im so tired of waiting, i cant even play 3 gaunt pvp without thinking i m wasting time
But you ARE wasting time..and to make you feel even more "special", NW placed you below the Event Horizon of a black hole, no matter how you struggle or whatever rate of thrust/acceleration you achieve, it will never be enough to escape. Because of time dynamics you are already "in" the black hole, you just perceive that you can escape...you are already dead and crushed in the funnel.
That's how NW rolls, they want your to perceive the carrot, never get it.
Totally valid point there....why limit a DAY. If they would run with my idea it wouldn't need a cap soft or otherwise. It wouldn't punish a 1 day player or a 7 day for an hr player. It would reward every style of player for their style. They wouldn't feel like they had to grind to get somewere, or do stuff they loath to get enough AD to stay afloat each day.
Simply put, make every activity trickle some AD in to your bank! Do a quest (not just dailies! not everyone has access to dailies, campaign based or otherwise) a small amount of AD per quest. Do a skirmish..get trickle of AD, do a dungeon the same, pair that with some actual loot at the end, that exceeds the key cost and that would be reward enough for skirmish/dungeon runners.
If the dungeoneers get bored with the limited ones there are, they can go to skirmishs or quests or pvp and STILL be getting AD for their efforts, it reduces the grind a tad from for them.
Scaleable? Totally! L10 gets x amount for a quest/skirmish/dungeon/pvp, L20+ 10% or so up to level 70. Do this and the 1 day for hours player will get the same as 7 days for 1 hr players. Do this, and all that they have offered back, but only for L70 will be scaled and offered for L20+ rather than just L70.
Cap? What cap? Do this and they may take half or more of the day to get to 24k (barring any loot etc they are trading). So they play a marathon session and exceed 24k, so what! They may not play for the next 6 days or do and exceed the 24k again, so what?! They PLAYED for it, it wasn't handed to them, they EARNED it with effort and time sink.
Do it this way and you can eliminate all those previous AD sinks they put in to drain the "excess" AD, there won't by definition be any "excess" AD, it will all be EARNED AD, the AD they earned then could be spent on rewards they earned, not dumped down some sink, no profession task should eat up AD as a material cost....it's enough it's eating rare and semi rare materials, if the crafter can craft cheaper his pass on cost will be cheaper. you get a 2fer from eliminating that sink.
Boons, why do they cost a single AD? Previously yes they used them as AD dumps, but it's not needed now, the alternate currencies( fangs and coins and motes etc.) used in the campaigns and the time sink should be plenty of cost.
The only "sink" that AD should be used in, is a material return, use AD for a pet/upgrade, buy a MoP/GMoP etc etc. Spend AD, get an item. Retool the actual cost of items while your at it. 300k for a pet upgrade..really? That's just the first tier.
Well said. Both Alex and I have been fighting hard for this and will continue to fight hard for it. My account is completely broke because of our stronghold and I have dozens of companions that need upgrading...
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)! Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
0
torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
edited October 2015
hmm.. thinking outside the box here.
what if.. we get a new server, and you're allowed to copy 10 characters over to the new server with whatever they have on them, then - leadership returns.
everyone plays on the new 10character max server, cause its the one with the new rewards and better lockbox rates and AD-discounted wondrousbazaar,boons,SH upgrade costs, etc.
if you moan about how much zen you spent on extra character slots, think about how much you made from your leadership army. =X
edit: i also think it should be 2x everything until underdark. xp, rp, ad, gems, ... everything. =X
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Well said. Both Alex and I have been fighting hard for this and will continue to fight hard for it. My account is completely broke because of our stronghold and I have dozens of companions that need upgrading...
upgrading companions? why. you dont need pets to complete any of the meager content we have in this dying game. shows how out of touch u r brah
Is there any likelihood of companion upgrade prices being lowered? 1m AD used to be achieveable with leadership earnings - now it's totally out of my reach.
