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In Defence of Rick Berman

lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
Okay I just found out that Terry Farrell throws a lot of shade at Rick Berman in the DS9 documentary, but at no time is Rick Berman allowed to defend himself or speak at all in the documentary.

So I canceled my order because its not to slander someone and not allow them to defend themselves.

Rick Berman is more responsible in some ways for Star Trek's success then Gene Roddenberry, because he saved TNG, he co created DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, the Golden Era of Star Trek, so to stab him in the back like this is wrong. Actually it'd be wrong to do this to anybody.

But its how things are done in Hollywood now.
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Comments

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,105 Arc User
    I think she did that because of why she left the show. It was as much her fault as anyone else's.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,217 Arc User
    What did you expect from Hollywood? These "stars" are so divorced from reality it isn't even funny.
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  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 533 Arc User
    edited August 14
    Unless some Star Trek fans live in a cave, most are bound to know that there are levels of enmity between some of the various franchise stars and their peers (whether in front of the camera or behind it). For me I never liked how Gene Roddenberry absolutely and completely screwed Alexander Courage by writing lyrics to his iconic main series theme that were never meant to be heard or sung. It was just Gene's way to squeeze more money for himself at the expense of someone else. Gene did that for no other reason. That is just one example, and there are plenty of others. Farrell admits that she was at fault for not couch phrasing her at that time request for a lesser work load on DS9, but that does not mean how and why her character was written out was not retaliatory.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    I do know that in the past she has said she had to stuff her bra on Berman's orders, but that was a professional decision he had every right to make as it about the appearance of the character, and is no wear near as bad as having to wear TRIBBLE ears like the Ferengi had too, so get over it.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    > @captainwells said:
    > Unless some Star Trek fans live in a cave, most are bound to know that there are levels of enmity between some of the various franchise stars and their peers (whether in front of the camera or behind it). For me I never liked how Gene Roddenberry absolutely and completely screwed Alexander Courage by writing lyrics to his iconic main series theme that were never meant to be heard or sung. It was just Gene's way to squeeze more money for himself at the expense of someone else. Gene did that for no other reason. That is just one example, and there are plenty of others. Farrell admits that she was at fault for not couch phrasing her at that time request for a lesser work load on DS9, but that does not mean how and why her character was written out was not retaliatory.

    Could Rick have handle it better, yes. Still I'm hearing some people accusing Rick Berman of sexual harrassment so I'm wondering if he was accused of that in the documentary? I haven't seen it yet as Amazon messed up my order.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 533 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    > @captainwells said:
    > Unless some Star Trek fans live in a cave, most are bound to know that there are levels of enmity between some of the various franchise stars and their peers (whether in front of the camera or behind it). For me I never liked how Gene Roddenberry absolutely and completely screwed Alexander Courage by writing lyrics to his iconic main series theme that were never meant to be heard or sung. It was just Gene's way to squeeze more money for himself at the expense of someone else. Gene did that for no other reason. That is just one example, and there are plenty of others. Farrell admits that she was at fault for not couch phrasing her at that time request for a lesser work load on DS9, but that does not mean how and why her character was written out was not retaliatory.

    Could Rick have handle it better, yes. Still I'm hearing some people accusing Rick Berman of sexual harrassment so I'm wondering if he was accused of that in the documentary? I haven't seen it yet as Amazon messed up my order.

    I've not heard that at all either? I think that the whole Berman/Farrell thing was just the two of them being of entirely different mindsets over the one thing.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    > @captainwells said:
    > lordgyor wrote: »
    >
    > > @captainwells said:
    > > Unless some Star Trek fans live in a cave, most are bound to know that there are levels of enmity between some of the various franchise stars and their peers (whether in front of the camera or behind it). For me I never liked how Gene Roddenberry absolutely and completely screwed Alexander Courage by writing lyrics to his iconic main series theme that were never meant to be heard or sung. It was just Gene's way to squeeze more money for himself at the expense of someone else. Gene did that for no other reason. That is just one example, and there are plenty of others. Farrell admits that she was at fault for not couch phrasing her at that time request for a lesser work load on DS9, but that does not mean how and why her character was written out was not retaliatory.
    >
    > Could Rick have handle it better, yes. Still I'm hearing some people accusing Rick Berman of sexual harrassment so I'm wondering if he was accused of that in the documentary? I haven't seen it yet as Amazon messed up my order.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I've not heard that at all either? I think that the whole Berman/Farrell thing was just the two of them being of entirely different mindsets over the one thing.

