forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
A league system combined with the above suggestions, would go a very long way towards "fixing PvP". I think, nay, I'm 100% sure we will never see a true class balance in this game, at least not for PvP, but these proposed changes and implementations would likely make up for that. For a while. Until people forget how it used to be.
Wolves, big as a horse! I need new pants!
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
A league system combined with the above suggestions, would go a very long way towards "fixing PvP".
I think, nay, I'm 100% sure we will never see a true class balance in this game, at least not for PvP, but these proposed changes and implementations would likely make up for that. For a while. Until people forget how it used to be.
Agreed. A league system, by the way, is part of the 4 steps in my OP. Bring back NCL (Neverwinter Combat League) with seasonal resets.
I do think it is important to address gear discrepancies via (1) same tenacity and (2) diminishing return stat curves before bringing back NCL and Solo q. But, any of these 4 of things, even if done out of order, would be a step in the right direction.
All the above are valid solutions but we need people playing PVP for developers to start taking interest. Its simple as that. If 95% of the population is doing only pve why devs even care what the rest 5% wants (Although usually pvp players are BiS)
So maybe the first step, is to fix the queue by implementing something that all pvp games allready have : A League System All start in the lowest league and progress to the top as they get better. Each match will have you complete against similar league players.
The current score system is pretty good since its a sum of nodes captured + kills + kills assists + node defended so no class will have a problem.
If queue is fixed then more players will join pvp = devs start implemeting all the nice ideas pvp community proposed.
Just my two cents...
This is a fallacy IMO and its like asking the tail to wag the DOG.
If it is true that 95% of the population is doing PVE its only that way BECAUSE PVP has been neglected. This doesnt give you how many people or what % of the population WOULD DO PVP if it were better. Its only because PVP is in such a horrid state, that leads to the current % of the population only doing PVE. Also I have found at the start of every module even Die Hard PVPers will spec PVE to get stuff done short term, then go back to full PVP and never touch PVE again till next mod.
The "League System" is a great idea IMO. I had proposed this a while ago. However this WONT fix PVP issues. The current problem is the lack of population in PVP NOT matchmaking. People often get these mixed because they think there is a healthy community of players across all gear types in PVP. There isnt. There are a handful of BIS PVPers left in the game that have 3x the power (not the stat) of the average player. I linked my math conculsions above. If you are an average 3k Player, facing a "BIS 4.3k" player that BIS player is closer to 9k or 10k compared to your 3k.
What they need to do is REDUCE that down, so that more people are competitive in PVP. Doing this, gets more % of the population into PVP which you can THEN segregate the population based on "skill/gear" etc...
It ALL starts with bridging the gap between the PVE and PVP player base. Back before ANY modules, the "BIS PVP gear" WAS the BIS PVE gear. There was no tenacity, no boons, nothing. The builds were difffernt and stats different, but a good PVE player was not cannon fodder in PVP. He was respected and could still put up a fight.
Things like Tenacity, Boons, mount bonuses, insignias, etc all created a larger and larger gap between the PVE/PVP player base that is now a HUGE chasm that cannot be crossed.
There are many ways to eliminate this "gap".
#1 of the ways is to do as the OP suggested: Create different diminishing returns for PVP and remove tenacity of gear.
What this does is eliminates the BENEFITS of all the stuff I listed above, because the actual impact of having 40k power vs an average players say 8k Power is very minimal. The actual benefit of stacking 20k armor pen in PVP, or Lifesteal, or (insert stat here) becomes minimal because of the severe diminishing returns that ONLY impact PVP.
So what this does is we go back to that 3k Player fighting a BIS 4.3K Item Level player where maybe the difference isnt that much and that "average" player actually has a fighting chance now... Where as before, at the current level in the game, the 3k player could go get his best 2 buddies and they still couldnt match the BIS PVPer.
This is the problem. Things like NCL would be GREAT but only ONCE PVP is fixed. It would be a great marketing ploy to get people BACK to the game that have left (people would come back to NW btw its not too late) and it wuld get people into PVP that normally just PVE.
But things like NCL wouldnt do anything in the current state. Because that "chasm" exists and cannot be crossed.
Stats need to be "equalized" somehow in PVP and I think the OPs idea of applying a different diminishing return to stats is a great way to achieve the same result of "equalized" PVP.
Think of it as "Reverse Boosting".
When you are leveling, a player who is level 41 gets boosted up to level 49. In this method, the BIS player gets "nerfed down" to a similar power level of an "average" player - via "diminishing returns" on stats.
I came back after a year and some months to try out PvP again, and the same problems are present now as were then. I was in a PvP guild and had the basic minimum to play competently in premade guild domination. I stopped playing because I don't have the time or money to keep up with minimum gear. Which is A LOT of time or money. I was hoping that between mod 6 (when I stopped), and now, some changes would be made to address the core PvP problems. Not so. Maybe it's just time to face it. They have the game they want and are making the money they want from it, and PvP issues will simply never be fixed. They haven't over the years, why would they change now? This from someone with two level 70's, and three more level 60+, with hundreds of hours of playing time and hundreds of dollars invested. It just isn't worth it unless you have thousands of dollars to blow on this game or thousands of hours to play it. Not for me.
+1 This is very well thought out and I think right on target. The devs should take notice because this has done much of their work for them. @mimicking#6533 @strumslinger
To try and post an actual constructive opinion from a "return player": the PvP issue for me is all gear differential. If I knew I could spend $50. and take away 90% of the gear differential, I would do it without even thinking about it. Looking at like $250. or more, nope no way. The PvP population is too small for $50. to make any real difference. Que three times for pug, get three guild premades. I refuse to waste the money. Imagine thousands and thousands of players paying fifty bucks every couple of months instead of the few dozen you have spending $250 or so every few months. It should be a no brainer. The ONLY PvP fun for people who want to just spend fifty bucks here and there is level 11-60. After 60 it gets progressively less fun till you hit level 70 and get constantly roflstomped unless you pay out. That is the view from an old player. People return with cash in hand only to find the cost of playing is wayy more than they want to spend.
To try and post an actual constructive opinion from a "return player": the PvP issue for me is all gear differential. If I knew I could spend $50. and take away 90% of the gear differential, I would do it without even thinking about it. Looking at like $250. or more, nope no way. The PvP population is too small for $50. to make any real difference. Que three times for pug, get three guild premades. I refuse to waste the money. Imagine thousands and thousands of players paying fifty bucks every couple of months instead of the few dozen you have spending $250 or so every few months. It should be a no brainer. The ONLY PvP fun for people who want to just spend fifty bucks here and there is level 11-60. After 60 it gets progressively less fun till you hit level 70 and get constantly roflstomped unless you pay out. That is the view from an old player. People return with cash in hand only to find the cost of playing is wayy more than they want to spend.
100% agree my friend.
