I know Whatsapp generation. Sorry for using more than 10 words - hard to understand for some.....
I try it easier for you: (Best read sentence by sentence - take a break after every sentence and see if you can understand - if not just ask).
If you upgrade a DPS to 26k it makes a difference in all group runs - there is no over DPS. If you upgrade a healer to 26k it makes no difference for most groups - because overheal gives nothing to a group. So a 10k healer is as good as 26k healer.
Before Mod16 the DC was a Buffer (take a break read what Buffs are). So even poor DPS get buffed (maybe new word you learned) and is now not bad DPS but average to good DPS because of Buffs. If the DC stays like it is now - it makes no sense for 99% of content to upgrade it.
Now you understood? Come on I believe in you - if not now read again - best read the whole topic again - then you will get the point.
:RANTON:
BWAHAHAHA buff meta enthusiast hahahaha!
Leave your petty attempts at insulting elsewhere. Petty in accepting criticism, petty in accepting facts.
Who needs to get healed in a group with enemies that hit for 400DMG?
Also, BUFF meta is dead.
Also, your logic is flawlessly silly. If a "poor man's build" can get power from you as a DC, then you become no1 important character for any group, small or big, and that soon enough makes entire MOD16 pointless, makes everything pointless again and might as well return to mod 12-13 with a hard reset once again because what you preach makes no sense for the current day and age in NWO.
"- HEY, WANNA RUN THIS? - SURE! - IF ONLY WE COULD FIND A DC NOW - YEA, THAT SUX - OH, WELL SEE YA TOMORROW - SURE THING!"
Sad thing is - that still exists. You can't run most of the content without some OP.
Why would anyone bother upgrading POWER if you'd be able to give them power and/or DMG bonus? What's the point? Just upgrade speed and then do speedrunning lol. What's their incentive to work harder on their build? Waiting for you to log in so that you can carry them in dung? Do you like to play as a COMPANION? To play as a WALKING LANTERN? I know people who got sick of playing as "buff only" and it's better that nowadays they can play as they please instead to focus on a specific build with specific powers and specific meta.
"metabossman: - HOW MUCH POWER YOU GIVE, YOU DC, YOU? scrubbydc: - 25k POWER, SIRah metabossman: - AND YOU, DC YOU, HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU PROVIDE? dorklydork: - 27k POWER, SIRee metabossman: - AMAZING. YOU 25k SCRUB, GO BACK TO NOOBSCHOOL. 27k, YOU'RE WITH US dorklydork: - OH, JOLLY SQUASH!"
What you get there? Needn't upgrade anyone else except DC. DCs who don't have/give enough power won't be called in PTs, leading to even less incentive to play, leading them to play DPS instead, thus leading to having even less DCs to play with in general, thus leading developers to give special prizes to people who play support classes in the vein of BLACK PEARLS, thus leading to uptight elitism by those DCs who do not want to play with anyone except hi-end meta groups, thus leading everyone else to QQ all day.
And you know what? That's not a joke. That actually happened! And made a huge problem for everyone to remain relevant. If you didn't even give +2% debuff as your class, you were not needed in a group! To hell with that!
And that's better than having a couple of DPS guys who will actually enjoy getting better and learning how to upgrade their skills, dps, how to play? Why? Why making them LAZY? Why having LAZY DPSs around?
Look what we had not so long ago, I remember that topic about CA bonus. People believed CA was a BUFF that's strictly MELEE oriented. It was an actual thing! People waited for tanks and pallies to heal in MOD16 whenever you stood on a red circle, like "don't move it's ok pally's going to heal it all"... Haha! People still do that @ worm phase in LOMM. If only each of those stones that fell from the sky would debuff by reducing defense by 5%, if not more. : ) People still can't avoid a simple rune bane, yet here you want to make this game easier for those types of people who don't even get an itch that they might do something wrong or at least get an incentive to learn something new, maybe practice it.
All you people who ask things like this are the same ones who don't want to learn any mechanics, who want to have CA bonus at all times, who need to press one button to win it all, who can't work for their DMG/USEFULNESS at all. Everything is bad for you. Not a single campaign was good. Not a single meta was good. Not a single event was good. You will find a way to exploit it because you don't want to enjoy it, as simple as that.
I've seen OP healadins doing rather decent damage in dungeons so I disagree they need any DPS upgrade. Especially on small mobs.
I've seen DCs who can outdps my Wizzy.
I've seen barbies who still can both tank and do relevant dps if they are experts. One barbie holds 20 golems. I leave at that.
If you have problems running CN, perhaps you should teach your DPS friends to actually build and upgrade their DPS build which is priority NO1 for any DPS, big or small, in this game, regardless of how much buffy power you can give them in this mod or in previous mod. I mean, what sort of a monster build would you need for CN anyways?
Also, you RUN CN with 26k people? What? What? I'm not even going to get into that, that's a joke on itself.
What happened with others when DCs were givving so much power to everyone around them? Everyone were investing in recovery. What happened to recovery now? It's gone. Why?
You overused it. You exploited it. And that's why we get constant mess and class disbalance thanks to people who do not want to learn how to play Neverwinter in MOD16+ yet want to play an old, old, old dungeon and actually ask for CLASS changes based on something that I solo on my Wizzy.
Splendid logic there. You really have no case.
:RANTOFF:
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I know Whatsapp generation. Sorry for using more than 10 words - hard to understand for some.....
I try it easier for you: (Best read sentence by sentence - take a break after every sentence and see if you can understand - if not just ask).
If you upgrade a DPS to 26k it makes a difference in all group runs - there is no over DPS. If you upgrade a healer to 26k it makes no difference for most groups - because overheal gives nothing to a group. So a 10k healer is as good as 26k healer.
Before Mod16 the DC was a Buffer (take a break read what Buffs are). So even poor DPS get buffed (maybe new word you learned) and is now not bad DPS but average to good DPS because of Buffs. If the DC stays like it is now - it makes no sense for 99% of content to upgrade it.
Now you understood? Come on I believe in you - if not now read again - best read the whole topic again - then you will get the point.
:RANTON:
BWAHAHAHA buff meta enthusiast hahahaha!
Leave your petty attempts at insulting elsewhere. Petty in accepting criticism, petty in accepting facts.
Who needs to get healed in a group with enemies that hit for 400DMG?
Also, BUFF meta is dead.
Also, your logic is flawlessly silly. If a "poor man's build" can get power from you as a DC, then you become no1 important character for any group, small or big, and that soon enough makes entire MOD16 pointless, makes everything pointless again and might as well return to mod 12-13 with a hard reset once again because what you preach makes no sense for the current day and age in NWO.
"- HEY, WANNA RUN THIS? - SURE! - IF ONLY WE COULD FIND A DC NOW - YEA, THAT SUX - OH, WELL SEE YA TOMORROW - SURE THING!"
Sad thing is - that still exists. You can't run most of the content without some OP.
Why would anyone bother upgrading POWER if you'd be able to give them power and/or DMG bonus? What's the point? Just upgrade speed and then do speedrunning lol. What's their incentive to work harder on their build? Waiting for you to log in so that you can carry them in dung? Do you like to play as a COMPANION? To play as a WALKING LANTERN? I know people who got sick of playing as "buff only" and it's better that nowadays they can play as they please instead to focus on a specific build with specific powers and specific meta.
"metabossman: - HOW MUCH POWER YOU GIVE, YOU DC, YOU? scrubbydc: - 25k POWER, SIRah metabossman: - AND YOU, DC YOU, HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU PROVIDE? dorklydork: - 27k POWER, SIRee metabossman: - AMAZING. YOU 25k SCRUB, GO BACK TO NOOBSCHOOL. 27k, YOU'RE WITH US dorklydork: - OH, JOLLY SQUASH!"
What you get there? Needn't upgrade anyone else except DC. DCs who don't have/give enough power won't be called in PTs, leading to even less incentive to play, leading them to play DPS instead, thus leading to having even less DCs to play with in general, thus leading developers to give special prizes to people who play support classes in the vein of BLACK PEARLS, thus leading to uptight elitism by those DCs who do not want to play with anyone except hi-end meta groups, thus leading everyone else to QQ all day.
And you know what? That's not a joke. That actually happened! And made a huge problem for everyone to remain relevant. If you didn't even give +2% debuff as your class, you were not needed in a group! To hell with that!
And that's better than having a couple of DPS guys who will actually enjoy getting better and learning how to upgrade their skills, dps, how to play? Why? Why making them LAZY? Why having LAZY DPSs around?
Look what we had not so long ago, I remember that topic about CA bonus. People believed CA was a BUFF that's strictly MELEE oriented. It was an actual thing! People waited for tanks and pallies to heal in MOD16 whenever you stood on a red circle, like "don't move it's ok pally's going to heal it all"... Haha! People still do that @ worm phase in LOMM. If only each of those stones that fell from the sky would debuff by reducing defense by 5%, if not more. : ) People still can't avoid a simple rune bane, yet here you want to make this game easier for those types of people who don't even get an itch that they might do something wrong or at least get an incentive to learn something new, maybe practice it.
