Why? It is just historical trivia about the TV/Radio industry.
Some people seem to feel that Discovery is beyond reproach for some odd reason, so they act like any actual criticism of the show is someone talking out their TRIBBLE or just hate bashing for no reason.
There's certainly an element of this. Such as suggesting the cinematography of the show is "superficial". Patently nonsense. That's like saying the sound direction on a radio show is "superficial". Television is a visual medium: lighting (just on example) is crucial to setting the mood of any given scene. For certain people to imply engaging with the show visually is "shallow" is absurd.
But, as they wish, I shall now set the brightness of my TV to 0, so that my experience of the content is not sullied by anything as crass and uncultured as visuals on a television screen.
And yes, action and drama are genres. This may be a revolutionary concept, but it is possible for a TV show to have more than one genre. And yes, DSC does lean heavily towards the action and drama genres. So did DS9, and VOY, but not to quite the same extent (probably due to the more episodic format). TOS leaned more on a mix of action and (for lack of a better term) "space western" for its genres.
All phoenix was saying is that DSC has been written more like the films, which have almost always had a heavy action focus (TMP and TFF being notable exceptions). I happen to agree with them. It has not been written in the same way as any previous Trek series. This is not to lump all pre-DSC Trek in one group: no Trek series was written the same way as another. But you cannot use the commonality of difference to say difference doesn't exist! That is a strawman, and does nothing to help the reputation of those of us who actually like DSC.
What is this stupid problem people are imagining The Last Jedi has? Over 2 decades before it came out Luke went full on Dark Side apprentice to Palpatine himself in a story that was canon until Disney bought Lucasfilm. Everyone was fine with that, more than fine, Dark Empire is rated among the best SW tales out there. Yet somehow Luke losing hope but not going anywhere near the Dark Side is a problem?
Far as I can tell, most of the complaining fanbois wanted Luke to come out swinging his lightsaber and slaughtering the entire First Order like some kind of badass Jedi warrior, not sit there moping because his best student went bad and then starting to teach another.
Because they didn't listen to one damn word Yoda said in TESB - especially his dismissal of Luke's goal of finding "a great Jedi warrior." "'Great warrior'? Heh. Wars not make one great!"
(Also, as noted above, most of them are unaware that when your CAG refuses an order to retreat and winds up costing you your entire fighter defense and all the bomber squadrons in order to take out one ship that was replaced by the next scene, courts martial are generally in order. Leia was extremely lenient in permitting him to remain on duty, albeit after a reduction in rank. Then, later, when they were being pursued through hyperspace, something thought to be impossible, the reasonable conclusion was that there was a mole somewhere spilling the beans to the FO - and hey, here's this insubordinate officer who got all his flightmates killed and put you into this situation, demanding full access to classified data like he's got some kind of right to it. He's lucky he wasn't executed on suspicion of being a spy at that point. Oh, then he leads a full-on mutiny, but after that gets put down, all he gets is a dressing-down from Holdo. You wanna talk Mary Sues? <rolleyes> But these fanbois are mad because Poe isn't the hero of that story.)
What is this stupid problem people are imagining The Last Jedi has? Over 2 decades before it came out Luke went full on Dark Side apprentice to Palpatine himself in a story that was canon until Disney bought Lucasfilm. Everyone was fine with that, more than fine, Dark Empire is rated among the best SW tales out there. Yet somehow Luke losing hope but not going anywhere near the Dark Side is a problem?
Far as I can tell, most of the complaining fanbois wanted Luke to come out swinging his lightsaber and slaughtering the entire First Order like some kind of badass Jedi warrior, not sit there moping because his best student went bad and then starting to teach another.
Because they didn't listen to one damn word Yoda said in TESB - especially his dismissal of Luke's goal of finding "a great Jedi warrior." "'Great warrior'? Heh. Wars not make one great!"
(Also, as noted above, most of them are unaware that when your CAG refuses an order to retreat and winds up costing you your entire fighter defense and all the bomber squadrons in order to take out one ship that was replaced by the next scene, courts martial are generally in order. Leia was extremely lenient in permitting him to remain on duty, albeit after a reduction in rank. Then, later, when they were being pursued through hyperspace, something thought to be impossible, the reasonable conclusion was that there was a mole somewhere spilling the beans to the FO - and hey, here's this insubordinate officer who got all his flightmates killed and put you into this situation, demanding full access to classified data like he's got some kind of right to it. He's lucky he wasn't executed on suspicion of being a spy at that point. Oh, then he leads a full-on mutiny, but after that gets put down, all he gets is a dressing-down from Holdo. You wanna talk Mary Sues? <rolleyes> But these fanbois are mad because Poe isn't the hero of that story.)
