You are correct and that what I was aiming at with my latest response. I think forcing rainbows generates more equality and indirect normalization of classes. However Cryptic might want to pick their battles in what they limit. They cannot put "you cannot queue with your same-class friends anymore" in a bullet point. Honestly, I don't think it helps balance solo and duo queues that much because of the gear difference. What I'm trying to say is I understand Cryptic's point of view and you'd need a better argument . You just listed 4 different classes that are 'op' and 'troll'. Is 2x GF that much better than GF and TR? Is 2 HRs that much better than having a TR and DC? What about the team with the oppressor CW to steal nodes?
I guess you can make the argument that it future-proofs class balance in case Cryptic screws up again and makes a singular class overpowered compared to everyone else. However, to counter me agreeing with you, I have to bring up the argument that forcing rainbows forces longer queues and fewer matches.
What I've attempted to explain and either failed at or people fail to understand is that forcing rainbows potentially partially corrects the gear gap issue. I'll try my hand at explaining it, yet again:
The Queue system works off of ELO. ELO is based off of the wins you garner and losses you incur. The problem with making this a matchmaking system is twofold. Firstly it's based off of a ranking system made for Chess players. Therefore it is trying to incorporate a similar style of win/loss against players of similar ELO. Secondarily, in order for it to work as properly as it can you need a LOT of PVPers playing A LOT of matches. The whole reason we're having this discussion is because PVP is imbalanced so a lot of players are NOT playing PVP.
What happens because of this matchmaking system combined with a low pool of players is that you wildly jump around on the leaderboard thus making ELO completely useless and a horrible indicator of your actual skill level and item level. Thus your team may lose one match and even though you're the top GF or HR on the server you'll be on page 890 after that match.
Now let's say you're a really high IL GF queuing with your friend who is also a really high IL GF. Lets say you both just lost matches individually and are both really low down on the ELO scoreboard. Now you get matched against pugs with 2K IL. The 2 of you can smoke their whole team. This can happen even if you Queue separately in Solo Q and does so fairly frequently. ELO is completely useless and 2 high IL toons of the same class wind up on the same team.
Now let's try this with my "forced rainbow" concept. You can't Q together, so if you Q at the same time you will 100% get put on opposite teams. Now both teams are matched evenly... win/win. Solo Q is the same way. You literally, with one flip of the switch, just balanced a match by default without even addressing the high IL vs low IL issue. You make leaps and bounds by this method because now each team will get a high IL toon or at least not face 2 high IL toons of the same OP class on the other team.
If you begin to examine it this way you'll begin to see the various ways that matchmaking is made much better by making all Queues rainbow only.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
You specifically used 2 high item level GFs as an example. What if the friends were a Trickster Rogue and a Guardian Fighter? Forced rainbows thus fail and these 2 friends are on one side. You end up in the same exact scenario with imbalanced matches.
Unless you're telling me you've datamined matches and have a high correlation of players with high item level who are of the same class queueing together, I fail to see the latest argument's points. Perhaps someone else can read it and comment since maybe I'm the only one not getting the point?
You specifically used 2 high item level GFs as an example. What if the friends were a Trickster Rogue and a Guardian Fighter? Forced rainbows thus fail and these 2 friends are on one side. You end up in the same exact scenario with imbalanced matches.
Unless you're telling me you've datamined matches and have a high correlation of players with high item level who are of the same class queueing together, I fail to see the latest argument's points. Perhaps someone else can read it and comment since maybe I'm the only one not getting the point?
Of course this won't prevent two high IL toons that are different classes from being on the same team. Have you been reading what I've posted? What this whole post is about? I've told you it was a "partial fix" please mate, don't levy things on me that I've not said nor will I say.
This won't 100% fix PVP, I've never stated it will, it's a bit exasperating that people seem to think that's what I'm getting at. I get a little frustrated when people won't think for themselves about my posts. If you're unable to infer the results of the changes I've proposed I can't think for you.
