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Seven abilities... are they too few?
tagari84
Member Posts: 36
Obviously this is a speculation thread. But ever since I 've heard about how few the abilities will be I was wondering how it will work. So I made this thread to hear the community's thoughts.
Let me start with the abilities we will have (correct me if I am wrong):
- 2 at-will: probably for generic attacks and maybe some sort of side effect
- 2 "encounters": stronger abilities on a short cooldown
- 2 "dailies": very strong abilities, used every 2-3 fights based on what we have seen
- 1 utility: basically an escape mechanism
My MMO experience is with two games, WoW and SWTOR. In both those games and depending on my role, I had to use quite a few buttons and abilities so this system is very new to me.
I am trying to imagine a fight. What if you don't have your "daily power D20" full and ready to go" (which will be most of the time). You have your 2 at-wills, your 2 encounters and your utility/escape. At some point you will use the encounters and for the CD you will have 2-3 abilities to use. Do you think that the combat system with the dodging etc makes up for the few abilities?
My main concern for this system is that the skill ceiling of the game will be too low. Lower than other games of a genre where the ceiling is already a bit low. Especially if you consider the fact that there is no "raiding" and only few-man dungeons.
What do you think?
Let me start with the abilities we will have (correct me if I am wrong):
- 2 at-will: probably for generic attacks and maybe some sort of side effect
- 2 "encounters": stronger abilities on a short cooldown
- 2 "dailies": very strong abilities, used every 2-3 fights based on what we have seen
- 1 utility: basically an escape mechanism
My MMO experience is with two games, WoW and SWTOR. In both those games and depending on my role, I had to use quite a few buttons and abilities so this system is very new to me.
I am trying to imagine a fight. What if you don't have your "daily power D20" full and ready to go" (which will be most of the time). You have your 2 at-wills, your 2 encounters and your utility/escape. At some point you will use the encounters and for the CD you will have 2-3 abilities to use. Do you think that the combat system with the dodging etc makes up for the few abilities?
My main concern for this system is that the skill ceiling of the game will be too low. Lower than other games of a genre where the ceiling is already a bit low. Especially if you consider the fact that there is no "raiding" and only few-man dungeons.
What do you think?
Post edited by tagari84 on
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The combat in whole will be very different in NWO then in WoW, much more fast paced like in GW2. Believe me: 6 combat and 1 utility abilities are more then enough - especially since we can get more then these and pick the ones we like most / suits the coming combats most. GW2 requires you to move all the time, dodge the big attacks of the mobs and bosses and try to get your own big attacks to hit. In between all this dodging, attacking and not loosing control over the combat you do not have time to choose your abilities carefully. You just act, having prepared yourself beforehand. TSW is exactly the same and from the vids I have seen of NWO it looks like NWO is going to be the same as well.
WoW: slow combat, many abilities and time to choose the right one.
GW2 (and hopefully NWO): fast combat, no time to think, you prepare beforehand and just act during the combat.
I love this present generation of MMO's b:laugh
right mouse click: at will
left mouse click: at will
Q: encounter
E: encounter
R: encounter
1: daily
2: daily
shift: utility / escape / dodge (probably coupled with a movement key for the rogue or wizard as their utilities are directional movement based and the fighter just raises a shield)
3: potion/item
4: potion/item
5: potion/item
6: potion/item
is your question that 8 "actions" aren't enough?
there will be a lot more "actions" to choose from but for each adventure you only have access to 8 depending on the skills/powers that are most appropriate to your current situation, i.e. soloing or working in a group, the types of damaging spells, or all melee or some missile attackes for the rogue; I would imagine. Craig Z or Andy V mentioned there will be more skills/powered attained as you advance in levels but you only have limited access to those you "set up"
I remember vaguely from EQ1 having access to *melee attack* and about 8-10 spells as a druid so as a spell caster with 7-8 slots it is *somewhat* comparable but perhaps a slight bit more limited but I usually only had about 3-4 attack spells, 1-2 teleports, and 2-3 buffs, and 1 healing spell IIRC.