The ship wasn't replaced next scene, it was a fleet killer. They had more star destroyers yes, but had Poe not had them destroy it, then in the next scene the resistance would be dead because the ship would've wiped them out.
He's also not asking for classified data either, he just wants to know what the general plan is, he is a resistance hero after all, having just saved all of their lives.
What is this stupid problem people are imagining The Last Jedi has? Over 2 decades before it came out Luke went full on Dark Side apprentice to Palpatine himself in a story that was canon until Disney bought Lucasfilm. Everyone was fine with that, more than fine, Dark Empire is rated among the best SW tales out there. Yet somehow Luke losing hope but not going anywhere near the Dark Side is a problem?
Far as I can tell, most of the complaining fanbois wanted Luke to come out swinging his lightsaber and slaughtering the entire First Order like some kind of badass Jedi warrior, not sit there moping because his best student went bad and then starting to teach another.
Because they didn't listen to one damn word Yoda said in TESB - especially his dismissal of Luke's goal of finding "a great Jedi warrior." "'Great warrior'? Heh. Wars not make one great!"
(Also, as noted above, most of them are unaware that when your CAG refuses an order to retreat and winds up costing you your entire fighter defense and all the bomber squadrons in order to take out one ship that was replaced by the next scene, courts martial are generally in order. Leia was extremely lenient in permitting him to remain on duty, albeit after a reduction in rank. Then, later, when they were being pursued through hyperspace, something thought to be impossible, the reasonable conclusion was that there was a mole somewhere spilling the beans to the FO - and hey, here's this insubordinate officer who got all his flightmates killed and put you into this situation, demanding full access to classified data like he's got some kind of right to it. He's lucky he wasn't executed on suspicion of being a spy at that point. Oh, then he leads a full-on mutiny, but after that gets put down, all he gets is a dressing-down from Holdo. You wanna talk Mary Sues? <rolleyes> But these fanbois are mad because Poe isn't the hero of that story.)
The ship wasn't replaced next scene, it was a fleet killer. They had more star destroyers yes, but had Poe not had them destroy it, then in the next scene the resistance would be dead because the ship would've wiped them out.
He's also not asking for classified data either, he just wants to know what the general plan is, he is a resistance hero after all, having just saved all of their lives.
The fleet had escaped already. That's why he was given the recall order - which he ignored, losing them all their fighter and bomber cover. And there was another dreadnought in the pursuit sequence later, so yes, it was replaced literally in the next scene.
He saved their lives with a delaying action, yes - and promptly got a large number of them killed by not returning when they were safe. And he was largely responsible for the deaths of the majority of the escapees later, as it was his mutiny that gave up the escape plan. Had he just shut up and soldiered, they would have been fine.
Also, since he was no longer CAG, he was not entitled to know anything except his orders. I dunno, maybe you have to have served to understand, but he was not authorized to even know if there was a plan. What you don't know, you can't give away.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
What is this stupid problem people are imagining The Last Jedi has? Over 2 decades before it came out Luke went full on Dark Side apprentice to Palpatine himself in a story that was canon until Disney bought Lucasfilm. Everyone was fine with that, more than fine, Dark Empire is rated among the best SW tales out there. Yet somehow Luke losing hope but not going anywhere near the Dark Side is a problem?
Far as I can tell, most of the complaining fanbois wanted Luke to come out swinging his lightsaber and slaughtering the entire First Order like some kind of badass Jedi warrior, not sit there moping because his best student went bad and then starting to teach another.
Because they didn't listen to one damn word Yoda said in TESB - especially his dismissal of Luke's goal of finding "a great Jedi warrior." "'Great warrior'? Heh. Wars not make one great!"
(Also, as noted above, most of them are unaware that when your CAG refuses an order to retreat and winds up costing you your entire fighter defense and all the bomber squadrons in order to take out one ship that was replaced by the next scene, courts martial are generally in order. Leia was extremely lenient in permitting him to remain on duty, albeit after a reduction in rank. Then, later, when they were being pursued through hyperspace, something thought to be impossible, the reasonable conclusion was that there was a mole somewhere spilling the beans to the FO - and hey, here's this insubordinate officer who got all his flightmates killed and put you into this situation, demanding full access to classified data like he's got some kind of right to it. He's lucky he wasn't executed on suspicion of being a spy at that point. Oh, then he leads a full-on mutiny, but after that gets put down, all he gets is a dressing-down from Holdo. You wanna talk Mary Sues? <rolleyes> But these fanbois are mad because Poe isn't the hero of that story.)