All you people who ask things like this are the same ones who don't want to learn any mechanics, who want to have CA bonus at all times, who need to press one button to win it all, who can't work for their DMG/USEFULNESS at all. Everything is bad for you. Not a single campaign was good. Not a single meta was good. Not a single event was good. You will find a way to exploit it because you don't want to enjoy it, as simple as that.
I've seen OP healadins doing rather decent damage in dungeons so I disagree they need any DPS upgrade. Especially on small mobs.
I've seen DCs who can outdps my Wizzy.
I've seen barbies who still can both tank and do relevant dps if they are experts. One barbie holds 20 golems. I leave at that.
If you have problems running CN, perhaps you should teach your DPS friends to actually build and upgrade their DPS build which is priority NO1 for any DPS, big or small, in this game, regardless of how much buffy power you can give them in this mod or in previous mod. I mean, what sort of a monster build would you need for CN anyways?
Also, you RUN CN with 26k people? What? What? I'm not even going to get into that, that's a joke on itself.
What happened with others when DCs were givving so much power to everyone around them? Everyone were investing in recovery. What happened to recovery now? It's gone. Why?
You overused it. You exploited it. And that's why we get constant mess and class disbalance thanks to people who do not want to learn how to play Neverwinter in MOD16+ yet want to play an old, old, old dungeon and actually ask for CLASS changes based on something that I solo on my Wizzy.
Splendid logic there. You really have no case.
:RANTOFF:
so many word nothing to say - sad. You have no clue what the point is.
Don´t know where you get that I run with 26k people cn - but I know you won´t read.
I have 2 main chars both around 26k - AND if you run random queue you can end up in CN or Malabog. Its a 26k DC and a 26k CW. Random (google what random means!
My 26k DPS CW give the group much more than my DC will be able to give. With the same upgrade the same costs a 26k DPS gives much more for the group than a 26k DC healing build can give.
Conclusion: Its useless to upgrade a DC because most of the upgrades are useless for a healing DC. The chance to fail on a CN with my 26k DPS CW is much lower than with my 26k DC.
Is it really so hard to get? If you don´t get the topic - just ask but don´t comment completly usless and off Topic things!
While it was a bit of a rant his post was not off topic at all. your very first post you put this in: "They need to Buff the group so you can feel a difference if you run with a 26k Pally or 26k DC or you run with only 10k ones."
By adding buffs back into the game all you are doing is setting us back to Mod 15 where more than 1 DPS is more or less useless.
To make sure that a 26k Healing/Buffing DC can "carry" a bad group in a dungeon the buff would have to be substantive enough to overcome bad players and/or low stat caps. For arguments sake lets say the buff required for this is 20%. Yay now you can carry those low level/bad players but consider what happens when you now get into a higher level dungeon with better players.
Your 20% buff doesn't all of a sudden disappear. You are now buffing maybe BIS players 20%. your 15 minute Lomm is now likely 10 or 11 minutes. God forbid if the buffs actually stack and watch for 5-6 minute Lomm's. If this is the case why bring DPS when you can just run DC's and buff everyone upto a DPS level. Mod 16 came about as an Intentional way to stop this. It was the main HAMSTER point of the mod. The entire buff meta was broken as HAMSTER.
The problem you mentioned in your original post has absolutely nothing to do with being a 26k I-level CW. What the difference is is the power stat. Consider the random fresh 80 queuing for CN might have 60-80k power and your 26k CW has what 180-240k power depending on your items. i am sure it is not possible with that i level but if you could reduce your 26k cw down to that power than all of a sudden the difference is not there between the CW and DC helping out that dungeon. The problem is stat caps and how they scale or dont scale with any given content.
While it was a bit of a rant his post was not off topic at all. your very first post you put this in: "They need to Buff the group so you can feel a difference if you run with a 26k Pally or 26k DC or you run with only 10k ones."
By adding buffs back into the game all you are doing is setting us back to Mod 15 where more than 1 DPS is more or less useless.
To make sure that a 26k Healing/Buffing DC can "carry" a bad group in a dungeon the buff would have to be substantive enough to overcome bad players and/or low stat caps. For arguments sake lets say the buff required for this is 20%. Yay now you can carry those low level/bad players but consider what happens when you now get into a higher level dungeon with better players.
Your 20% buff doesn't all of a sudden disappear. You are now buffing maybe BIS players 20%. your 15 minute Lomm is now likely 10 or 11 minutes. God forbid if the buffs actually stack and watch for 5-6 minute Lomm's. If this is the case why bring DPS when you can just run DC's and buff everyone upto a DPS level. Mod 16 came about as an Intentional way to stop this. It was the main HAMSTER point of the mod. The entire buff meta was broken as HAMSTER.
The problem you mentioned in your original post has absolutely nothing to do with being a 26k I-level CW. What the difference is is the power stat. Consider the random fresh 80 queuing for CN might have 60-80k power and your 26k CW has what 180-240k power depending on your items. i am sure it is not possible with that i level but if you could reduce your 26k cw down to that power than all of a sudden the difference is not there between the CW and DC helping out that dungeon. The problem is stat caps and how they scale or dont scale with any given content.
ut was and is offtopic.
last thing I write here.
first I upgraded my CW to near 26k second I upgraded my DC to more than 26k
the costs of upgrading are almost equal.
The output you get is not because the DC is in complete disadvantage; He NEVER makes the difference.
Take CN again: If I join a group with my DPS CW the whole group gets better and feel if 26k DPS is in - because more damage = faster rns. If I join the same group with my DC noone feels any difference he never will make any< difference and will never give something to the group. This group never finishes 1 sec faster even i I upgrade my DC to 28k. On most content a 10k DC can do the job as good as a 26k DC. But a 10k DPS can do the job never as good as a 26k DPS - this is what I want to say.
Upgrade DPS makes sense Upgrade DC makes no sense (in 99% of content) - you get nothing for the group and you can still fail on old content.
And noone ask for a 20% Buff I even suggested a class feature "helping the weak" so the top DPS get not 1 bit of increase. The BIS guys get only heals - the weak guys get something from the DC not only the heals.
And again the Problem is when you compare to 26k chars - a DPS one in this case and a DC. The cost of upgrading is the same - while the upgrade on DPS get you faster runs in content upgrading a healer gives nothing. And in lower lvl content its even worse.
I hope you get the point - like I have written everything said.
2
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2019
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this topic. Premise: Healer's gear progression ends once you can overheal players and survive. This occurs long before you are actually BiS, as HP does not improve much on gear once you reach endgame. Thus healers don't really have much to improve. Solution: Add something to the game to increase the gear progression of healers.
Buffs are 1 solution and they can be either offensive or defensive buffs, it doesn't necessarily need to be only offensive. For example, Paladin's gear progression does not end when they overheal allies, because investing further into their gear increases the potency of their shielded HP, which is arguably a defensive buff. You could have alternative mechanics that do the same thing, for example, a power which mitigates a flat amount of damage based off a percentage of one of your stats. Say, allies standing inside a designated zone have all incoming hits reduced by 10% of a cleric's power (I am eyeballing astral shield here as a candidate for such an ability). Offensive buffs are not necessarily evil either, you just need to ensure they do not contribute more than the contribution of a DpS. If a cleric shares 10% of their power with a DpS, assuming both have a similar amount of power (which is true if they are both BiS) then the DpS will never gain more than 10% increased damage. For a DpS to contribute less than 10% damage to the group, there needs to be at least 11 equal DpS in the group to begin with. Since no content in the game uses 11 DpS, we can already rule buff stacking out as an unlikely outcome, since it won't be optimal.
Even then, buffs don't necessarily need to be the solution either. Another option is to drastically nerf healing (again), so you need to invest a lot into gear in order to heal allies. This solution is ugly though and it heavily penalizes undergeared players. You could also drastically increase the HP players have, which would achieve the same effect, but then mob damage would need to be increased similarly to compensate. There are probably also other solutions, for example making divinity gain scale off combat advantage and then deliberately designing encounters that rapidly deplete your divinity. The most important thing to do though is acknowledge that a problem does exist and that it needs to be addressed, then to work on proposing solutions to fix it.
People are getting very hung up on the terms "buff" and "buffing". It is about ensuring that healers and tanks have increasing impact on the success of a (dungeon) run as their gear/skill increases. thefabricant's post above makes for a good explanation and list of options for healers.. The situation for tanks is not that different. Being able to easily tank content (except TOMM) happens way before you reach BIS, and improvement after that point has much less impact on the run than it does for DPS to improve..
Don't have any instant fixes, but surely agree that ignoring this issue, let alone pretending it does not exist, is not helping anything
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this topic. Premise: Healer's gear progression ends once you can overheal players and survive. This occurs long before you are actually BiS, as HP does not improve much on gear once you reach endgame. Thus healers don't really have much to improve. Solution: Add something to the game to increase the gear progression of healers.
