Ultimate frustration

hexagar

The game is already out for 10 days and we had numerous patches and downtimes
However im very surprised to see that they didn't apply a single line amongst class balance

This game has PvP so there must be some kind of balance in it and sadly at this state there is no balance at all...
As u probably understood i don't play aTR . At this state the game makes me avoid pvp
But the balance issues are everywhere... Rogues can one hit everything and i have 9k gearscore with full pvp
Gear..

Everything in pvp is a mess tbh .. CW have a ton of CC making the game a cc festival .
Clerics can overheal almost any dmg in a teamfight and rogues are one shooting everything (i once ate 32k dmg
From a single hit and i wear mail...) not to mention the silence spam in teamfights ..

Cryptic u have a nicely done game but u need to balance it alot ... We r close to see new classes implemented
But the existing ones are blocked as hell ...

I would like to hear your opinion on the subject guys, thnx for the long read..



Hexagar

imivo

Sounds like you play a GWF. Check the link in my signature below, there is a GWF guide for PvP with videos.

rhoric

This game is primarily pve. PVP is only a side area. When stuff gets nerfed from pvp it affects those that play pve only. When it affects the main player base, people leave.

njgreen123456

Neverwinter isn't ment to be a solo game for its group content. I look at the PVP as group content. I play a DC and when I pvp, (not very often) I stick with my group I hardly ever lone wolf on a point. I know I'll get blown away by a rogue, I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me.

This is where a group mechanic comes into play. If I roll into a point with a team then there is hardly ever a problem about balance. The PVP while not perfect is balanced in a 'sense' Yes a rogue should do the most damge, they are the only Striker in this game. Yes the Wizard should have all the CC it could ever need, they are a Controller. Yes the Cleric should be a healing/Buffing machine they are the Leader. If every class could do everything why even have classes to begin with? I have never once joined into a PVP match and expected to top kills, heals, assists, and caps with no deaths. That would stupid to expect that. I almost always expect to loose to a rogue if caught by myself with no other teammates, just like I always expect to be able to heal past a GF or GWF.

We don't need to nerf the classes, what we need to do is retool the queing system. Ideally each team should have 2 strikers, 1 CC 1 Leader and 1 Defender. It just doesn't always work out that way. It has nothing to do with the classes, just the team make-up.

devlinne

njgreen123456 wrote: »

Neverwinter isn't ment to be a solo game for its group content. I look at the PVP as group content. I play a DC and when I pvp, (not very often) I stick with my group I hardly ever lone wolf on a point. I know I'll get blown away by a rogue, I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me.

This is where a group mechanic comes into play. If I roll into a point with a team then there is hardly ever a problem about balance. The PVP while not perfect is balanced in a 'sense' Yes a rogue should do the most damge, they are the only Striker in this game. Yes the Wizard should have all the CC it could ever need, they are a Controller. Yes the Cleric should be a healing/Buffing machine they are the Leader. If every class could do everything why even have classes to begin with? I have never once joined into a PVP match and expected to top kills, heals, assists, and caps with no deaths. That would stupid to expect that. I almost always expect to loose to a rogue if caught by myself with no other teammates, just like I always expect to be able to heal past a GF or GWF.

We don't need to nerf the classes, what we need to do is retool the queing system. Ideally each team should have 2 strikers, 1 CC 1 Leader and 1 Defender. It just doesn't always work out that way. It has nothing to do with the classes, just the team make-up.

This is true. Well said sir.

Problem is......EVERYONE wants to be CONAN THE BARBARIAN....and solo an ARMY...-__-

xylithan

njgreen123456 wrote: »

Neverwinter isn't ment to be a solo game for its group content. I look at the PVP as group content. I play a DC and when I pvp, (not very often) I stick with my group I hardly ever lone wolf on a point. I know I'll get blown away by a rogue, I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me.

This is where a group mechanic comes into play. If I roll into a point with a team then there is hardly ever a problem about balance. The PVP while not perfect is balanced in a 'sense' Yes a rogue should do the most damge, they are the only Striker in this game. Yes the Wizard should have all the CC it could ever need, they are a Controller. Yes the Cleric should be a healing/Buffing machine they are the Leader. If every class could do everything why even have classes to begin with? I have never once joined into a PVP match and expected to top kills, heals, assists, and caps with no deaths. That would stupid to expect that. I almost always expect to loose to a rogue if caught by myself with no other teammates, just like I always expect to be able to heal past a GF or GWF.