Asking me to datamine is just obnoxious. That's precisely why I said "try it for a week" so that the DEVS can datamine. I have played thousands of matches of PVP since ELO was introduced, since 2 of a class was forced, and since solo PVP trials began. I am using those experiences here, to describe what should be common sensical for those who play a lot of PVP. If you disagree, fair game, however the only way to know if my suggestion works is to try it and get the stats. In theory, it works perfectly. The devs I've talked to about ELO and matchmaking I think would find this true if they examined it and/or instituted a trial.
That is literally all I can tell you, the rest you'll have to think out for yourself.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Personally I think this should be taken a step further to a "Rainbow of Guilds" in the solo queues - in other words, members of the same guild should NOT be on the same team in the solo queue to keep people from somehow synchronizing things so they can get a full guild premade into the solo queue.
Personally I think this should be taken a step further to a "Rainbow of Guilds" in the solo queues - in other words, members of the same guild should NOT be on the same team in the solo queue to keep people from somehow synchronizing things so they can get a full guild premade into the solo queue.
wouldn't work as you have alliances- guild groups but not in the same guild with different names but same guild group , also while farming black ice in icewind pass i've seen lots and lots of people forming 4k groups to farm in premades made up of random's queue sinking posted in zone chat.
The idea that friends of the same class can't play with each other has come up a couple times now. Every account comes with 2 free character slots.
This is one of the worst arguments. Character slots are dirt cheap, gearing up characters however is time-consuming and expensive. If this was 2013 and I was getting 1-5 million diamonds per Castle Never run depending on whether the Trickster Rogue mainhand weapon dropped, I'd understand it more.
(Yes newbies, there was a time when running PVE was actually worth it)
+1
I have done a lot of grinding, spent countless hours playing, and payed a lot of money to get my main character to 4.3k and keep her up to date. I have never brought a single alt of mine to above 2.2k because in order to keep my main updated for pvp, I poured everything into my main. I know some people do have multaple geared alts but that is no easy feat. Some people don't enjoy playing other classes and not everyone has an alt army nor should that be a requirment to be able to play alongside a freind with your class. Its harder to get an alt geared for pvp than it is for pve as well since you need a lot more gear to fight other geared people in pvp than you need for holding your own in pve. Not to mention the time needed to get boons or earn other time gated benifits on each character and keep up with a mountain of dailies, invoking, and everything else. It is getting harder to gear up alts not easier as the list of items you need just keeps getting longer and items you already have often become outdated and need to be replaced, something that is rarely cheep to do. Rewards you get from playing the game are also in the toilet right now as well so raising the money in game for alts is a ridiculous amount of effort if you did not already have the AD or pay an additonal buttload of money on top of the expenses of your main.
I understand that pvp needs to be improved and I am doing my part to offer sugestions on how to do so alongside the other people on this thread but completly banning 2 of the same class and forcing rainbow comps in all forms of 5vs5 pvp is not a good solution. Bigger team sized pvp types are almost dead right now and unless that changes, cannot provide a resonable outlet for those wanting to que in with a freind of their same class either.
While I sympathize with your plight I don't think it's a strong argument. For example if you main a DC, a GF, or a Pally and your friend does as well you won't Queue for PVE most likely because you'll sacrifice DPS for the group with too many tanks or heals (ofc there are discussions that could be had about DCs right now because of AA but that is only because AA spam is OP in PVE).
What I mean is, you already play a game that limits, by Queue, classes both in PVE and PVP. This is intended because the content is best built for a Tank, healer, DPS setup. It is variation that gives the game dimension. PVP is the same, when you allow two of a class you then potentially moot out the other team because of overstacking specific abilities.
Another way of looking at it is the Queue already limits you, if you have 2 friends who play TR and you do as well, you can't all play together. So one of you must play a different class or simply Queue separately. Simply put, there is a reason class stacking is limited. The devs recognize it and PVPers do as well. It's pretty plain and I believe that sacrificing game balancing for the sake of a few individuals who refuse to Queue without their same class friend is not appropriate.