Buffs are 1 solution and they can be either offensive or defensive buffs, it doesn't necessarily need to be only offensive. For example, Paladin's gear progression does not end when they overheal allies, because investing further into their gear increases the potency of their shielded HP, which is arguably a defensive buff. You could have alternative mechanics that do the same thing, for example, a power which mitigates a flat amount of damage based off a percentage of one of your stats. Say, allies standing inside a designated zone have all incoming hits reduced by 10% of a cleric's power (I am eyeballing astral shield here as a candidate for such an ability). Offensive buffs are not necessarily evil either, you just need to ensure they do not contribute more than the contribution of a DpS. If a cleric shares 10% of their power with a DpS, assuming both have a similar amount of power (which is true if they are both BiS) then the DpS will never gain more than 10% increased damage. For a DpS to contribute less than 10% damage to the group, there needs to be at least 11 equal DpS in the group to begin with. Since no content in the game uses 11 DpS, we can already rule buff stacking out as an unlikely outcome, since it won't be optimal.
Even then, buffs don't necessarily need to be the solution either. Another option is to drastically nerf healing (again), so you need to invest a lot into gear in order to heal allies. This solution is ugly though and it heavily penalizes undergeared players. You could also drastically increase the HP players have, which would achieve the same effect, but then mob damage would need to be increased similarly to compensate. There are probably also other solutions, for example making divinity gain scale off combat advantage and then deliberately designing encounters that rapidly deplete your divinity. The most important thing to do though is acknowledge that a problem does exist and that it needs to be addressed, then to work on proposing solutions to fix it.
You proposed really good solutions but a part of me tells me that an increased difficulty will solve this issue and many others with it. It's not just DC's that feel their progression is static after a certain point, the dps also can get bored of no challenge dungeons. Giving us an option to increase the difficulty of lower level dungeons, with maybe more rad or drop rate, may kill 2 birds with one stone.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this topic. Premise: Healer's gear progression ends once you can overheal players and survive. This occurs long before you are actually BiS, as HP does not improve much on gear once you reach endgame. Thus healers don't really have much to improve. Solution: Add something to the game to increase the gear progression of healers.
Buffs are 1 solution and they can be either offensive or defensive buffs, it doesn't necessarily need to be only offensive. For example, Paladin's gear progression does not end when they overheal allies, because investing further into their gear increases the potency of their shielded HP, which is arguably a defensive buff. You could have alternative mechanics that do the same thing, for example, a power which mitigates a flat amount of damage based off a percentage of one of your stats. Say, allies standing inside a designated zone have all incoming hits reduced by 10% of a cleric's power (I am eyeballing astral shield here as a candidate for such an ability). Offensive buffs are not necessarily evil either, you just need to ensure they do not contribute more than the contribution of a DpS. If a cleric shares 10% of their power with a DpS, assuming both have a similar amount of power (which is true if they are both BiS) then the DpS will never gain more than 10% increased damage. For a DpS to contribute less than 10% damage to the group, there needs to be at least 11 equal DpS in the group to begin with. Since no content in the game uses 11 DpS, we can already rule buff stacking out as an unlikely outcome, since it won't be optimal.
Even then, buffs don't necessarily need to be the solution either. Another option is to drastically nerf healing (again), so you need to invest a lot into gear in order to heal allies. This solution is ugly though and it heavily penalizes undergeared players. You could also drastically increase the HP players have, which would achieve the same effect, but then mob damage would need to be increased similarly to compensate. There are probably also other solutions, for example making divinity gain scale off combat advantage and then deliberately designing encounters that rapidly deplete your divinity. The most important thing to do though is acknowledge that a problem does exist and that it needs to be addressed, then to work on proposing solutions to fix it.
You proposed really good solutions but a part of me tells me that an increased difficulty will solve this issue and many others with it. It's not just DC's that feel their progression is static after a certain point, the dps also can get bored of no challenge dungeons. Giving us an option to increase the difficulty of lower level dungeons, with maybe more rad or drop rate, may kill 2 birds with one stone.
The problem right now is it doesn't matter how much you increase difficulty, dps and tanks/healers progress at different rates. DpS need to invest in 4 offensive stats:
Power
Critical Strike
Armour Penetration
Accuracy
While healers only need to invest in at most 2:
Power
Critical Strike (arguably this is not even needed)
They have the third stat of outgoing healing bonus, but every slot that offers outgoing healing bonus is in contest with a slot that offers power, ie, you cannot invest in them both, you sacrifice power at the expense of outgoing healing.
Tanks don't really need to invest in any offensive stats at all beyond what they need to keep aggro, considering I have seen tanks holding aggro in ToMM using MW 3 weapons, that pretty much means almost anything is good enogh offensively.
The thing is, because healers and tanks have less stats they need to invest into, there is less room for progress. Healers and Tanks (imo) need to be given more stats which effect their performance, because right now there aren't actually enough.
... wait, the first and biggest problem is not tanks and healers have less status to improve but how much evolve a dps compared to supporters. that happens since beta.
the FIRST thing to do is bring down, by a lot, how much a dps can survive w/o supporters, no matter the dungeon level. because, right now, the opposite exist (or is worst w/o offensive supporters).
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this topic. Premise: Healer's gear progression ends once you can overheal players and survive. This occurs long before you are actually BiS, as HP does not improve much on gear once you reach endgame. Thus healers don't really have much to improve. Solution: Add something to the game to increase the gear progression of healers.
Buffs are 1 solution and they can be either offensive or defensive buffs, it doesn't necessarily need to be only offensive. For example, Paladin's gear progression does not end when they overheal allies, because investing further into their gear increases the potency of their shielded HP, which is arguably a defensive buff. You could have alternative mechanics that do the same thing, for example, a power which mitigates a flat amount of damage based off a percentage of one of your stats. Say, allies standing inside a designated zone have all incoming hits reduced by 10% of a cleric's power (I am eyeballing astral shield here as a candidate for such an ability). Offensive buffs are not necessarily evil either, you just need to ensure they do not contribute more than the contribution of a DpS. If a cleric shares 10% of their power with a DpS, assuming both have a similar amount of power (which is true if they are both BiS) then the DpS will never gain more than 10% increased damage. For a DpS to contribute less than 10% damage to the group, there needs to be at least 11 equal DpS in the group to begin with. Since no content in the game uses 11 DpS, we can already rule buff stacking out as an unlikely outcome, since it won't be optimal.
Even then, buffs don't necessarily need to be the solution either. Another option is to drastically nerf healing (again), so you need to invest a lot into gear in order to heal allies. This solution is ugly though and it heavily penalizes undergeared players. You could also drastically increase the HP players have, which would achieve the same effect, but then mob damage would need to be increased similarly to compensate. There are probably also other solutions, for example making divinity gain scale off combat advantage and then deliberately designing encounters that rapidly deplete your divinity. The most important thing to do though is acknowledge that a problem does exist and that it needs to be addressed, then to work on proposing solutions to fix it.
You proposed really good solutions but a part of me tells me that an increased difficulty will solve this issue and many others with it. It's not just DC's that feel their progression is static after a certain point, the dps also can get bored of no challenge dungeons. Giving us an option to increase the difficulty of lower level dungeons, with maybe more rad or drop rate, may kill 2 birds with one stone.
The problem right now is it doesn't matter how much you increase difficulty, dps and tanks/healers progress at different rates. DpS need to invest in 4 offensive stats:
Power
Critical Strike
Armour Penetration
Accuracy
While healers only need to invest in at most 2:
Power
Critical Strike (arguably this is not even needed)
They have the third stat of outgoing healing bonus, but every slot that offers outgoing healing bonus is in contest with a slot that offers power, ie, you cannot invest in them both, you sacrifice power at the expense of outgoing healing.
Tanks don't really need to invest in any offensive stats at all beyond what they need to keep aggro, considering I have seen tanks holding aggro in ToMM using MW 3 weapons, that pretty much means almost anything is good enogh offensively.
The thing is, because healers and tanks have less stats they need to invest into, there is less room for progress. Healers and Tanks (imo) need to be given more stats which effect their performance, because right now there aren't actually enough.
The Took does not disagree with Mr. Sharp on this topic. But will humbly comment... The Tank progression is bi-modal.
That is, tanks hit a "sweet spot" somewhere between "endgame ready" and "ubermensche" where they easily cap all of their defensive stats, push their HP to near max... then gain nothing in productivity for a while... but then (if they have not quit the game out of boredom) put all of their many excess resources into DPS.
Took retired Took's Vanguard before phase three, but Took just arrived at stage 3 on Took OP. DPS investment increases aggro potential, so that (theoretically) is something tanks could invest in.
So... that's a reason to keep playing tank. Right?