Like right now, you have Dragonflight armor. Some people like the gear stats, others hate them. For example, is a +recovery +power piece REALLY BiS for a CW? Not really. But what if there was a chance that a piece with the exact same stat allocation could drop from a dragon that randomly had +crit + power? Now that's freaking sweet!
And they should make this equipment unbound to keep you motivated to run the content after you got it for yourself. It may also make some people buy Zen to convert them to AD to get the armor they are looking for.
We earn less AD now since the Leadership change, therefore all AD costs should be reduced. All AD barriers to progession, campaign costs, companion upgrade costs, you name it, should be lowered and brought into line with the earnings of the average player. This is common sense, and can only benefit the community.
Is there any likelihood of companion upgrade prices being lowered? 1m AD used to be achieveable with leadership earnings - now it's totally out of my reach.
forget about some pet upgrades, its insane SH upgrade requirements that are killing, small guild with some 10 active ppl, even if they donate every last ad they get it would take forever to upgrade anything
I really appreciate your post ironzerg: it makes sense. I see only one possible point of conflict: $. In your scenario, players can progress ideally without buying anything (or a few) at the zen market. Someone proposed to have no AD cap: this may inflate again the market to some extent. Having your proposal accepted, requires a complete analisys and rework of the zen market: currently there's no value for money in it. IMO, the critical point is the level of economical profitability of the overall concept. The current model is simply outrageous: very expensive and low value for money. You proposal makes sense if at PWE they accept to move to something different from the simple "milking cows" approach to something more sophisticated which include the "value for money" concept. The lockbox key model works as a casino: managed by a not-transparent RNG, drop trash most of the times and designed to make you lose all your money. I can buy the 3 campains IWD, Shar and DR for 150$, a ruby (50K RP!!) for 800 zen : does it worth? Don't think so.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
@rapo973 they could change the Zen Shop to carry cosmetic items and cheap keys ( < $1 each ) and they'd be getting money from me. The shop, as it stands, is all out of whack (like the Rubies you pointed out) and because of that, even items and packs that have value in game feel as overpriced and greedy as the refinement items.
A 50% price cut to things like companions, boosters, services, etc... along with a massive expansion of cosmetics (especially since we're all seeing how the SH gear looks and they have a backlog of great-looking gear and weapons from pre-mod6 that they can implement as transmutes immediately). With the three characters I'm actively playing right now, I'd be happy to drop $6-10 on each one, to get them looking the way I want right now. In a month or so, I'd probably head back to the shop and drop some more cash to tweak their look, or completely change it.
But, that only works if I'm earning cool stuff in game (and progressing my gear/characters/boons) in a tangible sense, not just grinding for millions of RP, while destitute, and getting outdated equipment in T2 dungeons. That gets toxic pretty quick and if I was still a solo player, I wouldn't be here because of it. The changes they've been making recently are definitely trending in the pro-player direction, so I have hope something like @ironzerg79 's ideas here (and elsewhere) will be strongly considered, if not implemented right-out. @asterdahl and @strumslinger definitely have inspired a lot of good will too, by giving the feedback to those of us in the forums and for fighting to get the fun back into this game.
In the end, I think this idea will be brought to those in charge and maybe even has a chance of making it into the game - and I would like to just recognize that that faith has been restored from near to nothing only a relatively few months ago. So, cheers to our Community Managers and to our devs.
Well said. Both Alex and I have been fighting hard for this and will continue to fight hard for it. My account is completely broke because of our stronghold and I have dozens of companions that need upgrading...
why you need figth? why they dont understand their game?
@rapo973 they could change the Zen Shop to carry cosmetic items and cheap keys ( < $1 each ) and they'd be getting money from me. The shop, as it stands, is all out of whack (like the Rubies you pointed out) and because of that, even items and packs that have value in game feel as overpriced and greedy as the refinement items.
