Crazy thought here: But why not unlock the dungeons from the previous mods? No need to fill any sort of campaign requirement, it is simply accessible to all characters with the prerequisite item level.
Not only would this work in tandem with the patronage tokens(because people would still want to get the boons for their alt's), but also allow for new players to grind for the boons on their own time, and not feel overwhelmed.
(Random queue's) It would also solve the issue of players not having every dungeon unlocked, due to the fact that all the mod's can take months for a part-time player to finish.
Personally, I have multiple friends who have played neverwinter, and after taking a break due to life issues, have come back only to feel overwhelmed with the amount of time it would take to catch up. They ultimately decided to choose other games.
However, if they had access to the dungeons I do, I truly feel they would have continued playing the game.
It is time to stop walling off new players, returning players, and the potential players veterans convince to play the game. Giving access to the majority of dungeons for players, regardless of how far they are in the campaign, would entice an entirely new generation.
The problem with bringing in a new player base is simple. Each person convinced to join hits the same wall and say the same thing, 'So I can't play that dungeon with you?' It's about the content! You let players enjoy the content with their friends, people will stay.
So I suggest, whenever a new Mod is launched, the dungeon in the former Mod is unlocked for every player, as long as they meet the IL and Level requirements. Let us play with our friends, and let us grind the boons with the time we have.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited September 2017
I have said it before, and I will repeat it:
The random queues are a design failure - they will not reach the stated goals. Instead they will just increase player frustration.
The reason is of course that the random queues are basically an attempt to fix the symptoms, but not the underlying cause of the problems.
I fear that in a few years when someone writes the history of NWO, this will seen as one of the factors that contributed to its eventual decline and closure.
This is sad, because it would have taken so little to do this properly - a different implementation of random queues could have solved the problems - improved "queue pop time" and encouraged people to run more varied content, without increasing the amount of bonus AD given out.
Instead we got this....
It's probably too late to do anything about this and unfortunately past history has shown that correcting bad design rarely happens. (Case in point - the stronghold marauder failure).
My single largest complaint with this implementation is that it leaves new 70 tools in the dust AD wise until they are 11k and have completed RD and unlocked FBI, which is a minimum of a month, but probably longer now that their AD gain is going to take more time to grind at the expense of daily quests.
Normal dungeons and skirmishes have their own RQ's and daily bonus. Once a character is around level 54 the normal dungeon RQ should be available and once the appropriate campaigns are unlocked/progressed the skirmish RQ will be available as well. For the most part many players will just stick with those two RQ's for bonus RAD faster, just without being able to select which queues and also continuing to skip the harder content, again, which is what a number of players were doing anyway. If nothing else new level 70 characters will have normal dungeon RQ available and can be getting bonus AD from it (which they should be as soon as it becomes available around level 54).
Not to mention all the various ways to gain AD that players often overlook/ignore. The players that have resorted to running easy content/RAD mules for AD have a choice on their hands since RAD mules will produce less RAD with the RQ system which makes sense.
Part of the problem is/was players running RAD mules, consciously not progressing campaigns and abusing easy content for bonus RAD. With the RQ system players can still run the easy content, they just won't be able to manually select which content AND get bonus RAD upon completion meaning that the players who queue for less popular content have better chances of getting a group which they were often left in queue for longer periods of time because a large number of players ran/run no more than about 5 different queues. Players that don't want to progress their additional characters can just RQ normal dungeons/skirmishes for the most part.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
In regard to shorter dungeons/skirmishes, in general it takes at least 2 minutes for the "vote to kick" option to become available, even after 2 minutes & there is 1 or more sitting at the campfire/not participating often the vote to kick can't be initiated seemingly if there is loot on the ground, if it is initiated players often enough "shield" each other (intentionally or unintentionally) by either not voting "no" or ignoring the vote meaning bots/AFK farmers often enough are pretty much safe & can reap the rewards from the effort of others and or halt/prolong completion of content seemingly w/no penalty.
Will the 5 minute timer reset if a player "disconnects" and reconnects? If so what will prevent abusers from "disconnecting" and reconnecting before the run is finished essentially skipping putting in effort yet still getting the rewards?
What about players that intentionally try to get vote kicked so they can circumvent the leaver penalty?
What can be done about the potential abuse of the 5 minute reconnect window and or players wanting to get vote kicked to circumvent the leaver penalty?
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
How big a loss does Cryptic have to suffer before we can say we collectively told you so?
Random queue is a hot mess that will make the queueing environment toxic and drive away players. I will only be using it with pre-mades that I know can handle the content that could potentially be thrown at us with the RNG. That's if I use it at all. This is a change from my current behavior where I randomly queue as a tank when I have some spare time as I generally know that I can carry randoms through the dungeons I queue for. With random queue, I have no way of predicting just how much time will be required to complete the run.