Edit: Used a 1st person pronoun. Took blasphemy!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
first: this game or even dungeons is not only about kill two bosses that, soon or later, will be outdated too.
for example, Trobriand. that is ONE MOMENT in the entire dungeon and we have 20 dungeons or more. the other point is, i already see dps surviving to that with bad healers.
second: what i wish for dps is some negative progression in your defensive mechanics as a tanks have in your offensive progression.
ignoring "multiplive bonus vs additive bonus" coming to offensive class features that already have in the top three ddealers, a tank receive -10% damage bonus and +40%hp/extra threat when choose your role. that means, tanks aways will have some advantage when improve your hp but a reduction of 10% in your offensive progression.
... i want the same for dps. -40%of hp when choose a dps role,+10%damage and threat reduction. Healers and charaters that still dont chose paragons will still the same.
then take the second tiers of dps and give "supporters roles too" after some adjustments, being that classes offensive/defensive supporters.
this game will receive in one day to another a lot of supporters.
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this topic. Premise: Healer's gear progression ends once you can overheal players and survive. This occurs long before you are actually BiS, as HP does not improve much on gear once you reach endgame. Thus healers don't really have much to improve. Solution: Add something to the game to increase the gear progression of healers.
Buffs are 1 solution and they can be either offensive or defensive buffs, it doesn't necessarily need to be only offensive. For example, Paladin's gear progression does not end when they overheal allies, because investing further into their gear increases the potency of their shielded HP, which is arguably a defensive buff. You could have alternative mechanics that do the same thing, for example, a power which mitigates a flat amount of damage based off a percentage of one of your stats. Say, allies standing inside a designated zone have all incoming hits reduced by 10% of a cleric's power (I am eyeballing astral shield here as a candidate for such an ability). Offensive buffs are not necessarily evil either, you just need to ensure they do not contribute more than the contribution of a DpS. If a cleric shares 10% of their power with a DpS, assuming both have a similar amount of power (which is true if they are both BiS) then the DpS will never gain more than 10% increased damage. For a DpS to contribute less than 10% damage to the group, there needs to be at least 11 equal DpS in the group to begin with. Since no content in the game uses 11 DpS, we can already rule buff stacking out as an unlikely outcome, since it won't be optimal.
Even then, buffs don't necessarily need to be the solution either. Another option is to drastically nerf healing (again), so you need to invest a lot into gear in order to heal allies. This solution is ugly though and it heavily penalizes undergeared players. You could also drastically increase the HP players have, which would achieve the same effect, but then mob damage would need to be increased similarly to compensate. There are probably also other solutions, for example making divinity gain scale off combat advantage and then deliberately designing encounters that rapidly deplete your divinity. The most important thing to do though is acknowledge that a problem does exist and that it needs to be addressed, then to work on proposing solutions to fix it.
You proposed really good solutions but a part of me tells me that an increased difficulty will solve this issue and many others with it. It's not just DC's that feel their progression is static after a certain point, the dps also can get bored of no challenge dungeons. Giving us an option to increase the difficulty of lower level dungeons, with maybe more rad or drop rate, may kill 2 birds with one stone.
The problem right now is it doesn't matter how much you increase difficulty, dps and tanks/healers progress at different rates. DpS need to invest in 4 offensive stats:
Power
Critical Strike
Armour Penetration
Accuracy
While healers only need to invest in at most 2:
Power
Critical Strike (arguably this is not even needed)
They have the third stat of outgoing healing bonus, but every slot that offers outgoing healing bonus is in contest with a slot that offers power, ie, you cannot invest in them both, you sacrifice power at the expense of outgoing healing.
Tanks don't really need to invest in any offensive stats at all beyond what they need to keep aggro, considering I have seen tanks holding aggro in ToMM using MW 3 weapons, that pretty much means almost anything is good enogh offensively.
The thing is, because healers and tanks have less stats they need to invest into, there is less room for progress. Healers and Tanks (imo) need to be given more stats which effect their performance, because right now there aren't actually enough.
Yes it makes more sense now. If difficulty was increased, the DPS would require to invest in HP as well and that would increase the burden on the dps when the goal was the opposite. Deflect and awareness are pretty much neglected and avoidance is only really needed in TOMM. I believe , the dev's should consider adding defensive/offensive buffs that rely on those stats for the support classes.
first: this game or even dungeons is not only about kill two bosses that, soon or later, will be outdated too.
for example, Trobriand. that is ONE MOMENT in the entire dungeon and we have 20 dungeons or more. the other point is, i already see dps surviving to that with bad healers.
second: what i wish for dps is some negative progression in your defensive mechanics as a tanks have in your offensive progression.
ignoring "multiplive bonus vs additive bonus" coming to offensive class features that already have in the top three ddealers, a tank receive -10% damage bonus and +40%hp/extra threat when choose your role. that means, tanks aways will have some advantage when improve your hp but a reduction of 10% in your offensive progression.
... i want the same for dps. -40%of hp when choose a dps role,+10%damage and threat reduction. Healers and charaters that still dont chose paragons will still the same.
then take the second tiers of dps and give "supporters roles too" after some adjustments, being that classes offensive/defensive supporters.
this game will receive in one day to another a lot of supporters.
I can see the points you are making as well as the points others have given as well . They have made the effort to punish the tanks and healers that wish to play outside the roles they want them in. While they have added some rather dirty tricks to deal with some of the DPS as well. And yes none if this will solve many of our core problems as power creep has and shall still be a thing going forward. So until they decide how they might would want to fix that I will just keep making my DPS Glass cannons that has slight use for a healer and no use at all for a tank other than perhaps an OP. They made this mess, would be nice if they would fix it.
I try again. You wish an Arcade game where DPS can not predict the outcome of the fight. . Because DPS are forced by design to become helpless , they would depend more on support class. . That is already done by design in Mod 16, Mod 17 and most probably that will be the future Neverwinter. . DPS main players choose DPS role because they want to be in control. . Either they figure out a way to control the situation. . Either they leave the game. . Ask for more new content, that is where you are need it, that is what we all want. Old content will always be mastered by good DPS with no need for support, it is their nature. .
you sayed two great trues here. the first is about my wish (hahahaha) the second is about the selfish charater of a dps player. letme explain why that problem need be fixed.
our devs plan fix that damage formula for everbody. what that means, fighters and barbarians, as a dps, will do the same damage as a classes that have only one role.
what some of that "single roles" players will do when that happens? thing that unfair and leave.
some fighters/barbarians and sws (if buffed) will stoped to play your secundary function and play a dps role (because have more control) and then we will have even less suporters to create a party. w/o partys to play, more people will leave.
ok, lets create more content forcing that dual roles to play as a supporters... take all that players, how many are endgamers? we will have the same cicle happens Ad aeternum because of a certain behaviour?
ps:nop, ignoring the new trial, dps are faaaaaaaaaaaar to be helpless. ps2: having offensive supporters and nerfing main dps survival you know who will have more control? offensive supporters. that means, who want "control" will play as a supporter, who want blink to destroy things will still a dps.
I try again. You wish an Arcade game where DPS can not predict the outcome of the fight. . Because DPS are forced by design to become helpless , they would depend more on support class. . That is already done by design in Mod 16, Mod 17 and most probably that will be the future Neverwinter. . DPS main players choose DPS role because they want to be in control. . Either they figure out a way to control the situation. . Either they leave the game. . Ask for more new content, that is where you are need it, that is what we all want. Old content will always be mastered by good DPS with no need for support, it is their nature. .
you sayed two great trues here. the first is about my wish (hahahaha) the second is about the selfish charater of a dps player. letme explain why that problem need be fixed.
our devs plan fix that damage formula for everbody. what that means, fighters and barbarians, as a dps, will do the same damage as a classes that have only one role.
what some of that "single roles" players will do when that happens? thing that unfair and leave.
some fighters/barbarians and sws (if buffed) will stoped to play your secundary function and play a dps role (because have more control) and then we will have even less suporters to create a party. w/o partys to play, more people will leave.
ok, lets create more content forcing that dual roles to play as a supporters... take all that players, how many are endgamers? we will have the same cicle happens Ad aeternum because of a certain behaviour?
ps:nop, ignoring the new trial, dps are faaaaaaaaaaaar to be helpless. ps2: having offensive supporters and nerfing main dps survival you know who will have more control? offensive supporters. that means, who want "control" will play as a supporter, who want blink to destroy things will still a dps.
what this game lacks? supporters
I like how your solution does absolutely nothing to solve the problem and in some cases makes it worse.
1) Healers already overheal now. Reducing the HP of a dps, just increases the margin by which a healer overheals and means that a healer caps out on their gear progression even faster, thereby making the problem worse because they finish their gear progression even earlier. 2) DpS have to invest into more stats than healers already and in ToMM, investing into defensive stats are required. Making them have to invest even more to be able to even survive in ToMM, simply furthers the gap in gear progression between support and DpS. 3) If you reduce the hitpoints of a DpS by too much, you render the healer role completely meaningless. In order to be able to heal someone, they need to be able to survive being hit, but not survive by too much. Its a careful balance between instantly dying and not dying fast enough that makes a healer a valuable asset in the group. 4) That penalty technically already exists for a DpS. They could have had a baseline hp of x and a baseline damage of y, on the dps role they display it as, "gain 10% more damage, lose 40% hp" and if it was implemented as x/1.4 hp and y/0.9 damage, then leave tanks at the values x and y. The difference would be exactly the same as now between a tank and a DpS and it would simply display it on the DpS. If you really wanted to, you could have the same net effect without even showing the penalty, you just display only a positive buff on both roles, with the tank having an increase to hp and a dps having an increase to damage. Mathematically, you can get the same results in any of these ways and all you are changing is how you display it to the end user.