11-60 PVP is FAR better than 61+ PVP. The only problem in those levels of PVP is the "twinks" with rank 12s and what not. Sure I could do that myself, but why... its not as fun. I want a challenge, if I wanted the gear gap, id play my main LOL. Not to get off topic but thats why I want to see level requirements on enchants. Maybe Rank 8 and above requires level 61 (meaning Rank 7 is the best you can use < 60) and same with maybe even Greater Enchants+ (meaning Normal and lesser are the only available in <60).
Point being. Neverwinter < level 60 is what it USED to be like back when PVP was much more fun. Thats what they should strive to bring it back to at 70.... I think the OPs suggestions and math would do just that. Provide a way to moot out stat inflation and gear gap between average vs BIS players while keeping all the PVE stuff around.
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paixnidiaris2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 16Arc User
Everything is a matter of perspective. We must stop proposing solutions from the perspective of players and start considering the Developer's way of viewing the game. They want to make money, thats crystal clear. I am a programmer and i know for a fact, that adding new code is faster and easier to implement than removing/fixing.
So, the time needed to remove all thats been added the last mods (tenacity, insignias, mount effects etc) and test them for inconsistencies, is simply too much manhours = $$$. Also the rage from players that spend hours grinding AD or paying zen to get those items, will be huge.
Deactivating them just for pvp is also not an option because if people actually do come back to pvp and cant use those items, then nobody will buy them = loss of money for Perfect World.
A League system on the other hand is cheap to implement. Its an extension of the current queue system. We've seen queue changed so much times, so we know its easy for them.
All i am saying is, if something can be done fast and easy and money would be earned from it, Cryptic will do it. Asking things that "might" bring more revenue to the company but need a whole team of developers/programmers, is a gamble no game developer will take. At least not now, where the golden age of MMORPGs is over.
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
so where it is? we are already waiting for years here for working pvp again, grinding pve and hoping one day .... according to steam numbers, playerbase growing again after a years, so PVE is working a bit, can we turn focus on PVP rework? i dont even bother anymore with solo que cheap bandaid event, which is probably supposed to keep players calm. So stronghold B module will probably be cash cow, so can we get next B module for PVP please? nice christmas gift? for that unholy patience many pvpers still have with this game....
Everything is a matter of perspective. We must stop proposing solutions from the perspective of players and start considering the Developer's way of viewing the game. They want to make money, thats crystal clear. I am a programmer and i know for a fact, that adding new code is faster and easier to implement than removing/fixing.
So, the time needed to remove all thats been added the last mods (tenacity, insignias, mount effects etc) and test them for inconsistencies, is simply too much manhours = $$$. Also the rage from players that spend hours grinding AD or paying zen to get those items, will be huge.
Deactivating them just for pvp is also not an option because if people actually do come back to pvp and cant use those items, then nobody will buy them = loss of money for Perfect World.
A League system on the other hand is cheap to implement. Its an extension of the current queue system. We've seen queue changed so much times, so we know its easy for them.
All i am saying is, if something can be done fast and easy and money would be earned from it, Cryptic will do it. Asking things that "might" bring more revenue to the company but need a whole team of developers/programmers, is a gamble no game developer will take. At least not now, where the golden age of MMORPGs is over.
I agree and am NOT looking at this from the player perspective only. I have advanced degrees in marketing and finance and work in consulting. I understand they need to "make money" on this game.
you talk about adding code being easier. Here is what they need to do.
1) go into the item data base and REMOVE tenacity on gear. This is not hard. You understand this. Its as easy as modding stats on items. No new code required. If you want to get REALLY technical about it, you remove the stats from tenacity and add them back into the other stats on a piece of equipment. So lets hypothetically take the item: [Elemental Lionsmane Executioner Sallet]
Currently: 10,968 HP 487 Power 325 Crit 802 Defense 325 deflect 487 Tenacity
What I suggest is remove the tenacity and apply it to the other stats. EITHER you can take the time and do the math to "evenly spread them out" or, just remove tenacity OR.... Just lump it into say 2 stats like Defense/Power. So the NEW Lionsmane would be:
10,968 HP 687 Power 325 Crit 1089 Defense 325 Deflect
Thats it.
This is NOT hard, it does take a little TIME to go through each piece. But not hard to do. Just man hours and it would likely take maybe Next Step: Stat curves in PVP.
This IS new code. Its not going back and removing anything.
So they create NEW code that has the conditional aspect to it (just like companions) so when you que into GG/Domination/SH SIege it triggers this code that re-adjusts the diminishing return curves for ALL stats. The math on what these SHOULD be is on page 1 in the OP. NEW code, not deleting anything else.
They already have built the conditional code, I cant imagine it hard to copy/paste this into SH Siege for companions as well as having this conditional code apply NEW "diminishing return" values that override how much 20k of a stat gives you.
This might take longer to do, since itll require some testing, but the "condition" is already built, just need to modify it to stats and then adjust the values for stats with that condition. This might take more like 2-4 days time to really get right.
Again, all this is NEW code though, not deleting or undoing ANYTHING.
Now, as for the business aspect of this. I can tell you, not long ago PVP generated more than HALF of their revenue for this game. Where is it today? PVP is dead and revenue and player base are down dramatically. PVPers are the ones who buy stuff. The PROBLEM is Cryptic is very apparent in them trying to suck all the dollars out of its player base with the artifact equipment. This was a bad choice on their part. They SHOULD have instead done what I had told them to do a long time ago: Remove the ZAX.
The "Zen Shop" should have items that could be purchased with EITHER Zen or AD. Then spend DEV time on more cosmetic items for transmutes and what not. This (IMO) is the best way to monetize a game and PROVEN via Path of Exile. They have 90+ Dev team sustained on a FREE TO PLAY game that generates income via microtransactions that are essentially cosmetic only.
When Neverwinter went the "RP" route, thats where it failed. Cryptic removed the curtain of them trying to generate dollars by being very upfront they want people to pay to progress.
In doing the above, it brings PVP back to life. Which brings players BACK to this game and gets PVE players (who dont NEED better gear to do PVE) into PVP where they WANT better gear because even with diminishing returns more stats still = more "power".
Here is the ultimate problem that IMO Cryptic doesnt understand about PVPers.
PVPers will spend BIG $ for silly cosmetic items so they can look awesome while wrecking in PVP. They DONT need to feel forced to buy items to compete in PVP. Also, they WILL spend BIG bucks for a 1-2% "power difference. You dont need to try and entice the players into buying power to gain a 20-30% "power boost" in PVP.
This is where it failed. The "gap" between BIS and average is too large. This is the problem they created a HUGE gap and then gated it behind a paywall.
Think back to PRE_MODULE1 There was no RP. The BIS drops came from DUNGEON runs and were attainable without any real $ into the game. People still spent TONS of money on cosmetic things like transmutes, mounts, or even alts who they didnt wanna PVE for gear. They brought in tons of revenue.
Today, they are trying to "force" people to pay, which only leads to people leaving.
You tell me. Which one is the better business model.
so where it is? we are already waiting for years here for working pvp again, grinding pve and hoping one day .... according to steam numbers, playerbase growing again after a years, so PVE is working a bit, can we turn focus on PVP rework? i dont even bother anymore with solo que cheap bandaid event, which is probably supposed to keep players calm. So stronghold B module will probably be cash cow, so can we get next B module for PVP please? nice christmas gift? for that unholy patience many pvpers still have with this game....