We don't need to nerf the classes, what we need to do is retool the queing system. Ideally each team should have 2 strikers, 1 CC 1 Leader and 1 Defender. It just doesn't always work out that way. It has nothing to do with the classes, just the team make-up.

To be honest you kind of made the OP's point.

"I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me."

So what is the GWF role in PvP? Guardian's can disrupt quite well, CW CC, Rogue's uber damage and CC, Cleric heals, GWF....dies?

njgreen123456

xylithan wrote: »

To be honest you kind of made the OP's point.

"I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me."

So what is the GWF role in PvP? Guardian's can disrupt quite well, CW CC, Rogue's uber damage and CC, Cleric heals, GWF....dies?

As a Cleric I know I can laugh at a GWF, because I can out heal their damage. 1V1. You toss in a group, GWF has a lot of advantages in that sense. Again, teamwork is what is needed not buffing or nerfing. No one class should run solo in a PVP match.

So no I didn't prove OP's point. I disproved it. If I would have been proving his point I would have said, "As a cleric I just laugh at every class and heal it all." I gave reactions for a Cleric against all the classes, except another cleric. Which in the case of fighting another cleric I go on my A-game and hope my spec, gear, and skill is better then that clerics' and that determines the out-come.

adozu

do you often get oneshot by rogues from -full health-? because if the 32k is from shocking execution it only gets such high damage when you're already below 40% hp left or so. shocking execution against a 100% health target is unlikely to hit for more than 40% total hp. the only time i personally as a tr managed to properly "oneshot" an opponent at lvl60 was using lurker assault, stealth against a cleric that was far from the fight and had no buff on and hit him with lashing blade. and that probably was a very high damage roll against a poorly equipped and unbuffed enemy because it never occurred to me again.

i think many people overblow the pvp balance "issue". sure, TR deal a lot of damage but only so against unsuspecting enemies, in open faced 1vs1 not quite as much, as soon as a cleric hits the astral shield button my damage becomes a laugh and i'm forced to leave the area (unless they have the worst gear ever), if they also hit hallowed ground they literally recover more health per second than damage i can deal. wizards shield also saves them against many surprise attacks and then it's cc-fest.

cleric, rogue and wizard all look unbalanced to me taken individually but that's what makes it ok, all 3 can potentially be OP and potentially suck. the only issue comes from guardian fighters which admittedly can only hold towers well and clerics do it better and gwf which still has not a very definite role.

hexagar

njgreen123456 wrote: »

Neverwinter isn't ment to be a solo game for its group content. I look at the PVP as group content. I play a DC and when I pvp, (not very often) I stick with my group I hardly ever lone wolf on a point. I know I'll get blown away by a rogue, I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me.

This is where a group mechanic comes into play. If I roll into a point with a team then there is hardly ever a problem about balance. The PVP while not perfect is balanced in a 'sense' Yes a rogue should do the most damge, they are the only Striker in this game. Yes the Wizard should have all the CC it could ever need, they are a Controller. Yes the Cleric should be a healing/Buffing machine they are the Leader. If every class could do everything why even have classes to begin with? I have never once joined into a PVP match and expected to top kills, heals, assists, and caps with no deaths. That would stupid to expect that. I almost always expect to loose to a rogue if caught by myself with no other teammates, just like I always expect to be able to heal past a GF or GWF.

We don't need to nerf the classes, what we need to do is retool the queing system. Ideally each team should have 2 strikers, 1 CC 1 Leader and 1 Defender. It just doesn't always work out that way. It has nothing to do with the classes, just the team make-up.

Well u play a healing.class and u can heal, your class is supposed to
be a team dependent class
But i play GWF and my class doesn't fit anywhere.. I cant hold dmg (im lucky if i stay alive foe more than 3 seconds )
I can't even kill a guardian even if he go afk or /emote laugh at me while i hit him..
GWF are strikers they are not tanks but i don't feel like one.. This thread is not
About Gwf its about balance but my only experience is from the eyes of a GWF

njgreen123456

hexagar wrote: »

Well u play a healing.class and i can heal, it class is supposed
be a team dependent class
But i play GWF and my class doesn't fit anywhere.. I cant hold dmg (im lucky if i stay alive foe more than 3 seconds )
I can't even kill a guardian even if he go afk or /emote laugh at me while i hit him..
GWF are strikers they are not tanks but i don't feel like one.. This thread is not
About Gwf its about balance but my only experience is from the eyes of a GWF

Best thing I can say to you about it is, check your gear, check your build, and learn the team dynamics better. While GWF hardly gets kills. I normally see a good one hardly ever die. You have one of the best dodge mechanics if you build it right. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a GWF run into a group cause not devastating damage, but damage or interrupted wizards and clerics from getting off that oh so important spell or heal. Then when the fire starts to be focused on them... BAM they sprint out of the entire conflict like there were never there.