The fact of the matter is, the problem is not with DpS. The problem is with the design of the support classes as well as the stats in the game. The stats in the game are designed to facilitate DpS, they are not designed to facilitate healing or tanking.
--- yes, the problem is the dps, no matter a module. aways has. THAT IS THE MAIN POINT OF THE THREAD, the progress of a 26k dps vs a progress of 26k supporter through the most of dungeons. we already have some excuse like "the problem is dungeons, the problem is status", rework after rework. sorry, is time to get some "revolution" here
-1 - the margin for healer is a tank hp pool. theoretically up to 40% or reduct to 40% a hp for dps dont change nothing, but bring dps in our little box in the most of content.
NOW, if you as a healer have enough heal power to do your job... choose a offensive-support paragon.
-2 - why that is a problem? be obsolete choosing a certain class and/or role is a problem.
-3 same as the item one. you know who will help in that situations too? tanks and threat reductions for dps.
4 -no, dont exist. dps received a lot of damage powers when chose a paragon and dont lose nothing in oposite . you dont receive hp penalitys. tanks PAY to get hp advantages. every progression in your gear is aditive to your charater.
note:If you really wanted to, you could have the same net effect without even showing the penalty, you just display only a positive buff on both roles, with the tank having an increase to hp and a dps having an increase to damage. Mathematically, you can get the same results in any of these ways and all you are changing is how you display it to the end user.
... the point is tanks have 40%more hp than a healer and healers have 40%more hp than a dps.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
--- yes, the problem is the dps, no matter a module. aways has. THAT IS THE MAIN POINT OF THE THREAD, the progress of a 26k dps vs a progress of 26k supporter through the most of dungeons. we already have some excuse like "the problem is dungeons, the problem is status", rework after rework. sorry, is time to get some "revolution" here
-1 - the margin for healer is a tank hp pool. theoretically up to 40% or reduct to 40% a hp for dps dont change nothing, but bring dps in our little box in the most of content.
NOW, if you as a healer have enough heal power to do your job... choose a offensive-support paragon.
-2 - why that is a problem? be obsolete choosing a certain class and/or role is a problem.
-3 same as the item one. you know who will help in that situations too? tanks and threat reductions for dps.
4 -no, dont exist. dps received a lot of damage powers when chose a paragon and dont lose nothing in oposite . you dont receive hp penalitys. tanks PAY to get hp advantages. every progression in your gear is aditive to your charater.
note:If you really wanted to, you could have the same net effect without even showing the penalty, you just display only a positive buff on both roles, with the tank having an increase to hp and a dps having an increase to damage. Mathematically, you can get the same results in any of these ways and all you are changing is how you display it to the end user.
... the point is tanks have 40%more hp than a healer and healers have 40%more hp than a dps.
1) Actually, that is changing a lot. In case you were not aware, some of us run ToMM, I don't give a rats HAMSTER about the rest of the game, I care about ToMM. In order to survive in ToMM as a DpS, you need to be able to live through hits which deal 1,000,000 damage before mitigation. This means, for one, you need capped defense. With Capped defense, you now take 500,000 damage. In order to survive this, you either need 500,000 hitpoints, or you need additional mitigation tools. Lets say we reduce the bosses damage by 30% via misc means, you need to be able to survive a hit for 350,000 damage.
So, how much HP can a DpS realistically achieve? Well, if you invest heavily into HP, you will end up with over 400,000 HP. After reducing that by 40%, you would end up with 240,000 HP. At this point, it is not possible to live without paladin crit shields. It doesn't even matter how much a DC or an SW can heal you for, When Super Storm occurs, you will die. Period.
2) Neither healer nor tank are obsolete in the only content in the game that actually matters. Complaining about the state of content that is so easy that every class can solo it, is more a fault of the content then anything else. Try and do ToMM without a healer or tank, come back to me please when you finish it. I am waiting.
3) See 1.
4) My point still stands, its not my problem if you fail at highschool maths. The advantage of the healer is they can do this thing called healing, which you know, a DpS or tank cannot do. Tanks have 40% increased hp and much higher threat generation and because of that they have reduced DpS. There is no value to reducing the HP of a DpS, it adds nothing to the game.
DpS can still overgear ToMM...but, barely. If a dungeon was released that had even 4k higher of every counter stat than ToMM, you would be sacrificing power to build up your other stats as a DpS. The problem is that healers will never be in this situation and neither will tanks, because the stats they have don't matter to them.
A good tank also makes a difference in all this unrelevant useless other content (read: the whole game but tomm) If you think that is not the case, you either have only or never ran with good tanks and never realized it. Maybe trying to run all this unrelevant loser content as a real party instead of just some ppl that don't interact and oh, have a tank! (Must be a tank, got a shield! Right.) I never felt like the good tanks I ran with were useless or taking up (dps) space. In all this completely solo-able boring unrelevant content I run, I mean. Don't take it seriously.
- bye bye -
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
A good tank also makes a difference in all this unrelevant useless other content (read: the whole game but tomm)
If you think that is not the case, you either have only or never ran with good tanks and never realized it.
Maybe trying to run all this unrelevant loser content as a real party instead of just some ppl that don't interact and oh, have a tank! (Must be a tank, got a shield! Right.)
I never felt like the good tanks I ran with were useless or taking up (dps) space.
In all this completely solo-able boring unrelevant content I run, I mean. Don't take it seriously.
I run with a lot of good tanks, good healers too. My point was, when you can solo everything up to SP (which I have done) and you can do lomm 2 man (which I have done), the content shouldn't even be considered when making balance changes to classes. Whilst the rest of the game is not balanced around having the best gear, ToMM is and the fact of the matter is, you cannot make the rest of the game difficult through stat adjustments alone without making ToMM flat out impossible to complete. Furthermore, we know its not the devs intention to make the rest of the game difficult. So if we want to argue about balance, its best to keep arguing about ToMM.
--- yes, the problem is the dps, no matter a module. aways has. THAT IS THE MAIN POINT OF THE THREAD, the progress of a 26k dps vs a progress of 26k supporter through the most of dungeons. we already have some excuse like "the problem is dungeons, the problem is status", rework after rework. sorry, is time to get some "revolution" here
-1 - the margin for healer is a tank hp pool. theoretically up to 40% or reduct to 40% a hp for dps dont change nothing, but bring dps in our little box in the most of content.
NOW, if you as a healer have enough heal power to do your job... choose a offensive-support paragon.
-2 - why that is a problem? be obsolete choosing a certain class and/or role is a problem.
-3 same as the item one. you know who will help in that situations too? tanks and threat reductions for dps.
4 -no, dont exist. dps received a lot of damage powers when chose a paragon and dont lose nothing in oposite . you dont receive hp penalitys. tanks PAY to get hp advantages. every progression in your gear is aditive to your charater.
note:If you really wanted to, you could have the same net effect without even showing the penalty, you just display only a positive buff on both roles, with the tank having an increase to hp and a dps having an increase to damage. Mathematically, you can get the same results in any of these ways and all you are changing is how you display it to the end user.
... the point is tanks have 40%more hp than a healer and healers have 40%more hp than a dps.
1) Actually, that is changing a lot. In case you were not aware, some of us run ToMM, I don't give a rats HAMSTER about the rest of the game, I care about ToMM. In order to survive in ToMM as a DpS, you need to be able to live through hits which deal 1,000,000 damage before mitigation. This means, for one, you need capped defense. With Capped defense, you now take 500,000 damage. In order to survive this, you either need 500,000 hitpoints, or you need additional mitigation tools. Lets say we reduce the bosses damage by 30% via misc means, you need to be able to survive a hit for 350,000 damage.
So, how much HP can a DpS realistically achieve? Well, if you invest heavily into HP, you will end up with over 400,000 HP. After reducing that by 40%, you would end up with 240,000 HP. At this point, it is not possible to live without paladin crit shields. It doesn't even matter how much a DC or an SW can heal you for, When Super Storm occurs, you will die. Period.
2) Neither healer nor tank are obsolete in the only content in the game that actually matters. Complaining about the state of content that is so easy that every class can solo it, is more a fault of the content then anything else. Try and do ToMM without a healer or tank, come back to me please when you finish it. I am waiting.
3) See 1.
4) My point still stands, its not my problem if you fail at highschool maths. The advantage of the healer is they can do this thing called healing, which you know, a DpS or tank cannot do. Tanks have 40% increased hp and much higher threat generation and because of that they have reduced DpS. There is no value to reducing the HP of a DpS, it adds nothing to the game.
