> - Low level players wanting to get the "full" experience of leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no higher level players "ruining" their experience.
>
> - High level players wanting to speed run leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no lower level players slowing them down.
So, basically, Your argument amounts to "If you don't have friends, then tough titties kiddo?"
Not at all, and a previous statement (below) even goes to clarify that it is a suggestion.
Unfortunately "tone" isn't "easily" conveyed as spoken language. It is a suggestion, more or less difficult depending on the player, their Guild(s)/Alliance(s) and or friend's list. It wasn't meant to come off as easy to do all the time but rather simply a suggested course of action/alternative rather than just letting the queue determine group composition.
A "few" moments to try and find a group can prevent being slowed down or rushed.
The statements were made in part in the context of HLP's complaining about being slowed down (they "should" have a number of "friends" right?), LLP's complaining about not getting the "experience" they are seeking (they wouldn't get that experience outside of an at level group so essentially grouping with other at level players is their "only" choice) and the issues that arise when both get grouped together via RQ by not pre-grouping.
Personally, for the most part unfamiliar players are treated by how they present themselves/their actions.
A LLP may or may not be a new player and may or may not have many "friends" though being on the outside looking in how can either be confirmed (other than class sigils, enchantments, account bound equipment)? With that being stated the more "passes" legitimate players get consequently the more passes abusing players get as well.
Yes things happen and sometimes players have to go AFK or legitimately disconnect though this is not always the case, some players abuse it by going "AFK" or "disconnecting" just to cheese rewards. First and foremost when a player queues for content they are committing themselves and others to it therefore they should have every intention of performing to the best of their ability and having at least 10-15 minutes for RQ (normal dungeon/skirmishes) though it is nearly impossible to determine who is legitimate and who is abusing.
Personally whenever a player "disconnects" at the start of the queue and or is "AFK" for a considerable amount of time/frequently "AFK" they are often reported for "AFK Farming Random Queue". Customer service has FAR more investigative options than players do, the reports are reasonable due to the action(s) of the player(s), players make the reports, CS makes the judgment call. Back when players could solo queue and get bonus RAD abusive players were seemingly "less" of an issue (depends) though with bonus RAD being removed from private queues and sometimes not having others to pre-group with legitimate players are often enough thrown in with the abusing bunch.
Queues DO pop much faster than before by using the RQ system (at least for normal dungeons and skirmishes) and getting to 36k RAD is arguably faster with normal dungeon/skirmishes and a few salvage pieces to cap, a downside being that you can be grouped with an abusing and or a player that does not match your goal (speed running, exploration).
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
The low level player was in a leveling dungeon that was a few steps above where he should have been.
So the low level player was in a dungeon ranked above their level? How is that possible?
Regardless, I do agree with you that the whole issue is the RQ system as it is presently implemented.
They might have the character level to access the dungeon but they dont have the gear score to run it except as a freeloader.
Ah I see, so they have the level but are not prepared to deal with what is inside. Makes sense now. Thanks @spunkmeier
That is why I do not go into some of the Epic Dugeons even though I have the minimum to get in. I realize I am not ready for what I have heard is waiting for me. LOL
My suggestion would be to put a timer on the final gate at the end where it absolutely will not open, even if all party members are assembled, for "x" minutes (15 minute dungeon - 10 minutes, 30 minute dungeon - 20 minutes).
Why?
Groups already have to wait for the slowest member, now additional time is being suggested on top of that? No way. The "problem", simply put revolves around not having consideration for other group members (HLP's and LLP's).
imo where they need to remove the vote to kick option is the levelling dungeons. or at least for actual low level characters. if they want to keep it on for the higher level characters I'd have no problem with that but the people who need to be there should be protected.
You can't have it "both" ways. Granting LLP's immunity from vote-to-kicks will help shield abusing players from being actioned against.
I don't know what method they used to leave, if it was the door or a VIP signpost, but their party portrait showed them in a couple different zones while the other person and I worked our way through the dungeon.