JS
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Very much This^
Personally I like the way Cryptic is approaching this, it eliminates this tired 'Right rotation" BS while still providing a tactical game that doesn't take hours on MMO champion every other patch to see what the FOTM is.
A level 30 character only has 2 At-Wills, 4 Encounter powers, and 4 Dailies. This is without accounting for 7 utility powers and numerous class features.
If you check the gameplay footage, you'll see that there are actually 9 ability slots. Two appear to be for daily powers, leaving seven free. That's two at-wills, four encounter powers, and a utility of your choice.
Whether this is enough will depend on how class features and utility powers are implemented. Many of these are stances or "passive" effects that enhance other actions like skill checks during combat. That means they won't necessarily need to be triggered, freeing up slots. Once you hit level 11 you effectively stop gaining new powers (except utilities) and simply replace those you already have.
So really the only choice you would be forced to make when placing abilities on your action bar is which dailies to choose, and even that only becomes an issue closer to the level cap.
I'm not concerned yet. We'll see what they do with utility powers though, that'll make or break it.
If I was having a conversation on the merits of Neverwinters lack of hotbar Powers purely from an MMO standpoint, I'd say my response would be that I kinda hate the direction the genre is taking. I like games with a deep palette of spells. I like having to spend alotta time, trial and error, and even some research; to get the most out of a big assed array of spells. Not to get all fear monger or anything, but I also kinda worry that the new "Action MMO" design of recent MMO's is taking us dangerously close to the "twitch" of an FPS, and I sometimes wonder how far it's gonna go.
But if I look at things from a 4E D&D standpoint, purely on the number of Powers you get to work with, as others have pointed out; what Neverwinter is doing isn't exactly far from the mark. 4E is just kind of a lean game when it comes to Powers. And I love it! At least for the non-spellcaster players. I sometimes think that the player spellcasters in the group I DM (who are all old school 1E and 2E'rs) kinda long for the days of a big assed spellbook (which Wizard's in 4E actually still do have), but frankly; nobody has really missed them in any meaningful way.
this video shows for the action bar:
2 daily powers (sleep (1) and ice storm (2))
3 encounter powers (chill strike (q),repel (e) and mage hand (r))
2 at will powers (magic missile (left mouse) and ray of frost (right mouse))
2 "class" powers (orb of imposition and chilling presence (not assigned to any button = passives maybe???))
5 potion slots? (with 50 potions in the first slot (3))
*jaw drops* how do you know all the names? b:puzzled
This city promises death for the meek, glory for the bold, danger for all, and riches for Jade!
Elven Trickster Rogue: Two-bladed elf, tons of stabby stabby and that sort of thing...
| R. A. Salvatore | My Minions | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Elven Translator |
Well to be fair, Craig the Goatborne Zinkievich does mention a few of those in his discussion, so cross referencing them with a players guide probably reveals a little more. Just a guess though.
Great video though, thanks edvion for posting.
slow up the esl vid and screenshot it shows quite clearly as well as the other released screens as well
FPB1
i am a hoarder i hold on to everything from every thread.
Hmmm so at level 60 we only have 17 powers (7 encounter, 5 Daily and 5 class) to choose from? That's unfortunate I'd like to see a little more than that say 25, even if I can only have 7 active at a time, more powers means more options for different builds.
I thought someone posted it was 30 maybe thats at lvl 90, when endgame is introduced, but throw in paragon paths, and theres a few more powers to add when this is added. So as for final count we will have to wait and see.
The new trailler show there is one more button "tab", but looking closy at the videos some times the button is able sometimes disable.
To be honest i dont have a clue what it might be lol
Well I'm referring to this image
It shows a lvl 60 Daily - Dragon's Fangs, so I was counting all of the powers on that screenie. *shrug*, honestly I don't know I just hope we have more powers to choose from than 17 by lvl 60.