    Some fans are accusing him of sexual harrassment because he had Terry where a bra that made her TRIBBLE look larger when playing Dax, but that was a professional aestetic choice he had every right to make and its no worse then Blacksails or Game of Thrones or Altered Carbon asking for nude scenes for actors and actresses. Honestly this is why Sexual Harrassment laws should be replaced by sexual extortion laws, SH is too vague too easy to misrepresent and manipulate to whatever a person feels like.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,577 Arc User
    Far more credit for TNG goes to Michael Piller and Jeri Taylor, IMO. DS9 was really more Ira Behr's baby, with a lot of assistance from Ron Moore. Berman worked closely with Brannon Braga on both VOY and the first three seasons of ENT, and it shows, IMO. Berman was also responsible for that terrible last episode of ENT, "These Are the Voyages".

    I have no idea what "shade" is thrown at Berman in interviews with Ryan, because frankly I don't really care about interpersonal gossip. But I certainly wouldn't credit Berman with "saving" Star Trek. Nearly destroying it, perhaps...
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,105 Arc User
    edited August 14
    lordgyor wrote: »
    I do know that in the past she has said she had to stuff her bra on Berman's orders, but that was a professional decision he had every right to make as it about the appearance of the character, and is no wear near as bad as having to wear TRIBBLE ears like the Ferengi had too, so get over it.
    Yeah, the padded bra thing is just costuming. the character has bigger TRIBBLE than you do. It's like with the spots...

    EDIT: Are all words for mammary glands filtered?
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 4,817 Arc User
    edited August 14
    EDIT: Are all words for mammary glands filtered?

    I'll do an experiment: TRIBBLE boob TRIBBLE breast TRIBBLE

    Edit: boob and breast both seem to be acceptable, but their plurals are not it seems
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    There are some words that don't make sense to be censored. Like a certain counterpart to nails that requires a screwdriver.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited August 14
    The bra padding was actually to prevent any details or motion from showing through the costumes (Jeri Ryan had an even worse time of it, her catsuit had a very tight and stiff underlayer to keep any motion from being visible anywhere).

    Pretty much the same thing was the rule in TOS since it was subjected to ridiculous censorship due to the Hollywood practice of pigeonholing science fiction as either horror or kids-stuff, and Trek was not presented as horror. Unfortunately, when TNG came about it did so just when the "uptight '80s" was nearing full swing at the start of the decade so the practice became locked in to all Trek as a standard and not just an overcensorship issue.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,922 Arc User
    edited August 17
    (Offensive, suggestive language moderated out. Getting "creative" to bypass the censor will get you moderated instead. I would suggest that you don't. - BMR)
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,577 Arc User
    edited August 15
    rattler2 wrote: »
    There are some words that don't make sense to be censored. Like a certain counterpart to nails that requires a screwdriver.
    Well, there is a certain sense to it, just as there's a certain sense to censoring the name of that thing you turn to open a door or the last name of the novelist who wrote Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and We Can Remember It For You Wholesale. It is, in my opinion, an unnecessary level of censorship given that we have mods in this here forum, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.

    I can even understand why the singular for certain slang terms is okay, but the plural gets hit (one can discuss a chicken-breast sandwich, for instance, and a silly and uncouth person could be called a "boob" - which makes me wonder whether it's okay to discuss the blue-footed booby, or if bird-watchers are left out too?).

    Jon's Post, supplemental: Okay, you can discuss a booby, or even a flock of boobies. Good to know. :smile:
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 32,665 Arc User
    the word 'boob' always reminds me of one of my favorite lines from beast wars

    'When expecting booby traps...always send a boob in first'​​
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,135 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > The bra padding was actually to prevent any details or motion from showing through the costumes (Jeri Ryan had an even worse time of it, her catsuit had a very tight and stiff underlayer to keep any motion from being visible anywhere).
    >
    > Pretty much the same thing was the rule in TOS since it was subjected to ridiculous censorship due to the Hollywood practice of pigeonholing science fiction as either horror or kids-stuff, and Trek was not presented as horror. Unfortunately, when TNG came about it did so just when the "uptight '80s" was nearing full swing at the start of the decade so the practice became locked in to all Trek as a standard and not just an overcensorship issue.

