GF in vanguard path has too low agro generation. I tried to hold agro on monsters using [Enforced threat] but monsters still attacked healer. I think tanks need more aggression to play their role well.
Can I add 2 agrees? I want to add 2 agrees.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Guys plz ! 5 days of playing Vanguard Fighter only and after building some stats i Q for Shores and after that the lvl 80 dungeon. Stats : power: 62k, crit: about 28k, CA:low , DEF: 60k , DFL :40k, HP:350K and all the others stats in Cap (ArmPen=29k i think) New Weapon Set from trade bars at legendary, ALL the feats that boost aggro RESULT : after using ET and Anvil an 20k-ish dps with high CA could take that aggro For Fun i know that i have to boost my dps too but think a new player trying to play with a decent dps, as i see it he has 0 chance to hold that aggro and we want new player to be able to Q with us! don't we ? (the rotations i tried are similar to those others mentioned, but if anvil can't do the job i don't see how i can take that aggro back )
* playing the game since 2015 with 1 year break and i have to say that those 5 days i had the most fun i've ever had! ** plz take in mind if you didn'y already companion gear that boosts threat!! *** sry but i didn't even try to use Tab in any dungeon! Never felt like i need something like that, since i can use my Shift
My syntax and grammar are low as my THREAT is so forgive me in advance.
I recommend for every different class in the party, everyone in the group gains a 5-10% damage buff and takes 5-10% reduced damage. Whilst I find it unlikely the classes will be balanced within 1-2%, getting it within 5-10% should be possible and by providing a bonus for taking different classes along with you, it incentivizes taking along different classes where otherwise stacking a single class would technically be optimal.
5-10% each, for a possible total of 25-50% for a party of five? That seems way too high based on the minimal buffs I'm seeing on preview right now.
Also, I don't think penalizing a party because two friends/guildmates/whatever both have invested heavily in their Clerics for example, and both want to play that character today or for the week. I've seen this "rainbow party bonus" suggested so many times, going back to the early days of the game, and if you follow the logic you are creating exclusion in the name of inclusion.
"Sorry friend, we can't take you on this dungeon run, we are running a 'rainbow party' and we already have a Rogue. We really don't want to exclude anyone based on their class, hope you understand."
It is only 5-10% less if you have 2 of 1 class and 10-20% less if you have 2x 2 of 1 class, or 3x1 of 1 class. It doesn't penalize taking 1 or 2 duplicates too heavily, but it heavily penalizes stacking 5 of the same. The point is, the dungeon will still be complete able, but it will take longer, which is good because it prevents stacking multiples of the same class in the name of meta.
I've already read chatter of the notion of the Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, Cleric, Warlock meta for Dungeons, (when all the classes eventually achieve balance) allowing the flexibility of 3 Tanks, 3 Healers, and 4 DPS in all manner of combinations to suit the situation. Giving that group build an additional 25% damage and 25% reduced incoming damage would give it an even better edge. I have no idea if that group make up will or won't have any advantage whatsoever, but a 25% buff plus that flexibility will certainly give the impression of an advantage.
I manage to reproduce Moonwalk bug, it occurs when I press tab and side step at the same time ( mostly when i spam these)
i'd say it could be because I face one way when I initiate dig in animation but before it takse effect character try to face the other ( just my guess)
I dont know if this was reported here but: "Priestess of Sune" companion can cancel your animations making you copy her moves removing even guard and dig animations and effects.
This is great feedback- thanks! I've got it on our fix list. M.K.
Brazen Slash sometimes freezes the combo, forcing you to release the mouse button and start again. Bull Charge with the Focused Charge feat sometimes strikes twice Prepared Pierce sometimes doesn't apply the buff until after using Piercing Thrust I think you already know about the misplaced decimal in Into The Fray's AP generation. (/font>
Unfortunately, I'm not enjoying the fighter as much as I'd hoped.
It's frustratingly easy to whiff on secondary targets for Piercing Stab since the cone is pretty narrow at the base. The magnitude on the power implies that it's supposed to reliably hit multiple targets... maybe turning the power into a wide cylinder or moving the origin of the cone back a ways would help that happen, since a tank rarely has the luxury of his opponents lining up to punch him in the head, and even for the Dreadnaught, the sheer amount of shuffling and fidgeting that mobs do makes it kind of a HAMSTER shoot whether you'll hit any secondary targets. Maybe boost its magnitude by 50 or 60 when it only hits a single target? /shrug
First two swings of Brazen Slash feel like they should hit multiple targets (yes, I felt the same way about the animation when it was Crushing Surge, too). Hardly make-or-break, but even making a tight, focused arc attack would still differentiate it from Cleave. Still, at least it's not described as a cylinder anymore.
I definitely have to get used to attacking while blocking again; I think you've already mentioned removing the slide from Guarded Strike.
Feat and class feature options leave me pretty cold, mostly for the Vanguard(and shared features).
Greater Endurance needs to offer more than 5% run speed to feel interesting or worthwhile. At 15-20% I might slot it for content I outgeared.
Vigorous Strikes would have good synergy with Brazen slash, but the actual numerical value (+3% crit for not blocking) is nothing to write home about and isn't really worth the trade-off except in content you already outgear.
Shield Talent: Numbers? Can't gauge value without knowing values.
Combat Superiority running off of dailies instead of being hit is fine, but 3% damage is a joke.
Enduring Warrior is also questionable, to put it kindly; 5% damage reduction that only kicks in when below 20% health is a feature whose impact will be rarely, if ever, felt. For all that I know you're trying to differentiate the fighter and barbarian, for them to share named features and have the fighter ones be painfully worse is... odd. I'd really advise giving it the barbarian version's functionality, which has utility in both solo and group content and an effect that will be noticed, both due to more forgiving conditions, the presence of green numbers instead of slightly smaller red numbers when you're already up the creek, and more significant returns in EHP.