Priority must be given to balance first, then to requests for QOL improvements, like playing with friends of the same class. In this instance balance is to limit the Q to rainbows imho.
While it is true the game already has some limits, the forced rainbow que for all 5vs5 is still a one sided approach and clashes pretty hard with the interests of many pvpers. That said, the devs probably did not go far enough with their original decision to limit classes, they could go a little further and still make things more balanced but not pull the rug out from under those who did not invest double what it took to get just one good character. The issue is one of how far can you go before you miss the middle ground sweet spot and go too much towards one side at the expense of the so called "few" pvp players who like to go with friends that share their class. Not a lot of people can afford to have multiple updated and geared pvp-able alts, especially nowadays. Blocking X3 or more of a class is less of an issue because you can take one of them at a time and still get to pvp with them both. Do you not understand the difference between having to take a smaller group of freinds at a time but still being able to play alongside them and being permanently separated from certain friends in pvp? The issue isn't whether or not you can take ALL your friends with you EVERY single match or not regardless of class, its whether you can take them with you EVER.
I also question just how much of an aid this rainbow que would really be to class balance when the issue is more with the classes themselves not being properly balanced + the massive gear gap. The rainbow que might be one way to help with balance but it is hardly the only way to improve pvp or the only way to improve balance and other methods don't come with as high of a cost as this one.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Personally I think this should be taken a step further to a "Rainbow of Guilds" in the solo queues - in other words, members of the same guild should NOT be on the same team in the solo queue to keep people from somehow synchronizing things so they can get a full guild premade into the solo queue.
This is a great way to fix the solo que. I will mention that it does not block premades from members of different guilds but it would help a ton since most mixed guild premades have at least 2 people from the same guild in them and most have more from the same guild than that.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
In solo queue, if i got it right, the matchmaking would force rainbow composition. In mixed queue, basically playing "with friends" would be sacrificed to achieve balance--->you can still for a premade group BUT only inside the rainbow rule = no class stacking. And you would then be free to play with any group composition in dungeons, if you want to play with friends who play your same class.
I'd add this: if the game would be changed to be more "alt-friendly", then it would be easier to play multiple classes at an acceptable level/ competivive level, and so friends would be able to still play together in a raimbow premade, just switching to alts.
the request to change Q was made hundreds of time and I don't remeber any dev response to it.
ppl underestimate the difference in claesses and players now. BIS player from top guild can eliminate the all other team in few sec, its not only premade that kill PVP.
PVP Q will put any player vs any player or team, i assume it because very few like to play PVP now. to slove this they need to create motivation for players to try PVP, and its not only Q adjusments. (but it is a must) campign, rewards, more options to trade glory etc.
they also need to bring the old system were 2 matches with no win but with caps are enough to complete the conqueror shards, so more players will try PVP to get the guild level up even if they know they have no chance of winning.
Comments
The Queue system works off of ELO. ELO is based off of the wins you garner and losses you incur. The problem with making this a matchmaking system is twofold. Firstly it's based off of a ranking system made for Chess players. Therefore it is trying to incorporate a similar style of win/loss against players of similar ELO. Secondarily, in order for it to work as properly as it can you need a LOT of PVPers playing A LOT of matches. The whole reason we're having this discussion is because PVP is imbalanced so a lot of players are NOT playing PVP.
What happens because of this matchmaking system combined with a low pool of players is that you wildly jump around on the leaderboard thus making ELO completely useless and a horrible indicator of your actual skill level and item level. Thus your team may lose one match and even though you're the top GF or HR on the server you'll be on page 890 after that match.