The ship wasn't replaced next scene, it was a fleet killer. They had more star destroyers yes, but had Poe not had them destroy it, then in the next scene the resistance would be dead because the ship would've wiped them out.
He's also not asking for classified data either, he just wants to know what the general plan is, he is a resistance hero after all, having just saved all of their lives.
The fleet had escaped already. That's why he was given the recall order - which he ignored, losing them all their fighter and bomber cover. And there was another dreadnought in the pursuit sequence later, so yes, it was replaced literally in the next scene.
He saved their lives with a delaying action, yes - and promptly got a large number of them killed by not returning when they were safe. And he was largely responsible for the deaths of the majority of the escapees later, as it was his mutiny that gave up the escape plan. Had he just shut up and soldiered, they would have been fine.
Also, since he was no longer CAG, he was not entitled to know anything except his orders. I dunno, maybe you have to have served to understand, but he was not authorized to even know if there was a plan. What you don't know, you can't give away.
Had he not blown it up, the fleet killer would have followed them on the chase afterwards, and been able to blow up every single rebel ship effortlessly as they limped along. Poe saved them all.
And Shadow its a fleet killed because of those whatever the hell they are rail guns on the bottom of their ship, which seem to be implied to be able to one shot any ship they target.
And there was no need to hide anything, there were no first order spies, and he's a hero. That'd be like not telling luke Skywalker what the plan to attack the death star is and just dropping him on Endor
they're called orbital autocannons, and they were designed for orbital bombardment, not fleet engagements - i'm not even sure they CAN target ships given the cannon's position relative to the rest of the ship...the fulminatrix would've had to be 'above' any ship it wanted to fire on to have a clear, unobstructed LOS
and as we all know, 3D combat does not exist in sci-fi - it always occurs on a flat plane
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
West, first of all, it's pretty plain you've never served in the military. Junior members have no right to know plans, or even to know whether there are plans. It ain't a democracy, friend, it's a literal military dictatorship, because in the heat of battle there's no time for the commander to explain herself, so her officers (and enlisted!) had damned well better have the habit of obedience to legal orders.
"But there were no spies!" But -BUT - the Resistance did not KNOW this. What they "knew" was that it was impossible to track ships through hyperspace, and jumping away should have rendered them safe (and remember, that's what Poe believed too, so his insistence on wrecking that one ship was stupid even from his POV). but the First Order fleet seemed to be following them anyway. Least hypothesis was that a mole in their midst was feeding the FO information. And hey, here's this guy whose last fleet action lost them their entire fighter escort, nosing around about the High Command's plans, just the way a spy would. The question should arise, was the loss of the fighters an accidental result of said insubordination - or was it a deliberate effort to reduce their defenses?
You should not confuse your omniscient audience view with what the characters know. And you should also be aware, if you want to critique military procedures, how exactly those military procedures work. We don't excuse disobedience, particularly disobedience that gets people killed, just because the perpetrator is "heroic".
West, first of all, it's pretty plain you've never served in the military. Junior members have no right to know plans, or even to know whether there are plans. It ain't a democracy, friend, it's a literal military dictatorship, because in the heat of battle there's no time for the commander to explain herself, so her officers (and enlisted!) had damned well better have the habit of obedience to legal orders.
"But there were no spies!" But -BUT - the Resistance did not KNOW this. What they "knew" was that it was impossible to track ships through hyperspace, and jumping away should have rendered them safe (and remember, that's what Poe believed too, so his insistence on wrecking that one ship was stupid even from his POV). but the First Order fleet seemed to be following them anyway. Least hypothesis was that a mole in their midst was feeding the FO information. And hey, here's this guy whose last fleet action lost them their entire fighter escort, nosing around about the High Command's plans, just the way a spy would. The question should arise, was the loss of the fighters an accidental result of said insubordination - or was it a deliberate effort to reduce their defenses?
You should not confuse your omniscient audience view with what the characters know. And you should also be aware, if you want to critique military procedures, how exactly those military procedures work. We don't excuse disobedience, particularly disobedience that gets people killed, just because the perpetrator is "heroic".