That's pretty much exactly what they did, that or the moonstone mask VIP teleport or a teleport scroll, ALL of which should prompt the user that proceeding with the action will remove them from the group and grant them the leaver penalty (including exiting via the entrance before the run is completed). It works similar to players intentionally "disconnecting" being that they can re-enter the instance at a later time and possibly collect rewards without contributing or contributing very little.
the people who que into a dungeon and then afk or go to pe for five minutes and then pop back in to see wehre you are and then pop back out need to be dealt with as well. Surely there must be away to put a stop to that..
There's really no legitimate reason(s) for a player to be able to enter a RQ then exit via the entrance/teleport AND remain in the group. When a player joins a RQ they should already be prepared (inventory space, seals aren't capped, etc.). Players will continue to use the entrance/teleports to abuse the RQ system if they are allowed to continue to use them AND remain in the group.
To add would like to see something along the lines of where players entering a RQ skirmish that don't enter the start circle within a "few" moments get removed from the group, this goes along with the previous statement of players entering a queue should be ready. Often enough players have to wait just to start the content because someone is sitting AFK at the entry point.
Post edited by trinity706#8838 on
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
My suggestion would be to put a timer on the final gate at the end where it absolutely will not open, even if all party members are assembled, for "x" minutes (15 minute dungeon - 10 minutes, 30 minute dungeon - 20 minutes).
Why?
Groups already have to wait for the slowest member, now additional time is being suggested on top of that? No way. The "problem", simply put revolves around not having consideration for other group members (HLP's and LLP's).
Actually groups are supposed to wait for a slower character to catch up... but don't always, hence the title of this thread.
If you were reading the Zone chat tonight in one instance there were a couple of level 20 something people complaining because they were kicked out of a the Cragmire Crypts and Cloak Tower dungeon for "being too slow"... I wasn't a part of that conversation but I kind of suspect the people who were complaing weren't too slow, instead the other characters were much faster and upset because the lower level players didn't or couldn't keep up.
At least that's what it seemed like to me when they mentioned they had to fight a bunch of bad guys and before they could even get to the end they got "kicked out".
Actually groups are supposed to wait for a slower character to catch up...
That's what a lot of HLP's do, they clear the mobs to the end and then wait for the LLP's to catch up so they all can enter the final area. Personally don't really mind slower players in the RQ group as long as they are continually making progress towards the end and attacking mobs instead of just standing around. From this end the intended trade off is the mobs get cleared, the rest of the group makes their way to the end, everybody gets rewards.
Have personally gotten kicked from a group in CT. After clearing the mobs from the beginning to the end and activating the "gather your party" circle, soon after got the loading screen, the other 2 in the group were LLP's. That incident wasn't fair whatsoever though goes to show that LLP's can be the one's exhibiting negative behavior as well. That is part of the other side of the coin that has previously been mentioned.
LLP's seeking an "at level experience" will more than likely not get it via RQ if they do not group first. There's essentially no way a lvl 14 can get the "full" experience with HLP's in the group, even if the HLP's stick close to the LLP they would still be 1 shotting the majority of the mobs, what kind of experience is that?
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I have had people message me in game asking why they got kicked and the answer is always something along the lines of:
-you looked like you were afk -you said you were going afk (dont care why, drop if you need to go afk) -you sat at the start for five minutes doing nothing -you were out of the dungeon -you were disconnected for more than five minutes -we thought you were a bot (stutter steps, running into walls, attacking already dead enemies, lots of clues to see here) -you intentionally did nothing (by sitting just out of combat repeatedly)
The theme here should be obvious, that they were not good players, but they always seem to think this means they were kicked for bad reasons and they should not have been kicked, but from both other players point of view they were justifiably kicked for being time wasting scum or just plain old freeloader scum.
Turn up, run the dungeon, dont take the HAMSTER by going afk, and very few people will even think about kicking you even if you are moving at the base speed or do no damage.
Yes, you will get the very rare situation that might have happened in this thread, and I say might have happened as we still dont know any actual details about that run (especially the character classes of the other players and the time he was kicked at, unless I missed these of course), but I still think it is far more likely that what actually happened in that dungeon is very different to what was said in this thread.