A 50% price cut to things like companions, boosters, services, etc... along with a massive expansion of cosmetics (especially since we're all seeing how the SH gear looks and they have a backlog of great-looking gear and weapons from pre-mod6 that they can implement as transmutes immediately). With the three characters I'm actively playing right now, I'd be happy to drop $6-10 on each one, to get them looking the way I want right now. In a month or so, I'd probably head back to the shop and drop some more cash to tweak their look, or completely change it.
This is exactly the point: value for money. Some items could be attractive but I don't buy them because they cost too much and more. I was attracted by the blacksmith: 1200 zen to buy a blue one. I would like to have it pourple....750K AD...no way...I don't buy it.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I see only one possible point of conflict: $. In your scenario, players can progress ideally without buying anything (or a few) at the zen market.
That's exactly the point. Players should feel like they can progress without spending money. Right now, most don't...or feel like the grind to do so kills all the joy this game has for them.
In my opinion, there's an ungodly amount of money to be grabbed, if Cryptic would just reach for it.
And those ideas have been beaten to death more than a Drow caught in a Pwent bear hug.
Here's the two most obvious pots of gold that have been brought up repeatedly, but I'll continue to reiterate.
1) Player housing: Sell some stuff on the Zen market, put some drops in dungeons, make some unique pieces as rewards for achievements or event drops. The basis of the system is already there in the Foundry...and that's how you can monetize the Foundry as well. Player created content is awesome, just think outside the box here. It doesn't have to be long and involved quests. Housing IS User Generated Content, just on a small and more personal level.
2) Cosmetics: Again, beaten to death in threads like this. Players have been begging Cryptic for 2 years to let them fork over cash for more cosmetic options...and it's been widely ignored.
If it were up to me, I'd take my foot off the gas for a little bit. I'd make Module 9 the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Focus not on new maps or content, but new character options. More customization for characters, more player races, player housing, stronghold customization, and perhaps...a new paragon path for all the classes, if that includes a "top to bottom" examination of what's broken in regards to classes, with an effort made to fix it.
But...I'm becoming more and more frustrated every day. And every day I get to see on these forums, on reddit and in my own community how that frustration manifests and it's not fun at all
Thank you Ironzerg for your honest comment: I share your concerns and I'm defenitely with you. Ideed this game has the potential to generate revenues for years. It's hard for me to believe that what is so obvious and trivial for the community, it's not understood by the company. There's a huge gap abetween the players' expectations and what it's implemented: the announcement today of the new weekly sources of AD makes me fell with no hope and even fooled by the game developers.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
0
drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Once again... kudos for a beautifully worded and right on the pulse post.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Im willing to spend money, but when the amount of money required to progress just basic levels of progress is required, there really is not much hope left. No average mmo player will spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to just get boons and such .. what a joke at this point.
Im feeling even more disgruntled today then yesterday, with really no real sign of hope left at this point.
I had another long timer on my friends list quit this week, its just too much at this point.
You are totally right ironzerg79, actually i really can't understand why these changes havent done. And i'm not talnking about you'r companions example, i'm talking about everything.
I mean this is a company, you have an administration making decisions and controlling the economy (the game), and what is incredible to me, is the lackness of actions of this administration, everyone knows we need lot of changes and this administration does almost nothing, or you have to wait an eternity for a change.
The problems are on the table, it's time you people (administration) start taking actions on the problems. I mean this is not a hard problem guys, you are not designing an airplane, you only have to do an study of the market and economy (and come on is a game economy, is not the real one) and start taking decisions and making the changes.
The principal problem with this administration, they are more worried in launching new modules instead fixing the game problems, and this is totally wrong. You need to have the quality of the game as a priority.
Sorry about my english i try my best ...
0
torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
Personally I don't care about player housing.
I'd rather have real rewards for playing foundries, and real rewards for foundry authors.
Many authors working within a framework that acTUALLY rewards players would add so many hours of playable content + revitalize all players bored of playing the same dungeons/dailies.
