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Tanks and DC´s need a big update asap
onlymat
Member Posts: 353 Arc User
The main prob generated with the rework of classes is: Tanks an Healers especially DC´s give nothing to a group.
It´s useless to upgrade a tank or a DC.
example:
run a Castle Never with a 10k tank run a castle never with a 26k tank - you will NOT feel a difference.
run a Castle Never with a 10k healer run a castle Never with a 26k healer - you will NOT feel a difference.
run a Castle Never with a 10k cw run a castle Never with a 26 k cw - you feel the difference the whole group feels the difference.
This means - Upgrades are ONLY usefull for DPS classes - it helps groups it upgrades the performance of groups - it makes the groups faster.
To upgrade a tank or a healer adds NOTHING to a group - This means in 99% of content it´s completly wasted to upgrade a tank or a healer.
As soon as people realise this - they change classes or they leave the game.
With my 26k healer I played since starting of Neverwinter I can now end up in groups not being able to finish Malabog. MY Toon doesn´t make a difference for the run. So it´s completly wasted resources to run a 26k helaer or to upgrade it even more. The same happens with tanks - I know many hi IL player tanks who also stopped playing Neverwinter because there is no more progress - you don´t feel a Difference if a 10k tabk is in Party or a 26k Tank. Because most of the high IL DC players and Tanks left with mod 16 or short after queues are not popping anymore.
In LOMM you can even run without a tank because one more DPS brings much more to the table than a 27k Pally Tank!
What needs to be done is: Make DC´s and Tanks usefull for the group again. They need to Buff the group so you can feel a difference if you run with a 26k Pally or 26k DC or you run with only 10k ones.
Mod 16 made DC´s an Tanks upgrades useless - the only time why you could upgrade your toon is to run TOMM - but even there you give nothing you don´t make a difference like DPS does. Big DPS you finish - big Support classes you stil fail! Thats wrong on too many lvls and this is not helathy for the overall community.
Upgrade Tanks and DC´s needs to be on Prio one and needs to be in the game asap - not sure if some players come back - but the ones still playing maybe stick around.
It´s useless to upgrade a tank or a DC.
example:
run a Castle Never with a 10k tank run a castle never with a 26k tank - you will NOT feel a difference.
run a Castle Never with a 10k healer run a castle Never with a 26k healer - you will NOT feel a difference.
run a Castle Never with a 10k cw run a castle Never with a 26 k cw - you feel the difference the whole group feels the difference.
This means - Upgrades are ONLY usefull for DPS classes - it helps groups it upgrades the performance of groups - it makes the groups faster.
To upgrade a tank or a healer adds NOTHING to a group - This means in 99% of content it´s completly wasted to upgrade a tank or a healer.
As soon as people realise this - they change classes or they leave the game.
With my 26k healer I played since starting of Neverwinter I can now end up in groups not being able to finish Malabog. MY Toon doesn´t make a difference for the run. So it´s completly wasted resources to run a 26k helaer or to upgrade it even more. The same happens with tanks - I know many hi IL player tanks who also stopped playing Neverwinter because there is no more progress - you don´t feel a Difference if a 10k tabk is in Party or a 26k Tank. Because most of the high IL DC players and Tanks left with mod 16 or short after queues are not popping anymore.
In LOMM you can even run without a tank because one more DPS brings much more to the table than a 27k Pally Tank!
What needs to be done is: Make DC´s and Tanks usefull for the group again. They need to Buff the group so you can feel a difference if you run with a 26k Pally or 26k DC or you run with only 10k ones.
Mod 16 made DC´s an Tanks upgrades useless - the only time why you could upgrade your toon is to run TOMM - but even there you give nothing you don´t make a difference like DPS does. Big DPS you finish - big Support classes you stil fail! Thats wrong on too many lvls and this is not helathy for the overall community.
Upgrade Tanks and DC´s needs to be on Prio one and needs to be in the game asap - not sure if some players come back - but the ones still playing maybe stick around.
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Comments
In ToNG my tank feels all the missing HP or such bonuses granted onto us by devs, so I would say at least tanks do have some tangible progression. ...that the game difficulty is inconsistent with random spikes and hollow areas is completely other problem.
with a 26K healer you can tank the boss so you dont need tank and can have 4xDPS
with a 26k tank you can solo the dungeon! so no wait to Queue pure WIN!!!