PVP in Neverwinter is about Teamwork... And knowing how to gear, build, and play your class.


Also; GWF is not a Striker. It's never be intended to be a Striker. Fighter is in every version is a Defender. Look up 4e rule set. Fighter = Defender. If anything, GWF is a Defender/Some what Controller hybrid of crazy. GWF has a mean learning curve to it... Its overcoming that, that is the real challenge.
Also for a side note; For the love of god fight ->on<- the point.

hexagar

So what u imply is that there is no need to balance the classes cause ppl wont like the tweaks ??

The starting point of any MMO should be class balance of some kind imho,
If u can't balance then don't make pvp content... If u make pvp content and ur balance
Is laughable then ppl will whine about it.

imivo

I am not sure that it is not balanced. The PvP here is not about 1v1, but 5v5. What does matter is the build and the gear. If you are undergeared or you use a PvE build/power setup, you will have more problems. The same happens if your team composition is worse than the opponent team's, e.g. they have a cleric and your group does not. As I said, there is a GWF PvP guide with a video and streams in my signature, if you would like inspiration for possible approaches.

njgreen123456

hexagar wrote: »

So what u imply is that there is no need to balance the classes cause ppl wont like the tweaks ??

The starting point of any MMO should be class balance of some kind imho,
If u can't balance then don't make pvp content... If u make pvp content and ur balance
Is laughable then ppl will whine about it.

Well first off; People are going to whine about if no matter if an issue exists or not. "I got killed in PVP because X, Nerf X, or I'll quit."
So your argument is invalid by the nature of people not wanting to ever lose at anything, period.

My point was that people need to learn to work as a team and play off of each other classes weakness and strengths to make the team win, not the individual. Play actual PnP D&D, build a Fighter with a huge sword and charge in by yourself with no support from anyone else. A good DM would smite you to death.

While I advocate that Neverwinter isn't a completely literal translation of the PnP D&D it does have more then a little in common with it. Teamwork being a big deal of what it shares. GWF isn't a striker, but team one up with a leader, controller, and a striker or two and that's a deadly combo. Same thing goes for A Leader or a controller in the reverse sense. If on my cleric I roll up into a team of others by myself am I going to do anything at all other then die? No. If A rogue attacks a group of others by himself is he just going to instantly obliterate everything? No he'll get some damage off then have to run or die as well.

I keep thinking everyone wants GWF to be like... and I hate to make this comparison... An Arms/Fury Warrior from WoW. That was a striker... GWF isn't a Striker.

njgreen123456

imivo wrote: »

I am not sure that it is not balanced. The PvP here is not about 1v1, but 5v5. What does matter is the build and the gear. If you are undergeared or you use a PvE build/power setup, you will have more problems. The same happens if your team composition is worse than the opponent team's, e.g. they have a cleric and your group does not. As I said, there is a GWF PvP guide with a video and streams in my signature, if you would like inspiration for possible approaches.

This guy understands. Go look at the stuff in his signature. The build I use for my cleric is even in there. I use the Min-Wiz build.

xylithan

njgreen123456 wrote: »

As a Cleric I know I can laugh at a GWF, because I can out heal their damage. 1V1. You toss in a group, GWF has a lot of advantages in that sense. Again, teamwork is what is needed not buffing or nerfing. No one class should run solo in a PVP match.

So no I didn't prove OP's point. I disproved it. If I would have been proving his point I would have said, "As a cleric I just laugh at every class and heal it all." I gave reactions for a Cleric against all the classes, except another cleric. Which in the case of fighting another cleric I go on my A-game and hope my spec, gear, and skill is better then that clerics' and that determines the out-come.

So you consider the state of the classes to be balanced? Is that what you're saying?

njgreen123456

xylithan wrote: »

So you consider the state of the classes to be balanced? Is that what you're saying?

Balanced for Teamwork, yes. Balanced for Solo 1v1? Not so much.

hexagar

njgreen123456 wrote: »

Best thing I can say to you about it is, check your gear, check your build, and learn the team dynamics better. While GWF hardly gets kills. I normally see a good one hardly ever die. You have one of the best dodge mechanics if you build it right. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a GWF run into a group cause not devastating damage, but damage or interrupted wizards and clerics from getting off that oh so important spell or heal. Then when the fire starts to be focused on them... BAM they sprint out of the entire conflict like there were never there.