I'm fairly certain the eventual AD grind trend will turn to public queue pre-mades/private queue salvage runs once people get sick of being dropped into dungeons with pugs who either can't complete the content/troll to be vote kicked/filled with afk leechers/or are tired or running leveling dungeons over and over. That will leave new players in the toxic stew left behind once the pool of competent players self-selects out of the system.
Sadly, this could all be avoided by having the Random Queue option supplement rather than replace the current system.
I've got a DC and GF both around the 9k mark. They are third tier characters, who I made to run guild and alliance dungeons as people always need tank and healer. When I'm of a mind I run them through the odd dungeon when I just fancy something different to my three DPS main characters. I actually employ a random system to do this... I queue for all the dungeons that a) I'm comfortable that, as a support character, they can handle, b) the dungeons I have cleric quests for, and c) that I actually enjoy.
Once I've used any of these tertiary charäcters to pummel the cloak tower into submission for my daily "bonus" I'm soon going to have to consider whether there is any point in running an epic. I can't queue random for the AD bonus, So the time my support character would normally spend pugging sub 11k epics will be spent pugging basics. I'm only saying this because one of the stated goals is to encourage people to play these roles.
I guess my point is... if anyone in the design team thinks that people like me are going to suddenly drop our favourite mains to grind support toons through SKT and CA to gain access to Random Queues so that we can help make unpopular material fire as often as the popular, (another rather weird stated goal...) I'll have a pint of whatever they're drinking and wake me up in a fortnight...
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
edited September 2017
Hmm, I am still not sure what to think about it. My personal play style includes a random queue "light" anyway. I select MC, KR, eSoT, VT, eLoL, eToS and sometimes CN all at once, enter the queue and see where it brings me (of course, after two finished skirmishes I leave out KR and eSoT for example). And I can only say it works pretty well and I have fun.
The planned random queue goes one step further and I will see how I like it, because after all there is a reason why I omit dungeons in my random queue "light" like eGWD or FBI: time.
I hate to say it but there is a LOT of content in this game that I avoid because I hate it. Random queues essentially forces me to do some of that content.
Whoever came up with this idea needs a long time out. Long enough that the rest of the design team can forget they are even there. Otherwise, kiss the rest of the game population goodbye.
In essence it pretty much boils down to this, if the "Random queues" are added as a bonus, (most) players will be happy, and very likely use it from time to time.
If the "Randome queue" system replaces the existing one, players will be annoyed (= less enchanted keys sold) and some players will most likely never use the "random queue" at all and quit, partly due to this, and partly due to having to buy their Bonding stone stats back.
Adding the "random queue" to the existing system is only an improvement, which is why the obvious choice (for anyone interested in keeping customers happy and paying) would be that option...
Also, bot/script users always adapt to the current situation, so this might hurt them short term, but in a month or two, they have tuned them right back to where they were...
My single largest complaint with this implementation is that it leaves new 70 tools in the dust AD wise until they are 11k and have completed RD and unlocked FBI, which is a minimum of a month, but probably longer now that their AD gain is going to take more time to grind at the expense of daily quests.
Normal dungeons and skirmishes have their own RQ's and daily bonus. Once a character is around level 54 the normal dungeon RQ should be available and once the appropriate campaigns are unlocked/progressed the skirmish RQ will be available as well. For the most part many players will just stick with those two RQ's for bonus RAD faster, just without being able to select which queues and also continuing to skip the harder content, again, which is what a number of players were doing anyway. If nothing else new level 70 characters will have normal dungeon RQ available and can be getting bonus AD from it (which they should be as soon as it becomes available around level 54).
Well, thanks for your canned response that's more or less identical to things the devs have posted in this thread a dozen times. I'm not really sure how you think your response is related to my post or why you think i'm unaware of it.
I'm totally aware of the normal dungeon RQ, and I absolutely despise that level 70 characters are allowed to run it.
With the current level-scaling system, it is absolutely not acceptable to encourage level 70 players to run low level dungeons for rAD. The low level dungeon Random Queue for level 70 characters should not be a thing .
It is too easy to count as content, and our presence there destroys any enjoyment a low level toon might be able to derive from it as well. If a level 12 guildie wants help speedrunning through Cloak Tower, we can private queue for it. To be clear here, I'm totally happy to run low level dungeons because a low level person wants my help. I am not happy to run low level dungeons, ruining them for actual low level people who do not want my help, because it's the optimal thing for me to do for my rAD gain on a 14k toon.
If they improved the level-scaling system, it would be fine. It should be shelved until a level-scaling rework.
Even beyond despising the level 70 low level dungeon RQ, its existence doesn't excuse the month+ grind for new level 70s before they can RQ for malabog's effing castle, a dungeon which, at the 11k requirement for RQ, is easily soloable.
FBI and MC do not belong in the same queue
Post edited by nirafelos on
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited September 2017
It's also entirely incorrect that RQ for normal dungeons would only be available at level 54, as has been stated repeatedly. It's available as soon as character can access Cloak Tower, though their personal randomizer only has one option to pick from.