I've actually seen military servicemen arguing over how Holdo is acting as a terrible commander in the situation and why any soldier with half a brain would not trust her. If some information is not able to be divulged it has to be made clear in a concise manner not, "You're beneath me I don't have to tell you TRIBBLE", that is the kind of leadership that causes mutinies, because the person in command should never have been put in command with an attitude like that. Honestly at this point I know we'll never agree, just like I mentioned earlier you seem to feel that Discovery and The Last Jedi are just beyond criticism and you ignore all aspects of it regardless of how in depth and well founded they are.
frankly, that entire fight at the start of TLJ was silly from a military standpoint, and this gives good reasons as to why, as well as gives suggestions as to how they COULD have gone about it instead
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
frankly, that entire fight at the start of TLJ was silly from a military standpoint, and this gives good reasons as to why, as well as gives suggestions as to how they COULD have gone about it instead
"You've seen". Dude, I've been - I was a nuclear-war planner in the USAF in the '80s. I had, well, let's just say a very high clearance level - not the absolute top, but not inconsiderable. And I can guarantee you that if I'd been aggressively insisting on data that wasn't necessary for my current assignment, especially data of a higher clearance level or on a program I hadn't been read into, I'd have been told to back down; if I hadn't backed down, I'd have had some time in the stockade to think it over. We didn't try to make flag officers tell us that there was a plan for anything in particular; we just presumed there was, and that we weren't always cleared to know it, and we shut up and soldiered. (Well, "airmanned", I guess, but it doesn't really sound the same, does it?)
My roommate served on the ground in Iraq, and it's his educated opinion that Poe was lucky he wasn't in the brig after that stunt in the beginning of the movie, and that he really should have been shot after he mutinied.
"You've seen". Dude, I've been - I was a nuclear-war planner in the USAF in the '80s. I had, well, let's just say a very high clearance level - not the absolute top, but not inconsiderable. And I can guarantee you that if I'd been aggressively insisting on data that wasn't necessary for my current assignment, especially data of a higher clearance level or on a program I hadn't been read into, I'd have been told to back down; if I hadn't backed down, I'd have had some time in the stockade to think it over. We didn't try to make flag officers tell us that there was a plan for anything in particular; we just presumed there was, and that we weren't always cleared to know it, and we shut up and soldiered. (Well, "airmanned", I guess, but it doesn't really sound the same, does it?)
My roommate served on the ground in Iraq, and it's his educated opinion that Poe was lucky he wasn't in the brig after that stunt in the beginning of the movie, and that he really should have been shot after he mutinied.
However, we know very little about the actual command hierarchy in the situation at hand _and_ the Resistance is not actually a formal military organization.
What we do know is that pretty much all the pilots in the battle in the beginning did follow Poe's orders, uncontested by anyone of them seemingly. Maybe you underestimate the amount of authority he had during the engagement?
If he didn't have the authority, but people did follow him anyway, that suggests that the situation in the Resistance is not at all as well organized and clear-cut as it should be in a "real" military. And that is something his superiors did fail to pick up. WHich is presumably why he was also able to start a mutiny aboard the ship.
I have to say it is a sign of failed leadership if the officers would let it get that far. (And note how it's different from Burnham's attempted mutiny - she tried to get people to follow her orders, but she failed. No one believed that she had command. Georgiou's failure to anticipate Burnham's rash behaviour is not ... good, but she clearly never lost the trust of the rest of her crew.)
No one looks good in there.
Which unfortunately includes the writers. They basically hand everyone the idiot ball. The whole telephone-joke on Hux, the First Order failing to launch defensive fighter squadrons, the First Orders decision to open fire on stationary ground targets instead of the fleeing ships, the First Order (or war profiteers) engineers developing a cruiser whose anti-fighter armnament can be disabled by a single X-Wing, Poe's pilots incapable of flying a bombing run leading to a cascade of self-destruction, Holdo's failure to understand the threat Poe poses to her authority, Leia's failure to realize that Poe's action might have been rash and iresponsible but in the end might have actually saved the lifes beause that heavy ship he destroyed clearly had guns that would have taken them out if it had followed them through the hyperspace jump. And Poe incapable of actually finding out what Holdo is planning despite having enough people loyal to him that he could risk starting a mutiny.
