Sea of Moving Ice Preview Patch Notes: NW.70.20161017a.1

asterdahl

darkstarrfoff said:

So... How, exactly, is that not the intended function?​​

I want to point out that I did not say anything to the effect of Divine Protector preventing your entire party from dying was not working as intended. I stated that its effect was over the top.

Amenar correctly stated the original intent of Divine Protector. However, we are re-examining the intent of some powers. Those powers that grant completely uncontested invulnerability are on our radar. There is an understandable desire among many for new, exciting, challenging content.

And while I understand that it may be frustrating to see some components of very strong powers nerfed as opposed to content being built to be hard even with those powers, in some cases it would be very destructive to the game overall to balance around those powers or implement heavy-handed solutions like some powers being ignored by certain "ultimate" abilities.

Divine Protector was built under a few pretenses. 1) It was a daily which would not be available too frequently, at the time AP gain was significantly lower than it is now. 2) Most of our challenging content involved throwing hordes of enemies at adventurers, if you died to divine protector, there was likely a dozen auto attack swings coming at you that would kill you after soulforged, and soon your party would follow.

With the boss fights in Fangbreaker Island and Svardborg we feel like we've been able to strike a much better cadence and pacing, where the boss themselves provides the interesting mechanics and challenges, and there are moments between attacks to focus on DPS, or healing, or preparing for the next mechanic. Thus, abilities that grant invulnerability become exceptionally more powerful as you can time these to completely circumvent mechanics and then because there are not dozens of enemies swinging at you, you won't be immediately killed afterward.

So, instead of pouring dozens of adds into every boss fight, we're examining these abilities, and hopefully in the end we'll be able to provide a more enjoyable experience as a result.

darkstarrfoff

asterdahl said:

darkstarrfoff said:

So... How, exactly, is that not the intended function?​​

I want to point out that I did not say anything to the effect of Divine Protector preventing your entire party from dying was not working as intended. I stated that its effect was over the top.

Amenar correctly stated the original intent of Divine Protector. However, we are re-examining the intent of some powers. Those powers that grant completely uncontested invulnerability are on our radar. There is an understandable desire among many for new, exciting, challenging content.

And while I understand that it may be frustrating to see some components of very strong powers nerfed as opposed to content being built to be hard even with those powers, in some cases it would be very destructive to the game overall to balance around those powers or implement heavy-handed solutions like some powers being ignored by certain "ultimate" abilities.

Divine Protector was built under a few pretenses. 1) It was a daily which would not be available too frequently, at the time AP gain was significantly lower than it is now. 2) Most of our challenging content involved throwing hordes of enemies at adventurers, if you died to divine protector, there was likely a dozen auto attack swings coming at you that would kill you after soulforged, and soon your party would follow.

With the boss fights in Fangbreaker Island and Svardborg we feel like we've been able to strike a much better cadence and pacing, where the boss themselves provides the interesting mechanics and challenges, and there are moments between attacks to focus on DPS, or healing, or preparing for the next mechanic. Thus, abilities that grant invulnerability become exceptionally more powerful as you can time these to completely circumvent mechanics and then because there are not dozens of enemies swinging at you, you won't be immediately killed afterward.

So, instead of pouring dozens of adds into every boss fight, we're examining these abilities, and hopefully in the end we'll be able to provide a more enjoyable experience as a result.

Thanks for the explanation @asterdahl. It's nice to see Devs actually responding. Most of it makes sense but at the same time you didn't really answer my main point. OP dailies are mostly trash with even the post nerf DP on any OPs with a ton of recovery and AP Gain generally being the best. So, will we be getting a time extension since casting DP repeatedly requires a lot of stats while on the other hand a GF simply toggles KV on and off at will.

sorce

asterdahl said:

darkstarrfoff said:

So... How, exactly, is that not the intended function?​​

I want to point out that I did not say anything to the effect of Divine Protector preventing your entire party from dying was not working as intended. I stated that its effect was over the top.

Amenar correctly stated the original intent of Divine Protector. However, we are re-examining the intent of some powers. Those powers that grant completely uncontested invulnerability are on our radar. There is an understandable desire among many for new, exciting, challenging content.