I'm not keen on shunting level 70s into the same queue as lowbies for a variety of reasons I've discussed plenty, BUT I don't feel 100% barring level 70s from levelling dungeons is right either. This doesn't account for missed achievements/Deeds, or wanting to explore, or for the all-important factor of player agency period. I feel private queuing would be acceptable for access to content you've outlevelled though.
I also think that people are overlooking that the ratio of under-60 to over-60 players wanting to run dungeons at this time is probably terrible, and there genuinely are problems with levelling players getting their queues to pop. Levelling skirmishes have been practically inaccessible for years, because good f'n luck finding four other people wanting to run one at the same time you are (which private queuing has now helped with).
But this highlights another problem with levelling dungeons, as when they were reduced to a 3-player party with no role enforcement and the level restrictions were lifted, those dungeons might have been put into a state of being incompleteable by most full lowbie parties. Because they actually weren't easy for an at-level party of five back in the day. I have guildies who recently levelled new characters in order to get a friend into the game, and they did all the dungeons as a group, but this was with two very experienced and competent players as well as the one new guy, so I don't believe the experience is representative.
Edit: The few times I've joined groups for mid-level dungeons like normal GWD, PK, Icespire (for Deed completion on alts), the group has often been already in progress and in some way stuck.
I don't feel 100% barring level 70s from levelling dungeons is right either. This doesn't account for missed achievements/Deeds, or wanting to explore, or for the all-important factor of player agency period. I feel private queuing would be acceptable for access to content you've outlevelled though.
I agree with this. I think this logic needs to be extended to Skirmishes, too. I had to tell an alliance-member yesterday that was looking for a specific skirmish that they'd outleveled it and there was no way for them to access it and get the title they wanted from it.
Honestly the best solution to my/our grievances about this is a better level scaling system.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,513Arc User
edited September 2017
I have to admit I did not do many of these level dungeons and I did not even remember I did not do it. Now, I can remember my experience of these dungeons was not good. I did not do it because as Becky said: (1) it took forever in the queue, (2) I ended up in an empty dungeon, (3) a bugged dungeon.
Basically, my 2nd to 5th toon did not do any level dungeon. I guess I did not have to because doing normal stuff can already overlevel too much off the normal quest line.
Anyway, in the past weekend, just for the heck of it, I wanted to check how long it took any of my toons to complete them. Hence, I used a solo queue and 2 dungeons each for my 5 level 70 toons. That was a good site seeing tour and I completed many "quests".
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"If if that was the case, if it was something then I probably was chasing. I would have never gotten it. That was the whole point, if you chase something, then sometimes you never get it. uh huh if you put forth to work and all the attitude, next you know it's bestowed upon you." -- Michael Jordan
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I don't feel 100% barring level 70s from levelling dungeons is right either. This doesn't account for missed achievements/Deeds, or wanting to explore, or for the all-important factor of player agency period. I feel private queuing would be acceptable for access to content you've outlevelled though.
I agree with this. I think this logic needs to be extended to Skirmishes, too. I had to tell an alliance-member yesterday that was looking for a specific skirmish that they'd outleveled it and there was no way for them to access it and get the title they wanted from it.
Honestly the best solution to my/our grievances about this is a better level scaling system.
If they haven't outlevelled yet, they can private queue for it and solo, or at least go with an undersized party if they can find any help at all.
I don't feel 100% barring level 70s from levelling dungeons is right either. This doesn't account for missed achievements/Deeds, or wanting to explore, or for the all-important factor of player agency period. I feel private queuing would be acceptable for access to content you've outlevelled though.
I agree with this. I think this logic needs to be extended to Skirmishes, too. I had to tell an alliance-member yesterday that was looking for a specific skirmish that they'd outleveled it and there was no way for them to access it and get the title they wanted from it.
Honestly the best solution to my/our grievances about this is a better level scaling system.
If they haven't outlevelled yet, they can private queue for it and solo, or at least go with an undersized party if they can find any help at all.
It was someone who had just hit level 70 looking for how to get into Storm Front, which, thankfully, does have a CTA, so they'll be able to get in there eventually.
@trinity706 - What is the obsession with making low level dungeon queues pop faster? Or any queue for that matter. You don't actually have to do any of them to progress your character. Three years ago, I didn't do any dungeons while leveling my very first character. Was just learning how to play, so I didn't want to embarass myself. However, with the second character I leveled right after, I did all of them except for Dread Vault when they were five-man. By joining a party that was forming or forming my own party. In the oldest mmorpgs, or in their oldest states before expansions, you actually had to go to the entrance of a dungeon and queues did not exist. Why have these modern day conveniences in games become so essential to people? Is it wrong to ask people to communicate and cooperate in Massively Multi-Player Online Role-Playing Game?