PVP in Neverwinter is about Teamwork... And knowing how to gear, build, and play your class.


Also; GWF is not a Striker. It's never be intended to be a Striker. Fighter is in every version is a Defender. Look up 4e rule set. Fighter = Defender. If anything, GWF is a Defender/Some what Controller hybrid of crazy. GWF has a mean learning curve to it... Its overcoming that, that is the real challenge.
Also for a side note; For the love of god fight ->on<- the point.

As for the gear i have what cryptic thinks is the ideal pvp gear for the GWF (EPIC PvP gear) which btw is not a tanks gear but strikers.So by telling me that GWF is not a sticker u either never played one or u simply defy what cryptic ment with that class..


As for the build, i never read guides, i always build my class however it suits me which imho is valid or else they needn't to have
Optional feats.. Anyway the best way to understand what in saying is to roll a GWF and "try" to PvP ..

Don't get me wrong, i ve been playing MMOS for 12 years and the current balance of the game is the worst i have seen since Age of Conan .

aethercharge

hexagar wrote: »

The game is already out for 10 days and we had numerous patches and downtimes
However im very surprised to see that they didn't apply a single line amongst class balance

This game has PvP so there must be some kind of balance in it and sadly at this state there is no balance at all...
As u probably understood i don't play aTR . At this state the game makes me avoid pvp
But the balance issues are everywhere... Rogues can one hit everything and i have 9k gearscore with full pvp
Gear..

Everything in pvp is a mess tbh .. CW have a ton of CC making the game a cc festival .
Clerics can overheal almost any dmg in a teamfight and rogues are one shooting everything (i once ate 32k dmg
From a single hit and i wear mail...) not to mention the silence spam in teamfights ..

Cryptic u have a nicely done game but u need to balance it alot ... We r close to see new classes implemented
But the existing ones are blocked as hell ...

I would like to hear your opinion on the subject guys, thnx for the long read..



Hexagar

Yes, some class balancing needs to be done. However, you also shouldn't assume that the "pvp" gear is the way to go for pvp. In many cases, there is much better gear available for pvp than the current pvp stuff.

imivo

How do you explain that not every GWF is having these same issues in PvP, though? As a CW at 60, I can say that some GWFs are absolutely deadly and that I have no chance against, while others are cakewalks. It is the same class, though, so the difference is either skill or build and powers selection, assuming the gear is the same (may not be, the T2+ gear is arguably better).

But, as has been said, this is a team activity. It is not about duelling. If you fight a GF and lose, which you probably will almost every time, then that does not mean that GFs need a nerf. It only raises the question why you were solo fighting a GF in the first place instead of doing something more team-oriented.

hexagar

So if i am reading well, u r telling me that the epic gear obtained via pvp is not the best solutions for pvp
Well that's somehow refreshing.. It must be the same reason why TR or DC are naked in some
Battlegrounds ... And still owning..right?

fullmetalpope

This pvp is bile spewing garbage. You cannot have the perfect balance for pvp in a pve based game unless you run separate numbers for each.
If you want pvp, go play DAOC or wait until Camelot Unchained launches in late 2015.

xylithan

njgreen123456 wrote: »

Balanced for Teamwork, yes. Balanced for Solo 1v1? Not so much.

Well good sir, I disagree.

imivo

hexagar wrote: »

So if i am reading well, u r telling me that the epic gear obtained via pvp is not the best solutions for pvp
Well that's somehow refreshing.. It must be the same reason why TR or DC are naked in some Battlegrounds ... And still owning..right?

No, that means they have their social clothing display active and removed the outfit, so they appear naked with just the weapon. The actual gear is still active and this is merely a visual thing.

hexagar

imivo wrote: »

No, that means they have their social clothing display active and removed the outfit, so they appear naked with just the weapon. The actual gear is still active and this is merely a visual thing.

Well... Lol... That is the case then... And i almost delete my char after being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by
A naked dwarf.. on a serious note i would be more than happy if i see some balance
In the upcoming patches.

abooselol

this game pvp is horrible. period. Wow had an awesome pvp, tera has, this game is for pve and roleplayers and pvp is there only to farm a free weapon.
That's why i play it totally casually, pvp has no future.

You say its a pve game? fine, don't put pvp in it. If you do, balance it.

imivo

abooselol wrote: »

Wow had an awesome pvp

I don't even know how to respond to this.

But perhaps you meant the modes and the rating system, and not the balance.

l3uck3t

xylithan wrote: »

To be honest you kind of made the OP's point.

"I know I'll be CC'ed to death by a rogue... I'll be annoyed by a GF, and I'll laugh at a GWF and heal everything he does to me."

