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Star Trek once again has beaten Star Wars.......

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    I also think the problem with Rey isn't so much that she is a female force user or master. Star Wars has well established that female jedi masters are a thing. The problem is (at least with what is shown on screen) is that she uses it almost effortlessly while the farmboy at least had a few training scenes Yoda. All of it coming together a few days after we see her scavenging and scrubbing parts on Jakku. If Rey has any real faults, based on what's shown is that she's almost insufferably naive. She really has no other character flaws other than that. I have other gripes with TLJ but they're minor and not worth derailing the thread over.
    Well, what did Rey do on Jakku? She seemingly got into fights regularly so having skills in hand to hand combat makes sense. Her job stripping ISDs for spare parts required considerable technical skill to yank the parts without breaking the parts, or accidentally killing herself.

    To be honest I think forcing characters to have flaws is bad writing. It takes a lot of writing to explain it, and unless it's a major part of the backstory it's not worth it.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Oh another thought. According to Episode 1 an untrained 9 year old was using the Force to become the only Human Podracer. The Return of the Jedi novel states that Leia used the Force to strangle Jabba without even knowing she used it. The only reason Luke could "bullseye womprats" is using the Force. It is in fact long standing Star Wars tradition for people to use it without knowing and without training. So why is it a problem with Rey?

    welll the first three are fairly passive, anakin and luke would just be receiving insights from the force which doesn't need them to do anything it's literally just something all force sensitives get.

    leia subconsciously using the force while being very focused on killing jabba is pretty much, while pretty close to the darkside, exactly when something like that would happen.

    rey reversing ren's mind probe could probably be written off the same way, ren did most of the work starting it. the mind trick can not, it's an advanced skill that even powerful jedi masters can fail if the person they are trying it on is too alien. personally I figure it's just hollywood's fondness for escalation. but that doesn't make it not a little over the top.


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  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 226 Arc User
    I also think the problem with Rey isn't so much that she is a female force user or master. Star Wars has well established that female jedi masters are a thing. The problem is (at least with what is shown on screen) is that she uses it almost effortlessly while the farmboy at least had a few training scenes Yoda. All of it coming together a few days after we see her scavenging and scrubbing parts on Jakku. If Rey has any real faults, based on what's shown is that she's almost insufferably naive. She really has no other character flaws other than that. I have other gripes with TLJ but they're minor and not worth derailing the thread over.
    Well, what did Rey do on Jakku? She seemingly got into fights regularly so having skills in hand to hand combat makes sense. Her job stripping ISDs for spare parts required considerable technical skill to yank the parts without breaking the parts, or accidentally killing herself.

    To be honest I think forcing characters to have flaws is bad writing. It takes a lot of writing to explain it, and unless it's a major part of the backstory it's not worth it.

    That's why I didn't have an overall problem with her sparing off with the lightsaber. It was shown that she at least had some weapons training given her line of work and the planet she was on. That all made sense. Her mechanical skills and heck even her atmospheric piloting made sense given that her line of work was shown. Her using the force, after it was confirmed to her as real and utilize it with relative ease seemed a little too far fetched for me. The issue for me was her force use and being naive, not much of anything else - except her swimming. :p I would have liked her to have some flaws and experience a few more setbacks and TRIBBLE ups to give her some more relatability. I mean, she is the principal hero and I'm expected to root for her but why? She seems like she not have a setback or have to retreat from a genuine threat. She can overcome all obstacles and get herself out of any situation based on what we're shown. No stakes seem too high for her to overcome.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Oh another thought. According to Episode 1 an untrained 9 year old was using the Force to become the only Human Podracer. The Return of the Jedi novel states that Leia used the Force to strangle Jabba without even knowing she used it. The only reason Luke could "bullseye womprats" is using the Force. It is in fact long standing Star Wars tradition for people to use it without knowing and without training. So why is it a problem with Rey?

    See I didn't really care much for Anakin's backstory in PM for pretty much the same reasons. And I really didn't feel he was a relatable character nor much of a tragic character, especially since we already know his fate and he was either annoying or a brat in the first two films of the prequels. I also couldn't even fathom Shmi allowing her ONLY child to enter such a dangerous race. Backwoods rules I guess.

    With respect to Luke womprat kills or Leia's strangulation strength of Jabba, there wasn't anything shown to show that the force was being channeled. It was told in the novelization in Leia's case and (I'm assuming) Luke's case but it just have easily been she was in a desperate situation and he was just a damn good shot. Which would be expected given there probably isn't all that much else for Luke to do on Tatooine.
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  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 226 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @rattler2 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > I actually liked the phone joke.
    > What irritated me about TLJ was some of the stupid things like the Admiral basically throwing fuel onto a fire. She somewhat redeems herself in the end, but for most of the movie I just felt she was a stuck up "mother knows best" type.
    > Also... arcing turbolasers? Wut?
    > And... they SOOOO missed an opprotunity to bring in Lando. Instead we got that slicer who turned out to be working for the First Order.
    > Finally... for an organization that was operating with limited resources... they sure grew quickly, I mean EXPLOSIVELY quickly, after TFA. Going from hostile fringe element to dominating the galaxy in the span of... what? one hour? Hell... the whole concept of the Republic not even considering them a threat if the First Order has THAT MUCH military hardware... is stupid! NO government would just flat out ignore a radical group like that that has basically declared their intentions to destroy you.

    Once again rattler, an Admiral is not required tp explain anything to an insubordinate junior officer who waa just demoted for insubordination. Not ever in any military would Poe's behavior have been tolerated and he should have been shot for it.

    Not necessarily. While you're spot on with the first statement (as flag officers aren't required to explain anything even to officers not slapped with insubordination), and you're right, his actions would have been deemed unacceptable I highly doubt they would have shot him for it as a good leader (which Leia is) would have taken into account the mitigating factors. The key ones that saved him in the first instance was...he was successful. Both in taking out Starkiller base and taking out the dreadnought. If he hadn't I doubt Leia would have spared him a trip to the brig rather than a demotion. I suspect that in the later case, he was her best pilot and probably would be hard pressed to find another one given their eventual landing and subsequent fight against the First Order.
    ~Shia~

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  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I'd gather the Mind Trick is a big part of the Legend of Luke Skywalker, and by that point in the film she had already reversed Kylo's probe and was realizing she had the Force. So she latched on to a part of the legend and since she had no other options she tried. Her conversation with Han showed she knew Luke's legend after all.

    her knowing the some people can rearrange another person's mind, if only temporally, to be more to their likening is very different from doing it. if it took her any real length of time it probably be easier to accept but all of 5 minutes? yeah people finding it a bit questionable aren't being unreasonable here. granted that is rare these days but stranger things have happened.


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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Not necessarily. While you're spot on with the first statement (as flag officers aren't required to explain anything even to officers not slapped with insubordination), and you're right, his actions would have been deemed unacceptable I highly doubt they would have shot him for it as a good leader (which Leia is) would have taken into account the mitigating factors. The key ones that saved him in the first instance was...he was successful. Both in taking out Starkiller base and taking out the dreadnought. If he hadn't I doubt Leia would have spared him a trip to the brig rather than a demotion. I suspect that in the later case, he was her best pilot and probably would be hard pressed to find another one given their eventual landing and subsequent fight against the First Order.

    I'm also considering how well respected he is with the other pilots. Why was it so easy for him to rally a mutiny? Because he was still highly respected by the pilots.
    So... You've got an Admiral who seems to not care, a hotshot, hotheaded, well liked pilot who's frustrated with the lack of anything resembling a plan...
    It was a powder keg. One that frankly Admiral Holdo should have seen coming a mile away.

    Hell... at least telling him there is SOMETHING might have calmed him down a bit, rather that the total brush off that lit the fuse.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    The issue for me was her force use and being naive, not much of anything else - except her swimming. :p I would have liked her to have some flaws and experience a few more setbacks and TRIBBLE ups to give her some more relatability. I mean, she is the principal hero and I'm expected to root for her but why? She seems like she not have a setback or have to retreat from a genuine threat. She can overcome all obstacles and get herself out of any situation based on what we're shown. No stakes seem too high for her to overcome.
    One could argue she has plenty already. I mean she spent half of SW7 pining for the parents who abandoned her.... 10 years ago.
    With respect to Luke womprat kills or Leia's strangulation strength of Jabba, there wasn't anything shown to show that the force was being channeled. It was told in the novelization in Leia's case and (I'm assuming) Luke's case but it just have easily been she was in a desperate situation and he was just a damn good shot. Which would be expected given there probably isn't all that much else for Luke to do on Tatooine.
    In SW5 Leia used the Force explicitly to do something beyond what a Padawan would be expected to be capable of. How did they find Luke while he was dangling from the bottom of Cloud City? Leia scanned the city looking for him, not passive sensing, active scanning.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @markhawkman said:
    > (Quote)
    > Well, what did Rey do on Jakku? She seemingly got into fights regularly so having skills in hand to hand combat makes sense. Her job stripping ISDs for spare parts required considerable technical skill to yank the parts without breaking the parts, or accidentally killing herself.
    >
    > To be honest I think forcing characters to have flaws is bad writing. It takes a lot of writing to explain it, and unless it's a major part of the backstory it's not worth it.

    Don't forget she said "I've flown ships before but I've never left the planet" so she also had piloting skills established.
    What's Rey doing the FIRST time we see her? Piloting a speeder! She didn't walk to and from the ships she scavenged for parts.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 226 Arc User

    One could argue she has plenty already. I mean she spent half of SW7 pining for the parents who abandoned her.... 10 years ago.

    But that really ended up being of no real consequence. Any change or even acceptance of that fact if what Kylo told her was true didn't change her outlook, or heightend (or even diminished) her abilities. There was (at least outwardly) nothing at all. I would hardly call that a flaw.
    In SW5 Leia used the Force explicitly to do something beyond what a Padawan would be expected to be capable of. How did they find Luke while he was dangling from the bottom of Cloud City? Leia scanned the city looking for him, not passive sensing, active scanning.

    You see, when I saw that in theaters and subsequent viewings, I looked at that as Luke reaching out to her and relaying his location and able to spot him once he was in-range. While Yoda did mention that there was another, I didn't put two and two together and we (most of the audience) didn't get confirmation of Leia's force sensitivity until RotJ. All of that would indicate that Leia was force-sensitive but I probably would have walked out of the theater as a kid, if Leia started lifting Jabba off slab.

    What's Rey doing the FIRST time we see her? Piloting a speeder! She didn't walk to and from the ships she scavenged for parts.

    Now that's a stretch, Mark. Given the function of a speeder its probably no different for them than driving a car or riding a motorcycle is for us. She acknowledged to Finn that she had some piloting (rather flying skills) while on the run. I can accept that she would know how to fly and maneuver an endo/exo-atmospheric craft given that its stated she's flown before and demostrated her ability outrunning the tie fighters.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Not necessarily. While you're spot on with the first statement (as flag officers aren't required to explain anything even to officers not slapped with insubordination), and you're right, his actions would have been deemed unacceptable I highly doubt they would have shot him for it as a good leader (which Leia is) would have taken into account the mitigating factors. The key ones that saved him in the first instance was...he was successful. Both in taking out Starkiller base and taking out the dreadnought. If he hadn't I doubt Leia would have spared him a trip to the brig rather than a demotion. I suspect that in the later case, he was her best pilot and probably would be hard pressed to find another one given their eventual landing and subsequent fight against the First Order.

    I'm also considering how well respected he is with the other pilots. Why was it so easy for him to rally a mutiny? Because he was still highly respected by the pilots.
    So... You've got an Admiral who seems to not care, a hotshot, hotheaded, well liked pilot who's frustrated with the lack of anything resembling a plan...
    It was a powder keg. One that frankly Admiral Holdo should have seen coming a mile away.

    Hell... at least telling him there is SOMETHING might have calmed him down a bit, rather that the total brush off that lit the fuse.

    And that little mistake destroyed over half of the transport fleet because Finn and Tico picked up the wrong codebreaker. It is possible that there will be a redemption story for DJ in Rise of Skywalker, but Finn and Tico are partially responsible for the deaths of all the people on those transport ships.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    "Happily ever after" doesn't exist for anyone anywhere ever, and it didn't for Star Wars at any time. The old EU canon had Luke going dark 5 years after Endor and barely saved by Leia, a year later and the Republic is almost shredded by Thrawn, ultimately all 3 of Han & Leia's children end up dead or darkside and Chewie dies for nothing.

    Uh, last I checked, Dark Empire was set after The Thrawn Trilogy, and Jaina Solo lived to marry Jagged Fel and produce a dynasty that lasted over a century to the Legacy comic series.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    nightken wrote: »
    rey reversing ren's mind probe could probably be written off the same way, ren did most of the work starting it. the mind trick can not, it's an advanced skill that even powerful jedi masters can fail if the person they are trying it on is too alien. personally I figure it's just hollywood's fondness for escalation. but that doesn't make it not a little over the top.

    Force Persuade is also very effective on heavily indoctrinated and broken people like stormtroopers. Obi-wan mind-tricked an entire squad of stormtroopers at once in ANH, if you recall.

    Borrowing from Legends again, in X-Wing: The Krytos Trap, Corran Horn makes himself invisible to a couple of stormtroopers out of sheer desperation not to be found, before he's even remotely aware he's Force-sensitive. In the next book, he tries to do it to a stormtrooper on Thyferra in a less stressful situation and fails miserably. And this is a guy for whom illusions and mental trickery are the main focus of his powerset (the Halcyons and Horns are completely incapable of telekinesis--no Force jumps, no grabbing his lightsaber back after he drops it).

    Rey taking two or three tries to do it to a single stormie when she's desperate is honestly fine.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    at least anakin went out in a blaze of glory, unlike chewie who died to...a giant rock​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    One could argue she has plenty already. I mean she spent half of SW7 pining for the parents who abandoned her.... 10 years ago.
    But that really ended up being of no real consequence. Any change or even acceptance of that fact if what Kylo told her was true didn't change her outlook, or heightend (or even diminished) her abilities. There was (at least outwardly) nothing at all. I would hardly call that a flaw.
    By that standard which characters in SW have flaws?
    In SW5 Leia used the Force explicitly to do something beyond what a Padawan would be expected to be capable of. How did they find Luke while he was dangling from the bottom of Cloud City? Leia scanned the city looking for him, not passive sensing, active scanning.
    You see, when I saw that in theaters and subsequent viewings, I looked at that as Luke reaching out to her and relaying his location and able to spot him once he was in-range. While Yoda did mention that there was another, I didn't put two and two together and we (most of the audience) didn't get confirmation of Leia's force sensitivity until RotJ. All of that would indicate that Leia was force-sensitive but I probably would have walked out of the theater as a kid, if Leia started lifting Jabba off slab.
    It was a bit of both. Luke wanted to be found, but she had to look for him.
    What's Rey doing the FIRST time we see her? Piloting a speeder! She didn't walk to and from the ships she scavenged for parts.
    Now that's a stretch, Mark. Given the function of a speeder its probably no different for them than driving a car or riding a motorcycle is for us. She acknowledged to Finn that she had some piloting (rather flying skills) while on the run. I can accept that she would know how to fly and maneuver an endo/exo-atmospheric craft given that its stated she's flown before and demostrated her ability outrunning the tie fighters.
    given the speed and altitude speeders operate at, I'd say it takes considerable skill and time to learn how to control them.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    azrael605 wrote: »
    "Happily ever after" doesn't exist for anyone anywhere ever, and it didn't for Star Wars at any time. The old EU canon had Luke going dark 5 years after Endor and barely saved by Leia, a year later and the Republic is almost shredded by Thrawn, ultimately all 3 of Han & Leia's children end up dead or darkside and Chewie dies for nothing.

    I thought the Dark Empire story was dumb, actually. I wasn't really happy with the New Jedi Order and the Vong story either.

    The Thrawn story worked pretty well for me, because the characters were still in a "forward" trajectory. Luke was starting to become a master, trying to learn more about the force. Leia was involved in building the New Republic.
    Fundamentally, Thrawn's sucess were no where as bad as blowing up multiple New Republic worlds, and he was a very different enemy than what came before. That all worked rather well as a continuation.

    An advantage the EU had is that we were able to see the entire journey of our characters. So every character change felt (mostly, except where books were just bad) more or less justified and explained.
    But due to the nature of things, that wasn't possible with the new sequels. The actors aged.