Maybe if the rewards were better for lower level skirmishes, more people would do them? They did reduce the AD you get from lower level skirmishes to a pittance compared to level 70 skirmishes. That may be one reason.
And yes, you don't need to completely bar higher levels from leveling dungeons and skirmishes. They could be allowed to private queue for them without allowing them to public queue. You could go to the entrance to do any dungeon in the game when level 60 was max. Without having to queue at all. CTA does allow for people to do most lower level skirmishes, but it is more challenging to do those skirmishes when you're at the proper level for them.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason. But most leveling content can be soloed by any player, so they would rarely feel a need. People who are better at games don't need help for anything, even on their first character (except for dungeons, skirmishes, and pvp, of course). If people don't need to communicate with each other in an online game, they very often won't. This reality is compounded by the use of an International Server with language barriers.
Another thing. Mobs and bosses with strengths and weaknesses would make combat far more interesting than simply adding stats and hp in order to increase difficulty. I was able to understand mobs with strengths and weaknesses when I played Final Fantasy II (IV in Japan) on Super Nintendo when I was fourteen years-old.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
In the oldest mmorpgs, or in their oldest states before expansions, you actually had to go to the entrance of a dungeon and queues did not exist.
NW dungeons originally HAD doors, which enabled entering alone/with undersized group/after outlevelled, but the devs removed them all and made the queue system the only way to enter.
Which I see you bring up later anyway. Private queueing has mostly fixed this particular created issue.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason.
They literally can't in NW. All new accounts are barred from using chat until they have completed a number of quest chains including Blackdagger. Because it's far more important they prove they're not goldsellers than have a good newbie experience.
Oh, and I'm not going to do SKT or RD with alts. Probably not ever. I haven't even finished them yet with my main character, a 13+k GF. No way I'm ever going to buy a campaign completion token.
In the oldest mmorpgs, or in their oldest states before expansions, you actually had to go to the entrance of a dungeon and queues did not exist.
NW dungeons originally HAD doors, which enabled entering alone/with undersized group/after outlevelled, but the devs removed them all and made the queue system the only way to enter.
Which I see you bring up later anyway. Private queueing has mostly fixed this particular created issue.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason.
They literally can't in NW. All new accounts are barred from using chat until they have completed a number of quest chains including Blackdagger. Because it's far more important they prove they're not goldsellers than have a good newbie experience.
You didn't earn AD from the dungeon if you entered alone or with an undersized group after outleveling it, did you? I remember helping a guildmate with Tomb of the Spider in a group of four at level 60, and I don't remember earning AD from it. If higher levels couldn't earn AD from leveling dungeons, why was it an issue?
Yes, I don't understand why muting new players was the best solution they could think of to the problem of gold spammers.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,513Arc User
In the oldest mmorpgs, or in their oldest states before expansions, you actually had to go to the entrance of a dungeon and queues did not exist.
NW dungeons originally HAD doors, which enabled entering alone/with undersized group/after outlevelled, but the devs removed them all and made the queue system the only way to enter.
Which I see you bring up later anyway. Private queueing has mostly fixed this particular created issue.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason.
They literally can't in NW. All new accounts are barred from using chat until they have completed a number of quest chains including Blackdagger. Because it's far more important they prove they're not goldsellers than have a good newbie experience.
You didn't earn AD from the dungeon if you entered alone or with an undersized group after outleveling it, did you? I remember helping a guildmate with Tomb of the Spider in a group of four at level 60, and I don't remember earning AD from it. If higher levels couldn't earn AD from leveling dungeons, why was it an issue?
Yes, I don't understand why muting new players was the best solution they could think of to the problem of gold spammers.
I don't know if you are talking about now or about long time ago. The undersized group (such as 3 players to enter a 5 players dungeon) is new. Hence, I assume you are talking about now. You get AD today doing what you said.
My 5 level 70 characters entered level dungeon alone and earned 8K AD in each trip in the last weekend.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"If if that was the case, if it was something then I probably was chasing. I would have never gotten it. That was the whole point, if you chase something, then sometimes you never get it. uh huh if you put forth to work and all the attitude, next you know it's bestowed upon you." -- Michael Jordan
In the oldest mmorpgs, or in their oldest states before expansions, you actually had to go to the entrance of a dungeon and queues did not exist.
NW dungeons originally HAD doors, which enabled entering alone/with undersized group/after outlevelled, but the devs removed them all and made the queue system the only way to enter.
Which I see you bring up later anyway. Private queueing has mostly fixed this particular created issue.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason.
They literally can't in NW. All new accounts are barred from using chat until they have completed a number of quest chains including Blackdagger. Because it's far more important they prove they're not goldsellers than have a good newbie experience.