Thanks for saying this, because it is exactly right. The "Solo Q" thing is a bandaid only, its NOT a fix long term. It will NOT bring players back, it will NOT solve the problem that a BIS player can take on 3+ average players and kill them.
Also it alienates "Premades" which are the "ultimate end game" for PVPers. It would almost be like removing dungeons from this game in place of skirmishes (oh wait.... LOL).
But seriously, Solo Q is a bandaid to prevent BIS premades from PUG stomping.
This wasnt a problem when BIS players had LESS of a gear advantage pre-modules. I would frequently go into PVP on PUG teams and BEAT premades. I enjoyed it.
You dont need solo Q if you fix the REAL issues in PVP: Gear Gap.
How to do this easily and efficiently has been clearly laid out in this thread.
It is still shocking to me that the potential goldmine that is PvP is pretty much entirely overlooked. There really is no gaming experience quite like neverwinter domination PvP between two well coordinated teams of roughly equal gear and skill. People will pay a reasonable amount for that experience, but try to milk them and they go away and less and less profit is made. More fun for us, more profit for them. What is so hard about that?
It is still shocking to me that the potential goldmine that is PvP is pretty much entirely overlooked. There really is no gaming experience quite like neverwinter domination PvP between two well coordinated teams of roughly equal gear and skill. People will pay a reasonable amount for that experience, but try to milk them and they go away and less and less profit is made. More fun for us, more profit for them. What is so hard about that?
Thanks for putting this in a simplified way. I said roughly the same thing in a MUCH longer, wordier post above LOL. You nailed it.
This is a potential gold mine. No other game has PVP experience quite like Neverwinter had (in its prime). People WOULD pay a reasonable amount for this. Try and milk it for $ and it goes away (like it has).
#MakeNeverwinterPvpGreatAgain!
NW PVP was AMAZING Pre-Modules. Each and every module release ruined PVP more and more and more... I mean PVP PRE-60 today is a much better PVP experience than max level....
I am wandering if the solution is not to simply have a PvP only fresh start server where you can't transfer old characters onto and have to start from scratch at level one. Throw in the NCL, some bare bones questing and dungeons and make the whole thing open world pvp with zone appropriate level maximums (can't enter the 30-35 zone if you're level 36). Bare bones gear as well, with of course, diminishing returns. No companion or mount bonuses. True microtransactions, like $30. a month keeps you in gear parity.
This game is the very definition of action combat mmorpg, and that means truly amazing PvP. Even after being away a couple years and playing all kinds of games in the meantime, nothing comes close to nw domination PvP when there is parity with both teams. The closest thing that comes to mind is the old castle wolfenstein enemy territory PvP.
I started playing Neverwinter JUST AFTER Beta, so about 4 years ago, I have always played both PvE and PvP, I have loved & STILL love PvP. My guild & alliance consists of very dedicated (and many money investing) players, most of which, won't TOUCH PvP because of the horridly unbalanced match ups and TROLLING (Bullying by anyone's standard) that takes place. BUT I am shocked by the number of PvE players that say that would LOVE to PvP, if it were ever "fixed" And the original post here is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, there will be very little Dev resources allocated to "fixing" PvP without more people PvPing, PERIOD. And while I agree with josiahiyon's assertion "keep it simple", I offer one addition to be done FIRST, because it is the EASIEST & QUICKEST fix. IT WILL draw both new players and old players who have given up on PvP into the PvP population, there by justifying spending time to "fix" PvP further. Match players with players within 300-500 item level of eachother. Will this EASY "fix" lengthen que times, yes, but I have had many conversations with people who WON'T PvP now, BUT would love to PvP IF THIS WAS DONE, even if it meant 15-20 minutes in the que, they would just simply do dailies and other tasks while waiting. But many people who don't PvP AT ALL NOW, and people like me, that give it a shot a couple of times a week, would start PvPing in droves, even with an increase in que time. The Trolls (the ones who have driven people away from PvP & some people away from the game entirely) will whine about the lengthy que time, because they are happy to quickly que into an unbalanced match and wipe the floor with players that SHOULDN'T BE MATCHED UP AGAINST THEM) but so what, they will still PvP with the longer que time. And in the end, even they will enjoy PvP more because of the competitive match ups. I have spoke to NO ONE who would prefer quickly ques & beat downs. So before we go completely removing stats like tenacity from gear that people have worked hard to earn, lets "keep it simple". Stop tossing 1800 item level toons in with 4200 item level toons. Putting a curve on stats, healing depression, suppression of powers, etc. will work as well as "you are now playing at level ??" which doesn't EVER successfully work well, so I doubt it will work in PvP either. But putting players against players of similar item level WILL WORK, and it is the easiest place to start
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
@jamesis247 that works until the bis people realize that they can just strip off their artifacts and artifact equipment before q, then put back on after in match. Not to troll, but to speed up the que.
The other issue is that, even if cryptic could 'lock' gear, it's entirely possible to make a 2500 ilvl toon that is near BIS. Boons, potions, mount insignias, legendary mounts, and other stuff that doesn't count towards item level create significant imbalance.
Iyon the Dark
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited March 2017
@jamesis24 Devs of the game have created a false Item level allowed to it balloon out of control.. It deliberately misleads players into thinking they have a chance or they are "close" for the min item level of the content or pvp when in fact they are miles away
Take for example a 2.5k min item level dungeon / area and you go in and there are like level 73 mobs Player then complains that content is to hard for item level not relizing the Devs counted on the fact that you have 3 bonding rune stones (not counted in items level ) and by then you might already be sucked in to opening your wallet to (compete) If you saw lets say you need a 7000k (true item level) you might be scared off and not even try or cry unfair this is all part of the sneak meant cause you pain monitization system and they are selling the medicine aka bonding stones
Item Level Accuracy needs to be fixed across the entire game if not it is impossible to balance pve or pvp content
@josiahiyon I HAVE to correct your "Not to troll, but to speed up the que" comment. THAT IS COMPLETELY TROLLY AT ITS WORST, PERIOD. As far as "the other issues" It never did make sense to me why, especially for PvP matching purposes, that a value could not be given for a toons boons, active companion bonuses, mount bonuses, etc. Giving toons a REAL and ACCURATE rating (call it item level, call it WHATEVER) is easily done, and grouping them with similar toons for the purpose of balanced match ups should be VERY simple. Don't fool yourself into thinking up reasons it wouldn't work, when the solutions are elementary
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
you both are actually saying and advocating the same thing ..if they fix and put and accurate item levels then there is no reason that a match cant be in an item level range like suggested ...if they dont matching by item level in increments of 500 or whatever are useless
yes it is troll at its worst to try and circumvent the item system by removing gear .. there fore gear wouild have to be locked and like i advocated a sperate tab for pvp mode/ Dual spec which the devs are working on
the dual spec pvp build item level/ gear can be locked and used when you pop into the match
while you are waiting farming content you are using your pve build
He made this comment sarcastically
"@josiahiyon "Not to troll, but to speed up the que" comment. "
cause thats is what scrubby players are going to use / rationalise as the excuse why they swapped gear ..therefor not a good solution (qing by item level unless gear is locked and item levels are normalised )
@josiahiyon I HAVE to correct your "Not to troll, but to speed up the que" comment. THAT IS COMPLETELY TROLLY AT ITS WORST, PERIOD. As far as "the other issues" It never did make sense to me why, especially for PvP matching purposes, that a value could not be given for a toons boons, active companion bonuses, mount bonuses, etc. Giving toons a REAL and ACCURATE rating (call it item level, call it WHATEVER) is easily done, and grouping them with similar toons for the purpose of balanced match ups should be VERY simple. Don't fool yourself into thinking up reasons it wouldn't work, when the solutions are elementary
Here is the problem. I have already calculated on the previous page that MINIMALLY potions account for 1,500 Item Level.