Again I will state that I have never seen a dungeon where two players ran by all the mobs in cloak tower and I have run well over a thousand cloak towers. I have never seen the two other players running past all the mobs in cragmire either.
The players you mention being kicked in ct and cc, again no details of what character classes the other players were and what time they got kicked at so you cant tell if the kicks were good kicks or not.
No one is speaking about "evidence", this may be the court of public opinion but evidentiary rules do not apply here and I made no statement as to the validity of that Zone chat conversation… but I did see a couple of people that I personally observed to have level 20 something characters (one a paladin and one a hunter ranger by the way), complaining about being kicked out of dungeons that should have been level appropriate for them supposedly because they were told they were: “too slow”.
I merely stated if anyone else was in my instance and watching Zone chat exchanges, they might have seen that exchange also.
So who gets to define “good players”?
Two faster players voting against a slower player - two slower player voting against a faster player - a two player who choose to ignore drops against another player chooses to collect them?
Should other players be in a position to judge if a party member is playing with sufficient skill or speed to be allowed to remain in the party even if that other player is actively participating and traversing the dungeon in a manner they choose?
The theme here is obvious and it is clearly stated in the title of this thread… A person was kicked out of the Cloak Tower by two other party members because those other party members didn’t believe that person was playing in a manner sufficient to their expectations.
What is also obvious is the mechanics of every dungeon… You start at point “A” you traverse to point “B”, eliminating or avoiding mobs along the way and you collect your reward.
There is no time limit, there is no requirement that a player ignore drops or that they should pick them up, there is not a prerequisite for the amount of time required to complete any dungeon and there is nothing that states a player shouldn’t be allowed to explore the environment along the way if they choose to do so.
As long as a player is present, as long as a player is progressing, as long as they are actually doing something within that dungeon they should be allowed to stay, period.
The only valid reason for kicking someone out of a dungeon in my opinion, is if a player is disconnected for a period of time or if a player is not progressing or participating in any way… not that they aren’t progressing or participating in a manner that is to the satisfaction of other members.
I would change this from high level players to anyone who is not a new player.
The term HLP means "higher level player" which includes character level, ilvl, player experience, etc. There is only so much an actual lvl 12 character can benefit from via items/things passed to it. There is LLC (lower level content) that even developed lvl 70 characters can't one shot due to being scaled down so in the case of CT an actual lvl 12 character, even "boosted" with goodies wouldn't either. The "at level experience" is more achievable with at level characters even if they are boosted, played by an experienced player though it is essentially impossible with developed characters who are outside of that level range.
The "at level experience" and the difficulty of achieving it outside of a preformed at level group was brought up because it was an argument presented. Even before RQ's the likely hood of queuing for specific content (CT) and getting all level 12-16's was very low, if possible at all.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
out of the 3 epic dungeons i've done, level 70 stats but only just 8k gear mind you, i'm always the slowest, i'm a GF, so hits hard, stays the course in action, but yes the slowest mover around, so tend to be at the back now in the newer places, having no way to keep up, so yes always feeling left out, quite a few times i've felt rushed and not wanted, but you know what, tough, i may not have the speed or time in game as those who wish to run the dungeon and miss almost 70 to 80% out and just get to the end, but you know what, that's life, everyone starts off the same and has to work there way up, if your supper quick and cna do it on your own, then form a group and do it, all of my 3 attempts atm were my first times, so had no idea on what i was doing, but yes it looked like everyone else had done it 100 times plus, so that's the issue, not how slow i am, but having no idea on 1st time entry, so for me, the que's don't work, as those who wish to do speed runs, should have imo another button to press so slower users like me, don't get put with them, so everyone gets a fair crack at the ones you wish to play and explore, then opt out of the super speed users and not slow them down
so that's the issue, not how slow i am, but having no idea on 1st time entry, so for me, the que's don't work, as those who wish to do speed runs, should have imo another button to press so slower users like me, don't get put with them, so everyone gets a fair crack at the ones you wish to play and explore, then opt out of the super speed users and not slow them down
Maybe a count variable for each dungeon run. If it is 0 to 5 for that dungeon you get queued with others of the same range. Might take longer to pop.
