't wrong, but are embracing a perfectly viable and outstanding class and using it for all it's capabilities, and those players who were before the patch simply haven't adapted.
I see most of the complaints from these players as a sign that they miss their awesomeness ... and some definitely argued, their OP status ... and they will probably come back and realize that, OP or not, they are still a great class.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
If you are so amazing why are you having issues being #1 Damage?
If you refuse to respec / regear to regain your "King of AoE" Title then that's your problem.
Are you serious?
GWF/GF/TR does most of their damage because of Sing.
When you have an entire pack in 1 small group with TR/GF/GWF burning the mobs so fast they melt before sing completes. So you can go from pack to pack really fast. With a group of CW's it takes them forever in comparison to burn the trash down.
If you don't have sing the mobs are all over the place and damage isn't focused into small AoE. Your group only needs 1 really good CW or 2 CW's and replace the TR as GWF does more damage.
Destroyer is not just for single target.... it is THE AOE build. You are giving people bad advice here. Being spec'd into instigator instead of destroyer is just gimping your character.
I don't have a single point into Instigator. The first 4 feats (20 points) are beyond worthless.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Yes there are alot of different ways to build a destroyer.. If you don't understand that then I'm wasting my time...
Feats, encounters, enchantments, weapon/armor enchants, stats, sets, boons, encounter rotations.
Should I continue??
And you were the one pre patch claiming that the mitigation on slam was going to be amazing.. It wasn't...
Now you say you can get capped DR without slam. Your opinions don't make sense and are in conflict with each other
My position has always been the same.. And I'm trying to make the best out of a very bad situation..
The reason I can still top charts is because I have invested heavily in it. Something most ppl can't.. So if I have to do that in order to make the toon decent. Then that isn't fair on the other GWfs cause most can't..
My position since that dreaded patch has always been the same.. You would rather listen to your own voice rather than anyone else's
So good luck to u
so lets say new gwf starts to play how long would it take that he gears up so he can contribute to the party and be viable...if he plays 5 hours every day at least 6 monts if very skilled.and only pve no pvp at all.coz i had gwf speced for pvp but also full avatar stone all the best HAMSTER and still wasnt full viable...sometimes cant beat 10gs cw in dps.just dont tell me i cant play coz i was a monster in pvp.so you need full gear full pve spec to be good and still going to be bad in pvp...i think that is just way to little.coz you never know when its over to so...
Working as intended?
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
well this was my whole point HAMSTER tr with those little ice daggers and pvp 2 gear lesser vorpal can do any t2 will be invited in a sec. and have a lott of fun in pvp.and gwf with same is just sad to look at.and no matter the skill you cant pvp with les then 31hp now you just cant.before was possible (not in best of premades tho) if they just nerfed sent tree np you could go around that but to touch ustoppable worst move in the game,
When I heard them messing with stealth for TRs. I knew GWFs were in trouble. 2 very important mechanics for each respective class getting messed with too much worried me. It will only foreshadow to what length they may change classes.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
that was the only thing that low gs gwf had...so sad
If you can't admit that cryptic made 2 versions of tank classes then you're just out of reality. Don't you understand that more and more classes will be added to this game? At some point there will be several healing classes and several striker classes to choose from. Just so happens that they rolled with 2 tanking classes to start out. Did they do a crappy job with the GWF tanking abilities... I don't know but I suspect so. Did they do a crappy job of designing the dungeons so that all classes are needed... Well hell yes of course they did. Making you the kings of AoE still won't get you into groups but many of you are too stubborn and blinded by ignorant rage to understand this. You need your utility fixed first. If you were a striker class then your main utility would be your damage, but you're not and you never will be. Make tanking viable and needed by both fixing class mechanics and redesigning the dungeons. This is your only hope of truly being desired by most groups.
GWFs are still doing respectable damage, just behind CWs and still ahead of TRs in AoE packed dungeons. Some of you act like you're barely beating the healer. And for the record, CWs die at least twice as much in dungeons like MC than the GWFs do. You act like we have godly range that keeps us safe, well a good portion of our spells require us to stand clearly in harms way to reach the mobs (steal time, icy terrain to name a few). Not to mention we have to dodge the same red HAMSTER as you do and generally have way more of the aggro on us anyway. So don't keep playing the danger card with respects to who should do the most damage.
Oh and by the way... You know who repeatedly gets crapped on in this game? It's the clerics. They get nerfed every single patch.
when they HAMSTER on clerics , they HAMSTER on everyone.
My only wish from the devs is that they fix what is wrong with GWF abilities before they nerf them.
Time to kick your CW. If you were 1st in damage you should really re-think inviting the TR and CW again. There is no way GWF could be 1st on this patch(and I thing some CWs will know what I am talking about ).
Dungeons? Where did you see gwfs in dungeons?
I'd say DCs are doing more damage than gwfs in dungeons. Consider one day of dungeonning of all the gwfs and all the DCs on the whole server. Which class delivered more damage?
In other words, ask Karrundax how much damage he took from gwfs, and how much from DCs yesterday?
Individually, GWF's seem to be doing fine.
If your talking about usage per playerbase, though, I think you are probably right. But if Cryptic is buffing and nerfing simply on usage analytics, well ... can't you see where that would fail? And personally, it kinda feels like that's what they are doing anyhow.
I don't play a GF, not because they suck, but because they don't fit my playstyle. I don't think I'm any kind of majority, but shouldn't there be a class or two that fits me, even if the majority of other players just don't get it?
Sounds like an old saying I'll paraphrase: democracy is little more than mob rule, but Republics are built to protect the minorities from the majorities.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
What??? By the end of the run I'm easily 10 million ahead of the DC.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
You are going to tell the world how your at-wills are superior to my at-wills? I don't see where you get up to an additional 25% damage depending on amount of mobs hit with Wicked Strike. I also don't see you garnering an additional 5% damage and 5% crit chance on Combat Advantaged targets. I run close to 40% crit before I use Not So Fast which also hits 10% harder and gives Combat Advantage and is an AOE encounter. That puts me at 45% crit chance. Add a TR and I push 50% crit chance.
Destroyer is geared more towards single target not AOE build. The only reason you don't feel the pain of the AP generation is all your reduced cooldowns.