Ferocious Reaction would be more appealing if the character sheet tooltips gave a sense of what your ratings mean in your current zone; it's almost guesswork whether it's going to be a great source of passive damage, almost useless, or somewhere in between in any given zone.
Anvil of Challenge has obvious utility, but tying it to one of the longest cooldowns makes it less appealing in and of itself. I don't have specific advice on this one, but it does feel like it's missing something. Maybe also have it reduce the targets Awareness by a bit? The cooldown on Anvil is prohibitive enough that I don't see myself slotting it, but maybe that just means this feature isn't for me, not that there's necessarily something wrong with it.
Dreadnought-exclusive features are mostly okay, but again, numbers would be nice. Combat Recovery is gorgeous and Vengeful Blade seems like a good way to keep Vengeance rolling while soloing. Momentum and Greater Endurance could probably be bundled into a single feature, like 5% scaling up to 25% over two seconds, which would also open up another slot for something more interesting.
As for feats: Brazen Thrust is hard to gauge because you don't know how great the chance is. Is it greater if you finish a combo? How many hits do you have to land without a reset before a streak breaker kicks in? We're big boys and girls, we can handle knowing a little of the math going on under the hood.
I can't see Swordbreaker ever being worth it; the kind of enemies where you care about reducing a single enemy's damage aren't the kind of enemies you slot Kneebreaker for.
I do love the concept for Sheltering Wind; it's very Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret/Captain.
The entire fourth tier of feats for the Vanguard is just unappealing, since Dig In itself basically feels like a worse Block. A long-feeling cast time to become compulsorily stationary in a game like Neverwinter is more trouble than it's worth. I don't want a snap-taunt as our feature, either, and I know your design concept for the Vanguard tab feature is that it be something defensive. If the idea is to give the fighter some protection from flanking, how about a Grapple mechanic that yanks all melee-range enemies into your forward arc and massively slows them for a second or two? That's a significant control effect, so it shouldn't be spammable- either a cooldown, a charge based on blocking (something that worked like Vengeance, where you could store up to two charges of Grapple between blocks? Something to consider) Animation could be a slightly slower Enforced Threat.
Dreadnaught feats seem pretty good, overall. Nothing I can't imagine doing without, nothing I can't imagine taking.
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @dolrey said: > Also I am not sure that vanguard is really better in tanking than dreadnought (even if not worse).
It's not. Vanguard is far worse at tanking then Dreadnaught. In fact, having spent 2 full days on each, the disparity is worse then initially reported.
Dreadnaught's damage buff and skills vs Vanguards defensive buffs are crazy disproportionate as @dolrey said.
But it's worse then that. Because Vanguard has no damage and almost no hard taunt, the self-defense buffs are meaningless: Mobs are barely hitting the Vanguard anyway.
Mod16 threat is mostly determined by damage. More then ever before. Vanguard has no damage therefore no threat.
To use a pre-Mod16 analogy, you have a choice of GF Conqueror or GF Protector if that Protector cannot use KV or tabmark.
Vanguard is currently worthless.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
For some unknows reasons my character stands up while dig in is in effect and my stamina is not empty while i'm atacked by Undertakers Sniper
Steady Vegngeance feat works while out of combat when blocking
Momentum feature affects mount speed, atleast looks like it ( visual effects apear around character and movement speed change in character window.)
Griffon's Wrath tooltip is missleading for me, it sais:
"Delivers treefold attack to target enemy, dealing physical damage each hit"
by this i would presume i smash enemy 3 times when i hit that skill but i need to hit it 3 times for it to go into cool and if i don't it went into cool after some time. Unless its bug and not intended.
Heavy Slash animation doesn't fit at-will which should fluently flow from hit to hit. Looks like this overhead slash was finisher just cut out from some other longer animation and put there as at-will. As I said it doesn't fit at-will power.
Thanks for the feedback! In regards to Griffon's Wrath—it basically functions like a combo style at-will so its tool tipped similarly. You can actually hold it down just like an at-will, or you can decide to wait a few seconds between swings (mostly useful in PvP.)
On the topic of Heavy Slash—well, Heavy Slash is built to be something you only do every so often when there is a proc on it, or to keep the buff up, so it wasn't necessarily designed to flow together as a combo to be used over and over. But I do understand and appreciate the feedback.
Feedback: Guarded Strike(replaced Aggravating Strike) - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the small forward lunge! This has been requested for years, it is terrible and will get you killed in tight situations. If you don't know what I'm talking about, if your character does not hit an enemy hitbox when you use Guarded Strike you will be lunged forward a couple feet. This can happen even if you play perfectly due to lag or sometimes the enemies lose their hitbox (which I sincerely hope is a bug and not intentional).
Hello! Thanks for the feedback! It's coming, the removal of the forward step! I already signed up to remove this earlier in the thread, it won't make it in this week, I had to focus on other things this week, but it will be in as soon as I am able, hopefully next week!
On the topic of buffs, setup, and synergy. So, I've definitely played in groups where all the buffs and debuffs are stacked up to the point that you can unleash a godlike fury and crush even the strongest bosses in seconds. You mention that compared to those groups, group play in the new world really doesn't require communication.
Can you go more in-depth about the kind of communication or coordination or careful timing those old groups involved that you really enjoyed? Ultimately, I found that there is a lot of upfront research into what buffs and debuffs you need to take, and a little communication when forming the group (though far less as everyone is more experienced with their role) and then when the actual fighting starts, there is no real need for coordination, it usually boiled down to, throw up all the buffs and debuffs and when the bar hits critical mass, execute the boss with extreme prejudice. That was just my experience though, so I would love to hear more about things you liked.