DpS can still overgear ToMM...but, barely. If a dungeon was released that had even 4k higher of every counter stat than ToMM, you would be sacrificing power to build up your other stats as a DpS. The problem is that healers will never be in this situation and neither will tanks, because the stats they have don't matter to them.
mimimi, bla,bla, bla... long story short for everbody else: How manny times we listening that "who cares for the rest, we are doing a dungeon "x" now". Every new module is that. The new dungeon become a "example of balance" and the previous one a "who care place". That is why dps classes need be less "self sufficient". then everthing, by a pass of magic, will matter.
that is the main subject of the topic. that is the reality of the game, rework after rework.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
mimimi, bla,bla, bla... long story short for everbody else: How manny times we listening that "who cares for the rest, we are doing a dungeon "x" now". Every new module is that. The new dungeon become a "example of balance" and the previous one a "who care place". That is why dps classes need be less "self sufficient". then everthing, by a pass of magic, will matter.
that is the main subject of the topic. that is the reality of the game, rework after rework.
The reality is, your "solution" will not work because it is addressing a problem which doesn't exist. Healing and tanking are both relevant for content which is designed to actually account for the gear which exists in the game. If cryptic introduces a new set of gear with significantly higher weapon damage and power which causes ToMM to become easy for everyone, you know what the problem is that cuases that? It is the gear because guess what, right now you need a tank and healer for ToMM. In case you weren't aware, the result of over gearing something by a significant margin is, that content becomes easy.
You have not shown: 1) That content designed for current levels of gear does not require a healer or tank. IE, you haven't shown they are self sufficient. 2) How your "solution" addresses the issue of healers and tanks running out of meaningful improvements to make to their character. Yes, we know they can add more damage. Is it meaningful? Not really, no. A tank in ToMM who is fully set up for DpS contributes so little over a tank who is just tanking that the additional AD they spend may as well be deleted.
And in this particular argument, the burden of proof is yours.
Do you expect DpS to not be able to do daily quests solo? Yes/no. Because right now, that is all every single dungeon is with the exception of ToMM. A glorified daily quest and surprise surprise, solo content doesn't need classes to be self sufficient in order to clear it up. I can run those dungeons solo with any class, it just happens to be faster on a DpS because they do more damage, but that doesn't change the fact that the dungeons in this game are basically just instanced daily quests.
And this really isn't about me, so don't try and pretend it is. This game is in a position where players can't afford for agenda pushing BS to nudge it astray. Your solution is just misguided and doesn't fix anything, hence I do not support it. It won't even stop players soloing dungeons, because that 260k hp I pointed out above? That HP total is still far more than enough to do that.
The reality is, your "solution" will not work because it is addressing a problem which doesn't exist. Healing and tanking are both relevant for content which is designed to actually account for the gear which exists in the game. If cryptic introduces a new set of gear with significantly higher weapon damage and power which causes ToMM to become easy for everyone, you know what the problem is that cuases that? It is the gear because guess what, right now you need a tank and healer for ToMM. In case you weren't aware, the result of over gearing something by a significant margin is, that content becomes easy.
Vs
Do you expect DpS to not be able to do daily quests solo? Yes/no. Because right now, that is all every single dungeon is with the exception of ToMM. A glorified daily quest and surprise surprise, solo content doesn't need classes to be self sufficient in order to clear it up. I can run those dungeons solo with any class, it just happens to be faster on a DpS because they do more damage, but that doesn't change the fact that the dungeons in this game are basically just instanced daily quests.
Tellme, HOW DEADLY FAST, IN A PARTY, YOU CAN CLEAN EVERTHING AS A SUPPORTER? IF THAT IS JUST ABOUT GEAR, TELLME, YOUR OOOOOOVER GEARED TANK KILL HORDES FAST AS A DPS in the most old content at least to contradict the main point of the topic? so... wtf are you talking about?
THAT is why FIRST I think is necessary creating offensive supporters. Because this game is not about survive long as you can, but finish dungeons fast as you can. I sayed a game, not TOMM. TOMM is not a rule, is a exception. Soon or later will be part of that snowball. So. instead to have "dual roles" we have offensive/defensive supporters paragons. And only the 3 main classes will be full dpses (paying a fair price to that). So who is not a god like you don’t will soloing every content using a healer like a HAMSTER (if necessary).
NOW, by my own necessity i will choose play my suporter offensively or defensively, not because iam using a certain gear, but because i have tools to do that, way better than now as my gear up. (that means, a 26k healer or tank will help a lot more instead to accept that "endgame dugeon meta" as a argument).
note: as i remember you dont think is fair a single role dps have the same damage as a dual role dps. i agree and change they to offensive/defensive supporters solve that. but, lets be honest, is not fair a main dps have so unquestionably superior to other roles.
A good tank also makes a difference in all this unrelevant useless other content (read: the whole game but tomm)
If you think that is not the case, you either have only or never ran with good tanks and never realized it.
Maybe trying to run all this unrelevant loser content as a real party instead of just some ppl that don't interact and oh, have a tank! (Must be a tank, got a shield! Right.)
I never felt like the good tanks I ran with were useless or taking up (dps) space.
In all this completely solo-able boring unrelevant content I run, I mean. Don't take it seriously.
I run with a lot of good tanks, good healers too. My point was, when you can solo everything up to SP (which I have done) and you can do lomm 2 man (which I have done), the content shouldn't even be considered when making balance changes to classes. Whilst the rest of the game is not balanced around having the best gear, ToMM is and the fact of the matter is, you cannot make the rest of the game difficult through stat adjustments alone without making ToMM flat out impossible to complete. Furthermore, we know its not the devs intention to make the rest of the game difficult. So if we want to argue about balance, its best to keep arguing about ToMM.
I respect your expertise in end game dynamics, however, in your haste to make a point, you say the wrong thing...
"...the content shouldn't even be considered when making balance changes to classes."
The content is key to class balance. I think you are trying to say that the top end of character performance should not be defined by lower level content. right? I mean... players spend over a year bringing their characters up to top end. We don't want a grossly imbalanced class system during that time.. just because it IS balanced at the end.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
I think that healers could do something more than heal. We have bad experiences with offensive buffs in the past, but I dont think good defensive buffs are bad, we are already using artifacts and mounts to mitigate hard damage in ToMM, why not give the classes this power instead of items?
@darthpotater I bet it could, if you went over the top with it. A little bit of powersharing wouldn't have killed anybody, or a little bit of recovery, a little bit of mitigation... However, devs can't balance and this is why we are here. But alas, it won't matter anywhere but tomm. (Oh how I nearly wrote tong here, my brain got stuck some mods ago) We had so much broken stuff and things one could use to fast run content that we might not want a start of a different era of this - even tho, if it takes 6 mods to mess with stuff badly enough, who knows if we are still here then. We could have more exciting 6 mods than this last 2(/3) for sure. What else to run besides tomm, right. Nothing to do soon enough, then.
Comments
BWAHAHAHA buff meta enthusiast hahahaha!
Leave your petty attempts at insulting elsewhere.
Petty in accepting criticism, petty in accepting facts.
Who needs to get healed in a group with enemies that hit for 400DMG?
Also, BUFF meta is dead.
Also, your logic is flawlessly silly. If a "poor man's build" can get power from you as a DC, then you become no1 important character for any group, small or big, and that soon enough makes entire MOD16 pointless, makes everything pointless again and might as well return to mod 12-13 with a hard reset once again because what you preach makes no sense for the current day and age in NWO.
"- HEY, WANNA RUN THIS?
- SURE!
- IF ONLY WE COULD FIND A DC NOW
- YEA, THAT SUX
- OH, WELL SEE YA TOMORROW
- SURE THING!"
Sad thing is - that still exists. You can't run most of the content without some OP.
Why would anyone bother upgrading POWER if you'd be able to give them power and/or DMG bonus? What's the point? Just upgrade speed and then do speedrunning lol.
What's their incentive to work harder on their build? Waiting for you to log in so that you can carry them in dung?
Do you like to play as a COMPANION? To play as a WALKING LANTERN? I know people who got sick of playing as "buff only" and it's better that nowadays they can play as they please instead to focus on a specific build with specific powers and specific meta.
"metabossman: - HOW MUCH POWER YOU GIVE, YOU DC, YOU?
scrubbydc: - 25k POWER, SIRah
metabossman: - AND YOU, DC YOU, HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU PROVIDE?
dorklydork: - 27k POWER, SIRee
metabossman: - AMAZING. YOU 25k SCRUB, GO BACK TO NOOBSCHOOL. 27k, YOU'RE WITH US
dorklydork: - OH, JOLLY SQUASH!"
What you get there? Needn't upgrade anyone else except DC. DCs who don't have/give enough power won't be called in PTs, leading to even less incentive to play, leading them to play DPS instead, thus leading to having even less DCs to play with in general, thus leading developers to give special prizes to people who play support classes in the vein of BLACK PEARLS, thus leading to uptight elitism by those DCs who do not want to play with anyone except hi-end meta groups, thus leading everyone else to QQ all day.