Now let's say you're a really high IL GF queuing with your friend who is also a really high IL GF. Lets say you both just lost matches individually and are both really low down on the ELO scoreboard. Now you get matched against pugs with 2K IL. The 2 of you can smoke their whole team. This can happen even if you Queue separately in Solo Q and does so fairly frequently. ELO is completely useless and 2 high IL toons of the same class wind up on the same team.
Now let's try this with my "forced rainbow" concept. You can't Q together, so if you Q at the same time you will 100% get put on opposite teams. Now both teams are matched evenly... win/win. Solo Q is the same way. You literally, with one flip of the switch, just balanced a match by default without even addressing the high IL vs low IL issue. You make leaps and bounds by this method because now each team will get a high IL toon or at least not face 2 high IL toons of the same OP class on the other team.
If you begin to examine it this way you'll begin to see the various ways that matchmaking is made much better by making all Queues rainbow only.
Unless you're telling me you've datamined matches and have a high correlation of players with high item level who are of the same class queueing together, I fail to see the latest argument's points. Perhaps someone else can read it and comment since maybe I'm the only one not getting the point?
This won't 100% fix PVP, I've never stated it will, it's a bit exasperating that people seem to think that's what I'm getting at. I get a little frustrated when people won't think for themselves about my posts. If you're unable to infer the results of the changes I've proposed I can't think for you.
Asking me to datamine is just obnoxious. That's precisely why I said "try it for a week" so that the DEVS can datamine. I have played thousands of matches of PVP since ELO was introduced, since 2 of a class was forced, and since solo PVP trials began. I am using those experiences here, to describe what should be common sensical for those who play a lot of PVP. If you disagree, fair game, however the only way to know if my suggestion works is to try it and get the stats. In theory, it works perfectly. The devs I've talked to about ELO and matchmaking I think would find this true if they examined it and/or instituted a trial.
That is literally all I can tell you, the rest you'll have to think out for yourself.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
While it is true the game already has some limits, the forced rainbow que for all 5vs5 is still a one sided approach and clashes pretty hard with the interests of many pvpers. That said, the devs probably did not go far enough with their original decision to limit classes, they could go a little further and still make things more balanced but not pull the rug out from under those who did not invest double what it took to get just one good character. The issue is one of how far can you go before you miss the middle ground sweet spot and go too much towards one side at the expense of the so called "few" pvp players who like to go with friends that share their class. Not a lot of people can afford to have multiple updated and geared pvp-able alts, especially nowadays. Blocking X3 or more of a class is less of an issue because you can take one of them at a time and still get to pvp with them both. Do you not understand the difference between having to take a smaller group of freinds at a time but still being able to play alongside them and being permanently separated from certain friends in pvp? The issue isn't whether or not you can take ALL your friends with you EVERY single match or not regardless of class, its whether you can take them with you EVER.
I also question just how much of an aid this rainbow que would really be to class balance when the issue is more with the classes themselves not being properly balanced + the massive gear gap. The rainbow que might be one way to help with balance but it is hardly the only way to improve pvp or the only way to improve balance and other methods don't come with as high of a cost as this one.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
In mixed queue, basically playing "with friends" would be sacrificed to achieve balance--->you can still for a premade group BUT only inside the rainbow rule = no class stacking.
And you would then be free to play with any group composition in dungeons, if you want to play with friends who play your same class.
I'd add this: if the game would be changed to be more "alt-friendly", then it would be easier to play multiple classes at an acceptable level/ competivive level, and so friends would be able to still play together in a raimbow premade, just switching to alts.
ppl underestimate the difference in claesses and players now.
BIS player from top guild can eliminate the all other team in few sec, its not only premade that kill PVP.
PVP Q will put any player vs any player or team, i assume it because very few like to play PVP now.
to slove this they need to create motivation for players to try PVP, and its not only Q adjusments. (but it is a must)
campign, rewards, more options to trade glory etc.
they also need to bring the old system were 2 matches with no win but with caps are enough to complete the conqueror shards, so more players will try PVP to get the guild level up even if they know they have no chance of winning.