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Random Traps
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Member Posts: 5,050,278 Bounty Hunter
One of the things that bothers me about DDO is the static traps. Traps in dungeons are awesome. They give a sense of danger & a purpose for the Rogues.
The afterbirth of static traps is what we "fondly" refer to as Zergers. Once you have run a dungeon more than once, you know where all the traps are. Tactics go out the window & Zergers flourish.
Randomly placed traps would nip these annoying weeds in the bud. No more zerging down the hallway to the next group of mobs. No more zerging through breakables spamming the "e" button as you go. No more opening doors to engage the next group in a display of your "awesomness" while slower moving characters are scrambling to catch up. Trapped doors FTW!
I know I know, silly of me to want dungeons to have a purpose besides the xp count at the end.
The afterbirth of static traps is what we "fondly" refer to as Zergers. Once you have run a dungeon more than once, you know where all the traps are. Tactics go out the window & Zergers flourish.
Randomly placed traps would nip these annoying weeds in the bud. No more zerging down the hallway to the next group of mobs. No more zerging through breakables spamming the "e" button as you go. No more opening doors to engage the next group in a display of your "awesomness" while slower moving characters are scrambling to catch up. Trapped doors FTW!
I know I know, silly of me to want dungeons to have a purpose besides the xp count at the end.
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Dunno how it'd work with the action theme, but I'd really like to see them. Imo the spotting should be fully automatic and quite fast. Further, I'd like to see foundry traps given multiple possible locations and effects:)
There. I can know I have voiced my request against the stupidity of static traps and the zerg morons it makes.
And since all characters have the potential to learn the thievery skill and disable it (costing a feat or your selectable background if not in the class skill list,) a rogue possibly isn't the only class needed. Then again, assuming we'd have skills to train and not simply have it class-only assigned. We shall see....
I think we have somewhere in foundry section where people demand random traps as in NWN1, unlike DDO.
Too difficult to find in cluttered forms, hope they organise the forums nicely soon.
EDIT: *sigh* truthseeker beat me to it while I was trying to find foundry thread...
Yep, so far no info on skills... I've been having a feeling they will be very different from the way they are in the books. Who knows though. Would be great if the skill system was even close to as extensive and versatile... it's not too complex so might not be too wishful thinking:)
I also loved the dungeons in DDO. The traps, the levers, the valves... all cool.
Yes, so far we dont have any news about skills, i dont want to sound negative but im rly affraid of the possibility of not have skills at all
About random traps... HELL YEAH, and like the-truthseeker told in 4th edition everyone can have thivery skill, this way u dont have to be force to find a rogue to do all ur dungeons.
I like the way DDO implemented the traps, spot check to find them and some hard to disable for a "comon" rogue also i like the dmg they make (zergers be carefull :P) so if they were random would be perfect
1) i love the idea!
2) if this is implemented the best way to be so not reliant on rogues would be to find ways for other classes to trigger though not disable the traps I.E. throw a weight on a pressure plate, or a grappling hook/rope on a tripwire.
It is good to know I'm not the only one entertaining this idea though.
You can find more supporters here:
After post 21 in this thread.
This more cinematic trap style that you'd see in say Indiana Jones movies, it doesn't rely purely on the "surprise! trap" angle that the simple "save or trip" traps did that we've seen in most D&D CRPGs. The trap itself is a challenge to actively overcome that involves the entire party and a good bit of tension and excitement, which is only found in that middle ground of triggering a trap and being given enough time to figure out how to escape your doom. These traps 1) do not absolutely require surprise to work and 2) are near impossible to fully randomize, as they have to be actively designed on a case-by-case basis.
To really keep the encounter type of trap fresh, yes we'd need a lot of new content, fortunately we have the foundry. So Neverwinter doesn't have to lean as heavily on rerunning old content as DDO did. Active traps can also be handled extremely well in action games by bringing in elements of timing and jumping/dodging, Lara Croft & the Guardian of Light had some great trap moments in it, as did Pandora's Temple in God of War. It would be a really missed opportunity if the 4e-inspired action game Neverwinter fell on those forgettable "search or get shocked" traps of yesteryear.
So are you saying 4e is made for wimps? Cant really argue w/you there.
Monsters got beat all to hell w/the nerf bat. Every class can learn thieving abilities (so they can avoid those nerfed traps). Healing surges (snicker) so no one is really in danger of dying. Who needs a Cleric in the party anyway? Just walk it off you big pansy
(Insert sarcasm here)
And what kind of twisted fiend wanting to keep thieves out of his lair would design traps that are meant to kill? You Monster! :eek:
It's just not fair! You should be allowing us time to flip the off switch so we can fend off your other defensive measures. After all, we're Heroes & we're always supossed to win!
(Exit sarcasm here)
Shame on us for wanting to put actual risk back in adventuring
No. Its just different. How? I will try to explain briefly:-
Edition 3
Level<10 => Mage Dies
Level>10 => Fighter/Barbarian dies
Edition 4
DM had a fight with wife => All die
DM is in a rainbow mood => No one dies
My take on the difference. (ofc cleric always lives)
LOL nice
Spinning blades of doom isn't risk? Dodging poison darts or running from a rolling boulder doesn't involve risk? Stopping the trap mechanism before the descending ceiling crushes you isn't risk?
The difference is whether everyone gets to be involved in reacting to and dealing with a trap, versus one party member stopping to search every 5 feet because you never know where a random trap that you can't respond to will show up. I don't even think the latter game type is necessarily inappropriate for every game, but I don't think it fits with the fast pace of neverwinter combat and they would miss the opportunity to introduce some great non-monster action mechanics (which again, fit with the fast pace of neverwinter combat.)