And while I understand that it may be frustrating to see some components of very strong powers nerfed as opposed to content being built to be hard even with those powers, in some cases it would be very destructive to the game overall to balance around those powers or implement heavy-handed solutions like some powers being ignored by certain "ultimate" abilities.

Divine Protector was built under a few pretenses. 1) It was a daily which would not be available too frequently, at the time AP gain was significantly lower than it is now. 2) Most of our challenging content involved throwing hordes of enemies at adventurers, if you died to divine protector, there was likely a dozen auto attack swings coming at you that would kill you after soulforged, and soon your party would follow.

With the boss fights in Fangbreaker Island and Svardborg we feel like we've been able to strike a much better cadence and pacing, where the boss themselves provides the interesting mechanics and challenges, and there are moments between attacks to focus on DPS, or healing, or preparing for the next mechanic. Thus, abilities that grant invulnerability become exceptionally more powerful as you can time these to completely circumvent mechanics and then because there are not dozens of enemies swinging at you, you won't be immediately killed afterward.

So, instead of pouring dozens of adds into every boss fight, we're examining these abilities, and hopefully in the end we'll be able to provide a more enjoyable experience as a result.

So when are we getting a dungeon mechanic that focuses on hoards of minions? You took them all away (I agree, it was over kill and it made all fights the same), and now you have none. As a CW, I have nothing to control in any boss situation. You've gone from one extreme to the other.

You state challenging content, however once the mechanics are learnt, a 3 year old could do them. Bring back the hoards of mobs please.

weaver936

How about the middle part of FBI? I love CW's there . But it's good that it can be done without CW... otherwise.. we really would have trouble finding groups.

sorce

weaver936 said:

How about the middle part of FBI? I love CW's there .

That's literally the only place my CW shines throughout the dungeons. And it's a middle bit to get from one boss to another...

emilemo

asterdahl said:

A vast majority of the changes to Paladin's powers are actually buffs. We've made a number of abilities more usable. We'd like players to really give Absolution a try if they're just looking for more survivability. For those having trouble casting it on themselves when with party members, please keep in mind if you are targeting an enemy in front of you, you'll cast it on yourself. So give that a try and please continue to send your feedback.

I'll make a preview forum thread today to discuss the changes and talk about why we made them, but essentially, we'd like to remove the concept of invulnerability and completely ignoring mechanics as a result. But we'd like Paladin to continue to be a strong option for tanking.

Man, you seem like a nice guy and I dont know if posting here means you drew short stick but I do appreciate your posts and I believe every other player does. That being said - what buffs? Sanctuary to 80%? You know well enough that Sanctuary is not like the Guardian Fighter shied so its practically just a CC protection. Sacred Weapon buff? Who even uses that? Now if you had buffed Bane to reduce enemy damage by a total of 40% Id call that useful. Circle of Power giving DR to allies? Only if they stand near the tank where some big aoe will wipe them out regardless of the Circle. Absolution? Slot it over what? Slot it over Wrath - unlikely. Slot it over Bane? - unlikely. Slot it over useless BO - maybe.. but we lose the taunt.


Here is a very good and simple solution if you truly want the Paladin to continue being a strong option for tanking - keep Sanctuary at 60% and make it a separate layer of protection like the GF shield. That way a Paladin tank's ability to survive big hits will depend on the player's ability to anticipate said hits and act accordingly. I think that's fair, after all Paladins cant do anything while blocking so a separate layer of DR on Sanctuary is justified especially now upon your removal of our 1 unique tanking ability (BO)

darthpotater

asterdahl said:

Amenar correctly stated the original intent of Divine Protector. However, we are re-examining the intent of some powers. Those powers that grant completely uncontested invulnerability are on our radar. There is an understandable desire among many for new, exciting, challenging content.

Yes yes but dont forget that those people want good rewards too... for the challenging content huh! Well thats another discussion.

The damage buff of circle of power is good news but I think is not working. And are you considering Sanctuary giving another layer of DR? That would solve lots of problems I think. Also there are still lots of powers not very usefull like Banishment, Sacred weapon.

Bow of Enmity should be multitarget (up to 5)

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thefabricant

@asterdahl you may want to take a look at:

michela123 said:

DC's daily Anointed Army on Preview now grants 4 hits of total damage immunity (0 damage taken) and the balls don't expire anymore after taking damage.

Since I don't think this is intended...

Also:

Feedback: The purpose of the Controller.

Whilst I understand why you switched from add heavy dungeons to dungeons without adds, by going to the extreme opposite, you have effectively destroyed the role of the controller. My suggestion is instead of having 3 non add heavy bosses or 3 add heavy bosses, have 1 or 2 with adds and 1 or 2 without. This brings the role of the controller back into play without exclusively catering towards them. As someone who mains Control Wizard, the role of control kind of seems dead right now and the only way for my class to shine is by fulfilling secondary roles, like DPS or support.

armadeonx

thefabricant said:

@asterdahl you may want to take a look at:

michela123 said:

DC's daily Anointed Army on Preview now grants 4 hits of total damage immunity (0 damage taken) and the balls don't expire anymore after taking damage.

Since I don't think this is intended...

Also:

Feedback: The purpose of the Controller.

Whilst I understand why you switched from add heavy dungeons to dungeons without adds, by going to the extreme opposite, you have effectively destroyed the role of the controller. My suggestion is instead of having 3 non add heavy bosses or 3 add heavy bosses, have 1 or 2 with adds and 1 or 2 without. This brings the role of the controller back into play without exclusively catering towards them. As someone who mains Control Wizard, the role of control kind of seems dead right now and the only way for my class to shine is by fulfilling secondary roles, like DPS or support.

I love adds, the more the merrier - big fights that need everyone doing their bit. Control, dps, buffs & debuffs. Tanks drawing a mob, TR's & CW's stunning or freezing, GWF's swinging wide arcs of death etc. Many of the skills for pretty much ALL classes are built around tackling mobs and big fights like that are FUN. I miss that from the old dungeons more than anything else.

On the Pally thing, my personal opinion is that SoF should get a slight buff (survival mode) and DP should be reworked into a de/buff daily. A good de/buff would give them a place in parties.

razor4lpha

asterdahl said:

A vast majority of the changes to Paladin's powers are actually buffs. We've made a number of abilities more usable. We'd like players to really give Absolution a try if they're just looking for more survivability. For those having trouble casting it on themselves when with party members, please keep in mind if you are targeting an enemy in front of you, you'll cast it on yourself. So give that a try and please continue to send your feedback.

I'll make a preview forum thread today to discuss the changes and talk about why we made them, but essentially, we'd like to remove the concept of invulnerability and completely ignoring mechanics as a result. But we'd like Paladin to continue to be a strong option for tanking.

Personally I don't buy it, you made all of those skills to add DR on top of your actually existing, and that caps on 80% for PvE:
- Sanctuary with +80% only makes sense to lower ones, but you can't cast anything while using it, nor you get control immunity (Where Guard Stance does give control immunity and a second layer damage mitigation effect over your DR% that can reduce the incoming hits from your front by 96% if you have DR of 80% - although I know that it only adds it to your front side, sanctuary is still pretty useless)
- Absolution does the same +50% DR, and a small shield (50%) - annoyance that you have to make sure you dont accidentally target someone else, when you need it - like when everybody is hugging bosses or running around to save their lives.
- Vow of Enmity's casting is annoying at best with the - pretty much noone likes toggle encounters
- Binding Oath gives you shield for your HP (your current HP, not your maxHP at this moment) - but hits you for 50% HP after it expires, and damages constantly ending it early - it can be countered with Templar's Wrath for a little while, but some bosses like orcus, demogorgon, eCC and eGWD final or FBI bosses dish out so big hits so frequently you end up being one-shotted either way.
So an example:
OP has 100k HP -> 100k shield -> shield gets a hit for 150k HP -> shield vanishes and deals 50k damage to the OP -> our brand new OP has 50k HP left and 50k damage leftover from the hit itself -> OP goes down - and there are far bigger punches out there.
- Device Protector was bad for the game's health as it was 20 seconds long invulnerability, you took the wrong way and nerfed the length of it, not the effectiveness - some mentioned it back then, but you chose to dont listen, now you make a 6 second long reduction which is nowhere near the required amount or the effectiveness of Knight's Valor.
- Circle of Power gives Devotion OPs an aoe _outgoing_ heal bonus - which is a joke, but not really a good one.

Please, if you think this is still a buff - would you mind to tell why are they are buffs? Also would you mind explaining how we supposed to stay alive around bosses that do hits in the 500k-1.5M million range every few seconds - even with a decent healer?

emilemo

razor4lpha said:

asterdahl said:

A vast majority of the changes to Paladin's powers are actually buffs. We've made a number of abilities more usable. We'd like players to really give Absolution a try if they're just looking for more survivability. For those having trouble casting it on themselves when with party members, please keep in mind if you are targeting an enemy in front of you, you'll cast it on yourself. So give that a try and please continue to send your feedback.

I'll make a preview forum thread today to discuss the changes and talk about why we made them, but essentially, we'd like to remove the concept of invulnerability and completely ignoring mechanics as a result. But we'd like Paladin to continue to be a strong option for tanking.

Personally I don't buy it, you made all of those skills to add DR on top of your actually existing, and that caps on 80% for PvE:
- Sanctuary with +80% only makes sense to lower ones, but you can't cast anything while using it, nor you get control immunity (Where Guard Stance does give control immunity and a second layer damage mitigation effect over your DR% that can reduce the incoming hits from your front by 96% if you have DR of 80% - although I know that it only adds it to your front side, sanctuary is still pretty useless)
- Absolution does the same +50% DR, and a small shield (50%) - annoyance that you have to make sure you dont accidentally target someone else, when you need it - like when everybody is hugging bosses or running around to save their lives.
- Vow of Enmity's casting is annoying at best with the - pretty much noone likes toggle encounters
- Binding Oath gives you shield for your HP (your current HP, not your maxHP at this moment) - but hits you for 50% HP after it expires, and damages constantly ending it early - it can be countered with Templar's Wrath for a little while, but some bosses like orcus, demogorgon, eCC and eGWD final or FBI bosses dish out so big hits so frequently you end up being one-shotted either way.
So an example:
OP has 100k HP -> 100k shield -> shield gets a hit for 150k HP -> shield vanishes and deals 50k damage to the OP -> our brand new OP has 50k HP left and 50k damage leftover from the hit itself -> OP goes down - and there are far bigger punches out there.
- Device Protector was bad for the game's health as it was 20 seconds long invulnerability, you took the wrong way and nerfed the length of it, not the effectiveness - some mentioned it back then, but you chose to dont listen, now you make a 6 second long reduction which is nowhere near the required amount or the effectiveness of Knight's Valor.
- Circle of Power gives Devotion OPs an aoe _outgoing_ heal bonus - which is a joke, but not really a good one.

Please, if you think this is still a buff - would you mind to tell why are they are buffs? Also would you mind explaining how we supposed to stay alive around bosses that do hits in the 500k-1.5M million range every few seconds - even with a decent healer?

All of this ^

Ive been repeating the same things over several posts and still no response..

armadeonx

All true and as others have stated, most geared OP's only use BO on the actual boss fights - The real issue for the OP is that it has been struggling to find a place in parties for a long time.

Even when DP was at 20 secs, geared parties wanted a GF because buffs were more important. A good DC plus KV on the GF meant even a 20 sec full bubble wasn't even needed. The bubbledin was only welcome in low geared teams that needed survival more than anything else.

My OP can only get into teams by pugging now - or in edemo where they can't find a 2nd GF.

@asterdahl is saying they've improved buffs but I only see one that'll make any difference to the team (not the OP) which is the power & defence boost from CoP. I get that one skill shouldn't render a class immortal but the OP cannot dodge and cannot run, they have to stand there and take it - as such a combination of the right skills must enable them to do just that. Can I ask if the devs have actually tested the BO change against Orcus themselves? I'd really like to know how they performed.

At the very least, they should compensate by increasing the effectiveness of Aura of Truth & Aura of Protection, as the only way to successfully get through a fight like that is to reduce the damage output of the bosses so that a combination of auras, encounters & at-wills result in survivability for all those 2k - 2.5k pallies trying to run ETOS & EGWD.

Most money comes from newer players and the game needs to support them.

emilemo

To add sth to this whole Paladin mess. Even with the way BO is on Live right now, sometimes Orcus can execute a sudden kill. Be it some lag, or a bug or whatever Orcus pierces and kills thru current Live Binding Oath sometimes. The proposed BO change will actually save me some frustration. Currently I have no problems tanking him except for when the above happens at which point the run most likely fails for me and that leads to some frustrations. With the change in effect I wont even enter CN so I'll be effectively spared any possible frustration. Way to go thinking about us players devs. Keep up the good work.

bonnine

asterdahl said:

thefabricant said:

asterdahl said:

cromejohnsen said:

so CS adds another 40% damage on top of whatever i already dealt to the enemy? You sure you got it right this time? Because on live server the GF dealt way more dmg ( up to 70 mill based on party member initial 14 million hit).

The issue was that damage enhancing powers on the players affected by the commander's strike buff were actually enhancing the buff. This is now resolved, so you won't see commander's strike creating multi million damage hits out of hits that should have only been in the tens of thousands now.

The Tyrannical Curse debuff has only been working like that buff since what...Mod 4 @asterdahl, I think it is time it was fixed.

More patch note previews for you:

Asterdahl said:

Resolved an issue wherein the damage increasing effect of Tyrannical Curse would scale with the player's power. The effect now increases the damage affected enemies take by 20% consistently as indicated in the daily power.

i hope sw will get some balance changes after you fix TC, without it we will do less than half of other strikers dmg

greyhawk

In mod 10 I still see 'looking for GF' in ally chat. Not ' looking for tank'. Granted, groups being made is at an all time low due to the key debacle, and our alliance - along with MOST alliances -dieing, but still...

I main a GF, and I hate what's happened to OPs! Any group being formed should want a tank, not one specific class over another one. These changes just sound like they'll further enforce that mentality.

Make OP tanks viable!

And make some add heavy fights, so controllers like @thefabricant have more uses. Not that it'll matter soon...

arcanjo86

emilemo said:

To add sth to this whole Paladin mess. Even with the way BO is on Live right now, sometimes Orcus can execute a sudden kill. Be it some lag, or a bug or whatever Orcus pierces and kills thru current Live Binding Oath sometimes. The proposed BO change will actually save me some frustration. Currently I have no problems tanking him except for when the above happens at which point the run most likely fails for me and that leads to some frustrations. With the change in effect I wont even enter CN so I'll be effectively spared any possible frustration. Way to go thinking about us players devs. Keep up the good work.

I have op protection, justice build with aura gifts(light feats tree) , with 60%+ recharge speed and i can keep up the bo and templar wrath so orcus dont one shot me + aura of protection+aura of wisdom and bane for debuff, if i pass to the phase to when orcus raises his arms i have bo ready,then use divine protector(if i get into a good team i only use divine judgement) and use sanctuary (bads of luck is when it bugs), and move away, and keep using bane on him so he doesnt hits party members.

ps: im on a sh 20 guild r10 stables +8k defence and using +4 sudden defence ring and augment pet, i use that on live

emilemo

arcanjo86 said:

emilemo said:

To add sth to this whole Paladin mess. Even with the way BO is on Live right now, sometimes Orcus can execute a sudden kill. Be it some lag, or a bug or whatever Orcus pierces and kills thru current Live Binding Oath sometimes. The proposed BO change will actually save me some frustration. Currently I have no problems tanking him except for when the above happens at which point the run most likely fails for me and that leads to some frustrations. With the change in effect I wont even enter CN so I'll be effectively spared any possible frustration. Way to go thinking about us players devs. Keep up the good work.

I have op protection, justice build with aura gifts(light feats tree) , with 60%+ recharge speed and i can keep up the bo and templar wrath so orcus dont one shot me + aura of protection+aura of wisdom and bane for debuff, if i pass to the phase to when orcus raises his arms i have bo ready,then use divine protector(if i get into a good team i only use divine judgement) and use sanctuary (bads of luck is when it bugs), and move away, and keep using bane on him so he doesnt hits party members.

ps: im on a sh 20 guild r10 stables +8k defence and using +4 sudden defence ring and augment pet, i use that on live

Im in a much less developed guild but my toon itself is quite geared so if the run is smooth ( no lag) I have no problem with Orcus. In reality every time I have died to him some lag has been present resulting in either a slow activation of a skill or a skill glitch - animation is visible the skill doesnt fire at all. Bottom line my BO can be perma, my DP can be almost perma but pretty soon that wont matter so meh

shadowgod244

if your fixing the pet debuffs can you fix them to actually apply them as stated instead of a chance e.g drake

hastur905

If you made BO work like Wrath, adding 300% of HP this also may allow us to tank and wouldn't require a rework of sanctuary, which as most have said is useless except for CC. Also this may address the many many issues with many of the class powers like circle etc.

rayrdan

etelgrin said:

Asterdahl said:

Resolved an issue wherein the damage increasing effect of Tyrannical Curse would scale with the player's power. The effect now increases the damage affected enemies take by 20% consistently as indicated in the daily power.

Oww and my pure power build goes to trash with this but I felt this coming. Could we get fix for SW artifact offhand feature regarding Borrowed Time cause it doesn't grant deflection since the class balance was done and as it is I still see these as nerf.

and since we are here, that bonus was designed to work with 10 stacks not 30.
15% free deflect thanks to a off hand bonus is out of whack

beckylunatic

Idris, Mad Dragon, Spellplague, and Dread Vault all included final fights in which controllers were at one time extremely relevant.

Perhaps their reworks should strive to preserve a lot of their old meta.

nightranger7477

@asterdahl are you still planning on making a separate thread to discuss the OP changes? If so where is it located? Also could you please describe in detail how these changes equate to buffs for the paladin class. Because as a Paladin player from the day the class was released in mod 6 I really don't understand how you can possibly call what has been done a buff to the paladin class, I really just want you to tell us what role in endgame content do you see for our class, because it seems very confusing what has been done. And I am not very hopeful by what I have seen lately that these changes will be positive at all.

bitt3rnightmar3

beckylunatic said:

Idris, Mad Dragon, Spellplague, and Dread Vault all included final fights in which controllers were at one time extremely relevant.

Perhaps their reworks should strive to preserve a lot of their old meta.

I should hope so. I'm holding out every day for an announcement that epic dungeons are coming back.

d4rkh0rs3

@asterdahl

Thank you for considering the removal of abilities granting partial or complete damage immunity. This is long overdue and something I mentioned many times in the past. Complete damage immunity has no place in Neverwinter.

Please consider adding a cooldown and base limit to lifesteal, with the base limit affected by life steal severity. Lifesteal is crazy OP even with a 10% chance when party buffs are significant--I can often full heal 170k HP from a single at-will. This would (re)introduce a healer role in parties.

d4rkh0rs3

@asterdahl

Considering Binding Oath now provides a shield, which I interpret as a separate layer of DR, what is the shield DR value? Is it 80%? Even if it is 80%, the shield value being equal to 100% of the host Paladin's hit points is weak. The shield HP valud may need to buffed.

If Paladin has 200,000 base HP (which is significant), lets assume it gets a Binding Oath shield layer of 200,000 @ 80% DR. This means the Binding Oath shield can only absorb 1 million damage before breaking: (200,000 / (1 - 0.80)). That's not good, and will not work against the majority of bosses that hit for multimillions in a single attack (or hard hitting trash mobs for that matter).

@gentlemancrush's view of Paladin survivability was based on stacking multiple DR layers / shields. This is truly unique across classes and something I would like to see adequately developed.

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tom

@asterdahl

are u planning on doing another classbalance round for sw?
since the fix on TC is like a 50% dmg nerf for us.

ty in advance