Then you add in things like Mounts/Insignias and the "boon" difference a BIS player has (with basically 100% of boons done AND SH rank 20 boons) compared to the "Average" player who might have 50-60% of their boons done....
My point being, if you were to create an "item level" for all those things, that 4.3k player is very easily closer to say 10k or maybe even more... So lets just be conservative and say 10k is a full BIS player.
So now you have item level ranging from essentially 1 - 10,000.
So here is the problem you bump into. Lets say you DO split the community up into 500 item level brackets (i.e. 9000-9,500, and 9,501-10,000 etc) the POPULATION is too low, where any team of 9k+ players will sit around for eternity never getting ANY pvp games because the general population is in the 3-4k item level range.
Even if you broaden the parameters and say 8k-10k is in their own bracket you have the same problem. The % of players that have this, are very small due to the size of the PVP population.
So yes, in THEORY your system would work great (assuming they can "lock gear") but it would ONLY work with 1 of 2 changes: 1) Increased population 2) Removal of all the excess items that inflate "item level".
They cant really control 1. So this leaves #2.
This all goes back to the PRIMARY problem in PVP: Gear Gap.
The "allowable" gear gap a game can sustain directly correlates to its population. A game like World of Warcraft that has millions of players, at any time likely has tens of thousands if not more "BIS Players" so if it wanted to have a massive gear gap, it could afford to do so because at any time it can easily create "fair" matches on each side.
Interestingly enough, World of Warcraft decided to equalize PVP completely. Being a game that arguably has the MOST ground for allowing a large gear gap, they determined it was a smart business move to equalize gear completely.... They are no dummies. I suspect they spent a ton on research on this point and found out what Neverwinter is NOW finding out (at its own cost in a different way).
PVPers will pay a TON for a LITTLE advantage. Try and make people pay for a BIG advantage and it ruins the game. This is where Cryptic failed.
Anyways the point being. Your solution of "brackets" would work fine IF: 1) They locked gear on QUEING for PVP (this has some concerns BTW) 2) They REMOVED all items that currently do not impact Item Level: Meaning companions, mounts, insignias, ALL boons, etc. Because the "gear range" would be capped at 4,300(ish) then and having a bracket of 500 item level could be easily met even with a small population game.
So... I calculated on previous page CONSERVATIVE estimates of 1,500 item level for potions. I just did the same with boons. HIGHLY conservative estimates of stats and not including things like movement speed, or mount speed bonus etc, and only assuming 400 "stats" for all the non-tangible ones (i.e. Endless consumption actually DOUBLES your lifesteal so could be in excess of 10k+ stats easily but only saying its 400 in this calculation)
I arrive at over 33,000 in stats from all the boons. Which = 3,871 ITEM LEVEL from boons alone. (and this is likely higher btw and closer to 5k if I had to guess).
So now you have: +1500 item level from potions + 4000 item level from boons + 468 (minimally) from mount (assuming 4k stats)
NOT including things like insignias etc.
A 4.3k Player is REALLY about a 10k Item Level player (as I suggested above).
Assuming ~60% completion on boons, average 3.5K item level player. No stats on mount, no potions = ~ 5.5k Item Level player.
Again VERY conservative estimates... that dont include everything, merely mounts+boons+potions+gear.
So THIS is why the "bracket" idea doesnt work. I could take a 3.5k item level player with the above and I would be a "9K" Player versus a 3.5K player without those things = about a 5.5k Player...
The power of those things are far too large for not having it count towards the "item level Number".
EDIT: Insignia calculation: 3x300x5=4.5k stats = about 400 more item level. NOT including the insignia "bonus" which probably trumps those stats but... now we know thats atleast another 400 stats... Which gets us closer to 11k Item Level "BIS player"
Prior to "item level" was "gear score/GS". That was actually a far more accurate measurement of character power. All of this extra <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with companions and mounts and so on adding to your stats didn't even exist. Not to mention that the number of boons you could get was really small compared to what you can get now. GS was replaced by IL in order to make things look more even between characters when the reality is that the gear differential is more out of balance than ever.
To be blunt, it was a pretty blatantly deceptive move. This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters. IL is not a measurement of character power, it is simply a deceptive marketing tool. Neverwinter is not made as something to make money in the long term, but rather as a way to make a few hundred bucks off players in the short term, who will quit within several months when they see what's actually going on and refuse to shell out even more money to stay competitive.
This is a fast and dirty turnover fast food version of an mmo than leans on that d&d license for perceived credibility. The PvP has amazing potential that likely, sadly, will never be realized.
The funny thing is that if NWO could be emulated, a PvP emulation made by and for players would quickly dwarf the mmo in terms of player population.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
"To be blunt, it was a pretty blatantly deceptive move. This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters. IL is not a measurement of character power, it is simply a deceptive marketing tool."
Prior to "item level" was "gear score/GS". That was actually a far more accurate measurement of character power. All of this extra HAMSTER with companions and mounts and so on adding to your stats didn't even exist. Not to mention that the number of boons you could get was really small compared to what you can get now. GS was replaced by IL in order to make things look more even between characters when the reality is that the gear differential is more out of balance than ever.
To be blunt, it was a pretty blatantly deceptive move. This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters. IL is not a measurement of character power, it is simply a deceptive marketing tool. Neverwinter is not made as something to make money in the long term, but rather as a way to make a few hundred bucks off players in the short term, who will quit within several months when they see what's actually going on and refuse to shell out even more money to stay competitive.
This is a fast and dirty turnover fast food version of an mmo than leans on that d&d license for perceived credibility. The PvP has amazing potential that likely, sadly, will never be realized.
The funny thing is that if NWO could be emulated, a PvP emulation made by and for players would quickly dwarf the mmo in terms of player population.
Wow dude, this is amazing. So true, accurate and precise. Im gonna start sending you all my posts to edit for me before posting them because you have an excellent way with words...
So true....
"GS was replaced by IL in order to make things look more even between characters when the reality is that the gear differential is more out of balance than ever."
"This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters."