And you know what? That's not a joke. That actually happened! And made a huge problem for everyone to remain relevant. If you didn't even give +2% debuff as your class, you were not needed in a group! To hell with that!
And that's better than having a couple of DPS guys who will actually enjoy getting better and learning how to upgrade their skills, dps, how to play? Why? Why making them LAZY? Why having LAZY DPSs around?
Look what we had not so long ago, I remember that topic about CA bonus. People believed CA was a BUFF that's strictly MELEE oriented. It was an actual thing! People waited for tanks and pallies to heal in MOD16 whenever you stood on a red circle, like "don't move it's ok pally's going to heal it all"... Haha! People still do that @ worm phase in LOMM. If only each of those stones that fell from the sky would debuff by reducing defense by 5%, if not more. : ) People still can't avoid a simple rune bane, yet here you want to make this game easier for those types of people who don't even get an itch that they might do something wrong or at least get an incentive to learn something new, maybe practice it.
All you people who ask things like this are the same ones who don't want to learn any mechanics, who want to have CA bonus at all times, who need to press one button to win it all, who can't work for their DMG/USEFULNESS at all. Everything is bad for you. Not a single campaign was good. Not a single meta was good. Not a single event was good. You will find a way to exploit it because you don't want to enjoy it, as simple as that.
I've seen OP healadins doing rather decent damage in dungeons so I disagree they need any DPS upgrade.
Especially on small mobs.
I've seen DCs who can outdps my Wizzy.
I've seen barbies who still can both tank and do relevant dps if they are experts. One barbie holds 20 golems. I leave at that.
If you have problems running CN, perhaps you should teach your DPS friends to actually build and upgrade their DPS build which is priority NO1 for any DPS, big or small, in this game, regardless of how much buffy power you can give them in this mod or in previous mod. I mean, what sort of a monster build would you need for CN anyways?
Also, you RUN CN with 26k people? What? What? I'm not even going to get into that, that's a joke on itself.
What happened with others when DCs were givving so much power to everyone around them? Everyone were investing in recovery. What happened to recovery now? It's gone. Why?
You overused it.
You exploited it.
And that's why we get constant mess and class disbalance thanks to people who do not want to learn how to play Neverwinter in MOD16+ yet want to play an old, old, old dungeon and actually ask for CLASS changes based on something that I solo on my Wizzy.
Splendid logic there. You really have no case.
:RANTOFF:
Don´t know where you get that I run with 26k people cn - but I know you won´t read.
I have 2 main chars both around 26k - AND if you run random queue you can end up in CN or Malabog.
Its a 26k DC and a 26k CW.
Random (google what random means!
My 26k DPS CW give the group much more than my DC will be able to give.
With the same upgrade the same costs a 26k DPS gives much more for the group than a 26k DC healing build can give.
Conclusion: Its useless to upgrade a DC because most of the upgrades are useless for a healing DC.
The chance to fail on a CN with my 26k DPS CW is much lower than with my 26k DC.
Is it really so hard to get? If you don´t get the topic - just ask but don´t comment completly usless and off Topic things!
By adding buffs back into the game all you are doing is setting us back to Mod 15 where more than 1 DPS is more or less useless.
To make sure that a 26k Healing/Buffing DC can "carry" a bad group in a dungeon the buff would have to be substantive enough to overcome bad players and/or low stat caps. For arguments sake lets say the buff required for this is 20%. Yay now you can carry those low level/bad players but consider what happens when you now get into a higher level dungeon with better players.
Your 20% buff doesn't all of a sudden disappear. You are now buffing maybe BIS players 20%. your 15 minute Lomm is now likely 10 or 11 minutes. God forbid if the buffs actually stack and watch for 5-6 minute Lomm's. If this is the case why bring DPS when you can just run DC's and buff everyone upto a DPS level. Mod 16 came about as an Intentional way to stop this. It was the main HAMSTER point of the mod. The entire buff meta was broken as HAMSTER.
The problem you mentioned in your original post has absolutely nothing to do with being a 26k I-level CW. What the difference is is the power stat. Consider the random fresh 80 queuing for CN might have 60-80k power and your 26k CW has what 180-240k power depending on your items. i am sure it is not possible with that i level but if you could reduce your 26k cw down to that power than all of a sudden the difference is not there between the CW and DC helping out that dungeon. The problem is stat caps and how they scale or dont scale with any given content.
last thing I write here.
first I upgraded my CW to near 26k
second I upgraded my DC to more than 26k
the costs of upgrading are almost equal.
The output you get is not because the DC is in complete disadvantage; He NEVER makes the difference.
Take CN again:
If I join a group with my DPS CW the whole group gets better and feel if 26k DPS is in - because more damage = faster rns.
If I join the same group with my DC noone feels any difference he never will make any< difference and will never give something to the group. This group never finishes 1 sec faster even i I upgrade my DC to 28k. On most content a 10k DC can do the job as good as a 26k DC.
But a 10k DPS can do the job never as good as a 26k DPS - this is what I want to say.
Upgrade DPS makes sense
Upgrade DC makes no sense (in 99% of content) - you get nothing for the group and you can still fail on old content.
And noone ask for a 20% Buff I even suggested a class feature "helping the weak" so the top DPS get not 1 bit of increase.
The BIS guys get only heals - the weak guys get something from the DC not only the heals.
And again the Problem is when you compare to 26k chars - a DPS one in this case and a DC.
The cost of upgrading is the same - while the upgrade on DPS get you faster runs in content upgrading a healer gives nothing.
And in lower lvl content its even worse.
I hope you get the point - like I have written everything said.
Buffs are 1 solution and they can be either offensive or defensive buffs, it doesn't necessarily need to be only offensive. For example, Paladin's gear progression does not end when they overheal allies, because investing further into their gear increases the potency of their shielded HP, which is arguably a defensive buff. You could have alternative mechanics that do the same thing, for example, a power which mitigates a flat amount of damage based off a percentage of one of your stats. Say, allies standing inside a designated zone have all incoming hits reduced by 10% of a cleric's power (I am eyeballing astral shield here as a candidate for such an ability). Offensive buffs are not necessarily evil either, you just need to ensure they do not contribute more than the contribution of a DpS. If a cleric shares 10% of their power with a DpS, assuming both have a similar amount of power (which is true if they are both BiS) then the DpS will never gain more than 10% increased damage. For a DpS to contribute less than 10% damage to the group, there needs to be at least 11 equal DpS in the group to begin with. Since no content in the game uses 11 DpS, we can already rule buff stacking out as an unlikely outcome, since it won't be optimal.
Even then, buffs don't necessarily need to be the solution either. Another option is to drastically nerf healing (again), so you need to invest a lot into gear in order to heal allies. This solution is ugly though and it heavily penalizes undergeared players. You could also drastically increase the HP players have, which would achieve the same effect, but then mob damage would need to be increased similarly to compensate. There are probably also other solutions, for example making divinity gain scale off combat advantage and then deliberately designing encounters that rapidly deplete your divinity. The most important thing to do though is acknowledge that a problem does exist and that it needs to be addressed, then to work on proposing solutions to fix it.
Don't have any instant fixes, but surely agree that ignoring this issue, let alone pretending it does not exist, is not helping anything
- Power
- Critical Strike
- Armour Penetration
- Accuracy
While healers only need to invest in at most 2:- Power
- Critical Strike (arguably this is not even needed)
They have the third stat of outgoing healing bonus, but every slot that offers outgoing healing bonus is in contest with a slot that offers power, ie, you cannot invest in them both, you sacrifice power at the expense of outgoing healing.Tanks don't really need to invest in any offensive stats at all beyond what they need to keep aggro, considering I have seen tanks holding aggro in ToMM using MW 3 weapons, that pretty much means almost anything is good enogh offensively.
The thing is, because healers and tanks have less stats they need to invest into, there is less room for progress. Healers and Tanks (imo) need to be given more stats which effect their performance, because right now there aren't actually enough.
the FIRST thing to do is bring down, by a lot, how much a dps can survive w/o supporters, no matter the dungeon level. because, right now, the opposite exist (or is worst w/o offensive supporters).
The Tank progression is bi-modal.
That is, tanks hit a "sweet spot" somewhere between "endgame ready" and "ubermensche" where they easily cap all of their defensive stats, push their HP to near max... then gain nothing in productivity for a while...
but then (if they have not quit the game out of boredom) put all of their many excess resources into DPS.
Took retired Took's Vanguard before phase three, but Took just arrived at stage 3 on Took OP.
DPS investment increases aggro potential, so that (theoretically) is something tanks could invest in.
So... that's a reason to keep playing tank.
Right?