I suspect that you are running CN with a group of 26k characters.... LoL is time to pass to the next stage
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Tanks use full plate armor (over under-armor) and have shields and all else aside should be able to take hits others who do not wear such armor should not be able to watch from afar without shaky knees. I was in a ToMM run and afterward a wizard who was with us commented that when his shield was up he took an annihilation hit and it didn't phase him. These are the hits the tank is supposed to have to take so the rest of the team can stay alive. Wizards, mind you, wear cloth robes...cloth robes! Leave the egalitarian thinking to the politicians and preschool teachers. This is a class based game and meant to be played as a team, so make all classes viable and useful in their respective roles. Okay so I won't go through the entire thought process or this would be a book.
Next: Power has no cap and combat advantage has a very high cap--both DPS focused stats that make DPS toons more powerful as their class. Healers can cap their crit (and power works for healing too) at a much higher level to make them more powerful healers. What non-capped or even really high cap stat do Tanks get that makes them better particularly at tanking? ...crickets. This game seems to be very much DPS focused and not class focused. If any class other than a tank can be the first one Leroy Jenkinsing it into battle then there is something wrong.
My comments are focused on team play in dungeons and such and not on solo. Of course every toon should be balanced enough to complete solo stuff on their own. Although I will say that DPSers should have to be much more careful to stay alive on their own, and Tanks of course would have to change their focus to be more damaging during solo play or it would take all day to kill an imp
Thanks for the game and thanks for listening to us and continuing to make the game better and better Devs
Thats why I have chose the example! Better leave the tank and the healer at home and bring another DPS inside - no healer needed - progress for healers and Tanks are useless!
I don´t run with 26k groups - but I solo play alot and in earlier times I rando queued alot - but now - to queue as a healer or a tank makes no sense - YOU make NO difference for the run!
Tanks and healers are useful.
Is near the difference a 26k CW in the group to a 10k CW in a group?
No?
You see tanks and healers are NOT usefull - to upgrade them is wasted it helps 0 zero niente to the group!
On daily most people request my tank or heal.
I see in most /LFG, channels and chats; tank and heals are what people requesting more than dps.
From what I’ve seen Tank/Heal are still in high demands. If they do get an “upgrades” maybe more will play tank/heal.
very slowly now:
there are support classes and dps classes in Neverwinter
ok?
If you play an DPS class like a CW and queue for random queues you are in for doing damage.
The more damage you deal the faster the group finish the dungeon.
ok?
So this means:
every upgrade you do for your DPS class like cw where you achieve more damage is usefull not only for you but also for the whole group running the queue.
ok?
Now think about you are a DPS CW with 26K IL.
ok?
If you end up in your queue in Malabog for example with 1 other DPS 26k and the rest of the team is minimum IL to run this dungeon what will happen?
think about and?
YES you finish this dungeon still very fast because of the 2 guys 26k DPS in the group.
take a short break if too fast!
Now - we think about you join with a 26k healer a group - and the DPS is too weak what will happen?
Tada..... The group will fail because its not important if your tank or your dc is 26 or 27k or if hes only 10k. You will not feel ANY difference in the run - he makes no difference!
Conclusion:
If you run a DC or a tank and you can´t feel the difference between an 26k DC or a 10k DC why the 26k DC should upgrade?
You see the difference between a 10k CW and 26k CW - you can see NO difference in using a 10k healer or a 26k healer.
If you still don´t understand - sorry easier I can´t explain!
And no, no sub 20k healer or tank will come anywhere close to a 26k in terms of effectiveness in any content if the 26k player has functioning brain cells. You are just whining because you want buffing back and that won't happen.
tanks evolve to prolong fights, dps to shorten fights
example (forget numbers, that is just a theorical/hyperbolic Approach) a dps class - 10k - need 5 attacks to kill a enemie but die if take the same 5 attacks. a 10k tank need 15 attacks and die if take 15 attacks. so, one need another.
a 26k dps need one attack to kill multiple enemies and can take more than 10 attacks (but who cares? they area dead)
by the same progression, a tank can survive a lot, but take way more time to kill enemies. for dps, how long you are able to survive dont have more difference because you are able to kill your enemy more fast than that enemy are able to kill you (or kill you and a 10k tank). for a tank, in general, you will be tough enough to prolong a fight ad infinitum, but who will define the speed of this fight is a 10k dps.
BECAUSE OF THAT i think should exist offensive/defensive tanks for fighters/barbarians instead of dual roles.
take ToMM as an example, you can have all the dps you want but if the tank and healer are not at the top, you fail.