And it keeps going like that afterwards.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I don't have a problem with the fact Poe got busted for disobeying an order. My issue is with how Holdo, who was supposed to be some great war hero herself, basically just patted him on the head, said "don't worry", and ignored the fact that another hero, in this case Poe, that can inspire others to action is taking issue with the situation. Yea he may be a bit of a hothead, but he's a hothead with the respect of quite a few members of the crew.
The only time we really see Holdo actually being what she was described to be, is when she turned the Raddis to cover the escaping transports.
Honestly Holdo could have done a better job at quelling a potential mutiny if she didn't treat Poe like a little kid. She should have seen the powder keg before the fuse was even lit. Instead she totally ignored it until it blew for dramatic effect.
As for the Dreadnought "not" being a fleet killer... just because its meant for orbital bombardment doesn't mean it can't be turned on slow moving capital ships. Skilled gunners + computer assist = potentially anticipating where target ships will be, which in turn means it can be turned on ships.
yeah you really don't want to be the guy who gets people killed because the brass said "we're withdrawing" and you chose to stay and fight after your backup left. that's not being a hero, that's being an idiot.
Holdo's only mistake was in not slapping Poe in irons the first time he was insubbordinate to her. My brother-in-law, who was in an active gun battle in Baghdad while everyone in the US was watching a statue of Saddam get torn down, who survived the Abrams IFV he was driving getting blown up by enemy fire, would have been jailed and charged for talking to a Lt. like that, let alone a Flag officer.
My Grandfather, who served in WWII, Asian theatre, would have been shot. My 3 Uncles who served in Vietnam witnessed such discipline. 1 of those uncles later became a weapons designer working (on paper) for the Navy, with sigificant security clearance, he still can't just demand information he isn't cleared for and demanding ends in jail.
Like I said Holdo's only mistake was not putting that jackass in a cell.
I strongly suspect that your grandfather however wasn't instrumental in destroying the TRIBBLE Nuclear Program, or your uncles in the Vietnam nuclear program and stop it before they could nuke additional cities after they nuked Washington D.C... Nor where they involved in a secret mission to help bring back one of the greatest US magic-users.
People love to bring up real world military scenarios, but the real world military scenarios are often often miss the true exceptionalism common in TV shows and movies.
Poe wasn't just some regular hot shot pilot. Not to the resistance, not to Leia. There was a personal connection, and he had accomplished certain things that made it extremely unlikely he personally could be a spy. And we see he had a lot of clout in the Resistance that was beyond his rank. I don't think anyone here can claim of himself or family members having this kind of relationship to their superiors and comrades, or that they had this kind of influence on the course of a war.
This is just like "No way they'd give Kirk command of the Enterprise just for that"... How many cadets do we know in military history that managed to organize a bunch of other cadets so they could evade a trap that killed a lot of superior and highly experienced officers and their ships and blew up, say, California? And then went on with that cadet crew to stop the enemy that blew up California before he could blow up the state of Columbia? There aren't many examples for such feats, so no one should claim they would know what a "real" military or government would do in such a situation.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Actually... I think it was explained rather well by Spock. For all intents and purposes it is an Alternate Reality. HOW it came to be is basically a branching event, as described.
Agreed! This explanation offered by the filmmakers effectively summed up the new paradigm that we were presented with in that reboot. Personally I regretted their decision not to capitalize upon that premise and chart their own course in the follow up. Instead we got a ham-fisted and utterly unnecessary redo of Khan? I felt as if rogue Section 31 agent "John Harrison" and Starfleets rogue Section 31 Admiral Marcus were far more compelling a plotline. Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof opted not to trust their audience and although I felt that Beyond wasn't too bad (and also much better than the one that preceded it), as a result we seem to have lost the Kelvin film franchise now?
Actually... I think it was explained rather well by Spock. For all intents and purposes it is an Alternate Reality. HOW it came to be is basically a branching event, as described.
Agreed! This explanation offered by the filmmakers effectively summed up the new paradigm that we were presented with in that reboot. Personally I regretted their decision not to capitalize upon that premise and chart their own course in the follow up. Instead we got a ham-fisted and utterly unnecessary redo of Khan? I felt as if rogue Section 31 agent "John Harrison" and Starfleets rogue Section 31 Admiral Marcus were far more compelling a plotline. Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof opted not to trust their audience and although I felt that Beyond wasn't too bad (and also much better than the one that preceded it), as a result we seem to have lost the Kelvin film franchise now?