Edit: Used a 1st person pronoun. Took blasphemy!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
for example, Trobriand. that is ONE MOMENT in the entire dungeon and we have 20 dungeons or more. the other point is, i already see dps surviving to that with bad healers.
second: what i wish for dps is some negative progression in your defensive mechanics as a tanks have in your offensive progression.
ignoring "multiplive bonus vs additive bonus" coming to offensive class features that already have in the top three ddealers, a tank receive -10% damage bonus and +40%hp/extra threat when choose your role. that means, tanks aways will have some advantage when improve your hp but a reduction of 10% in your offensive progression.
... i want the same for dps. -40%of hp when choose a dps role,+10%damage and threat reduction. Healers and charaters that still dont chose paragons will still the same.
then take the second tiers of dps and give "supporters roles too" after some adjustments, being that classes offensive/defensive supporters.
this game will receive in one day to another a lot of supporters.
our devs plan fix that damage formula for everbody. what that means, fighters and barbarians, as a dps, will do the same damage as a classes that have only one role.
what some of that "single roles" players will do when that happens? thing that unfair and leave.
some fighters/barbarians and sws (if buffed) will stoped to play your secundary function and play a dps role (because have more control) and then we will have even less suporters to create a party. w/o partys to play, more people will leave.
ok, lets create more content forcing that dual roles to play as a supporters... take all that players, how many are endgamers? we will have the same cicle happens Ad aeternum because of a certain behaviour?
ps:nop, ignoring the new trial, dps are faaaaaaaaaaaar to be helpless.
ps2: having offensive supporters and nerfing main dps survival you know who will have more control? offensive supporters. that means, who want "control" will play as a supporter, who want blink to destroy things will still a dps.
what this game lacks? supporters
1) Healers already overheal now. Reducing the HP of a dps, just increases the margin by which a healer overheals and means that a healer caps out on their gear progression even faster, thereby making the problem worse because they finish their gear progression even earlier.
2) DpS have to invest into more stats than healers already and in ToMM, investing into defensive stats are required. Making them have to invest even more to be able to even survive in ToMM, simply furthers the gap in gear progression between support and DpS.
3) If you reduce the hitpoints of a DpS by too much, you render the healer role completely meaningless. In order to be able to heal someone, they need to be able to survive being hit, but not survive by too much. Its a careful balance between instantly dying and not dying fast enough that makes a healer a valuable asset in the group.
4) That penalty technically already exists for a DpS. They could have had a baseline hp of x and a baseline damage of y, on the dps role they display it as, "gain 10% more damage, lose 40% hp" and if it was implemented as x/1.4 hp and y/0.9 damage, then leave tanks at the values x and y. The difference would be exactly the same as now between a tank and a DpS and it would simply display it on the DpS. If you really wanted to, you could have the same net effect without even showing the penalty, you just display only a positive buff on both roles, with the tank having an increase to hp and a dps having an increase to damage. Mathematically, you can get the same results in any of these ways and all you are changing is how you display it to the end user.
The fact of the matter is, the problem is not with DpS. The problem is with the design of the support classes as well as the stats in the game. The stats in the game are designed to facilitate DpS, they are not designed to facilitate healing or tanking.
-1 - the margin for healer is a tank hp pool. theoretically up to 40% or reduct to 40% a hp for dps dont change nothing, but bring dps in our little box in the most of content.
NOW, if you as a healer have enough heal power to do your job... choose a offensive-support paragon.
-2 - why that is a problem? be obsolete choosing a certain class and/or role is a problem.
-3 same as the item one. you know who will help in that situations too? tanks and threat reductions for dps.
4 -no, dont exist. dps received a lot of damage powers when chose a paragon and dont lose nothing in oposite . you dont receive hp penalitys. tanks PAY to get hp advantages. every progression in your gear is aditive to your charater.
note:If you really wanted to, you could have the same net effect without even showing the penalty, you just display only a positive buff on both roles, with the tank having an increase to hp and a dps having an increase to damage. Mathematically, you can get the same results in any of these ways and all you are changing is how you display it to the end user.
... the point is tanks have 40%more hp than a healer and healers have 40%more hp than a dps.
So, how much HP can a DpS realistically achieve? Well, if you invest heavily into HP, you will end up with over 400,000 HP. After reducing that by 40%, you would end up with 240,000 HP. At this point, it is not possible to live without paladin crit shields. It doesn't even matter how much a DC or an SW can heal you for, When Super Storm occurs, you will die. Period.
2) Neither healer nor tank are obsolete in the only content in the game that actually matters. Complaining about the state of content that is so easy that every class can solo it, is more a fault of the content then anything else. Try and do ToMM without a healer or tank, come back to me please when you finish it. I am waiting.
3) See 1.
4) My point still stands, its not my problem if you fail at highschool maths. The advantage of the healer is they can do this thing called healing, which you know, a DpS or tank cannot do. Tanks have 40% increased hp and much higher threat generation and because of that they have reduced DpS. There is no value to reducing the HP of a DpS, it adds nothing to the game.
DpS can still overgear ToMM...but, barely. If a dungeon was released that had even 4k higher of every counter stat than ToMM, you would be sacrificing power to build up your other stats as a DpS. The problem is that healers will never be in this situation and neither will tanks, because the stats they have don't matter to them.
If you think that is not the case, you either have only or never ran with good tanks and never realized it.
Maybe trying to run all this unrelevant loser content as a real party instead of just some ppl that don't interact and oh, have a tank! (Must be a tank, got a shield! Right.)
I never felt like the good tanks I ran with were useless or taking up (dps) space.
In all this completely solo-able boring unrelevant content I run, I mean. Don't take it seriously.
that is the main subject of the topic. that is the reality of the game, rework after rework.
You have not shown:
1) That content designed for current levels of gear does not require a healer or tank. IE, you haven't shown they are self sufficient.
2) How your "solution" addresses the issue of healers and tanks running out of meaningful improvements to make to their character. Yes, we know they can add more damage. Is it meaningful? Not really, no. A tank in ToMM who is fully set up for DpS contributes so little over a tank who is just tanking that the additional AD they spend may as well be deleted.
And in this particular argument, the burden of proof is yours.
Do you expect DpS to not be able to do daily quests solo? Yes/no. Because right now, that is all every single dungeon is with the exception of ToMM. A glorified daily quest and surprise surprise, solo content doesn't need classes to be self sufficient in order to clear it up. I can run those dungeons solo with any class, it just happens to be faster on a DpS because they do more damage, but that doesn't change the fact that the dungeons in this game are basically just instanced daily quests.
And this really isn't about me, so don't try and pretend it is. This game is in a position where players can't afford for agenda pushing BS to nudge it astray. Your solution is just misguided and doesn't fix anything, hence I do not support it. It won't even stop players soloing dungeons, because that 260k hp I pointed out above? That HP total is still far more than enough to do that.
Tellme, HOW DEADLY FAST, IN A PARTY, YOU CAN CLEAN EVERTHING AS A SUPPORTER? IF THAT IS JUST ABOUT GEAR, TELLME, YOUR OOOOOOVER GEARED TANK KILL HORDES FAST AS A DPS in the most old content at least to contradict the main point of the topic? so... wtf are you talking about?
THAT is why FIRST I think is necessary creating offensive supporters. Because this game is not about survive long as you can, but finish dungeons fast as you can. I sayed a game, not TOMM. TOMM is not a rule, is a exception. Soon or later will be part of that snowball.
So. instead to have "dual roles" we have offensive/defensive supporters paragons. And only the 3 main classes will be full dpses (paying a fair price to that). So who is not a god like you don’t will soloing every content using a healer like a HAMSTER (if necessary).
NOW, by my own necessity i will choose play my suporter offensively or defensively, not because iam using a certain gear, but because i have tools to do that, way better than now as my gear up. (that means, a 26k healer or tank will help a lot more instead to accept that "endgame dugeon meta" as a argument).
note: as i remember you dont think is fair a single role dps have the same damage as a dual role dps. i agree and change they to offensive/defensive supporters solve that. but, lets be honest, is not fair a main dps have so unquestionably superior to other roles.
"...the content shouldn't even be considered when making balance changes to classes."
The content is key to class balance. I think you are trying to say that the top end of character performance should not be defined by lower level content. right? I mean... players spend over a year bringing their characters up to top end. We don't want a grossly imbalanced class system during that time.. just because it IS balanced at the end.
I dont think that could break anything
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
A little bit of powersharing wouldn't have killed anybody, or a little bit of recovery, a little bit of mitigation...
However, devs can't balance and this is why we are here.
But alas, it won't matter anywhere but tomm. (Oh how I nearly wrote tong here, my brain got stuck some mods ago)
We had so much broken stuff and things one could use to fast run content that we might not want a start of a different era of this - even tho, if it takes 6 mods to mess with stuff badly enough, who knows if we are still here then. We could have more exciting 6 mods than this last 2(/3) for sure.
What else to run besides tomm, right. Nothing to do soon enough, then.
https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Bronzewood_Enchantment,_Rank_13
https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Chicken_(previous)
Maybe some more options would solve some of mentioned issues, sicne I really doubt that this game will turn again into a buff orientated one after deleting nearly options to overbuff a party.