"Neverwinter is not made as something to make money in the long term, but rather as a way to make a few hundred bucks off players in the short term"
"The funny thing is that if NWO could be emulated, a PvP emulation made by and for players would quickly dwarf the mmo in terms of player population."
That last point about a "private server" has already been buzzing around for about a year. People claim they could do it, but dont want to spend the work to have it shut down by PWE or Cryptic, kinda like that private WOW server that had like 100k players on it...
I started playing Neverwinter JUST AFTER Beta, so about 4 years ago, I have always played both PvE and PvP, I have loved & STILL love PvP. My guild & alliance consists of very dedicated (and many money investing) players, most of which, won't TOUCH PvP because of the horridly unbalanced match ups and TROLLING (Bullying by anyone's standard) that takes place. BUT I am shocked by the number of PvE players that say that would LOVE to PvP, if it were ever "fixed" And the original post here is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, there will be very little Dev resources allocated to "fixing" PvP without more people PvPing, PERIOD. And while I agree with josiahiyon's assertion "keep it simple", I offer one addition to be done FIRST, because it is the EASIEST & QUICKEST fix. IT WILL draw both new players and old players who have given up on PvP into the PvP population, there by justifying spending time to "fix" PvP further. Match players with players within 300-500 item level of eachother. Will this EASY "fix" lengthen que times, yes, but I have had many conversations with people who WON'T PvP now, BUT would love to PvP IF THIS WAS DONE, even if it meant 15-20 minutes in the que, they would just simply do dailies and other tasks while waiting. But many people who don't PvP AT ALL NOW, and people like me, that give it a shot a couple of times a week, would start PvPing in droves, even with an increase in que time. The Trolls (the ones who have driven people away from PvP & some people away from the game entirely) will whine about the lengthy que time, because they are happy to quickly que into an unbalanced match and wipe the floor with players that SHOULDN'T BE MATCHED UP AGAINST THEM) but so what, they will still PvP with the longer que time. And in the end, even they will enjoy PvP more because of the competitive match ups. I have spoke to NO ONE who would prefer quickly ques & beat downs. So before we go completely removing stats like tenacity from gear that people have worked hard to earn, lets "keep it simple". Stop tossing 1800 item level toons in with 4200 item level toons. Putting a curve on stats, healing depression, suppression of powers, etc. will work as well as "you are now playing at level ??" which doesn't EVER successfully work well, so I doubt it will work in PvP either. But putting players against players of similar item level WILL WORK, and it is the easiest place to start
The problem is: it's a catch 22 situation. The devs won't invest the resources to fix PvP without more population. The players won't PvP in the current broken situation. And what could be the best PvP on the intrawebz dies, not with a bang but with a whimper. If only we had a "simple solution" that drastically increased the PvP population over the course of a weekend... or, y'know, we could just make solo Q' permanent.
The problem is: it's a catch 22 situation. The devs won't invest the resources to fix PvP without more population. The players won't PvP in the current broken situation. And what could be the best PvP on the intrawebz dies, not with a bang but with a whimper. If only we had a "simple solution" that drastically increased the PvP population over the course of a weekend... or, y'know, we could just make solo Q' permanent.
Man why does this sound familiar.... OH wait... (scrolls up)
so where it is? we are already waiting for years here for working pvp again, grinding pve and hoping one day .... according to steam numbers, playerbase growing again after a years, so PVE is working a bit, can we turn focus on PVP rework? i dont even bother anymore with solo que cheap bandaid event, which is probably supposed to keep players calm. So stronghold B module will probably be cash cow, so can we get next B module for PVP please? nice christmas gift? for that unholy patience many pvpers still have with this game....
The "Solo Q" thing is a bandaid only, its NOT a fix long term. It will NOT bring players back, it will NOT solve the problem that a BIS player can take on 3+ average players and kill them.
Also it alienates "Premades" which are the "ultimate end game" for PVPers. It would almost be like removing dungeons from this game in place of skirmishes (oh wait.... LOL).
But seriously, Solo Q is a bandaid to prevent BIS premades from PUG stomping.
This wasnt a problem when BIS players had LESS of a gear advantage pre-modules. I would frequently go into PVP on PUG teams and BEAT premades. I enjoyed it.
You dont need solo Q if you fix the REAL issues in PVP: Gear Gap.
How to do this easily and efficiently has been clearly laid out in this thread.
It IS a catch 22 and HOPEFULLY the developers will see this and invest into PVP because the players have LONG since been investing and many cant do it anymore. Its why players have left.
If they needed "numbers" to justify investing in PVP they HAD it and let it slip. it should be VERY easy to take data about PVP and PVPERs to the "higher ups" and justify spending (DEV time) on PVP.
I would almost bet a 1:1 correlation in PVP : Profits.
Ayroux, thank you! All of this being true, I still find myself trying to think of the cheapest and easiest ways possible to catch up to mod ten in terms of gear. I could probably force my 13 year old to grind everything out but that might be bad parenting. Most likely I'll just not buy anything, roll a new character and enjoy PvP till 60-70 then quit again for a few years. I think the only way an emulation would really work is if the servers were physically located in a country that doesn't enforce this kind of stuff lol
"The problem is: it's a catch 22 situation. The devs won't invest the resources to fix PvP without more population. The players won't PvP in the current broken situation. And what could be the best PvP on the intrawebz dies, not with a bang but with a whimper. If only we had a "simple solution" that drastically increased the PvP population over the course of a weekend... or, y'know, we could just make solo Q' permanent. "
A pvp-centric fresh start server (like archage did) that allowed zero transfer of any current account would produce near instant results I think.
josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Looks like mod 11.5 will be addressing 1 issue: item level will now better represent actual player power. Improved power transparency is nice. Hopefully closing the pvp gear gap is on the list as well.
Josiahiyon, even very rough parity in gear power would go a very long way. I don't think the devs realize how far outta wack it is right now. If even utilizing ever-present class imbalance and pure skill could make you competitive against a average higher geared player, that would go a long long way.
For example, just prior to mod six you could roll a TIGHT TR, and between stealth and ITC, you could at least hold back node for a long time against a superior geared player of equal skill, and could clear that node of the better geared player if you had superior skills. Likewise CW. The only issue came at about page 30 of the leaderboard where you start getting tougher and tougher matches. A pay ceiling existing at about page ten. Where most folks were about equally skilled with solid builds and those who paid out continued to climb. I was fine with that.
Usually challenging matches every match until you get to high up the ladder and lose a few in a row until you started getting more equal competition again via matchmaking. The big difference between then and now being low PvP population and vastly increased gear gap, now. Two problems that feed each other to the death of NWO PvP.
Make gear differential have less of an impact on match results and PvP population will grow.
The solutions proposed in this thread are key. I would ad that in addition to making gear less important, a less time/money expensive way to get new gear would go a long way.
The VIP system is really pretty sweet but something more is called for. Like a PvP subscription (whatever you wanna name it) that costs a little more but offers more for PvP players. Mind you, when I say PvP I mean domination. It is and always has been the only really strong PvP game that NWO has ever had.