Besides the Kelvin Timeline existing after the end of Star Trek 2009 and the alternate realities created by The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact being erased by the end of their episode and movie, how is the Kelvin Timeline any different from the alternate reality created when Bones saved Edith Keeler in The City on the Edge of Forever or the alternate reality created when the Borg assimilated 21st Century Earth in First Contact? It is only by interviews from people involved with Star Trek 2009 where the branching timeline idea was introduced.
The Nerada traveling back in time and destroying the Kelvin was never undone. Nobody went backtime to prevent the timeline from splitting at that point. Meanwhile (if you'll pardon the expression), Kirk stopped McCoy from saving Keeler from that traffic accident, and the Ent-D crew managed to prevent the Borg infestation of Earth and rescued Cochrane's test flight of Earth's first warp drive, ensuring that it happened at the correct time to attract the attention of a passing Vulcan science vessel. Thus, those two timelines were aborted.
On a side note; I was recommended a Sci Fi series called 'The Expanse' last week by a friend. I'm usually very reluctant to try out any 'new' sci fi series' as they almost always disappoint me.
I thought this would be another disappointment, and the first three episodes bored me out of my skull but I carried on watching it in small chunks - similar to what I did with Discovery, hoping it would get better.
And get better it did, I just finished binge watching all three seasons, and it left me wanting more.
With Discovery, I never got that feeling of 'wanting more', wanting to know what happens next.
This is not a dig at Discovery by the way, just an observation about how some things leave you (well me) wanting more, - every single iteration of Star Trek - even Voyager left me wanting more, as bad as it was, the Doctor was so endearing I had to know the end of his story, but I felt nothing like that for any of the cast of Disc (except perhaps Saru).
But it takes all sorts to make the world go around!
The Nerada traveling back in time and destroying the Kelvin was never undone. Nobody went backtime to prevent the timeline from splitting at that point. Meanwhile (if you'll pardon the expression), Kirk stopped McCoy from saving Keeler from that traffic accident, and the Ent-D crew managed to prevent the Borg infestation of Earth and rescued Cochrane's test flight of Earth's first warp drive, ensuring that it happened at the correct time to attract the attention of a passing Vulcan science vessel. Thus, those two timelines were aborted.
And that is what I mentioned in my previous post. The only difference between the Kelvin Timeline and the alternate realities created in The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact were supposedly aborted while the Kelvin Timeline was never undone. In every other way, there is no noticeable difference between these alternate realities. The Enterprise crews managed to fix their timeline while old Spock was unable or unwilling to fix his timeline. Spock was in no shape to fix the timeline and it is likely that since he arrived years after Nero, then he was worried about the ethical ramifications of fixing the timeline.
But how do we know that those two timelines were aborted or that the Enterprise crew returned back to their original timeline? The Enterprise crews could have just went to an alternate reality where it is 99.9999999% identical to the original timeline when they 'fixed' the timeline. So either an alternate reality is created every time some major temporal event occurs resulting in there being 3 different alternate realities in First Contact, the original reality with no Borg on 21st Century Earth, the Assimilated Earth reality, and the new fixed reality where Borg attempted to assimilate Earth in the 21st Century, but failed or there has to be some other explanation for why there was no need for the Kelvin Timeline to be erased to preserve the Prime Timeline. However, as I have said before in other threads, each major temporal event creating new alternate realities removes any drama in stories like The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact since there was no need for the Enterprise crews to save the Federation. If there are unique circumstances why the Kelvin Timeline was preserved while the alternate realities in The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact were erased, then the story needs to explain why the Kelvin Timeline is special.
The real explanation? As has been stated numerous times, time travel in Star Trek follows the rules that the author of that particular episode has set out. No two time-travel incidents have worked out in precisely the same way - the rules of "City On the Edge of Forever", for instance, should have resulted in the immediate disappearance of the Enterprise in "Assignment: Earth".
Aside from that, in the wise words of William James, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all." If the timeline is 99.9999999% similar, then it's the same, for any sensible statement of "same". Other than that, you're just picking nits, like pointing out that the world Fry, Bender, and the Professor wound up in at the end of the Futurama episode "The Late Philip J. Fry" isn't really the same because everything is identical, but ten feet lower than it was.
Aside from that, in the wise words of William James, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all." If the timeline is 99.9999999% similar, then it's the same, for any sensible statement of "same". Other than that, you're just picking nits, like pointing out that the world Fry, Bender, and the Professor wound up in at the end of the Futurama episode "The Late Philip J. Fry" isn't really the same because everything is identical, but ten feet lower than it was.