out of the 3 epic dungeons i've done, level 70 stats but only just 8k gear mind you, i'm always the slowest, i'm a GF, so hits hard, stays the course in action, but yes the slowest mover around, so tend to be at the back now in the newer places, having no way to keep up, so yes always feeling left out, quite a few times i've felt rushed and not wanted, but you know what, tough, i may not have the speed or time in game as those who wish to run the dungeon and miss almost 70 to 80% out and just get to the end, but you know what, that's life, everyone starts off the same and has to work there way up, if your supper quick and cna do it on your own, then form a group and do it, all of my 3 attempts atm were my first times, so had no idea on what i was doing, but yes it looked like everyone else had done it 100 times plus, so that's the issue, not how slow i am, but having no idea on 1st time entry, so for me, the que's don't work, as those who wish to do speed runs, should have imo another button to press so slower users like me, don't get put with them, so everyone gets a fair crack at the ones you wish to play and explore, then opt out of the super speed users and not slow them down
You have Into the Fray, which not only is a great buff, it increases everyone's run speed... Why are you slow?
Turn up, run the dungeon, dont take the HAMSTER by going afk, and very few people will even think about kicking you even if you are moving at the base speed or do no damage.
I would add communicate. I was in several RQs with one of my characters who is new and at the start I sent a Party note saying it was a lower level with lower level gear and that I was going to try and keep up but my speed was not great. In most of these I received a note back saying something like "Just run and don't worry about it". Even where I didn't get a reply they didn't kick me.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,155Arc User
I ran CT on my OP yesterday as a random. There was me, a DC (70) and a CW (14). After killing just about everything the DC and I were standing at the gate waiting for the CW. Then a vote kick is initiated by the DC for "Harassment". Nothing was in chat at all. There was nothing coming though voice. So no call, in my opinion, for "harassment". The only issue was that the DC was forced to wait for the CW to catch up. No sooner than the run was over that the DC player was on another character.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
There is no right answer to correct any of these problems because the random q system is inherently flawed to begin with and should never have gone live.
There is no right answer to correct any of these problems because the random q system is inherently flawed to begin with and should never have gone live.
How about the answer where they admit the whole random thing was a mistake and rethink many of the assumptions they made in electing to go this way? Then the next answer could be to fix the many things the fan base has suggested to make it better such as spliting the Epic Queue so more 70s could use the Epic Queues. Seems the right answer is the obvious one.
As far as faster AD generation the RQ works (normal and skirmish). Even if a player gets CoK and PoM (Caverns of Karrundux, Prophecy of Madness) the majority of the time (which they won't) and both which can take about 10 mins to complete (so about 20 mins total) it is still on par with two "average" EToS runs as far as completion time. The difference being 20 minutes (or less) spent running a RQ normal and skirmish will consistently grant a player more RAD (at least 25k) than two specific EToS runs. Even better if you get a CT and MotH (about less than 10 mins for 25k RAD).
Tiering epic RQ's would seemingly only make it easier for players to get RAD which would lead back to where things were before when players consciously chose the easiest content for the most benefit. It wouldn't necessarily help control the abusing players, it would actually help them generate more AD because they would be able to enter the "lower tier" and abuse even more of the player base.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
out of the 3 epic dungeons i've done, level 70 stats but only just 8k gear mind you, i'm always the slowest, i'm a GF, so hits hard, stays the course in action, but yes the slowest mover around, so tend to be at the back now in the newer places, having no way to keep up, so yes always feeling left out
You have Into the Fray, which not only is a great buff, it increases everyone's run speed... Why are you slow?
Ha, into the fray does not compensate for the movement mechanics of other classes. About the only toons you will even have around you once the others take off are OPs.