    That was not the reason for the padding or for what Jeri had to wear. In fact everyone involved from Berman to Ryan has stated otherwise so don't try to whitewash with BS.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited August 16
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > The bra padding was actually to prevent any details or motion from showing through the costumes (Jeri Ryan had an even worse time of it, her catsuit had a very tight and stiff underlayer to keep any motion from being visible anywhere).
    >
    > Pretty much the same thing was the rule in TOS since it was subjected to ridiculous censorship due to the Hollywood practice of pigeonholing science fiction as either horror or kids-stuff, and Trek was not presented as horror. Unfortunately, when TNG came about it did so just when the "uptight '80s" was nearing full swing at the start of the decade so the practice became locked in to all Trek as a standard and not just an overcensorship issue.

    That was not the reason for the padding or for what Jeri had to wear. In fact everyone involved from Berman to Ryan has stated otherwise so don't try to whitewash with BS.

    I am not "whitewashing" it, Ryan herself said as much in an interview, similar to the interview that Sirtis gave where she talked about how the intelligence of Troi was apparently directly inverse to the amount of cleavage showing in the costumes she wore.

    Roddenberry talked about pretty much the same thing in a very funny recorded interview (I used to have the record but it went even before the last record player I had broke down), all the ridiculous restrictions that they had to work under to satisfy the censors. In fact, he later remarked that he gave the Tyranians in Genesis II two navels because of the arguments he had with the overzealous censors in TOS that nixed any costume that showed a navel.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > lordgyor wrote: »
    >
    > I do know that in the past she has said she had to stuff her bra on Berman's orders, but that was a professional decision he had every right to make as it about the appearance of the character, and is no wear near as bad as having to wear TRIBBLE ears like the Ferengi had too, so get over it.
    >
    >
    >
    > Yeah, the padded bra thing is just costuming. the character has bigger TRIBBLE than you do. It's like with the spots...
    >
    > EDIT: Are all words for mammary glands filtered?

    Exactly! Jeri Ryan andand Sherman had to do it at times and complained less, but I expect we would be hearing abour this if she hadn't gotten herself fired by Berman. Its revenge. Much of the cast had to deal with worse.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > The bra padding was actually to prevent any details or motion from showing through the costumes (Jeri Ryan had an even worse time of it, her catsuit had a very tight and stiff underlayer to keep any motion from being visible anywhere).
    >
    > Pretty much the same thing was the rule in TOS since it was subjected to ridiculous censorship due to the Hollywood practice of pigeonholing science fiction as either horror or kids-stuff, and Trek was not presented as horror. Unfortunately, when TNG came about it did so just when the "uptight '80s" was nearing full swing at the start of the decade so the practice became locked in to all Trek as a standard and not just an overcensorship issue.

    Now I picturing Seven's custome, but with jiggling. Wow.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    I wish Rick Berman, aka the Russ Meyers of Star Trek was working on Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard and most of all Star Trek: Section 31.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User


    Joe Rogan and Bill Burr talking about beauty standards.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User


    Listen to the video and you hear a different story.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,577 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    I wish Rick Berman, aka the Russ Meyers of Star Trek was working on Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard and most of all Star Trek: Section 31.

    You hate Star Trek that badly? I mean, he did the franchise enough damage with VOY and ENT, I think.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,242 Bug Hunter
    He's a talentless hack with whom DS9 thrived in spite of and not because of.
    Same with Roddenberry, Braga, and possibly Abrams. If it wasn't for the small army of actually talented people like Moore, Begr, Coon, and Piller, or even Taylor and Kurtzman, then the franchise would be in very poor shape.