I would like to see the preview gear screen enhanced with the ideas from its announcement thread.
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
I see only one possible point of conflict: $. In your scenario, players can progress ideally without buying anything (or a few) at the zen market.
That's exactly the point. Players should feel like they can progress without spending money. Right now, most don't...or feel like the grind to do so kills all the joy this game has for them.
In my opinion, there's an ungodly amount of money to be grabbed, if Cryptic would just reach for it.
And those ideas have been beaten to death more than a Drow caught in a Pwent bear hug.
Here's the two most obvious pots of gold that have been brought up repeatedly, but I'll continue to reiterate.
1) Player housing: Sell some stuff on the Zen market, put some drops in dungeons, make some unique pieces as rewards for achievements or event drops. The basis of the system is already there in the Foundry...and that's how you can monetize the Foundry as well. Player created content is awesome, just think outside the box here. It doesn't have to be long and involved quests. Housing IS User Generated Content, just on a small and more personal level.
2) Cosmetics: Again, beaten to death in threads like this. Players have been begging Cryptic for 2 years to let them fork over cash for more cosmetic options...and it's been widely ignored.
If it were up to me, I'd take my foot off the gas for a little bit. I'd make Module 9 the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Focus not on new maps or content, but new character options. More customization for characters, more player races, player housing, stronghold customization, and perhaps...a new paragon path for all the classes, if that includes a "top to bottom" examination of what's broken in regards to classes, with an effort made to fix it.
But...I'm becoming more and more frustrated every day. And every day I get to see on these forums, on reddit and in my own community how that frustration manifests and it's not fun at all
The main problem is that even when people continously ask for the same things the devs always choose the opposite direction. This game is intentd it to be F2P but P2P, but with P2P havinga meaning of "pay to progress". The dev team put a lot more effort on finding and removing any possible way that the players find to progress without having to pay than on fixing the bugs or the content they end up breacking just to not allow the people to progress. Most of the remaining players feels frustrated with this game since several months ago, I think the main reason because this game its still alive is because of the feeling that names like "Neverwinter", "Minsc", "Elminster" and now announcing "Drizzt" produce on the people, a lot more than the game experience that this game actually provide.
I think we can all agree with you, ironzerg. it's no secret that players don't feel we are treated fairly in this game. But sadly, it seems pretty evident that they are not aiming for player retention with this game. and therefore fairness isn't on top of their list. at the end we have 2 possible reasons why the game is at its current state, and both are not good news. Either the devs don't know how to fix these problems, which means they are not good at their jobs, or they are not allowed to fix what they want and are instead told to focus on other stuff more important for those who take the final decisions; which is also very bad news for players because it means bugs won't get fixed either, and we'll never get the game we want. I'm more inclined to believe in the second reason, and most actions (which say much more than words) taken by cryptic/PWE sure seem to point in that direction too.
I agree that the removal of AD from leadership was good for the health of the game in the long term. The problem is that changes to more of the AD sinks should have happened if not at the same time, then shortly there after. Also making up for the removal of AD by substituting some other rewards should have been done right away. For example: Battle Elemental Cultists - 24 hours to get less of a reward than you get for 4 hour task of Guard Young Noble on Trip, I mean, REALLY? I could go on! Then maybe we wouldn't have seen so many "rage quitters" ;-)
I'm a pretty patient guy, as I've stuck it out though a lot of bad decisions by the bean counters and management (I tend never to blame the devs, because I know!) but everyone runs low on patience and eventually gets frustrated and burned out.
Comments
That's how NW rolls, they want your to perceive the carrot, never get it.
Simply put, make every activity trickle some AD in to your bank! Do a quest (not just dailies! not everyone has access to dailies, campaign based or otherwise) a small amount of AD per quest. Do a skirmish..get trickle of AD, do a dungeon the same, pair that with some actual loot at the end, that exceeds the key cost and that would be reward enough for skirmish/dungeon runners.