Comments
I think, nay, I'm 100% sure we will never see a true class balance in this game, at least not for PvP, but these proposed changes and implementations would likely make up for that. For a while. Until people forget how it used to be.
I do think it is important to address gear discrepancies via (1) same tenacity and (2) diminishing return stat curves before bringing back NCL and Solo q. But, any of these 4 of things, even if done out of order, would be a step in the right direction.
Iyon the Dark
If it is true that 95% of the population is doing PVE its only that way BECAUSE PVP has been neglected. This doesnt give you how many people or what % of the population WOULD DO PVP if it were better. Its only because PVP is in such a horrid state, that leads to the current % of the population only doing PVE. Also I have found at the start of every module even Die Hard PVPers will spec PVE to get stuff done short term, then go back to full PVP and never touch PVE again till next mod.
The "League System" is a great idea IMO. I had proposed this a while ago. However this WONT fix PVP issues. The current problem is the lack of population in PVP NOT matchmaking. People often get these mixed because they think there is a healthy community of players across all gear types in PVP. There isnt. There are a handful of BIS PVPers left in the game that have 3x the power (not the stat) of the average player. I linked my math conculsions above. If you are an average 3k Player, facing a "BIS 4.3k" player that BIS player is closer to 9k or 10k compared to your 3k.
What they need to do is REDUCE that down, so that more people are competitive in PVP. Doing this, gets more % of the population into PVP which you can THEN segregate the population based on "skill/gear" etc...
It ALL starts with bridging the gap between the PVE and PVP player base. Back before ANY modules, the "BIS PVP gear" WAS the BIS PVE gear. There was no tenacity, no boons, nothing. The builds were difffernt and stats different, but a good PVE player was not cannon fodder in PVP. He was respected and could still put up a fight.
Things like Tenacity, Boons, mount bonuses, insignias, etc all created a larger and larger gap between the PVE/PVP player base that is now a HUGE chasm that cannot be crossed.
There are many ways to eliminate this "gap".
#1 of the ways is to do as the OP suggested: Create different diminishing returns for PVP and remove tenacity of gear.
What this does is eliminates the BENEFITS of all the stuff I listed above, because the actual impact of having 40k power vs an average players say 8k Power is very minimal. The actual benefit of stacking 20k armor pen in PVP, or Lifesteal, or (insert stat here) becomes minimal because of the severe diminishing returns that ONLY impact PVP.
So what this does is we go back to that 3k Player fighting a BIS 4.3K Item Level player where maybe the difference isnt that much and that "average" player actually has a fighting chance now... Where as before, at the current level in the game, the 3k player could go get his best 2 buddies and they still couldnt match the BIS PVPer.
This is the problem. Things like NCL would be GREAT but only ONCE PVP is fixed. It would be a great marketing ploy to get people BACK to the game that have left (people would come back to NW btw its not too late) and it wuld get people into PVP that normally just PVE.
But things like NCL wouldnt do anything in the current state. Because that "chasm" exists and cannot be crossed.
Stats need to be "equalized" somehow in PVP and I think the OPs idea of applying a different diminishing return to stats is a great way to achieve the same result of "equalized" PVP.
Think of it as "Reverse Boosting".
When you are leveling, a player who is level 41 gets boosted up to level 49.
In this method, the BIS player gets "nerfed down" to a similar power level of an "average" player - via "diminishing returns" on stats.
The devs should take notice because this has done much of their work for them.
@mimicking#6533
@strumslinger
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
11-60 PVP is FAR better than 61+ PVP. The only problem in those levels of PVP is the "twinks" with rank 12s and what not. Sure I could do that myself, but why... its not as fun. I want a challenge, if I wanted the gear gap, id play my main LOL. Not to get off topic but thats why I want to see level requirements on enchants. Maybe Rank 8 and above requires level 61 (meaning Rank 7 is the best you can use < 60) and same with maybe even Greater Enchants+ (meaning Normal and lesser are the only available in <60).
Point being. Neverwinter < level 60 is what it USED to be like back when PVP was much more fun. Thats what they should strive to bring it back to at 70.... I think the OPs suggestions and math would do just that. Provide a way to moot out stat inflation and gear gap between average vs BIS players while keeping all the PVE stuff around.
So, the time needed to remove all thats been added the last mods (tenacity, insignias, mount effects etc) and test them for inconsistencies, is simply too much manhours = $$$. Also the rage from players that spend hours grinding AD or paying zen to get those items, will be huge.
Deactivating them just for pvp is also not an option because if people actually do come back to pvp and cant use those items, then nobody will buy them = loss of money for Perfect World.
A League system on the other hand is cheap to implement. Its an extension of the current queue system. We've seen queue changed so much times, so we know its easy for them.
All i am saying is, if something can be done fast and easy and money would be earned from it, Cryptic will do it. Asking things that "might" bring more revenue to the company but need a whole team of developers/programmers, is a gamble no game developer will take. At least not now, where the golden age of MMORPGs is over.
Youtube Channel
i dont even bother anymore with solo que cheap bandaid event, which is probably supposed to keep players calm. So stronghold B module will probably be cash cow, so can we get next B module for PVP please? nice christmas gift? for that unholy patience many pvpers still have with this game....
@mimicking#6533 ???
you talk about adding code being easier. Here is what they need to do.
1) go into the item data base and REMOVE tenacity on gear. This is not hard. You understand this. Its as easy as modding stats on items. No new code required. If you want to get REALLY technical about it, you remove the stats from tenacity and add them back into the other stats on a piece of equipment. So lets hypothetically take the item: [Elemental Lionsmane Executioner Sallet]
Currently:
10,968 HP
487 Power
325 Crit
802 Defense
325 deflect
487 Tenacity
What I suggest is remove the tenacity and apply it to the other stats. EITHER you can take the time and do the math to "evenly spread them out" or, just remove tenacity OR.... Just lump it into say 2 stats like Defense/Power. So the NEW Lionsmane would be:
10,968 HP
687 Power
325 Crit
1089 Defense
325 Deflect
Thats it.
This is NOT hard, it does take a little TIME to go through each piece. But not hard to do. Just man hours and it would likely take maybe Next Step: Stat curves in PVP.
This IS new code. Its not going back and removing anything.
So they create NEW code that has the conditional aspect to it (just like companions) so when you que into GG/Domination/SH SIege it triggers this code that re-adjusts the diminishing return curves for ALL stats. The math on what these SHOULD be is on page 1 in the OP. NEW code, not deleting anything else.
They already have built the conditional code, I cant imagine it hard to copy/paste this into SH Siege for companions as well as having this conditional code apply NEW "diminishing return" values that override how much 20k of a stat gives you.
This might take longer to do, since itll require some testing, but the "condition" is already built, just need to modify it to stats and then adjust the values for stats with that condition. This might take more like 2-4 days time to really get right.
Again, all this is NEW code though, not deleting or undoing ANYTHING.