    It would probably have worked better forme if they had continued after our "heroes" are retired or dead. Maybe we'd get to see the original characters in Holocrons or something like that.

    But clearly, TFA was written repeating key beats from ANH because ANH is what made Star Wars big and gained it a massive audience - if you want to get a new audience into the Star Wars franchise, it kinda makes sense to go back to what made it strong. But the way they did it, it kinda ends up fracking up the old characters. Not so important for a new audience, but somewhat disappointing to many (but certainly not all) of the old audience. In a way, it's fan service that for some fans actually becomes a fan disservice.
    Just as with Star Trek, people like different things about Star Wars. We might be all the fans of the same overall franchise, but what attracts us and what we value most is different.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    According to the wiki pages both are set 5 years after ROTJ, but since Coriscant is razed in Dark Empire but still the seat of the New Republic in Thrawn Trilogy then Thrawn hits first yes. I'll admit I abandoned the old EU the moment Anakin Solo died, but considering Jacen killed Mara, Luke's wife, that still makes Jaina and possibly Ben Skywalker the exceptions to the rule.

    Well, for what it's worth, I stopped buying Legends after the first Legacy of the Force book (except for Matt Stover's Shatterpoint and some Michael Reaves books, all of which were set way earlier), so I know the feeling.

    Incidentally, I was at a con panel Michael Stackpole hosted a couple months ago. He had some fun stories to tell about being on the storyboarding committee for NJO:
    • He tried pretty hard to stop Anakin from being killed off, which is why he and James Luceno started to build up the relationship between him and Tahiri.
    • After Vector Prime came out, he saw a bunch of the forum threads complaining about the book. There was a post that said, "Don't worry, Michael Stackpole is up next, he'll fix all this."

      Stackpole logged in and responded to the post with words to the effect of, "Think again, dude. Salvatore's Yuuzhan Vong are the brownshirts. Mine are the Waffen-SS."
    • He was on the planning committee as pretty much the canon and continuity wonk, being the only member who had written for Star Wars before the Del Rey takeover of the license. He found that when he needed to kill any really stupid idea, the best approach was to go, "Yeah! That was so cool when they did it on Star Trek!"
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    He [Stackpole] was on the planning committee as pretty much the canon and continuity wonk, being the only member who had written for Star Wars before the Del Rey takeover of the license. He found that when he needed to kill any really stupid idea, the best approach was to go, "Yeah! That was so cool when they did it on Star Trek!"
    :lol:
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  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 226 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    @majorcharvenak

    A few notes on Shmi, and Luke for that matter.

    1. Shmi and Anakin were slaves, once Watto knew Anakin could fly a podracer Shmi had no choice about letting him race.

    2. As per the canon Marvel Darth Vader #25 Palpatine/Siddious created Anakin, and was manipulating his life from day 1 (and that has to have seriously TRIBBLE with Luke's mind). So again Shmi likely had no choice, or chance when Palpatine decided it was time for her to die.

    Was aware of both but with respect to the first, you would think that (even as a slave) she would have privately applied more pressure for him not to race at all. Still minor in the grand scheme of things.
    ~Shia~

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    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 65, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 65, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 63, Rom Tac
    Sukima, Lvl 65, Fed Vul Sci

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anointed Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    > @azrael605 said:
    > Ah but don't forget major, the "job benefits" of being a slave include beatings, r.a.p.e., having your family sold, and in the Star Wars universe having your explosive implant detonated. Doesn't leave a lot of room to object, and pushing Anakin to refuse to race would most likely end with hin dead or sold off.

    Yeah, that doesn't sound like Watto. Maybe Anakin and Shmi's former master Gardulla the Hutt, but slave-owner or not Watto is consistently portrayed as a pretty lenient master.

    For emphasis: I'm not defending slavery, only Watto.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,196 Arc User
    I don't think the prophecy was supposed to be "fake", I think it was misunderstood.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    jake477 wrote: »
    The great war maybe finally coming to an end...

    Trek is forever.....this just proves it.

    So, here you go. Yes, it IS a competition from a business perspective. The companies who own these franchises both want our money, and we only have a limited amount of money to spend. So yes, it is a competition from that perspective.

    But from the fan side of things, the whole "my franchise beats your franchise" is EXTREMELY childish and disgusting.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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