You didn't earn AD from the dungeon if you entered alone or with an undersized group after outleveling it, did you? I remember helping a guildmate with Tomb of the Spider in a group of four at level 60, and I don't remember earning AD from it. If higher levels couldn't earn AD from leveling dungeons, why was it an issue?
Yes, I don't understand why muting new players was the best solution they could think of to the problem of gold spammers.
I don't know if you are talking about now or about long time ago. The undersized group (such as 3 players to enter a 5 players dungeon) is new. Hence, I assume you are talking about now. You get AD today doing what you said.
My 5 level 70 characters entered level dungeon alone and earned 8K AD in each trip in the last weekend.
No, not now. You could go to the entrance to a dungeon pre-mod 6 and enter the dungeon solo or with any number of people up to a full party.
And, yes, I know you can currently private queue solo into a dungeon.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,513Arc User
In the oldest mmorpgs, or in their oldest states before expansions, you actually had to go to the entrance of a dungeon and queues did not exist.
NW dungeons originally HAD doors, which enabled entering alone/with undersized group/after outlevelled, but the devs removed them all and made the queue system the only way to enter.
Which I see you bring up later anyway. Private queueing has mostly fixed this particular created issue.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason.
They literally can't in NW. All new accounts are barred from using chat until they have completed a number of quest chains including Blackdagger. Because it's far more important they prove they're not goldsellers than have a good newbie experience.
You didn't earn AD from the dungeon if you entered alone or with an undersized group after outleveling it, did you? I remember helping a guildmate with Tomb of the Spider in a group of four at level 60, and I don't remember earning AD from it. If higher levels couldn't earn AD from leveling dungeons, why was it an issue?
Yes, I don't understand why muting new players was the best solution they could think of to the problem of gold spammers.
I don't know if you are talking about now or about long time ago. The undersized group (such as 3 players to enter a 5 players dungeon) is new. Hence, I assume you are talking about now. You get AD today doing what you said.
My 5 level 70 characters entered level dungeon alone and earned 8K AD in each trip in the last weekend.
No, not now. You could go to the entrance to a dungeon pre-mod 6 and enter the dungeon solo or with any number of people up to a full party.
And, yes, I know you can currently queue solo into a dungeon.
Well, you can't compare with long time ago and now. Long time ago, the dungeon gave you something else and you could get AD like nothing. You could just reach rough AD refinement limit by leadership. AD would not even be an incentive. Now, AD is an incentive.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"If if that was the case, if it was something then I probably was chasing. I would have never gotten it. That was the whole point, if you chase something, then sometimes you never get it. uh huh if you put forth to work and all the attitude, next you know it's bestowed upon you." -- Michael Jordan
Actually, I thought it was harder to get AD pre-mod 6 as a new player, or one that hadn't played much until mod 5. And everything cost way more. Even the campaigns drained your AD. If only I had started doing leadership when I first started. I was tired of doing professions from EQ2, and I didn't realize how easy professions are in NW until much later.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,513Arc User
Actually, I thought it was harder to get AD pre-mod 6 as a new player, or one that hadn't played much until mod 5. And everything cost way more. Even the campaigns drained your AD.
It did not matter because even if the dungeon gave you rough AD, you did not have room for the refinement limit after certain 'normal' leadership, invocation work for the toon. It was 24k limit. I remember my 'doing nothing' toon could reach that limit by invocation and leadership (and he did not have purple worker).
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"If if that was the case, if it was something then I probably was chasing. I would have never gotten it. That was the whole point, if you chase something, then sometimes you never get it. uh huh if you put forth to work and all the attitude, next you know it's bestowed upon you." -- Michael Jordan
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
You didn't earn AD from the dungeon if you entered alone or with an undersized group after outleveling it, did you? I remember helping a guildmate with Tomb of the Spider in a group of four at level 60, and I don't remember earning AD from it. If higher levels couldn't earn AD from leveling dungeons, why was it an issue?
Everything used to be tied to having a daily quest from Rhix, so you could obtain AD from entering an outlevelled dungeon exactly once, on the condition that you had the corresponding Rhix quest. This also worked for equivalent epic dungeons, so if you never did normal Spider at all but did it as a level 60 epic, Rhix would pay out one time. Then you wouldn't have the quest anymore and couldn't get it again because of your level.
You didn't earn AD from the dungeon if you entered alone or with an undersized group after outleveling it, did you? I remember helping a guildmate with Tomb of the Spider in a group of four at level 60, and I don't remember earning AD from it. If higher levels couldn't earn AD from leveling dungeons, why was it an issue?
Everything used to be tied to having a daily quest from Rhix, so you could obtain AD from entering an outlevelled dungeon exactly once, on the condition that you had the corresponding Rhix quest. This also worked for equivalent epic dungeons, so if you never did normal Spider at all but did it as a level 60 epic, Rhix would pay out one time. Then you wouldn't have the quest anymore and couldn't get it again because of your level.
Well, if you could only do it one time, that still doesn't seem like an issue. 3k AD didn't go very far back then.