I am not @rjc9000, so apologies for highjacking this post to respond to this. My feeling about what people liked about the old system was the co-ordination involved. For example, in the buff world, there are 3 types of groups:
Those who do not use buffs.
Those who use buffs but do not time them to create a buff window.
Those who use buffs and time them.
Group 3 has some amount of communication and synergy between them. The difference between group 1 and 2 is huge, but the difference between group 2 and 3 is also huge. The 3rd group is the one which is 1 shotting and trivializing everything, while group 2 simply has a convenient time.
The thing is, I don't believe buffs are necessary for this type of co-ordination, but the alternative is having very heavily mechanically focused dungeons, which, outside of wither's control station, we don't really have in Neverwinter and unfortunately the mechanics for withers would have been better utilized in a 10 man raid. I think that boss could have made a great 10 man raid, so I am disappointed that the mechanics side of that boss failed the way it did.
With that being said, there is 1 thing about the buff system that is in my opinion very good and doesn't need to be removed and that is that it heavily rewards taking many different types of class, not just stacking a single dps. I think we can keep that aspect in Neverwinter, whilst still removing buffs.
I recommend for every different class in the party, everyone in the group gains a 5-10% damage buff and takes 5-10% reduced damage. Whilst I find it unlikely the classes will be balanced within 1-2%, getting it within 5-10% should be possible and by providing a bonus for taking different classes along with you, it incentivizes taking along different classes where otherwise stacking a single class would technically be optimal.
You'll be happy to know that I absolutely have a diversity buff like the one you described on my mind at the moment. I can't confirm any details about it, but I am aiming to have something along those lines implemented.
In regards to coordination vis-a-vis bosses. I'm sorry to hear that you feel that Withers is the only boss with interesting mechanics! I've done a vast majority of the boss designs starting with Fangbreaker Island until now, so that stings!
That being said, as I've mentioned before, part of the reason we're making some of these changes is so that we can offer more compelling content, and particularly interesting boss fights is pretty high up there on the list. We do spend a lot of resources to make those fights, but no matter the complexity of the fight, it can usually be bypassed entirely by the groups that are most interested in challenging content, due to the fundamental issues at the core of the game on live.
I hope that some of the older boss designs will finally have the opportunity to provide at least a somewhat interesting fight in the post Module 16 landscape.
But most importantly, moving forward, we can design boss fights with a much more accurate eye towards things like DPS checks, and we can incorporate elements like tank swapping because the threat system is not such a mess. We are already have some exciting plans, but those plans will come after we make sure Module 16 is ready, of course.
Thank you for the feedback! We'll definitely make some improvements to threat generation if its still a problem after people get more used to the current system.
That being said, I did want to say—there will be absolutely no hard taunts moving forward. Additional threat generation, and snapping yourself to the top of the list will be the only types of positive threat management. (Negative threat management, such as Cleric's Divine Glow which halve your current threat, are also available in some cases.)
This is a deliberate decision we have made so that the gameplay surrounding threat is both more straightforward to understand and more predictable. It also allows for us to put in place things like tank swapping in 10-man trials. If things like at-wills snap you to the top of the list, this would also be bade and destroy the opportunity for those sorts of mechanics to exist. So with that in mind, that's why you won't see at-wills with that effect, or hard taunts in the game.
That being said, as I stated, we'll be adjusting threat up if everyone is continuing to have a problem with it once they've gotten used to the mechanics. In our own internal playtests I'm having no trouble keeping threat on paladin or fighter right now, so I'm hesitant to swing the dial too heavily in the other direction, but I'm also skeptical that everyone here is doing optimal DPS! So please keep sending your feedback along, we will absolutely be making adjustments.
After further testing of Fighter aggro mechanics, it seems to me like this is actually an issue tied to scaling to lower lvl content. In CN for example, I have a very hard time holding aggro from lvl 70 DPS players (me scaled down from 80). In the new Mad Mage dungeon, Vanguard feels A LOT better and aggro issues are almost purely based on my own playstyle
Thanks for the feedback, I'll be looking into this. This week's build will feature some fixes to snap aggro powers and some small passive increases to threat gain for tanks, let me know if they help at all for scaled content.
First, in regards to at-will damage: obviously, there's a very real mathematical difference between you choosing to use or not to use at-wills. I spent some time fighting through Omu on a fighter today, fought a variety of enemies, from undead to a Razortyrannus Rex, and while at-wills definitely don't do huge chunks of damage, you only need to swing your sword for about half as many seconds as your encounter's cooldown to do the same damage. (Comparing AoE at-will to AoE encounter, or single target at-will to single target encounter.)
I found that I could usually open up with 2 AoEs encounters, drop a single target encounter on a priority enemy, then cleave down the rest of the minions health before finishing off the the priority enemy with a single target at-will. Only in larger pulls needing to resort to a second round of encounters.
I think there's a huge sticker shock element going on here, and I recognize that ultimately perception is more important than reality, but I am curious, if you had to do put a number on it, what do you feel would be an acceptable amount of damage for at-wills to be dealing relative to encounters? We are absolutely considering making changes by the way, we'd just like to let everyone sit on the changes for at least a week or two before we adjust things. Obviously, we wouldn't have made these changes without thinking it was an improvement, and with any big changes, it can be slow to adapt. So while it may seem like we're being unresponsive to not change things immediately, we'd just like to not overreact to an initial shock.
Seeing some of the other posts, I think I see the picture where the dev team balanced powers around some "Damage versus time" function. I am guessing that is why At-wills have low damage, since they are meant to be spammed and don't have high values so they don't overtake Encounters in terms of damage.
I think that you would need to adjust classes on a per class basis, with additional factors accounted for, such as recharge speed, attack speed, or range.
--------- If the class has a reasonable about of cooldown recharging feats/passives (ie, not to the point where every class has an Arcane Empowerment effect all the time) or if their At-wills are supported by a hefty amount of extra damage, then I think it would be reasonable to keep their lower level of damage, as these classes are intended to be encounter heavy classes.
I think Wizard has the best example of this, with their At-will damage being even weaker than that of the Fighter/Barbarian classes. At-wills are not supposed to be the main focus on this class, your encounters and daily attacks are the focus. Even if the damage on, say, Scorching Burst is low, Smolder's damage is backing it up so.
For these types of classes, I'd leave their At-will damage alone and make the cooldown reducing passives/feats a little more effective and available much earlier (so new players don't need to wait for level 80 to finally be able to do something besides spamming At-wills when everything is on cooldown).
----- For classes intended to have little to no cooldown recharging feats/passives, I think you would want to globally buff these classes' At-wills and lower their encounter damage & daily damage, so their damage isn't concentrated in just daily attacks and encounters.
And remember to design feats/passives that encourage you to mix up your use of At-wills/Encounters!
On At-wills for these classes, I'd guess an average of about 100-150 magnitude per hit (whether it be versus multiple targets or against a single target), combined with decreasing encounter damage and daily damage by ~15%, would make these classes feel a lot better.
Funnily enough, I think people would like Fighter and Barbarian a lot more if the dev team transplanted Ranger level magnitude onto Fighter/Barbarian with these classes keeping their current feats. I recall Ranger's Clear the Ground hits 1 target and has magnitudes of 100 on the first two hits and 150 on the last hit while encounters like Cordon of Arrows has magnitude of 215. --- Also, I do hope that a certain Owlbear tester isn't telling you Fighter is fine just because they are using Into the Fray's ridiculous AP Gain bonus to constantly spam daily attacks (ie, Earthshaker, Shockwave, and Mow Down is 50% of their damage) while every other class is barely getting any daily attacks outside of ITF ...
Edgy, feel free to answer buffs, because I don't have enough time in the day or the post space to analyze buffs too.
Thanks for the feedback. Obviously, I am taking any feedback related to ITF with a grain of salt as it is most definitely super bugged.
On the topic of HR damage, and cool down reductions on other classes. Noworries and I are discussing the differences of the classes, and will be working to make sure they are comparable in terms of DPS. If those large scale cool down reductions stay, there will be changes as needed on other classes to ensure DPS is balanced.
Yes, tab mechanic is strange. Theoretically when you stay in [Dig in] your full stamina can absorb more damage thank to its regeneration (for example in X times). But the problem is that when in practice you stay on one place in [Dig in] you take in 2X times more damage because you can't move and all monsters just stay around you dealing damage with combat advantage (instead of for example running after you when you kite them using shield on shift key).
So, against groups of monsters with relatively low damage [Dig in] is not needed. And against groups of monsters with very high damage it is not effective. Here I also should say that I haven't tested it in PvP so may be [Dig in] is good there.
My conclusion is that [Dig in] needs in some adjustments to make it useful or better to say practical. Maybe buff or rework. For example just make it damage and CC immune for 5-6 seconds (not depending on your stamina) with 10s cooldown or something like that. Or just limit stamina drain (for example while in [Dig in] you can't lose more than ~10-15% of stamina per second)
As you can see from the comments above not only I think so.
@asterdahl could you please tell to developers about this issue. Thank you.
Ps: from the other hand may be [Dig in] does not look effective enough because of bug in [Shield talent] wich just does not increase stamina regeneration now.
I'll get right on that! Oh wait... Pardon me, I am the developer! I handled the redesign of fighter, and I am aware of the issues with Dig In, both the bugs, and that it is not really worth using in most cases at the moment.
Changes will absolutely be forthcoming, though not in this week's build I'm afraid.
I dont know if this was reported here but: "Priestess of Sune" companion can cancel your animations making you copy her moves removing even guard and dig animations and effects.
Thanks for the report! Forwarding to the companion designer.
GF in vanguard path has too low agro generation. I tried to hold agro on monsters using [Enforced threat] but monsters still attacked healer. I think tanks need more aggression to play their role well.
Enforced Threat and all other snap aggro powers will be fixed in this Friday's build. To give you a little insight, when you exceed someone's threat, and become the top of the aggro list, you get a small buffer of free and temporary threat, so that the enemy doesn't ping-pong back and forth too often. Then, the other player must exceed that buffer as well as any other threat you build in the meantime before regaining aggro.
Basically, snap aggro powers were neglecting to overcome the buffer, setting you just below the buffer. When you hit EF now, you will be 100% at the top of the list of everything you hit. You can still lose it afterward, but threat has also been increased a bit globally for tank passives in this build as well.
And of course, more changes will come in the future based on continued feedback.
Because the GF DPS has only one companion attack bonus, you should distinguish the DPS builds from those companion bonus tanks. As you have spelled for the Warlock
Because the GF does not have any similar paladin-like mechanics, I mean that you could use meetings that consume Veangeance as it already does, but by removing the couldown on some Encounter. So as it is now you can not even do heroics in the guild fortress. Think about it
the "TAB" Mechanics button on the SWdps -OP tank- GF and really hurt. I understand your intentions to remove the recovery but it seems to me that you are exaggerating. The shield op tank "tab" is really useless with mobs, pass us through it, what blocks? the flies?
For some unknows reasons my character stands up while dig in is in effect and my stamina is not empty while i'm atacked by Undertakers Sniper
Steady Vegngeance feat works while out of combat when blocking
Momentum feature affects mount speed, atleast looks like it ( visual effects apear around character and movement speed change in character window.)
Griffon's Wrath tooltip is missleading for me, it sais:
"Delivers treefold attack to target enemy, dealing physical damage each hit"
by this i would presume i smash enemy 3 times when i hit that skill but i need to hit it 3 times for it to go into cool and if i don't it went into cool after some time. Unless its bug and not intended.
Heavy Slash animation doesn't fit at-will which should fluently flow from hit to hit. Looks like this overhead slash was finisher just cut out from some other longer animation and put there as at-will. As I said it doesn't fit at-will power.
Thanks for the feedback! In regards to Griffon's Wrath—it basically functions like a combo style at-will so its tool tipped similarly. You can actually hold it down just like an at-will, or you can decide to wait a few seconds between swings (mostly useful in PvP.)
On the topic of Heavy Slash—well, Heavy Slash is built to be something you only do every so often when there is a proc on it, or to keep the buff up, so it wasn't necessarily designed to flow together as a combo to be used over and over. But I do understand and appreciate the feedback.
I understand that it's not meant to be held down, but the beginning and end if the animation do feel kinda stuttery... Maybe something conceptually similar to CO's Massacre animation, or a chop->uppercut? It's not technically a combo, but just having two alternating animations makes it seem much smoother.
Up until now, I have enjoyed the versatility of playing a gf--I could be a buffer, a tank, a dps'r. Clearly we weren't king tank (op's had that job), and we weren't king dpser (though solo target we were near the top), we may have been king buffer (although that would be shared with hr buffers/ templocks/mof).
Along comes the new mod!
Well, right from the start, buffer is no longer available. So 1/3 of our versatility gone.
DPS? I don't think so, specially since gf has to take 3 defensive pet abilities even when dps, and these feat choices? Yikes. I see the gf as probably about 5th or 6th on the dps list choice, maybe lower. So 2/3 of our versatility gone.
So now all we are left with is TANK. Well, maybe it won't be so bad, we can build our movement up so we can have fun positioning ourselves around the mobs and grabbing aggro before....oh wait, NO MOVEMENT. So really gf is now just a combat dummy the party drags along, with probably the same movement speed as said combat dummy. I'm not even going to get into the threat generation abilities as they seem to be broken.
At the very least, I'd suggest rolling back the tank spec damage penalty for atwills, maybe even add a Riposte mechanic where blocking attacks gives you a short duration of bonus atwill damage- not enough to make them hit like Encounters, obviously, but enough to constitute a damage increase proportional to the amount of time you expect us to spend blocking and encourage us to stop blocking to get a hit in.
On the topic, given that tanks spend less of their time attacking (as it's generally our job to make the healer's life easier by blocking a hit, even with Encounters off cooldown, rather than to keep attacking unless we're actively losing threat), is the damage penalty even needed at all? We're not generally going to outdps the dps in our groups, since we'll be in front of the mobs(no consistent Combat Advantage, less incentive to gear for it), we won't be chasing offensive stats as hard due to needing to balance them with defensive ones, and we have less offensive uptime due to blocking when the dps is attacking.
(post isn't showing up in Stats/mechanics, dunno why, giving it a shot over here)
Moved this over from the Stats and mechanics thread, but the Riposte mechanic sounds awesome.
Please consider the Riposte/counter attack mechanic for the Dreadnought path as well as the Vanguard path.
For the effect, I'd suggest something like "your At-wills deal 50 magnitude extra damage for 5 seconds after Guarding an attack".
If the dev team is worried about people hiding behind their shield all the time, then make the duration 3-4 seconds start after dropping shield and make it so the effect cannot be refreshed until after the effect expires (ie, you need to run out the 3-4 second duration, then shield another hit).
While I know it was considered for tank specs, I think it would work great on the Dreadnought path due to fitting with the theme of the Fighter class: the martial class that had to rely on awareness and thinking rather than brute force (GWF) or godly powers (OP). Having a mechanic that rewards you for patiently watching for and analyzing enemy attacks fits.
Seeing as the original post was to put it on all tank classes, I hope that should this effect be placed on the other tanks, then there would be some differentiation between the versions of Riposte. This is to give the classes uniqueness in mechanics.
For example, if you gave it to Paladin, you could name it "Wrath of the Gods", give the Paladin the At-will boost as with Riposte, +5000 Defense under the effect, and give the Paladin +5% extra damage for (insert duration here) if the attacker was Undead/Vampire/Demonic (to give a nod to the source material of Paladins being great of vanquishing the "unholy").
On the topic of HR damage, and cool down reductions on other classes. Noworries and I are discussing the differences of the classes, and will be working to make sure they are comparable in terms of DPS. If those large scale cool down reductions stay, there will be changes as needed on other classes to ensure DPS is balanced.
Please don't nerf the Ranger's base damage or cooldown reductions. If Ranger is supposed to differentiate itself by being the fast paced agile glass cannon, then trying to make it play like a slower paced class (ie, Fighter) will not be fun.
And yes, I know this is the Fighter feedback thread.
Please don't nerf classes just so everyone is equally dealing low damage (coughcoughwarlockcoughcough). While balanced, it's not fun.
I'd also hope noworries opts to buff the weaker classes to around the level of the strongest classes rather than the other way around...
Can you go more in-depth about the kind of communication or coordination or careful timing those old groups involved that you really enjoyed? Ultimately, I found that there is a lot of upfront research into what buffs and debuffs you need to take, and a little communication when forming the group (though far less as everyone is more experienced with their role) and then when the actual fighting starts, there is no real need for coordination, it usually boiled down to, throw up all the buffs and debuffs and when the bar hits critical mass, execute the boss with extreme prejudice. That was just my experience though, so I would love to hear more about things you liked.
Obviously, we're not going to do a major reverse course on buffs—we do strongly believe that we're bringing the game to a better place, one where more styles of gameplay, where more roles and more classes are welcome, and where we can provide new and more varied challenges that we could before. But that doesn't mean we don't want to learn about the things you loved that may be gone now, so that hopefully we can make improvements in the future.
1. I'm not rjc9000 but right now a GF would try to keep up ITF as much as possible, depending on the DPS time Commander's Strike as good as possible and provide another debuff through one of the feats, take damage to provide AP to party member, drop shield deliberately to cast buff encounters all while doing all necessary tanking duties which is one of the main differences to current tank (and also healer) classes. Even if the coordination and communication required is minimal, it's at least more then nothing.
2. If you play with veterans or of course since you're one of the developers things do indeed become a bit of a routine. For most people it's a learning experience... and rewarding once you get it right due to the timing and teamplay required. And while buffs right now on live are a little bit too effective, removing them almost entirely to create something "more interesting" is like removing king & queen from Chess.
I'm not sold on the dig in mechanic as it is at the moment. Would there be any consideration for the Vanguard path to be able to shield nearby allies with a different block on the tab key which would have a lower resistance to damage than the regular shift block mechanic? Then for dreadnought you could always have a skill to charge forward with your shield on tab, expending some vengeance perhaps to knock back some enemies? As otherwise I only see the point of digging in as slowing your dps down to gain vengeance and wreck your shield bar or to sit and not be able to at-will for extra incoming healing. Plus then the dreadnought could be more akin to the shield warrior's wrath- blocking attacks for more damage from vengeance.
For some unknows reasons my character stands up while dig in is in effect and my stamina is not empty while i'm atacked by Undertakers Sniper
Steady Vegngeance feat works while out of combat when blocking
Momentum feature affects mount speed, atleast looks like it ( visual effects apear around character and movement speed change in character window.)
Griffon's Wrath tooltip is missleading for me, it sais:
"Delivers treefold attack to target enemy, dealing physical damage each hit"
by this i would presume i smash enemy 3 times when i hit that skill but i need to hit it 3 times for it to go into cool and if i don't it went into cool after some time. Unless its bug and not intended.
Heavy Slash animation doesn't fit at-will which should fluently flow from hit to hit. Looks like this overhead slash was finisher just cut out from some other longer animation and put there as at-will. As I said it doesn't fit at-will power.
Thanks for the feedback! In regards to Griffon's Wrath—it basically functions like a combo style at-will so its tool tipped similarly. You can actually hold it down just like an at-will, or you can decide to wait a few seconds between swings (mostly useful in PvP.)
On the topic of Heavy Slash—well, Heavy Slash is built to be something you only do every so often when there is a proc on it, or to keep the buff up, so it wasn't necessarily designed to flow together as a combo to be used over and over. But I do understand and appreciate the feedback.
I understand that it's not meant to be held down, but the beginning and end if the animation do feel kinda stuttery... Maybe something conceptually similar to CO's Massacre animation, or a chop->uppercut? It's not technically a combo, but just having two alternating animations makes it seem much smoother.
Just to clarify—I wasn't indicating that it was not meant to be held down, in fact quite the opposite, I was clarifying that it can be held down. (And in most cases probably should be held down, because otherwise you're wasting DPS time, but you can sit on it for longer than an at-will combo in cases like PvP where you might want to bait a dodge.)
That said, there are some animation issues in the preview week 1 build that should be resolved in this coming build, but I will take a look and see if we can make some further improvements.
Up until now, I have enjoyed the versatility of playing a gf--I could be a buffer, a tank, a dps'r. Clearly we weren't king tank (op's had that job), and we weren't king dpser (though solo target we were near the top), we may have been king buffer (although that would be shared with hr buffers/ templocks/mof).
Along comes the new mod!
Well, right from the start, buffer is no longer available. So 1/3 of our versatility gone.
DPS? I don't think so, specially since gf has to take 3 defensive pet abilities even when dps, and these feat choices? Yikes. I see the gf as probably about 5th or 6th on the dps list choice, maybe lower. So 2/3 of our versatility gone.
So now all we are left with is TANK. Well, maybe it won't be so bad, we can build our movement up so we can have fun positioning ourselves around the mobs and grabbing aggro before....oh wait, NO MOVEMENT. So really gf is now just a combat dummy the party drags along, with probably the same movement speed as said combat dummy. I'm not even going to get into the threat generation abilities as they seem to be broken.
Can we get a change class token?
Hello! I'm sorry you're not having a good time with fighter right now. I am confused about your comment on the companion powers though—every class has the same companion power slots.
In regards to fighter's position relative to DPS and other tanks, I assure you, it will absolutely be competitive in both roles in the next few weeks. The final damage tuning for all the classes has yet to happen, since we're still making large adjustments to feats and some other powers, as well as bugfixes, the numbers are not nearly in their final positions.
I hope you continue to watch the changes over the next few weeks. Next week should see some functional changes that should increase viability for DPS, and then in the following weeks we'll be honing in on the final balance numbers. We'll also continue to make adjustments after the module goes live. We're in a much better position now to make adjustments based on how we see the classes trending.
Comments
I want to add 2 agrees.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
5 days of playing Vanguard Fighter only and after building some stats i Q for Shores and after that the lvl 80 dungeon.
Stats : power: 62k, crit: about 28k, CA:low , DEF: 60k , DFL :40k, HP:350K and all the others stats in Cap (ArmPen=29k i think) New Weapon Set from trade bars at legendary, ALL the feats that boost aggro
RESULT : after using ET and Anvil an 20k-ish dps with high CA could take that aggro For Fun
i know that i have to boost my dps too but think a new player trying to play with a decent dps, as i see it he has 0 chance to hold that aggro
(the rotations i tried are similar to those others mentioned, but if anvil can't do the job i don't see how i can take that aggro back
* playing the game since 2015 with 1 year break and i have to say that those 5 days i had the most fun i've ever had!
** plz take in mind if you didn'y already companion gear that boosts threat!!
*** sry but i didn't even try to use Tab in any dungeon! Never felt like i need something like that, since i can use my Shift
My syntax and grammar are low as my THREAT is so forgive me in advance.
I have no idea if that group make up will or won't have any advantage whatsoever, but a 25% buff plus that flexibility will certainly give the impression of an advantage.
I manage to reproduce Moonwalk bug, it occurs when I press tab and side step at the same time ( mostly when i spam these)
i'd say it could be because I face one way when I initiate dig in animation but before it takse effect character try to face the other ( just my guess)
M.K.
Bull Charge with the Focused Charge feat sometimes strikes twice
Prepared Pierce sometimes doesn't apply the buff until after using Piercing Thrust
I think you already know about the misplaced decimal in Into The Fray's AP generation.
(/font>
Unfortunately, I'm not enjoying the fighter as much as I'd hoped.
It's frustratingly easy to whiff on secondary targets for Piercing Stab since the cone is pretty narrow at the base. The magnitude on the power implies that it's supposed to reliably hit multiple targets... maybe turning the power into a wide cylinder or moving the origin of the cone back a ways would help that happen, since a tank rarely has the luxury of his opponents lining up to punch him in the head, and even for the Dreadnaught, the sheer amount of shuffling and fidgeting that mobs do makes it kind of a HAMSTER shoot whether you'll hit any secondary targets. Maybe boost its magnitude by 50 or 60 when it only hits a single target? /shrug
First two swings of Brazen Slash feel like they should hit multiple targets (yes, I felt the same way about the animation when it was Crushing Surge, too). Hardly make-or-break, but even making a tight, focused arc attack would still differentiate it from Cleave. Still, at least it's not described as a cylinder anymore.
I definitely have to get used to attacking while blocking again; I think you've already mentioned removing the slide from Guarded Strike.
Feat and class feature options leave me pretty cold, mostly for the Vanguard(and shared features).
Greater Endurance needs to offer more than 5% run speed to feel interesting or worthwhile. At 15-20% I might slot it for content I outgeared.
Vigorous Strikes would have good synergy with Brazen slash, but the actual numerical value (+3% crit for not blocking) is nothing to write home about and isn't really worth the trade-off except in content you already outgear.
Shield Talent: Numbers? Can't gauge value without knowing values.
Combat Superiority running off of dailies instead of being hit is fine, but 3% damage is a joke.
Enduring Warrior is also questionable, to put it kindly; 5% damage reduction that only kicks in when below 20% health is a feature whose impact will be rarely, if ever, felt. For all that I know you're trying to differentiate the fighter and barbarian, for them to share named features and have the fighter ones be painfully worse is... odd. I'd really advise giving it the barbarian version's functionality, which has utility in both solo and group content and an effect that will be noticed, both due to more forgiving conditions, the presence of green numbers instead of slightly smaller red numbers when you're already up the creek, and more significant returns in EHP.
Ferocious Reaction would be more appealing if the character sheet tooltips gave a sense of what your ratings mean in your current zone; it's almost guesswork whether it's going to be a great source of passive damage, almost useless, or somewhere in between in any given zone.
Anvil of Challenge has obvious utility, but tying it to one of the longest cooldowns makes it less appealing in and of itself. I don't have specific advice on this one, but it does feel like it's missing something. Maybe also have it reduce the targets Awareness by a bit? The cooldown on Anvil is prohibitive enough that I don't see myself slotting it, but maybe that just means this feature isn't for me, not that there's necessarily something wrong with it.
Dreadnought-exclusive features are mostly okay, but again, numbers would be nice. Combat Recovery is gorgeous and Vengeful Blade seems like a good way to keep Vengeance rolling while soloing. Momentum and Greater Endurance could probably be bundled into a single feature, like 5% scaling up to 25% over two seconds, which would also open up another slot for something more interesting.
As for feats:
Brazen Thrust is hard to gauge because you don't know how great the chance is. Is it greater if you finish a combo? How many hits do you have to land without a reset before a streak breaker kicks in? We're big boys and girls, we can handle knowing a little of the math going on under the hood.
I can't see Swordbreaker ever being worth it; the kind of enemies where you care about reducing a single enemy's damage aren't the kind of enemies you slot Kneebreaker for.
I do love the concept for Sheltering Wind; it's very Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret/Captain.
The entire fourth tier of feats for the Vanguard is just unappealing, since Dig In itself basically feels like a worse Block. A long-feeling cast time to become compulsorily stationary in a game like Neverwinter is more trouble than it's worth. I don't want a snap-taunt as our feature, either, and I know your design concept for the Vanguard tab feature is that it be something defensive. If the idea is to give the fighter some protection from flanking, how about a Grapple mechanic that yanks all melee-range enemies into your forward arc and massively slows them for a second or two? That's a significant control effect, so it shouldn't be spammable- either a cooldown, a charge based on blocking (something that worked like Vengeance, where you could store up to two charges of Grapple between blocks? Something to consider) Animation could be a slightly slower Enforced Threat.
Dreadnaught feats seem pretty good, overall. Nothing I can't imagine doing without, nothing I can't imagine taking.
> Also I am not sure that vanguard is really better in tanking than dreadnought (even if not worse).
It's not. Vanguard is far worse at tanking then Dreadnaught.
In fact, having spent 2 full days on each, the disparity is worse then initially reported.
Dreadnaught's damage buff and skills vs Vanguards defensive buffs are crazy disproportionate as @dolrey said.
But it's worse then that. Because Vanguard has no damage and almost no hard taunt, the self-defense buffs are meaningless: Mobs are barely hitting the Vanguard anyway.
Mod16 threat is mostly determined by damage. More then ever before. Vanguard has no damage therefore no threat.
To use a pre-Mod16 analogy, you have a choice of GF Conqueror or GF Protector if that Protector cannot use KV or tabmark.
Vanguard is currently worthless.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
On the topic of Heavy Slash—well, Heavy Slash is built to be something you only do every so often when there is a proc on it, or to keep the buff up, so it wasn't necessarily designed to flow together as a combo to be used over and over. But I do understand and appreciate the feedback.
In regards to coordination vis-a-vis bosses. I'm sorry to hear that you feel that Withers is the only boss with interesting mechanics! I've done a vast majority of the boss designs starting with Fangbreaker Island until now, so that stings!
That being said, as I've mentioned before, part of the reason we're making some of these changes is so that we can offer more compelling content, and particularly interesting boss fights is pretty high up there on the list. We do spend a lot of resources to make those fights, but no matter the complexity of the fight, it can usually be bypassed entirely by the groups that are most interested in challenging content, due to the fundamental issues at the core of the game on live.
I hope that some of the older boss designs will finally have the opportunity to provide at least a somewhat interesting fight in the post Module 16 landscape.
But most importantly, moving forward, we can design boss fights with a much more accurate eye towards things like DPS checks, and we can incorporate elements like tank swapping because the threat system is not such a mess. We are already have some exciting plans, but those plans will come after we make sure Module 16 is ready, of course.
On the topic of HR damage, and cool down reductions on other classes. Noworries and I are discussing the differences of the classes, and will be working to make sure they are comparable in terms of DPS. If those large scale cool down reductions stay, there will be changes as needed on other classes to ensure DPS is balanced.
Changes will absolutely be forthcoming, though not in this week's build I'm afraid.
Thanks for the report! Forwarding to the companion designer.
Basically, snap aggro powers were neglecting to overcome the buffer, setting you just below the buffer. When you hit EF now, you will be 100% at the top of the list of everything you hit. You can still lose it afterward, but threat has also been increased a bit globally for tank passives in this build as well.
And of course, more changes will come in the future based on continued feedback.
As you have spelled for the Warlock
So as it is now you can not even do heroics in the guild fortress.
Think about it
I understand your intentions to remove the recovery but it seems to me that you are exaggerating.
The shield op tank "tab" is really useless with mobs, pass us through it, what blocks? the flies?
Heavy Slash only deals 80 magnitude, tooltip says 100
Commander's Strike damage is not affected by ability scores
Commander's Strike debuff is 10%, not 5% like stated on the tooltip
Along comes the new mod!
Well, right from the start, buffer is no longer available. So 1/3 of our versatility gone.
DPS? I don't think so, specially since gf has to take 3 defensive pet abilities even when dps, and these feat choices? Yikes. I see the gf as probably about 5th or 6th on the dps list choice, maybe lower. So 2/3 of our versatility gone.
So now all we are left with is TANK. Well, maybe it won't be so bad, we can build our movement up so we can have fun positioning ourselves around the mobs and grabbing aggro before....oh wait, NO MOVEMENT. So really gf is now just a combat dummy the party drags along, with probably the same movement speed as said combat dummy. I'm not even going to get into the threat generation abilities as they seem to be broken.
Can we get a change class token?
Please consider the Riposte/counter attack mechanic for the Dreadnought path as well as the Vanguard path.
For the effect, I'd suggest something like "your At-wills deal 50 magnitude extra damage for 5 seconds after Guarding an attack".
If the dev team is worried about people hiding behind their shield all the time, then make the duration 3-4 seconds start after dropping shield and make it so the effect cannot be refreshed until after the effect expires (ie, you need to run out the 3-4 second duration, then shield another hit).
While I know it was considered for tank specs, I think it would work great on the Dreadnought path due to fitting with the theme of the Fighter class: the martial class that had to rely on awareness and thinking rather than brute force (GWF) or godly powers (OP). Having a mechanic that rewards you for patiently watching for and analyzing enemy attacks fits.
Seeing as the original post was to put it on all tank classes, I hope that should this effect be placed on the other tanks, then there would be some differentiation between the versions of Riposte. This is to give the classes uniqueness in mechanics.
For example, if you gave it to Paladin, you could name it "Wrath of the Gods", give the Paladin the At-will boost as with Riposte, +5000 Defense under the effect, and give the Paladin +5% extra damage for (insert duration here) if the attacker was Undead/Vampire/Demonic (to give a nod to the source material of Paladins being great of vanquishing the "unholy").
Please don't nerf the Ranger's base damage or cooldown reductions. If Ranger is supposed to differentiate itself by being the fast paced agile glass cannon, then trying to make it play like a slower paced class (ie, Fighter) will not be fun.
And yes, I know this is the Fighter feedback thread.
Please don't nerf classes just so everyone is equally dealing low damage (coughcoughwarlockcoughcough). While balanced, it's not fun.
I'd also hope noworries opts to buff the weaker classes to around the level of the strongest classes rather than the other way around...
2. If you play with veterans or of course since you're one of the developers things do indeed become a bit of a routine. For most people it's a learning experience... and rewarding once you get it right due to the timing and teamplay required. And while buffs right now on live are a little bit too effective, removing them almost entirely to create something "more interesting" is like removing king & queen from Chess.
That said, there are some animation issues in the preview week 1 build that should be resolved in this coming build, but I will take a look and see if we can make some further improvements.
In regards to fighter's position relative to DPS and other tanks, I assure you, it will absolutely be competitive in both roles in the next few weeks. The final damage tuning for all the classes has yet to happen, since we're still making large adjustments to feats and some other powers, as well as bugfixes, the numbers are not nearly in their final positions.
I hope you continue to watch the changes over the next few weeks. Next week should see some functional changes that should increase viability for DPS, and then in the following weeks we'll be honing in on the final balance numbers. We'll also continue to make adjustments after the module goes live. We're in a much better position now to make adjustments based on how we see the classes trending.