If the dungeoneers get bored with the limited ones there are, they can go to skirmishs or quests or pvp and STILL be getting AD for their efforts, it reduces the grind a tad from for them.
Scaleable? Totally! L10 gets x amount for a quest/skirmish/dungeon/pvp, L20+ 10% or so up to level 70. Do this and the 1 day for hours player will get the same as 7 days for 1 hr players. Do this, and all that they have offered back, but only for L70 will be scaled and offered for L20+ rather than just L70.
Cap? What cap? Do this and they may take half or more of the day to get to 24k (barring any loot etc they are trading). So they play a marathon session and exceed 24k, so what! They may not play for the next 6 days or do and exceed the 24k again, so what?! They PLAYED for it, it wasn't handed to them, they EARNED it with effort and time sink.
Do it this way and you can eliminate all those previous AD sinks they put in to drain the "excess" AD, there won't by definition be any "excess" AD, it will all be EARNED AD, the AD they earned then could be spent on rewards they earned, not dumped down some sink, no profession task should eat up AD as a material cost....it's enough it's eating rare and semi rare materials, if the crafter can craft cheaper his pass on cost will be cheaper. you get a 2fer from eliminating that sink.
Boons, why do they cost a single AD? Previously yes they used them as AD dumps, but it's not needed now, the alternate currencies( fangs and coins and motes etc.) used in the campaigns and the time sink should be plenty of cost.
The only "sink" that AD should be used in, is a material return, use AD for a pet/upgrade, buy a MoP/GMoP etc etc. Spend AD, get an item. Retool the actual cost of items while your at it. 300k for a pet upgrade..really? That's just the first tier.
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame
Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter
Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
what if.. we get a new server, and you're allowed to copy 10 characters over to the new server with whatever they have on them, then - leadership returns.
everyone plays on the new 10character max server, cause its the one with the new rewards and better lockbox rates and AD-discounted wondrousbazaar,boons,SH upgrade costs, etc.
if you moan about how much zen you spent on extra character slots, think about how much you made from your leadership army. =X
edit: i also think it should be 2x everything until underdark. xp, rp, ad, gems, ... everything. =X
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
I see only one possible point of conflict: $. In your scenario, players can progress ideally without buying anything (or a few) at the zen market. Someone proposed to have no AD cap: this may inflate again the market to some extent.
Having your proposal accepted, requires a complete analisys and rework of the zen market: currently there's no value for money in it.
IMO, the critical point is the level of economical profitability of the overall concept. The current model is simply outrageous: very expensive and low value for money.
You proposal makes sense if at PWE they accept to move to something different from the simple "milking cows" approach to something more sophisticated which include the "value for money" concept.
The lockbox key model works as a casino: managed by a not-transparent RNG, drop trash most of the times and designed to make you lose all your money.
I can buy the 3 campains IWD, Shar and DR for 150$, a ruby (50K RP!!) for 800 zen : does it worth? Don't think so.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
A 50% price cut to things like companions, boosters, services, etc... along with a massive expansion of cosmetics (especially since we're all seeing how the SH gear looks
But, that only works if I'm earning cool stuff in game (and progressing my gear/characters/boons) in a tangible sense, not just grinding for millions of RP, while destitute, and getting outdated equipment in T2 dungeons. That gets toxic pretty quick and if I was still a solo player, I wouldn't be here because of it. The changes they've been making recently are definitely trending in the pro-player direction, so I have hope something like @ironzerg79 's ideas here (and elsewhere) will be strongly considered, if not implemented right-out. @asterdahl and @strumslinger definitely have inspired a lot of good will too, by giving the feedback to those of us in the forums and for fighting to get the fun back into this game.
In the end, I think this idea will be brought to those in charge and maybe even has a chance of making it into the game - and I would like to just recognize that that faith has been restored from near to nothing only a relatively few months ago. So, cheers to our Community Managers and to our devs.