Well, thanks for your canned response that's more or less identical to things the devs have posted in this thread a dozen times. I'm not really sure how you think your response is related to my post or why you think i'm unaware of it.
@nirafelos - The quote and response was actually for those that don't know/are unsure of being able to get bonus RAD/AD before reaching 11k ilvl, also seeing as it mentions gaining AD other ways which are often overlooked/ignored. Whether you responded directly or not didn't matter.
@beckylunatic - for a lvl 70 character, which should have all the normal dungeons open, would not be able to fully RQ normal dungeons with a character that doesn't.
@safespacecadet - there's no obsession from this end though have tested queuing for "unpopular" content and have noticed longer wait times to get a group compared to the "top 5". With that being stated players wanting to run "unpopular" content for whatever reason(s) have a harder time finding a group, RQ's are seem to be able to help with that. Also some players
As far as communication, players do as much or as little as they feel is necessary. Lot's of people play MMO's "solo" for the most part, they like to interact with the in-game world and communicate little if at all with others regardless of the hardships it may cause.
Lower and higher level characters can both form groups and queue content, if either chooses not to and come across the other in a queue and it impedes what they are trying to accomplish it was their choice to possibly put themselves in that position (lower level characters wanting to "explore" and higher level characters wanting to get it done fast). Both have reason to be in lower level content especially in regard to gaining bonus RAD so wanting to exclude higher level characters from lower level content is kind of selfish.
As far as players not wanting to complete/progress campaigns on additional/other characters that is their choice though if those players are interested in public queuing the lack of boons will affect the viability of those characters meaning they are consciously affecting the viability of the group in whatever manner(s).
@nirafelos, @safespacecadet - not all players feel like you, there are a number of players that don't care/would prefer getting through content faster via a higher level character(s). Just because the experience of some is "ruined" by the presence of high level characters doesn't mean exclude them from it. As previously stated if the goals of either (lower or higher level characters) is harmed by the presence/actions of the other they can form their own groups and queue to help prevent the other type from possibly becoming present.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
beckylunatic - for a lvl 70 character, which should have all the normal dungeons open, would not be able to fully RQ normal dungeons with a character that doesn't.
"Once a character is around level 54 the normal dungeon RQ should be available"
I was replying to this statement which is patently false. The normal dungeon RQ would be available as soon as CT can be queued for and would never be inaccessible at any point thereafter. Level 54 has diddly pipski to do with anything other than having every available normal dungeon available in the RQ as opposed to a lower-level subset of them.
Are you trying to build a case that people would need to group up to use the RQ feature for lowbie dungeons and therefore only 54-70 could queue together? Why would anyone even bother since you can also RQ alone? Not like you'd have to worry about not being able to complete this content, unlike epic dungeon/trial RQs.
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But why not unlock the dungeons from the previous mods? No need to fill any sort of campaign requirement, it is simply accessible to all characters with the prerequisite item level.
Not only would this work in tandem with the patronage tokens(because people would still want to get the boons for their alt's), but also allow for new players to grind for the boons on their own time, and not feel overwhelmed.
(Random queue's) It would also solve the issue of players not having every dungeon unlocked, due to the fact that all the mod's can take months for a part-time player to finish.
Personally, I have multiple friends who have played neverwinter, and after taking a break due to life issues, have come back only to feel overwhelmed with the amount of time it would take to catch up. They ultimately decided to choose other games.
However, if they had access to the dungeons I do, I truly feel they would have continued playing the game.
It is time to stop walling off new players, returning players, and the potential players veterans convince to play the game. Giving access to the majority of dungeons for players, regardless of how far they are in the campaign, would entice an entirely new generation.
The problem with bringing in a new player base is simple. Each person convinced to join hits the same wall and say the same thing, 'So I can't play that dungeon with you?' It's about the content! You let players enjoy the content with their friends, people will stay.
So I suggest, whenever a new Mod is launched, the dungeon in the former Mod is unlocked for every player, as long as they meet the IL and Level requirements. Let us play with our friends, and let us grind the boons with the time we have.
The random queues are a design failure - they will not reach the stated goals. Instead they will just increase player frustration.
The reason is of course that the random queues are basically an attempt to fix the symptoms, but not the underlying cause of the problems.
I fear that in a few years when someone writes the history of NWO, this will seen as one of the factors that contributed to its eventual decline and closure.
This is sad, because it would have taken so little to do this properly - a different implementation of random queues could have solved the problems - improved "queue pop time" and encouraged people to run more varied content, without increasing the amount of bonus AD given out.
Instead we got this....
It's probably too late to do anything about this and unfortunately past history has shown that correcting bad design rarely happens. (Case in point - the stronghold marauder failure).
Not to mention all the various ways to gain AD that players often overlook/ignore. The players that have resorted to running easy content/RAD mules for AD have a choice on their hands since RAD mules will produce less RAD with the RQ system which makes sense.