Now, as for the business aspect of this. I can tell you, not long ago PVP generated more than HALF of their revenue for this game. Where is it today? PVP is dead and revenue and player base are down dramatically. PVPers are the ones who buy stuff. The PROBLEM is Cryptic is very apparent in them trying to suck all the dollars out of its player base with the artifact equipment. This was a bad choice on their part. They SHOULD have instead done what I had told them to do a long time ago: Remove the ZAX.
The "Zen Shop" should have items that could be purchased with EITHER Zen or AD. Then spend DEV time on more cosmetic items for transmutes and what not. This (IMO) is the best way to monetize a game and PROVEN via Path of Exile. They have 90+ Dev team sustained on a FREE TO PLAY game that generates income via microtransactions that are essentially cosmetic only.
When Neverwinter went the "RP" route, thats where it failed. Cryptic removed the curtain of them trying to generate dollars by being very upfront they want people to pay to progress.
In doing the above, it brings PVP back to life. Which brings players BACK to this game and gets PVE players (who dont NEED better gear to do PVE) into PVP where they WANT better gear because even with diminishing returns more stats still = more "power".
Here is the ultimate problem that IMO Cryptic doesnt understand about PVPers.
PVPers will spend BIG $ for silly cosmetic items so they can look awesome while wrecking in PVP. They DONT need to feel forced to buy items to compete in PVP. Also, they WILL spend BIG bucks for a 1-2% "power difference. You dont need to try and entice the players into buying power to gain a 20-30% "power boost" in PVP.
This is where it failed. The "gap" between BIS and average is too large. This is the problem they created a HUGE gap and then gated it behind a paywall.
Think back to PRE_MODULE1 There was no RP. The BIS drops came from DUNGEON runs and were attainable without any real $ into the game. People still spent TONS of money on cosmetic things like transmutes, mounts, or even alts who they didnt wanna PVE for gear. They brought in tons of revenue.
Today, they are trying to "force" people to pay, which only leads to people leaving.
You tell me. Which one is the better business model.
Also it alienates "Premades" which are the "ultimate end game" for PVPers. It would almost be like removing dungeons from this game in place of skirmishes (oh wait.... LOL).
But seriously, Solo Q is a bandaid to prevent BIS premades from PUG stomping.
This wasnt a problem when BIS players had LESS of a gear advantage pre-modules. I would frequently go into PVP on PUG teams and BEAT premades. I enjoyed it.
You dont need solo Q if you fix the REAL issues in PVP: Gear Gap.
How to do this easily and efficiently has been clearly laid out in this thread.
This is a potential gold mine.
No other game has PVP experience quite like Neverwinter had (in its prime).
People WOULD pay a reasonable amount for this.
Try and milk it for $ and it goes away (like it has).
#MakeNeverwinterPvpGreatAgain!
NW PVP was AMAZING Pre-Modules. Each and every module release ruined PVP more and more and more... I mean PVP PRE-60 today is a much better PVP experience than max level....
This game is the very definition of action combat mmorpg, and that means truly amazing PvP. Even after being away a couple years and playing all kinds of games in the meantime, nothing comes close to nw domination PvP when there is parity with both teams. The closest thing that comes to mind is the old castle wolfenstein enemy territory PvP.
F*** I love this game lol
And the original post here is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, there will be very little Dev resources allocated to "fixing" PvP without more people PvPing, PERIOD.
And while I agree with josiahiyon's assertion "keep it simple", I offer one addition to be done FIRST, because it is the EASIEST & QUICKEST fix. IT WILL draw both new players and old players who have given up on PvP into the PvP population, there by justifying spending time to "fix" PvP further.
Match players with players within 300-500 item level of eachother.
Will this EASY "fix" lengthen que times, yes, but I have had many conversations with people who WON'T PvP now, BUT would love to PvP IF THIS WAS DONE, even if it meant 15-20 minutes in the que, they would just simply do dailies and other tasks while waiting. But many people who don't PvP AT ALL NOW, and people like me, that give it a shot a couple of times a week, would start PvPing in droves, even with an increase in que time.
The Trolls (the ones who have driven people away from PvP & some people away from the game entirely) will whine about the lengthy que time, because they are happy to quickly que into an unbalanced match and wipe the floor with players that SHOULDN'T BE MATCHED UP AGAINST THEM) but so what, they will still PvP with the longer que time. And in the end, even they will enjoy PvP more because of the competitive match ups.
I have spoke to NO ONE who would prefer quickly ques & beat downs.
So before we go completely removing stats like tenacity from gear that people have worked hard to earn, lets "keep it simple". Stop tossing 1800 item level toons in with 4200 item level toons.
Putting a curve on stats, healing depression, suppression of powers, etc. will work as well as "you are now playing at level ??" which doesn't EVER successfully work well, so I doubt it will work in PvP either.
But putting players against players of similar item level WILL WORK, and it is the easiest place to start
The other issue is that, even if cryptic could 'lock' gear, it's entirely possible to make a 2500 ilvl toon that is near BIS. Boons, potions, mount insignias, legendary mounts, and other stuff that doesn't count towards item level create significant imbalance.
Iyon the Dark
Take for example a 2.5k min item level dungeon / area
and you go in and there are like level 73 mobs
Player then complains that content is to hard for item level
not relizing the Devs counted on the fact that you have 3 bonding rune stones (not counted in items level )
and by then you might already be sucked in to opening your wallet to (compete)
If you saw lets say you need a 7000k (true item level) you might be scared off and not even try or cry unfair
this is all part of the sneak meant cause you pain monitization system and they are selling the medicine aka bonding stones
Item Level Accuracy needs to be fixed across the entire game if not it is impossible to balance pve or pvp content
I HAVE to correct your "Not to troll, but to speed up the que" comment. THAT IS COMPLETELY TROLLY AT ITS WORST, PERIOD.
As far as "the other issues" It never did make sense to me why, especially for PvP matching purposes, that a value could not be given for a toons boons, active companion bonuses, mount bonuses, etc. Giving toons a REAL and ACCURATE rating (call it item level, call it WHATEVER) is easily done, and grouping them with similar toons for the purpose of balanced match ups should be VERY simple. Don't fool yourself into thinking up reasons it wouldn't work, when the solutions are elementary
you both are actually saying and advocating the same thing ..if they fix and put and accurate item levels then there is no reason that a match cant be in an item level range like suggested ...if they dont matching by item level in increments of 500 or whatever are useless
yes it is troll at its worst to try and circumvent the item system by removing gear .. there fore gear wouild have to be locked
and like i advocated a sperate tab for pvp mode/ Dual spec which the devs are working on
the dual spec pvp build item level/ gear can be locked and used when you pop into the match
while you are waiting farming content you are using your pve build
He made this comment sarcastically
"@josiahiyon
"Not to troll, but to speed up the que" comment. "
cause thats is what scrubby players are going to use / rationalise as the excuse why they swapped gear ..therefor not a good solution (qing by item level unless gear is locked and item levels are normalised )
Then you add in things like Mounts/Insignias and the "boon" difference a BIS player has (with basically 100% of boons done AND SH rank 20 boons) compared to the "Average" player who might have 50-60% of their boons done....