Prices are way too high and income is waaaayyy to low. Progression behind a paywall is not good invitation to a game, ever.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
In my opinion, there's an ungodly amount of money to be grabbed, if Cryptic would just reach for it.
And those ideas have been beaten to death more than a Drow caught in a Pwent bear hug.
Here's the two most obvious pots of gold that have been brought up repeatedly, but I'll continue to reiterate.
1) Player housing: Sell some stuff on the Zen market, put some drops in dungeons, make some unique pieces as rewards for achievements or event drops. The basis of the system is already there in the Foundry...and that's how you can monetize the Foundry as well. Player created content is awesome, just think outside the box here. It doesn't have to be long and involved quests. Housing IS User Generated Content, just on a small and more personal level.
2) Cosmetics: Again, beaten to death in threads like this. Players have been begging Cryptic for 2 years to let them fork over cash for more cosmetic options...and it's been widely ignored.
If it were up to me, I'd take my foot off the gas for a little bit. I'd make Module 9 the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Focus not on new maps or content, but new character options. More customization for characters, more player races, player housing, stronghold customization, and perhaps...a new paragon path for all the classes, if that includes a "top to bottom" examination of what's broken in regards to classes, with an effort made to fix it.
But...I'm becoming more and more frustrated every day. And every day I get to see on these forums, on reddit and in my own community how that frustration manifests and it's not fun at all
Ideed this game has the potential to generate revenues for years. It's hard for me to believe that what is so obvious and trivial for the community, it's not understood by the company.
There's a huge gap abetween the players' expectations and what it's implemented: the announcement today of the new weekly sources of AD makes me fell with no hope and even fooled by the game developers.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Im feeling even more disgruntled today then yesterday, with really no real sign of hope left at this point.
I had another long timer on my friends list quit this week, its just too much at this point.
I mean this is a company, you have an administration making decisions and controlling the economy (the game), and what is incredible to me, is the lackness of actions of this administration, everyone knows we need lot of changes and this administration does almost nothing, or you have to wait an eternity for a change.
The problems are on the table, it's time you people (administration) start taking actions on the problems. I mean this is not a hard problem guys, you are not designing an airplane, you only have to do an study of the market and economy (and come on is a game economy, is not the real one) and start taking decisions and making the changes.
The principal problem with this administration, they are more worried in launching new modules instead fixing the game problems, and this is totally wrong. You need to have the quality of the game as a priority.
Sorry about my english i try my best ...
I'd rather have real rewards for playing foundries, and real rewards for foundry authors.
Many authors working within a framework that acTUALLY rewards players would add so many hours of playable content + revitalize all players bored of playing the same dungeons/dailies.
I would like to see the preview gear screen enhanced with the ideas from its announcement thread.
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
But sadly, it seems pretty evident that they are not aiming for player retention with this game. and therefore fairness isn't on top of their list.
at the end we have 2 possible reasons why the game is at its current state, and both are not good news. Either the devs don't know how to fix these problems, which means they are not good at their jobs, or they are not allowed to fix what they want and are instead told to focus on other stuff more important for those who take the final decisions; which is also very bad news for players because it means bugs won't get fixed either, and we'll never get the game we want.
I'm more inclined to believe in the second reason, and most actions (which say much more than words) taken by cryptic/PWE sure seem to point in that direction too.
I agree that the removal of AD from leadership was good for the health of the game in the long term. The problem is that changes to more of the AD sinks should have happened if not at the same time, then shortly there after. Also making up for the removal of AD by substituting some other rewards should have been done right away. For example: Battle Elemental Cultists - 24 hours to get less of a reward than you get for 4 hour task of Guard Young Noble on Trip, I mean, REALLY? I could go on! Then maybe we wouldn't have seen so many "rage quitters" ;-)
I'm a pretty patient guy, as I've stuck it out though a lot of bad decisions by the bean counters and management (I tend never to blame the devs, because I know!) but everyone runs low on patience and eventually gets frustrated and burned out.