Part of the problem is/was players running RAD mules, consciously not progressing campaigns and abusing easy content for bonus RAD. With the RQ system players can still run the easy content, they just won't be able to manually select which content AND get bonus RAD upon completion meaning that the players who queue for less popular content have better chances of getting a group which they were often left in queue for longer periods of time because a large number of players ran/run no more than about 5 different queues. Players that don't want to progress their additional characters can just RQ normal dungeons/skirmishes for the most part.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Will the 5 minute timer reset if a player "disconnects" and reconnects? If so what will prevent abusers from "disconnecting" and reconnecting before the run is finished essentially skipping putting in effort yet still getting the rewards?
What about players that intentionally try to get vote kicked so they can circumvent the leaver penalty?
What can be done about the potential abuse of the 5 minute reconnect window and or players wanting to get vote kicked to circumvent the leaver penalty?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Random queue is a hot mess that will make the queueing environment toxic and drive away players. I will only be using it with pre-mades that I know can handle the content that could potentially be thrown at us with the RNG. That's if I use it at all. This is a change from my current behavior where I randomly queue as a tank when I have some spare time as I generally know that I can carry randoms through the dungeons I queue for. With random queue, I have no way of predicting just how much time will be required to complete the run.
I'm fairly certain the eventual AD grind trend will turn to public queue pre-mades/private queue salvage runs once people get sick of being dropped into dungeons with pugs who either can't complete the content/troll to be vote kicked/filled with afk leechers/or are tired or running leveling dungeons over and over. That will leave new players in the toxic stew left behind once the pool of competent players self-selects out of the system.
Sadly, this could all be avoided by having the Random Queue option supplement rather than replace the current system.
When I'm of a mind I run them through the odd dungeon when I just fancy something different to my three DPS main characters.
I actually employ a random system to do this... I queue for all the dungeons that a) I'm comfortable that, as a support character, they can handle, b) the dungeons I have cleric quests for, and c) that I actually enjoy.
Once I've used any of these tertiary charäcters to pummel the cloak tower into submission for my daily "bonus" I'm soon going to have to consider whether there is any point in running an epic. I can't queue random for the AD bonus, So the time my support character would normally spend pugging sub 11k epics will be spent pugging basics.
I'm only saying this because one of the stated goals is to encourage people to play these roles.
I guess my point is... if anyone in the design team thinks that people like me are going to suddenly drop our favourite mains to grind support toons through SKT and CA to gain access to Random Queues so that we can help make unpopular material fire as often as the popular, (another rather weird stated goal...) I'll have a pint of whatever they're drinking and wake me up in a fortnight...
The planned random queue goes one step further and I will see how I like it, because after all there is a reason why I omit dungeons in my random queue "light" like eGWD or FBI: time.
Whoever came up with this idea needs a long time out. Long enough that the rest of the design team can forget they are even there. Otherwise, kiss the rest of the game population goodbye.
If the "Randome queue" system replaces the existing one, players will be annoyed (= less enchanted keys sold) and some players will most likely never use the "random queue" at all and quit, partly due to this, and partly due to having to buy their Bonding stone stats back.
Adding the "random queue" to the existing system is only an improvement, which is why the obvious choice (for anyone interested in keeping customers happy and paying) would be that option...
Also, bot/script users always adapt to the current situation, so this might hurt them short term, but in a month or two, they have tuned them right back to where they were...
I'm totally aware of the normal dungeon RQ, and I absolutely despise that level 70 characters are allowed to run it.
With the current level-scaling system, it is absolutely not acceptable to encourage level 70 players to run low level dungeons for rAD. The low level dungeon Random Queue for level 70 characters should not be a thing .
It is too easy to count as content, and our presence there destroys any enjoyment a low level toon might be able to derive from it as well. If a level 12 guildie wants help speedrunning through Cloak Tower, we can private queue for it. To be clear here, I'm totally happy to run low level dungeons because a low level person wants my help. I am not happy to run low level dungeons, ruining them for actual low level people who do not want my help, because it's the optimal thing for me to do for my rAD gain on a 14k toon.
If they improved the level-scaling system, it would be fine. It should be shelved until a level-scaling rework.
Even beyond despising the level 70 low level dungeon RQ, its existence doesn't excuse the month+ grind for new level 70s before they can RQ for malabog's effing castle, a dungeon which, at the 11k requirement for RQ, is easily soloable.
FBI and MC do not belong in the same queue
I'm not keen on shunting level 70s into the same queue as lowbies for a variety of reasons I've discussed plenty, BUT I don't feel 100% barring level 70s from levelling dungeons is right either. This doesn't account for missed achievements/Deeds, or wanting to explore, or for the all-important factor of player agency period. I feel private queuing would be acceptable for access to content you've outlevelled though.