Looking forward to hearing more about this.
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It might be on a cool down when it appears "disabled". In the ESL video some abilities appeared to sort of greyed/blacked out like that when on the cool down.
Fully agree with you but called them war wizards in this example.
The control wizard was taken (by me)magePB1 when played in fullsceen and printscreened copy/pasted/saved to paint, see esl gameplay demo top corner.
Neverwinter Gameplay Demo Gamescom 2012 - ESL TV was posted on the 08-19-2012
these 3 surfaced after E3 in a news blog link and granmazzo's mazzomiester DUDE WHERE R U pax thread back 07-06-2012
pic1
pic2
pic3
Look closely, in the ESL gameplay theres only 2 of them, at the new trailer its 3 and one of them have the "tab" as hotkey.
I also dont think is a cooldown either coz u dont see the colldown animation in the button.
It could be diferent for diferent classes but is also not the case, the gameplay in Helms Hold show the 3 classes play and all of them have the new tab hotkey.
Lol im just so exciting about the game that i pay attention to all small details.....
I dunno if we'll get to level 90. and if we only have 17 powers at lvl 60, I'd rather they lowered it to a lvl 40 cap with 17 powers. That's assuming the 17 have the Paragon path abilities added in. If this is EXCLUDING Paragon powers, then 17 is a pretty good number. But that powers tree they showed was WEAK. I'm hoping they don't leave it at that, cause it was pathetic. I dunno about everyone else, but I love when you get passive talents that increase your abilities. Not to say there should be a 300 point skill tree, just a little more than put a point in, get an ability, move on to next ability. I don't wanna feel like I'm buying from a freakin' vending machine with 6 drinks, but I don't wanna feel like I'm walking into Wal*Mart and being told I have to buy 12 items from every isle. I really REALLY hope they aren't counting Paragon and other abilities in this, because that was one of the cool things in 4E.
i think you can get the same amount of character customization without the clunky interface of 16 hotbars clogging up your screen. i like the way it looks so far.
I liked the paradigm of GW2. Now that you mention it I remembered it has only few abilities, though I haven't played the game. I should go and check some gameplay videos perhaps. But what I have heard from a friend of mine GW2 combat system was not very appealing to him. He didn't say he was bothered by the low number of abilities but that in general he was not fond of the action combat. Maybe that's just his opinion though. I sure hope NWO feels better than that.
Can you please explain the last part of your message? My english are not very good and I was a bit confused. From the red "Not sure about".b:laugh But in general I get the feeling that you liked the combat system. Am I mistaken?
I am uncertain how I feel about the targeting either way. I was simply saying it seems you can fire a power when you aim it an an enemy but you can not activate a power if you do not have an enemy aimed in its sights.
well, you can counter this a bit by the action combat...another thing they should add are fatalities like in age of conan...this also makes combat much more interesting... they could also add things like cross class combos, being able to use your environment to land a combo (e.g. oil barrels explode with a fire ball, electricity and water, breaking the ceiling etc. etc.)
otherwise it might get boring pretty fast...
I think you missed the interview(s) in which devs explained the reasons. So there is thing thing called "RT active combat" and an explanation of that contains the answers to your questions.
i love action combat...but that doesnt mean it needs to be dumbed down
i love for example the way the secret world sets up its abilities...yes its no real innovation and has its limitations...but it gives you the feel to "truely develop a unique character"... i really dont see how this can be happening with neverwinter as it seems your just playing an archetype the way its supposed to be
On topic, I see quite a few people concerned about the number of abilities and combat in general. But let's hope Cryptic will surprise us in a good way...
I am actually not as concerned with the number in combat as I am concerned with the number we can pick and choose from. It appears from that screenie at least that we have 17 to choose from at lvl 60. I think that is too few. 7 during combat is fine if we can swap them out out of combat and have a good variety of abilities to choose from depending on each role.