So what is the GWF role in PvP? Guardian's can disrupt quite well, CW CC, Rogue's uber damage and CC, Cleric heals, GWF....dies?

You guys have great CC abilities later on

hexagar

l3uck3t wrote: »

You guys have great CC abilities later on

Man it doesnt go below 60... Lol ... M

njgreen123456

hexagar wrote: »

As for the gear i have what cryptic thinks is the ideal pvp gear for the GWF (EPIC PvP gear) which btw is not a tanks gear but strikers.So by telling me that GWF is not a sticker u either never played one or u simply defy what cryptic ment with that class..


As for the build, i never read guides, i always build my class however it suits me which imho is valid or else they needn't to have
Optional feats.. Anyway the best way to understand what in saying is to roll a GWF and "try" to PvP ..

Don't get me wrong, i ve been playing MMOS for 12 years and the current balance of the game is the worst i have seen since Age of Conan .

Actually, I've played GWF. By explaining all this stuff to you, it should have been obvious I've played one.

So what you are saying is you don't know how to play and build your class. From what you said you pick and build your class however you wish. Well when you do that and have people who are built correctly and not on a whim of course you are gonna be at disadvantage. That is your fault not the games.

As for saying the gear for GWF is striker gear, where does it say it on it? Does it say "Striker" or does it say "Great Weapon Fighter"? Or are you saying its Striker gear because it has Crit, Armor Pen, Power? Cause as a Leader I gear for Recovery, Crit, and Power. So does that mean now that my Leader role is now a Striker role? No. The class determines the role not the gear. That's basic knowledge.

GWF is not a Striker... if it was a striker you'd be a Striker. You are a Defender... A hybrid Defender/Controller possibly.

Good job on playing MMOs for 12 years. I'm honestly not impressed. I've been playing MMO's for years as well, and I've played D&D Since AD&D. Time frame of doing something has little knowledge when a new game comes out. Neverwinter isn't WoW, AoC, SWTOR, LOTRO, TSW, GW, or GW2, CoH, EQ, or EQ2. Neverwinter isn't Neverwinter Nights 3.

Neverwinter is Neverwinter, and it's about Teamwork... >Good< Teamwork. Why do you think Pre-made groups in PVP do so well? They are using good teamwork to pull it off. Go join a guild that's PVP based.

njgreen123456

xylithan wrote: »

Well good sir, I disagree.

You can disagree with me all you wish, good sir. I won't deny you that. I am just stating that this game is meant for a team not for a single lone wolf to be all full of heroics.

A hero dies; a unit survives.

hexagar

njgreen123456 wrote: »

Actually, I've played GWF. By explaining all this stuff to you, it should have been obvious I've played one.

So what you are saying is you don't know how to play and build your class. From what you said you pick and build your class however you wish. Well when you do that and have people who are built correctly and not on a whim of course you are gonna be at disadvantage. That is your fault not the games.

As for saying the gear for GWF is striker gear, where does it say it on it? Does it say "Striker" or does it say "Great Weapon Fighter"? Or are you saying its Striker gear because it has Crit, Armor Pen, Power? Cause as a Leader I gear for Recovery, Crit, and Power. So does that mean now that my Leader role is now a Striker role? No. The class determines the role not the gear. That's basic knowledge.

GWF is not a Striker... if it was a striker you'd be a Striker. You are a Defender... A hybrid Defender/Controller possibly.

Good job on playing MMOs for 12 years. I'm honestly not impressed. I've been playing MMO's for years as well, and I've played D&D Since AD&D. Time frame of doing something has little knowledge when a new game comes out. Neverwinter isn't WoW, AoC, SWTOR, LOTRO, TSW, GW, or GW2, CoH, EQ, or EQ2. Neverwinter isn't Neverwinter Nights 3.

Neverwinter is Neverwinter, and it's about Teamwork... >Good< Teamwork. Why do you think Pre-made groups in PVP do so well? They are using good teamwork to pull it off. Go join a guild that's PVP based.

Are u a cryptic employee ? Its clearly an unbalanced game and the only thing u keep saying is play with a premade team..
Seriously? The only way to enjoy this game is by playing with 4 other friends? The only valid build is the one u red in some guys "guide"?

No m8 its a cLear thing that the game was biased and rushed to the public... Ur theories about teamplay are not valid, thank god that
We know how a well designed teamplay game should be(see another game that is owning the market). its clear too why u stick with your cleric
Cause at this state GWF is a terrible class compared to the other available classes (see the class forums if u doubt ).