Risk of giving you a hangnail maybe. If everyone is involved in everyone else's job, why have a party at all? Or why put traps in at all? Just zerg through the dungeon as fast as possible. Screw using tactics or specializations. Jack of all trades will do it all! Who cares what's in there? Get to the end, claim your reward & look good doing it at the same time. We cant go having good guys getting hurt. That makes for bad press & someone might get upset.
Just curious if the first time you ever run a dungeon, do you have cheat sheet open? Map, locations of traps, treasure, what mobs & their stats?
Sounds like exploring & relying on others to over come problems would take way too much time away from the "fast pace of Neverwinter combat"
I bet if there is an arena in the game, whether PvE or PvP, you could sit in there all day. Could have all the fast paced combat you want w/out those annoying traps slowing you down
^^^^ What they said. This ain't no SkeeRim
DDO would have been 3x the game for me with random and deadly traps, would change the entire pace of the game... for the better.
DDO's traps on higher levels were strong, most games make traps to the point the don't server their purpose, you can walk right through them, sad.
+100
4E's rule focus is towards specializing combat roles. Rogue's primary job in 4E is not a skill monkey that sits in the corner during battle, it's to be a striker, and with the ability to out damage fighters they can actually do that. With the fighter's ultimate being a taunt, the rogue's big damage, and the wizard's a freeze, it sounds very much like neverwinter is pushing those traditional combat specializations. As opposed to the "fighters keep low level wizards alive until the wizards can do everything, except the fighters should really be CoDzillas" specialization of 3.x. (Not that I dislike 3.x, but sweeping close-minded hyperbole is still dumb.)
Even then though, the idea of many trap-based encounters and terrain challenges is still: specialized roles, but the entire party cooperates. See skill challenges, where players can apply different skills towards overcoming the same obstacle. The paradigm in 4E is still towards specialization, in fact it's way more specialized (some say overspecialized) compared to 3E. The difference is most of that specialization is about the party cooperating together, rather than taking turns "OK you guys do the fighting and I'll go hide, then later I'll go talk up the town while you take five on the bench."
I don't particularly get what a rogue self-snaring themselves has to do with exploration. (the way search is usually implemented in realtime D&D, certainly was in NWN1/2) Then again if you don't consider Skyrim an "exploration" game, I'm not sure what exploration is supposed to be beyond inching along waiting for some red tiles to pop up. Even some random surprise traps would be fine if they aren't implementing search in some silly way like this, particularly when you consider that random traps, by nature, will not be intelligently placed, and either they are so strong you stop and check every inch of every room, or else you never bother checking for them at all.
Thieves expertise makes for great scouts in dungeons, not just for finding, avoiding or dismantling traps & locks. Sneaking around to do a vicious backstab when a monster is distracted or closing in on the Cleric or Mage. Climb up to a small ledge or lip above a door & rain death w/thrown daggers or a shortbow.
I could list combat & encounter manuevers for every class, but then we'ld be here all day.
If a Thief, or hell any of the classes, sat out during an encounter due to "that's not my job", they would catch a hobnailed boot in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> so fast the Cleric would already be praying for divine intervention.
Every class has a role, but those roles are also NOT severly limited. On the flip side of that coin, the roles should NOT be all encompassing.
The whole point of a party is to assist one another to overcome challenges. The more challenging & more rewarding the better. Deadly traps make for not a rewarding challenge, but a realistic one as well.
Guard: I'm sorry My lord, but someone managed to enter the vault & escaped w/some of your gold.
King: WHAT?!? How did they get past the guards & traps?
Guard: Well Sire, due to that last thief dying, we softened up the security a bit. Didn't think it was really fair. We removed the contact poison on the door handle, removed the spike trap & replaced the acid gas w/sneeze powder. Oh and the Guards have blunted their swords. Sharp blades make for deeper wounds which can cause blood loss. The servents had been complaining about having to remove the bodies & clean up all that blood, so we're trying to make life a bit easier for them.
King: What has my Kingdom come to?
Guard: Well My Lord, the villagers are developing an "entitlement" mentality, the FRCLU (Forgotten Realms Civil Liberties Union) says a Thieve's job is to steal & you having lethal security is impeding his ability to work. If he dies, on your property, while attempting to steal your hard won treasure, you are liable. The servants Unionized & now refuse to do any work that would be demeaning. Oh and they also want smoke breaks every 15 minutes, housing for their families, paid time off, Universal Health Care & a pension so they can retire at age 45. There are lawyers waiting outside to discuss all of this with you.
King: What is a Lawyer?
Guard: The deadliest monster you have ever faced.
King: Life was simpler when I was killing Dragons.
Guard: Can't do that anymore Sire. The EPA has classified them as an Endangered Species.
we're talking REAL risk not risk as in "oh that spinning blade just hit me, oh well i needed a haircut anyways"
this will be me "better safe than dead" i always say and i prefer it that way!
And traps are like monsters/NPC with attack rolls and targeting AV/Fort/Ref/will and grant XP if defeated. Like skill challenges, they are considered their own thing though.
And yes, they go from levels 1 to 30
Yes one thing i have to agree, rogues and perception isnt well design in 4th Edition IMO, most of the rogues i play with in pnp have great thievery checks but what does that for if u cant find the traps ???
I play as avenger and i was the trap guy lol not the rogue :P Rogue was just there for his imba DPS heheh
Random traps would make the game rock! Esp if the devs did not wimp out on them like DDO did and make them just a minor irritant. Grimtooth all the way! Elite level traps that can kill! Traps that drop puddings, oozes and cubes on you! Traps that seal the corridor and flood it with water or oil and then ignite it!
Gimme some trap loving I say!
Oh, and on a side note - I would love to be able to cast stone to flesh and actually dig my way out of said filling corridor...