My point being, if you were to create an "item level" for all those things, that 4.3k player is very easily closer to say 10k or maybe even more... So lets just be conservative and say 10k is a full BIS player.
So now you have item level ranging from essentially 1 - 10,000.
So here is the problem you bump into. Lets say you DO split the community up into 500 item level brackets (i.e. 9000-9,500, and 9,501-10,000 etc) the POPULATION is too low, where any team of 9k+ players will sit around for eternity never getting ANY pvp games because the general population is in the 3-4k item level range.
Even if you broaden the parameters and say 8k-10k is in their own bracket you have the same problem. The % of players that have this, are very small due to the size of the PVP population.
So yes, in THEORY your system would work great (assuming they can "lock gear") but it would ONLY work with 1 of 2 changes:
1) Increased population
2) Removal of all the excess items that inflate "item level".
They cant really control 1. So this leaves #2.
This all goes back to the PRIMARY problem in PVP: Gear Gap.
The "allowable" gear gap a game can sustain directly correlates to its population. A game like World of Warcraft that has millions of players, at any time likely has tens of thousands if not more "BIS Players" so if it wanted to have a massive gear gap, it could afford to do so because at any time it can easily create "fair" matches on each side.
Interestingly enough, World of Warcraft decided to equalize PVP completely. Being a game that arguably has the MOST ground for allowing a large gear gap, they determined it was a smart business move to equalize gear completely.... They are no dummies. I suspect they spent a ton on research on this point and found out what Neverwinter is NOW finding out (at its own cost in a different way).
PVPers will pay a TON for a LITTLE advantage.
Try and make people pay for a BIG advantage and it ruins the game.
This is where Cryptic failed.
Anyways the point being. Your solution of "brackets" would work fine IF:
1) They locked gear on QUEING for PVP (this has some concerns BTW)
2) They REMOVED all items that currently do not impact Item Level: Meaning companions, mounts, insignias, ALL boons, etc. Because the "gear range" would be capped at 4,300(ish) then and having a bracket of 500 item level could be easily met even with a small population game.
So... I calculated on previous page CONSERVATIVE estimates of 1,500 item level for potions. I just did the same with boons. HIGHLY conservative estimates of stats and not including things like movement speed, or mount speed bonus etc, and only assuming 400 "stats" for all the non-tangible ones (i.e. Endless consumption actually DOUBLES your lifesteal so could be in excess of 10k+ stats easily but only saying its 400 in this calculation)
I arrive at over 33,000 in stats from all the boons. Which = 3,871 ITEM LEVEL from boons alone. (and this is likely higher btw and closer to 5k if I had to guess).
So now you have:
+1500 item level from potions
+ 4000 item level from boons
+ 468 (minimally) from mount (assuming 4k stats)
NOT including things like insignias etc.
A 4.3k Player is REALLY about a 10k Item Level player (as I suggested above).
Assuming ~60% completion on boons, average 3.5K item level player. No stats on mount, no potions =
~ 5.5k Item Level player.
Again VERY conservative estimates... that dont include everything, merely mounts+boons+potions+gear.
So THIS is why the "bracket" idea doesnt work. I could take a 3.5k item level player with the above and I would be a "9K" Player versus a 3.5K player without those things = about a 5.5k Player...
The power of those things are far too large for not having it count towards the "item level Number".
EDIT: Insignia calculation: 3x300x5=4.5k stats = about 400 more item level. NOT including the insignia "bonus" which probably trumps those stats but... now we know thats atleast another 400 stats... Which gets us closer to 11k Item Level "BIS player"
To be blunt, it was a pretty blatantly deceptive move. This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters. IL is not a measurement of character power, it is simply a deceptive marketing tool. Neverwinter is not made as something to make money in the long term, but rather as a way to make a few hundred bucks off players in the short term, who will quit within several months when they see what's actually going on and refuse to shell out even more money to stay competitive.
This is a fast and dirty turnover fast food version of an mmo than leans on that d&d license for perceived credibility. The PvP has amazing potential that likely, sadly, will never be realized.
The funny thing is that if NWO could be emulated, a PvP emulation made by and for players would quickly dwarf the mmo in terms of player population.
"To be blunt, it was a pretty blatantly deceptive move. This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters. IL is not a measurement of character power, it is simply a deceptive marketing tool."
Yup just like i said
So true....
"GS was replaced by IL in order to make things look more even between characters when the reality is that the gear differential is more out of balance than ever."
"This game entirely lacks any kind of measurement or ability to quickly compare power between characters."
"Neverwinter is not made as something to make money in the long term, but rather as a way to make a few hundred bucks off players in the short term"
"The funny thing is that if NWO could be emulated, a PvP emulation made by and for players would quickly dwarf the mmo in terms of player population."
That last point about a "private server" has already been buzzing around for about a year. People claim they could do it, but dont want to spend the work to have it shut down by PWE or Cryptic, kinda like that private WOW server that had like 100k players on it...
However I DO agree with you @elrondknight,
It IS a catch 22 and HOPEFULLY the developers will see this and invest into PVP because the players have LONG since been investing and many cant do it anymore. Its why players have left.
If they needed "numbers" to justify investing in PVP they HAD it and let it slip. it should be VERY easy to take data about PVP and PVPERs to the "higher ups" and justify spending (DEV time) on PVP.
I would almost bet a 1:1 correlation in PVP : Profits.
"The problem is: it's a catch 22 situation. The devs won't invest the resources to fix PvP without more population. The players won't PvP in the current broken situation. And what could be the best PvP on the intrawebz dies, not with a bang but with a whimper. If only we had a "simple solution" that drastically increased the PvP population over the course of a weekend... or, y'know, we could just make solo Q' permanent. "
A pvp-centric fresh start server (like archage did) that allowed zero transfer of any current account would produce near instant results I think.
Like this: http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?300855-ArcheAge-Revelation-Fresh-Start-Server-FAQ
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1229553/offcial-feedback-thread-changes-to-item-level-system
Iyon the Dark
For example, just prior to mod six you could roll a TIGHT TR, and between stealth and ITC, you could at least hold back node for a long time against a superior geared player of equal skill, and could clear that node of the better geared player if you had superior skills. Likewise CW. The only issue came at about page 30 of the leaderboard where you start getting tougher and tougher matches. A pay ceiling existing at about page ten. Where most folks were about equally skilled with solid builds and those who paid out continued to climb. I was fine with that.
Usually challenging matches every match until you get to high up the ladder and lose a few in a row until you started getting more equal competition again via matchmaking. The big difference between then and now being low PvP population and vastly increased gear gap, now. Two problems that feed each other to the death of NWO PvP.
Make gear differential have less of an impact on match results and PvP population will grow.
The solutions proposed in this thread are key. I would ad that in addition to making gear less important, a less time/money expensive way to get new gear would go a long way.
The VIP system is really pretty sweet but something more is called for. Like a PvP subscription (whatever you wanna name it) that costs a little more but offers more for PvP players. Mind you, when I say PvP I mean domination. It is and always has been the only really strong PvP game that NWO has ever had.