The way to fix this is just change both the GF and OP encounter powers so that they don't have to target to use Bull Charge or Relentless Avenger to move ahead. Being that its burning an EP, it would keep it from being abused.
out of the 3 epic dungeons i've done, level 70 stats but only just 8k gear mind you, i'm always the slowest, i'm a GF, so hits hard, stays the course in action, but yes the slowest mover around, so tend to be at the back now in the newer places, having no way to keep up, so yes always feeling left out, quite a few times i've felt rushed and not wanted, but you know what, tough, i may not have the speed or time in game as those who wish to run the dungeon and miss almost 70 to 80% out and just get to the end, but you know what, that's life, everyone starts off the same and has to work there way up, if your supper quick and cna do it on your own, then form a group and do it, all of my 3 attempts atm were my first times, so had no idea on what i was doing, but yes it looked like everyone else had done it 100 times plus, so that's the issue, not how slow i am, but having no idea on 1st time entry, so for me, the que's don't work, as those who wish to do speed runs, should have imo another button to press so slower users like me, don't get put with them, so everyone gets a fair crack at the ones you wish to play and explore, then opt out of the super speed users and not slow them down
You have Into the Fray, which not only is a great buff, it increases everyone's run speed... Why are you slow?
A lot of players are now running with higher level dark enchantments in their utility slots that add movement speed on top of their character's inate movement abilities... actually I've noticed this quite a lot lately.
A lot of players are now running with higher level dark enchantments in their utility slots that add movement speed on top of their character's inate movement abilities... actually I've noticed this quite a lot lately.
This is happening across the board, not just with GF or OPs. Aka, the rest are still leaving the slow pokes in the dust.
One of my GFs is a dwarf and the other is a DB, both have slower movement speed than other races
Just a couple rank 7-8 Darks in utility slots can go a long way, and if the dungeoning loadout has different armor pieces than the solo DPS loadout (which it absolutely should) more low level Darks would offer even better speed in dungeons
Getting RP is important, but dungeons is not where you get it, especially not Random leveling dungeons
Having more speed is especially important for a tank, as starting fights is the primary job of their class (whining that team mates aren't waiting for them is not)
The way to fix this is just change both the GF and OP encounter powers so that they don't have to target to use Bull Charge or Relentless Avenger to move ahead. Being that its burning an EP, it would keep it from being abused.
That change would lead to misses when you are actually trying to use the skill for its intended use, and with the ease of bumping your movement speed, would be a waste of time to implement
I posted because blood said he was new to Epic Dungeons and I felt he could benefit from exploring ways to speed up, and the way his post was worded made me think he wasn't running ITF at all... I mean a lot could be said about GFs, but "the slowest mover around" isn't the first thing that pops into mind... If anything, that title belongs on OPs
Increasing run speed is so easy and with the way this game is evolving its almost something you have to do
Complaining about others being faster seems pointless... What is the suggestion? Make everyone run the same speed? If others are faster and that bothers you, Speed UP! Super Simple
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,155Arc User
I use Darks. Most right now are between r7-9. I also have a mount with Gladiator's Guile. I also tend to have Steel Grace slotted when running solo. My GF tends to run at ludicrous speed.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
What concerns me about the focus on speed is I am starting to see lower level folks who feel the need to run ahead then die because they are not ready for the combat they will face. I ran an RQ a few days ago and watched this poor GF die more then seven times then leave the dungeon. Had they just stuck with us they would have finished the dungeon much faster in the end. Speeding ahead might be fine if you can handle the content on your own, I just am concerned that speed not become the only focus.
A lot of players are now running with higher level dark enchantments in their utility slots that add movement speed on top of their character's inate movement abilities... actually I've noticed this quite a lot lately.
It is more likely to be the mount insignia boost Gladiators Guile that is giving them the massive boost then add in the +2k movement mount power for extra speed.
I hadn't considered the mount or other boosts but yeah that too... but I've personally witnessed the higher level dark enchantments on some party members during dungeons and skirmishes.
What concerns me about the focus on speed is I am starting to see lower level folks who feel the need to run ahead then die because they are not ready for the combat they will face. I ran an RQ a few days ago and watched this poor GF die more then seven times then leave the dungeon. Had they just stuck with us they would have finished the dungeon much faster in the end. Speeding ahead might be fine if you can handle the content on your own, I just am concerned that speed not become the only focus.