I also think that people are overlooking that the ratio of under-60 to over-60 players wanting to run dungeons at this time is probably terrible, and there genuinely are problems with levelling players getting their queues to pop. Levelling skirmishes have been practically inaccessible for years, because good f'n luck finding four other people wanting to run one at the same time you are (which private queuing has now helped with).
But this highlights another problem with levelling dungeons, as when they were reduced to a 3-player party with no role enforcement and the level restrictions were lifted, those dungeons might have been put into a state of being incompleteable by most full lowbie parties. Because they actually weren't easy for an at-level party of five back in the day. I have guildies who recently levelled new characters in order to get a friend into the game, and they did all the dungeons as a group, but this was with two very experienced and competent players as well as the one new guy, so I don't believe the experience is representative.
Edit: The few times I've joined groups for mid-level dungeons like normal GWD, PK, Icespire (for Deed completion on alts), the group has often been already in progress and in some way stuck.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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Honestly the best solution to my/our grievances about this is a better level scaling system.
Basically, my 2nd to 5th toon did not do any level dungeon. I guess I did not have to because doing normal stuff can already overlevel too much off the normal quest line.
Anyway, in the past weekend, just for the heck of it, I wanted to check how long it took any of my toons to complete them. Hence, I used a solo queue and 2 dungeons each for my 5 level 70 toons. That was a good site seeing tour and I completed many "quests".
Neverwinter Census 2017
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Maybe if the rewards were better for lower level skirmishes, more people would do them? They did reduce the AD you get from lower level skirmishes to a pittance compared to level 70 skirmishes. That may be one reason.
And yes, you don't need to completely bar higher levels from leveling dungeons and skirmishes. They could be allowed to private queue for them without allowing them to public queue. You could go to the entrance to do any dungeon in the game when level 60 was max. Without having to queue at all. CTA does allow for people to do most lower level skirmishes, but it is more challenging to do those skirmishes when you're at the proper level for them.
A lot of new players don't talk to each other unless they need to for some reason. But most leveling content can be soloed by any player, so they would rarely feel a need. People who are better at games don't need help for anything, even on their first character (except for dungeons, skirmishes, and pvp, of course). If people don't need to communicate with each other in an online game, they very often won't. This reality is compounded by the use of an International Server with language barriers.
Which I see you bring up later anyway. Private queueing has mostly fixed this particular created issue. They literally can't in NW. All new accounts are barred from using chat until they have completed a number of quest chains including Blackdagger. Because it's far more important they prove they're not goldsellers than have a good newbie experience.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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Yes, I don't understand why muting new players was the best solution they could think of to the problem of gold spammers.
My 5 level 70 characters entered level dungeon alone and earned 8K AD in each trip in the last weekend.
And, yes, I know you can currently private queue solo into a dungeon.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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@beckylunatic - for a lvl 70 character, which should have all the normal dungeons open, would not be able to fully RQ normal dungeons with a character that doesn't.
@safespacecadet - there's no obsession from this end though have tested queuing for "unpopular" content and have noticed longer wait times to get a group compared to the "top 5". With that being stated players wanting to run "unpopular" content for whatever reason(s) have a harder time finding a group, RQ's are seem to be able to help with that. Also some players
As far as communication, players do as much or as little as they feel is necessary. Lot's of people play MMO's "solo" for the most part, they like to interact with the in-game world and communicate little if at all with others regardless of the hardships it may cause.
Lower and higher level characters can both form groups and queue content, if either chooses not to and come across the other in a queue and it impedes what they are trying to accomplish it was their choice to possibly put themselves in that position (lower level characters wanting to "explore" and higher level characters wanting to get it done fast). Both have reason to be in lower level content especially in regard to gaining bonus RAD so wanting to exclude higher level characters from lower level content is kind of selfish.
As far as players not wanting to complete/progress campaigns on additional/other characters that is their choice though if those players are interested in public queuing the lack of boons will affect the viability of those characters meaning they are consciously affecting the viability of the group in whatever manner(s).
@nirafelos, @safespacecadet - not all players feel like you, there are a number of players that don't care/would prefer getting through content faster via a higher level character(s). Just because the experience of some is "ruined" by the presence of high level characters doesn't mean exclude them from it. As previously stated if the goals of either (lower or higher level characters) is harmed by the presence/actions of the other they can form their own groups and queue to help prevent the other type from possibly becoming present.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I was replying to this statement which is patently false. The normal dungeon RQ would be available as soon as CT can be queued for and would never be inaccessible at any point thereafter. Level 54 has diddly pipski to do with anything other than having every available normal dungeon available in the RQ as opposed to a lower-level subset of them.
Are you trying to build a case that people would need to group up to use the RQ feature for lowbie dungeons and therefore only 54-70 could queue together? Why would anyone even bother since you can also RQ alone? Not like you'd have to worry about not being able to complete this content, unlike epic dungeon/trial RQs.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia