Op paladin tanks

volourn

As a bubble pally I prefer playing without haste for several reasons. First, haste + bubble pally = too easy. Secondly, I like to see if my teammates can last more than a second without bubble since dependin where we are there is usually 2-4 seconds inbetween my bubble pops'. That brings my 3rd reason. I laugh and giggle when the whining comes about how I am horrible because the bubble isn't up 100% of the time and they are dying. I'm like, hey, I'm not on the ground bleeding to death.. Let me finish with Mr. Lostmauth then I'll let ya continue. :P That has actually happened. I would be fine with bubble being banned. I don't need it. The party does. You'll be dead well before me with no bubble. Haha Much better when teammates actually appreciate it.

sundance777

I agree, the bubble is for the party not the pally, but it helps to have some DPS along for the ride For a while I had my TR set up for everything offensive and nothing much for defense and let the OP carry my through some runs. This was quicker but mindless and I found myself not running my TR much so I fixed him to be able to stay alive much better on his own and I enjoy playing him again with or without the bubble.

kemi1984

volourn said:

As a bubble pally I prefer playing without haste for several reasons. First, haste + bubble pally = too easy. Secondly, I like to see if my teammates can last more than a second without bubble since dependin where we are there is usually 2-4 seconds inbetween my bubble pops'. That brings my 3rd reason. I laugh and giggle when the whining comes about how I am horrible because the bubble isn't up 100% of the time and they are dying. I'm like, hey, I'm not on the ground bleeding to death.. Let me finish with Mr. Lostmauth then I'll let ya continue. :P That has actually happened. I would be fine with bubble being banned. I don't need it. The party does. You'll be dead well before me with no bubble. Haha Much better when teammates actually appreciate it.

If I were you, I would never use Divine Protector - this skill is broken and makes all players bad each run they're under it's effect.
Sooner than later (happens on PC now) you guys will be nerfed and than river of tears will flow when all of a sudden folks would have to avoid red (yeah that's weird right?).
Seriously, this is the most stupid skill ever invented by the devs - not the skill sorry, it's duration and how it was used to make the game a complete and utter HAMSTER.

volourn

"but it helps to have some DPS along for the ride"

Agreed. Without good DPS things cna be drawn out. I once dragged a horrible party through VT and I swear it took us over a half hour easily just to kill her. L0L It was torture. :P

armadeonx

Yeah except now your pally won't be welcome in any runs at all. If the Pally can't protect the party then it has no purpose. Better to bring a GF for the buffs & 50% DR.

I find it odd that you are amused by your own inability to protect your party - that's more of a reflection on you than them.

volourn

Uh I was protecting them. Without me the run would have been over early. You must be one of those who whine when the bubble isn't up 100% of the time even with no haste. When you are being targetd constantly with a bunch of CC - stopping you from gaining action points - you aren't gonna have bubble up 100% of the time. But I cna keep enemies focused on me. It should also be pointed out that I tend to end up #1 or #1 on the damage dealing lists when adventuring with low end parties. Comapred to when I am adventuring with top end groups where I cna go entire dungeons not killing a single enemy. L0LZ

armadeonx

ha, no I'm not m8. My DC is old school and can run without any tank at all so long as the dps is decent. My OP doesn't need bubble for self protection in T2's but when I'm playing a support role my purpose is to HELP the team, unlike your comment: "I laugh and giggle when the whining comes about how I am horrible because the bubble isn't up 100% of the time and they are dying."

If you are keeping the aggro like you say, then why is your team dying? Sure, you can blame it on them standing in the red but did you tell them that you're going to drop the bubble at times "just for a laugh"? Your whole point is "I'm super fantastic and these squishy ants are just there for my amusement". Ok CC can be an issue, depends on what you're running. In elol for example Lostmauth sends you flying a lot of the time - why is it your teams fault that the only protection they receive from you is the bubble? Sure, they need to dodge if they can see you're not getting the AP - the haste DC compensates for these interrupts - or used to.

The point is this - your team need to know what to expect so they can either play accordingly or leave if they're not up to it. If you advertise yourself as a bubble pally then the reasonable expectation is that it's up all the time barring a couple of accidents.

If they run with a GF they should know to stay out of the red & let the tank do the aggro. If they run with a pally they know they have 80% DR during all fights and focus purely on dps.

Edit: of course this is all moot now, the bubble is about to go away. GFs are receiving a buff at the same time so if you add their perma 50% group DR, that's better than anything the pally has unless he can rotate Binding Oath permanently. Nobody is going to need or want Paladins any more.

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volourn

"dodge if they can see you're not getting the AP - the haste DC compensates for these interrupts - or used to."

80% of the time in random runs there is no haste. It is just me and 3 DPS. (very rare to run Valandra with an actual group of 5 and that's my favorite dungeon). It should be clear to them after a few battles that my bubble isn't up to 100%. I even warn them if I see they aren't figuring them out.


"Your whole point is "I'm super fantastic "

Never claimed that. I'm far from the best OP. Me laughing is more about those who START whining about the bubble not being up - most people just go with it. Sure, I attract a lot of hostiles for certain classes it doesn't take much to die - I know because I have a CW as well and her defense is horrible. Blinding oath (that's the one that reflects damage and forces enemies to attack you right?) doens't seem to work properly - not all enemies attack you (me?) like they should.

Either way, the change will just mean people will adapt. It also means I likely won't help 'lower levels'. *shrug* That is what will be the difference maker - lower level 70s the 1600-1800 range will have a more difficult time. Those higher, of course, will be fine. Also, you'll likely have to run less dungeons per day because you'll have to run them slower most likely. Heh.

vaultingfrog

So I am fairly new at the game (only been playing for about 2 months) and I am rolling with my pally. This upcomming nerf is going to kill my ability to get into groups for epics. Granted a pally shouldnt be a requirement to complete any dungeon in my eyes that doesnt mean the whole class should be invalidated. Same thing shouldnt have happened to TR's from what I have read.

People love when I am around now because of the bubble. Yet I use it sparingly. If the group cant survive more than 5 seconds without it in a fight then the group itself is broken. They are taking too many chances and depending on a single player to save them from everything. Server lag is a real issue and the bubble doesnt always pop when it is told to. Also there is no reason to have 2 bubbles in a group with a DC unless you are super lazy. If you must have 2 bubbles then drop the DC because the bubbles should be able to rotate their daily between one another in major fights where it is needed.

As it stands now though from my view the pally is getting its class broken like a childs toy. There is no sense in taking away the protection a pally provides when that is what the class was designed to do in the first place. A class that was built to take damage for the party which no longer does so is just excess programing at that point.

There is a lot of issues with the class, and yes the bubble can be nerfed a bit on time but to reduce it as much as they have is killing that tree almost completely. However there is also something to be said for the players in the groups (other than the pally) being at just as much fault as well as the mechanics in the T2 areas.

No group, be it with a pally or not, should behave like they will never take damage. Even if a pally is there to save your booty from being hurt you should still avoid taking damage at all. After all a pally who stacks up DR to the roof still isnt immortal. I have been killed so many times on the scorpions because people just stand there and take it constantly. 1% of 5 million is still 50k damage. Just a little under half my health. When I have to put up with that every couple seconds I tend to die... Stupid playing is simply stupid playing.

Dungeon mechanics are also partly to blame as they can drastically screw over any group, pally or not. GWD is arguably the most difficult T2 we have at this point. Getting up to the final boss fight isnt all that difficult even without a pally but that last fight is so poorly explained first timers are just screwed. And the huge health sinks of the adds that spawn can put any group in trouble with out enough DPS. Add in that you need to tank the boss to keep the group safe (plus heals for the tank) you are left with 3 people to DPS the boss and the adds. Not an easy task for most any group. I can tell you with certainty that even with a bubble it is not a for sure thing to beat it.

The class needs work but to come on and outright say it is broken for doing what it is designed for is moronic at best.

armadeonx

Players always adjust to reality. You can't blame the DPS classes for not dodging when they don't need to - they will get used to it again pretty quickly simply because they'll have no choice.

The problem is the Pally has insufficient aggro generation & group damage reduction compared to the GF - the bubble was the only real bonus and whilst it is currently overpowered, it is the class's only real benefit. Without this, the entire oath of protection sub-class will become irrelevant & people will most likely run with a GF/Healadin combo for lower specced players and a GF/Buff (Righteous) DC for higher specced groups.

vaultingfrog

I really dont want to respec to a healadin again... that costs too much and the DPS loss is annoying for solo work. As I figured, when this update comes out the pally will be gutted and considered a lepper for PvE and PvP stuff.

But this is coming from an amateur player.

telprydain

As a Pally I’m super excited for this change. Having your class being about spamming a single power over and over is painfully dull. I look forward to using the various buff and debuffs that our class has, rather than spamming DPS to get AP faster.

And bear in mind this doesn’t just impact us – it’s going to impact every other class. DPS won’t be able to just passively stand still anymore, Clerics will need to buff/heal.
It’ll be a whole new world of having to work as a team, rather than mindlessly walk into mobs while spamming your DPS rotation.

armadeonx

Yes but how is your aggro pulling? That's the 'fly in the ointment'. Pallys need to get all the enemies hitting them & that's really tricky when you have a decent GWF or SW generating huge amounts of threat.

Currently our threat generation is pathetic. I've had GWF's pull aggro from me when I'm using binding oath + divine call + ring of charging bull. That's just ridiculous.

telprydain

I get that, but that's on them too - right? It's up to the DPS to control their own threat-level and only target threats they can eliminate/control, rather than just wading into the middle of a room and waving their swords around. The job of the tank is just to gather/kite the excess mobs, giving the control/DPS room to do their thing, and allowing them to pick targets.
Even a fully tanked up GF is going to have issues keeping threat if the GWF is just charging about without a care in the world.

A bear in mind, in the new world those DPS glass-cannons are going to have to maneuver and dodge, thereby causing breaks in their assaults and ideally giving you time to re-capture threat.

smellycat2012

What is the OP skill where the mobs are pushed away, like a DC's Sunburst? Is it a threat generation skill? Does it take importance over a GWF doing WMS/spinning strike on the mobs clustered around the OP?

telprydain

smellycat2012 said:

What is the OP skill where the mobs are pushed away, like a DC's Sunburst? Is it a threat generation skill? Does it take importance over a GWF doing WMS/spinning strike on the mobs clustered around the OP?

It’s called Relentless Avenger, and currently it’s used for battlefield mobility and because it’s (comparatively) high damage is the single best AP gain. It does also taunt, so while those mobs are thrown away, they should all come running right back.
Right now that takes priority because AP=Bubble.

In a post-bubble world I imagine it could still get used, but protection Paladins will need to be using buff encounters (rather than DPS encounters), so you’re likely to see it much, much less.
I imagine you’re likely to see it used when a paladin charges at a group who are about to gank a ranged DPS, to both protect that DPS and taunt the mob so they can draw it away. Post bubble a paladin should never use it to charge a group that are already taunted or controlled.

armadeonx

I only use it when soloing, I swap it out for binding oath in groups.

telprydain

If there is no tank and you're not using bubble it's still great for taunting groups.

manyvengeance

I find it so annoying because I end up chasing enemies all over the place, and Divine Judgment works better with stacked up enemies, also, for some classes it's annoying af to have the enemies everywhere instead of in just one place. Lol

telprydain

I agree… no DPS likes to have to chase the baddies down. But in the current environment they’d like the bubble dropping a lot less.
If we’re in a chat-party I do try to call it out before I charge so people won’t waste encounters or dallies.

armadeonx

Yeah the only time I've used it in dungeons is when it's a pug with no DC - I warn people before hand that I'll be using it for AP gain & they usually have no problem once they know why.

Of course, in a decently geared group it's not necc.

corran

I just started playing this game after a long absence, I am still level 60 from the old cap, and have a dc. I am having trouble finding a good heal build for him that includes a paragon path since I don't want to be a haste dc does anyone have a link I could use

sundance777

I just tested my current situation for the bubble last night, with a haste behind me it was popping every 4-5 seconds and I still have upgrades I can do for recovery speed and AP gain. I will be curious to see how the damage change works in actual play but I think it will be - BUBBLE ON! I did build a GF too just in case It's a lot more fun to tank with than the pally bubble.

sundance777

corran#1990 said:

I just started playing this game after a long absence, I am still level 60 from the old cap, and have a dc. I am having trouble finding a good heal build for him that includes a paragon path since I don't want to be a haste dc does anyone have a link I could use

Some build ideas online here: http://mmominds.com/tag/devoted-cleric/

armadeonx

I pugged an etos on my pally today & only 3 of us loaded. My Pally (2.6k) and 2 x GWF (a 2.9k & a 2.3k). No replacements came in so it was just the 3 of us all the way through.

Bubble was up about 2 /3rds of the time but come the end boss I knew I had to swap some things around to keep the gwf's alive due to no heals.

I ran with templars, sacred weapon & bane for encounters & auras of protection (to increase their defence) & wisdom. I didn't run BO as I wanted see how SW worked for aggro & it did very well (I also didn't want to take a huge hit myself) - and bane did a good job at speeding things up & reducing damage. I was pretty impressed with it.

When the bubble becomes less practical I'll put 4 points in aura of radiance (for threat gen) & see how that works but I think that with some experimentation Protection Pallys can finally lose the 'bubble' nickname.

I would actually like to see it replaced with something akin to the DC's Anointed Army, but I guess that's a different discussion.