New players learn from example, if they see other players run ahead, ignore drops and attempt to run by mobs - that is what they are going to try to do... at least until they learn better.
Then you have some unfortunate new or lower level players who have been chastized or kicked out of dungeons if they don't or can't keep up (again referencing the title of this thread).
I think one of the actual purposes for the random queues was for lower level, less experienced players to learn from higher level, more experience players... well that seems to be what's happening, either by following the example of other people in their party or trying to not get kicked.
I can't count the number of times speedsters took off leaving me behind then jumped over something taking a shortcut or avoided mobs then berated (yes "berate" - not in a nice way) me because I didn't do the same...
How is a slower player supposed to learn to do those things when a faster player is so far ahead you can't even see them when they do something like that?
Ultimately, the only way that this works out in a way that Cryptic gets what it wanted out of RQs is by the devs taking complete control of how you all make money by running dungeons
To be clear, the random dungeon system, I believe, was implemented for just the reason that they said: to help pug ques pop faster
I guess it was hoped that all these forcasted problems would be sorted out by us, but clearly that’s not the case, at least yet
This thread has done a really good job of documenting just how many different motivations are coming into conflict in a random dungeon que
There is really only one solution to this problem that will make everyone happy, including those that want everyone to go faster and those that want everyone to go slower and those that want people to contribute more and those that want to contribute less and still win
When players signed up for a random que, they need to be assigned an NPC, like the cleric in that Gauntlegrym quest that projects the aoe Protection spell that keeps you from dying as long as you don’t step out of it, metering your speed as you progress in a linear fashion to accomplish the tasks and kill the mobs that she requires
This way, if you don’t do what the game wants, you die
Obviously, at least for random ques, dying because you strayed away from the plan would mean you got kicked and wouldn’t receive any reward, though you could re-que to try again
Using this type of method would allow for the elimination of vote kicking and quitter penalties
Let’s call it the perfect solution
If you want RAD in the easiest form, just stand in line and do your Dance Dance Revolution moves for a few minutes until the thing pops and there you go
Everyone gets what they want, and no one’s feelings are hurt because of what some other player wanted to do
When the object becomes to remove or control choices, eventually the game becomes the enemy, so let’s just all accept that and move on
When players signed up for a random que, they need to be assigned an NPC, like the cleric in that Gauntlegrym quest that projects the aoe Protection spell that keeps you from dying as long as you don’t step out of it, metering your speed as you progress in a linear fashion to accomplish the tasks and kill the mobs that she requires
This way, if you don’t do what the game wants, you die
Obviously, at least for random ques, dying because you strayed away from the plan would mean you got kicked and wouldn’t receive any reward, though you could re-que to try again
Too many issues with this. How about if you die just fighting and spawn back at the last campfire? And not all dungeons are perfectly linear. And nothing fixes the bot issue that just attaches to another toon like a Lamprey.
The biggest problems are social etiquette decorum, or lack there of.
Comments
Personally, for the most part unfamiliar players are treated by how they present themselves/their actions.
A LLP may or may not be a new player and may or may not have many "friends" though being on the outside looking in how can either be confirmed (other than class sigils, enchantments, account bound equipment)? With that being stated the more "passes" legitimate players get consequently the more passes abusing players get as well.
Yes things happen and sometimes players have to go AFK or legitimately disconnect though this is not always the case, some players abuse it by going "AFK" or "disconnecting" just to cheese rewards. First and foremost when a player queues for content they are committing themselves and others to it therefore they should have every intention of performing to the best of their ability and having at least 10-15 minutes for RQ (normal dungeon/skirmishes) though it is nearly impossible to determine who is legitimate and who is abusing.
Personally whenever a player "disconnects" at the start of the queue and or is "AFK" for a considerable amount of time/frequently "AFK" they are often reported for "AFK Farming Random Queue". Customer service has FAR more investigative options than players do, the reports are reasonable due to the action(s) of the player(s), players make the reports, CS makes the judgment call. Back when players could solo queue and get bonus RAD abusive players were seemingly "less" of an issue (depends) though with bonus RAD being removed from private queues and sometimes not having others to pre-group with legitimate players are often enough thrown in with the abusing bunch.
Queues DO pop much faster than before by using the RQ system (at least for normal dungeons and skirmishes) and getting to 36k RAD is arguably faster with normal dungeon/skirmishes and a few salvage pieces to cap, a downside being that you can be grouped with an abusing and or a player that does not match your goal (speed running, exploration).
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
That is why I do not go into some of the Epic Dugeons even though I have the minimum to get in. I realize I am not ready for what I have heard is waiting for me. LOL
Groups already have to wait for the slowest member, now additional time is being suggested on top of that? No way. The "problem", simply put revolves around not having consideration for other group members (HLP's and LLP's). You can't have it "both" ways. Granting LLP's immunity from vote-to-kicks will help shield abusing players from being actioned against. That's pretty much exactly what they did, that or the moonstone mask VIP teleport or a teleport scroll, ALL of which should prompt the user that proceeding with the action will remove them from the group and grant them the leaver penalty (including exiting via the entrance before the run is completed). It works similar to players intentionally "disconnecting" being that they can re-enter the instance at a later time and possibly collect rewards without contributing or contributing very little. There's really no legitimate reason(s) for a player to be able to enter a RQ then exit via the entrance/teleport AND remain in the group. When a player joins a RQ they should already be prepared (inventory space, seals aren't capped, etc.). Players will continue to use the entrance/teleports to abuse the RQ system if they are allowed to continue to use them AND remain in the group.
To add would like to see something along the lines of where players entering a RQ skirmish that don't enter the start circle within a "few" moments get removed from the group, this goes along with the previous statement of players entering a queue should be ready. Often enough players have to wait just to start the content because someone is sitting AFK at the entry point.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
If you were reading the Zone chat tonight in one instance there were a couple of level 20 something people complaining because they were kicked out of a the Cragmire Crypts and Cloak Tower dungeon for "being too slow"... I wasn't a part of that conversation but I kind of suspect the people who were complaing weren't too slow, instead the other characters were much faster and upset because the lower level players didn't or couldn't keep up.
At least that's what it seemed like to me when they mentioned they had to fight a bunch of bad guys and before they could even get to the end they got "kicked out".
Have personally gotten kicked from a group in CT. After clearing the mobs from the beginning to the end and activating the "gather your party" circle, soon after got the loading screen, the other 2 in the group were LLP's. That incident wasn't fair whatsoever though goes to show that LLP's can be the one's exhibiting negative behavior as well. That is part of the other side of the coin that has previously been mentioned.
LLP's seeking an "at level experience" will more than likely not get it via RQ if they do not group first. There's essentially no way a lvl 14 can get the "full" experience with HLP's in the group, even if the HLP's stick close to the LLP they would still be 1 shotting the majority of the mobs, what kind of experience is that?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I merely stated if anyone else was in my instance and watching Zone chat exchanges, they might have seen that exchange also.
So who gets to define “good players”?
Two faster players voting against a slower player - two slower player voting against a faster player - a two player who choose to ignore drops against another player chooses to collect them?
Should other players be in a position to judge if a party member is playing with sufficient skill or speed to be allowed to remain in the party even if that other player is actively participating and traversing the dungeon in a manner they choose?
The theme here is obvious and it is clearly stated in the title of this thread… A person was kicked out of the Cloak Tower by two other party members because those other party members didn’t believe that person was playing in a manner sufficient to their expectations.
What is also obvious is the mechanics of every dungeon… You start at point “A” you traverse to point “B”, eliminating or avoiding mobs along the way and you collect your reward.
There is no time limit, there is no requirement that a player ignore drops or that they should pick them up, there is not a prerequisite for the amount of time required to complete any dungeon and there is nothing that states a player shouldn’t be allowed to explore the environment along the way if they choose to do so.
As long as a player is present, as long as a player is progressing, as long as they are actually doing something within that dungeon they should be allowed to stay, period.
The only valid reason for kicking someone out of a dungeon in my opinion, is if a player is disconnected for a period of time or if a player is not progressing or participating in any way… not that they aren’t progressing or participating in a manner that is to the satisfaction of other members.
The "at level experience" and the difficulty of achieving it outside of a preformed at level group was brought up because it was an argument presented. Even before RQ's the likely hood of queuing for specific content (CT) and getting all level 12-16's was very low, if possible at all.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Tiering epic RQ's would seemingly only make it easier for players to get RAD which would lead back to where things were before when players consciously chose the easiest content for the most benefit. It wouldn't necessarily help control the abusing players, it would actually help them generate more AD because they would be able to enter the "lower tier" and abuse even more of the player base.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The way to fix this is just change both the GF and OP encounter powers so that they don't have to target to use Bull Charge or Relentless Avenger to move ahead. Being that its burning an EP, it would keep it from being abused.
Just a couple rank 7-8 Darks in utility slots can go a long way, and if the dungeoning loadout has different armor pieces than the solo DPS loadout (which it absolutely should) more low level Darks would offer even better speed in dungeons
Getting RP is important, but dungeons is not where you get it, especially not Random leveling dungeons
Having more speed is especially important for a tank, as starting fights is the primary job of their class (whining that team mates aren't waiting for them is not) That change would lead to misses when you are actually trying to use the skill for its intended use, and with the ease of bumping your movement speed, would be a waste of time to implement
I posted because blood said he was new to Epic Dungeons and I felt he could benefit from exploring ways to speed up, and the way his post was worded made me think he wasn't running ITF at all... I mean a lot could be said about GFs, but "the slowest mover around" isn't the first thing that pops into mind... If anything, that title belongs on OPs
Increasing run speed is so easy and with the way this game is evolving its almost something you have to do
Complaining about others being faster seems pointless... What is the suggestion? Make everyone run the same speed? If others are faster and that bothers you, Speed UP! Super Simple
Then you have some unfortunate new or lower level players who have been chastized or kicked out of dungeons if they don't or can't keep up (again referencing the title of this thread).
I think one of the actual purposes for the random queues was for lower level, less experienced players to learn from higher level, more experience players... well that seems to be what's happening, either by following the example of other people in their party or trying to not get kicked.
I can't count the number of times speedsters took off leaving me behind then jumped over something taking a shortcut or avoided mobs then berated (yes "berate" - not in a nice way) me because I didn't do the same...
How is a slower player supposed to learn to do those things when a faster player is so far ahead you can't even see them when they do something like that?
To be clear, the random dungeon system, I believe, was implemented for just the reason that they said: to help pug ques pop faster
I guess it was hoped that all these forcasted problems would be sorted out by us, but clearly that’s not the case, at least yet
This thread has done a really good job of documenting just how many different motivations are coming into conflict in a random dungeon que
There is really only one solution to this problem that will make everyone happy, including those that want everyone to go faster and those that want everyone to go slower and those that want people to contribute more and those that want to contribute less and still win
When players signed up for a random que, they need to be assigned an NPC, like the cleric in that Gauntlegrym quest that projects the aoe Protection spell that keeps you from dying as long as you don’t step out of it, metering your speed as you progress in a linear fashion to accomplish the tasks and kill the mobs that she requires
This way, if you don’t do what the game wants, you die
Obviously, at least for random ques, dying because you strayed away from the plan would mean you got kicked and wouldn’t receive any reward, though you could re-que to try again
Using this type of method would allow for the elimination of vote kicking and quitter penalties
Let’s call it the perfect solution
If you want RAD in the easiest form, just stand in line and do your Dance Dance Revolution moves for a few minutes until the thing pops and there you go
Everyone gets what they want, and no one’s feelings are hurt because of what some other player wanted to do
When the object becomes to remove or control choices, eventually the game becomes the enemy, so let’s just all accept that and move on
The biggest problems are social etiquette decorum, or lack there of.