    Thank the gods he doesn't have anything to do with DSC, PIC or any future projects.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,135 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > > The bra padding was actually to prevent any details or motion from showing through the costumes (Jeri Ryan had an even worse time of it, her catsuit had a very tight and stiff underlayer to keep any motion from being visible anywhere).
    > >
    > > Pretty much the same thing was the rule in TOS since it was subjected to ridiculous censorship due to the Hollywood practice of pigeonholing science fiction as either horror or kids-stuff, and Trek was not presented as horror. Unfortunately, when TNG came about it did so just when the "uptight '80s" was nearing full swing at the start of the decade so the practice became locked in to all Trek as a standard and not just an overcensorship issue.
    >
    > That was not the reason for the padding or for what Jeri had to wear. In fact everyone involved from Berman to Ryan has stated otherwise so don't try to whitewash with BS.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I am not "whitewashing" it, Ryan herself said as much in an interview, similar to the interview that Sirtis gave where she talked about how the intelligence of Troi was apparently directly inverse to the amount of cleavage showing in the costumes she wore.
    >
    > Roddenberry talked about pretty much the same thing in a very funny recorded interview (I used to have the record but it went even before the last record player I had broke down), all the ridiculous restrictions that they had to work under to satisfy the censors. In fact, he later remarked that he gave the Tyranians in Genesis II two navels because of the arguments he had with the overzealous censors in TOS that nixed any costume that showed a navel.

    Jeri Ryan stated at the 2017 SDCC the actual reasons for the costume she was forced into. Berman had much in common with her ex-husband former senator Jack Ryan who used to try to take her to BDSM clubs. Earlier statements were made in fear of weinstein like career reprisals.

    In the 1960s it was against TV standards to show a toilet or even hint at bathrooms. That changed decades ago, as di the navel thing which you utterly butchered the story of. By the 1990s such idiotic TRIBBLE had been long since discarded. There was no rule on TV that made any bra padding needed for anyone, and actually watching the show would show you numerous times that neither those 2 actresses nor any of the dozens of other women in the cast ever padded anything.

    1960s rules did not govern 1990s TV period.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,678 Arc User
    From what I've gathered is that Berman wasn't so much a hack as he was overly conservative with Star Trek (as in wanting conserve and retain certain aspects Star Trek, not in his political leaning which I know nothing about) while being out of touch with what audiences actually wanted.

    When paired with someone who could counter act those weaknesses Berman could do great stuff, however if paired with someone who couldn't well the results weren't generally very pretty.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    > @spiritborn said:
    > From what I've gathered is that Berman wasn't so much a hack as he was overly conservative with Star Trek (as in wanting conserve and retain certain aspects Star Trek, not in his political leaning which I know nothing about) while being out of touch with what audiences actually wanted.
    >
    > When paired with someone who could counter act those weaknesses Berman could do great stuff, however if paired with someone who couldn't well the results weren't generally very pretty.

    I think the flip side of that is true too, problems arise when Berman isn't there counter act his opposite sorts excesses.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    > @jonsills said:
    > lordgyor wrote: »
    >
    > I wish Rick Berman, aka the Russ Meyers of Star Trek was working on Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard and most of all Star Trek: Section 31.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You hate Star Trek that badly? I mean, he did the franchise enough damage with VOY and ENT, I think.

    Berman has had the last laugh, look at the viewership of Voyager and Enterpise on netflix, Voyager does better then DS9 (and I say that as a Niner) and Enterprise does roughly as well as DS9. Berman for the win.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    That could be more due to the fact that after Discovery, Voyager and Enterprise are the most recent TV series, and Discovery has basically opened the door to other Trek shows people might check out.

    It could be any number of factors which has nothing to do with the showrunner.
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,678 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    > @spiritborn said:
    > From what I've gathered is that Berman wasn't so much a hack as he was overly conservative with Star Trek (as in wanting conserve and retain certain aspects Star Trek, not in his political leaning which I know nothing about) while being out of touch with what audiences actually wanted.
    >
    > When paired with someone who could counter act those weaknesses Berman could do great stuff, however if paired with someone who couldn't well the results weren't generally very pretty.

    I think the flip side of that is true too, problems arise when Berman isn't there counter act his opposite sorts excesses.

    Obviously making TV-series is a team effort after all, though due to his position there was rarely a situation where Berman couldn't have countered something if he felt passionate enough about it.

    And obviously Berman's not unique in this either Roddenberry had the exact same issue and it nearly killed TNG (as in TNG didn't really get popular until Roddenberry was "kicked upstairs" for season 3 and TNG couldn't have really sustained a third lackluster season).
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