Again: what group setup runs better and faster (Malabog and CN):
Group 1: 10k helaer and 10 k tank 1 10k DPS 2 26k DPS
Group 2: 26k healer nad 26k tank 3 10k DPS
whats the better group and why?
Maybe you undestand ALL Dungeons have caps what needs to be reached to run it. You need a tank who can survive some hits you need a healer who can heal a certain amount of damage. You need DPS who reach the requirements to DPS down the enemies.
If your tank and healer are over the cap it gives NOTHING to the group. If the DPS is over the cap it gives more and more to the group so it makes sense to upgrade DPS. it always helps also in scaled content.
And the chance to fail on a Dungeon with my 26k DC is much higher and happens alot as if I run my 26K CW.
With my CW I deal too much of damage so even if the healer and tank is not good no prob in some seconds everything is dead.
With my healer it gives nothing too the group. If DPS is too weak they can´t beat it and as healer I can´t influnence it.
Maybe now its understandable why it makes no sense to upgrade a healer or a tank.
Last thing: why people run lomm without tanks? a 20k DPS additional is better than a 27k Tank.
Again: A tank and a DC does nothing for the group. If you have a 10k healer he influences the run as much a s a 26k DC.
Like I wrote: I play a healer since years and also a high damage DPS cw. But most of my friends who are tanks and healers are gone because of this. Tired to fauil a malabog with 26k healer. This doesn´t happen on my CW.
The reasons I wrote. If you can´t understand - no prob - maby my english is not good enough.
Scaling is jus a patch for something that should be adressed (dungeon dificulty). All the dungeons should be level 80 wo scalling and level up process should be something dungeon free so they dont mix things. And all the dungeons should have relevant rewards for a level 80 character like it was when the game was released.
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If your DPS can do 100k damage a second you upgrade it so it can do 200k damage per second its good you get something for your upgrade. DPS and DAMAGE is always needed. As more you update as more you get as more usefull you are.
If you can heal for 100k a second and upgrade your healer so you can heal 200k per second - its just not needed in MOST content - so its wasted update. If your tank can take hits 100k per second and survive you can upgrade him to survive 200k hits per second - its not needed in MOST content - its wasted update. Maybe now its clear what I want to say?
Only DPS upgrades make sense.
Upgrade a tank and a DC makes no sense - thats why tanks and healers left. It makes sense to a certain point but then you get no return for upgrades.
Tanks and healers needs to be changed so if you upgrade your DC or your Tank it also gives something for the group. Its just bad to upgrade an get NO effect.
In earlier times we had boons like burning guidance healing warmth - so we could also deal a little damage and if you are stronger you contribute more to the group. But now? All gone.
Tanks and Healers needs to be buffers again - if not they are dead. And you see that it happens everyone cries for tanks for all runs you need them because the random queue can´t be startet without them - but you don´t really need them for most content. As I wrote above - the quickest runs in LOMM are without a tank. Thats because a tanks gives NOTHING to a group. And with every new gear with every new mod it gets even worse for tanks and DC´s.
And scaling is part of the problem. Is just a bad patch to not upgrade the dungeons to the new level cap. Plain and simple. A bad solution that again comes with more problems that it solves. If every dungeon is hard enough to need a tank and a healer, you wont be here complaining that you are useless in X dungeon.
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When it boils down to it, the only real difference between a tank and the other roles in terms of survival is health. Even block isn't really mitigation, its just another form of Temp hitpoints. You still take just as much damage for the most part as a dps or healer does, just with a much larger health pool.
Defence/damage reduction and Deflect caps are pretty easy for anyone to cap, especially with the new gear which is available to anyone and these are the only real sources of mitigation and I think this is the main source of the problem, there just isn't enough core mechanics/abilities built into tanks right now that make them stand apart enough as "the tank"
Im sure the "but what about TOMM" argument will be raised and sure as it stands now you need tanks for it, but that's kinda the exception to the rule and will no doubt change down the line as gear improves, so it doesn't really negate the point.
Up until recently LoMM was the hardest content available along with watchers and they have been doable without a tank for months. This is a massive problem if the game is intending to use the trinity model when 1 of the trinity can so easily be replaced.
There is not enough tank only gear. there is not enough tank only mitigation. Too many attacks can be dodged ( which tanks cannot do) enemies in dungeons should melt none tanks in seconds. I Wouldn't dream of trying to do heroic dungeons or raids without a tank, even a badly geared tank back when playing WoW because even the best geared dps got obliterated.
Tanks should be vital and with more unique stats/caps. As it stands they are not