It depends on the differences. That 0.0000001% difference could have an enormous effect on the future. It could be argued that First Contact in the original timeline was more idealistic while First Contact after First Contact was more pragmatic resulting in the creation of Section 31. Without the Borg, humans met one alien race that was friendly while with the Borg, humans met two alien races with one that was friendly and the other was hostile. Also there is Lily Sloane and Luther Sloan. Lily Sloane realized the joy and horror of alien life while Luther Sloan was the only Section 31 personnel that we knew of until Discovery. First Contact aired in November 1996 while Inquisition, the first appearance of Section 31, aired in April 1998.
With The City on the Edge of Forever, any differences between the original timeline and the restored timeline is pretty much nonexistent. There could be some weird butterfly effect due to Kirk bumping into someone which eventually causes some major change in the future, but it could only make for an interesting story and far more likely that bumping someone in the street or some other extremely minor change will change nothing.
The real explanation? As has been stated numerous times, time travel in Star Trek follows the rules that the author of that particular episode has set out. No two time-travel incidents have worked out in precisely the same way - the rules of "City On the Edge of Forever", for instance, should have resulted in the immediate disappearance of the Enterprise in "Assignment: Earth".
Aside from that, in the wise words of William James, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all." If the timeline is 99.9999999% similar, then it's the same, for any sensible statement of "same". Other than that, you're just picking nits, like pointing out that the world Fry, Bender, and the Professor wound up in at the end of the Futurama episode "The Late Philip J. Fry" isn't really the same because everything is identical, but ten feet lower than it was.
Actually, as far as the Kelvin split is concerned the real "real explanation" is that Paramount was legally able to create a new branch of Star Trek but not able to do anything that in any way constrained CBS should they decide to make a Star Trek series later (which of course they did). Rather than deal with the hassle they split it, and said up front that the 2009 spinoff was its own thing that did not in any way change the previously shown continuity of what is now called the prime universe.
They way that they justified it was to say that the red matter singularity was not like a normal one and (depending on who you listen to, the writing team apparently had differing opinions on the exact mechanism) either tunneled through to the past of an alternate reality with slightly different time rules, or else split off a branch in the past and the way it did it changed how time worked in that branch. The important point was that they agreed the "go back and fix it" schtick was permanently off the table as far as the Kelvin universe was concerned (which apparently the current Kelvin writers chose to ignore if the proposal for the fourth movie is actually what it looks like).
The real explanation? As has been stated numerous times, time travel in Star Trek follows the rules that the author of that particular episode has set out. No two time-travel incidents have worked out in precisely the same way - the rules of "City On the Edge of Forever", for instance, should have resulted in the immediate disappearance of the Enterprise in "Assignment: Earth".
Aside from that, in the wise words of William James, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all." If the timeline is 99.9999999% similar, then it's the same, for any sensible statement of "same". Other than that, you're just picking nits, like pointing out that the world Fry, Bender, and the Professor wound up in at the end of the Futurama episode "The Late Philip J. Fry" isn't really the same because everything is identical, but ten feet lower than it was.
Actually, as far as the Kelvin split is concerned the real "real explanation" is that Paramount was legally able to create a new branch of Star Trek but not able to do anything that in any way constrained CBS should they decide to make a Star Trek series later (which of course they did). Rather than deal with the hassle they split it, and said up front that the 2009 spinoff was its own thing that did not in any way change the previously shown continuity of what is now called the prime universe.
They way that they justified it was to say that the red matter singularity was not like a normal one and (depending on who you listen to, the writing team apparently had differing opinions on the exact mechanism) either tunneled through to the past of an alternate reality with slightly different time rules, or else split off a branch in the past and the way it did it changed how time worked in that branch. The important point was that they agreed the "go back and fix it" schtick was permanently off the table as far as the Kelvin universe was concerned (which apparently the current Kelvin writers chose to ignore if the proposal for the fourth movie is actually what it looks like).
Personally, I prefer that the Kelvin Timeline is open to the fan's interpretation rather than having to rely on an interview. The entire movie could be considered as a story where the hero failed to fix his reality since there is no reference to what happened to Spock's original reality after he entered the singularity for one fan while for another it is all set in a parallel universe so there is no temporal paradoxes to worry about, time travel creates new alternate realities, or whatever explanation a fan comes up with. Limiting it to just one interpretation limits the creativity of the fans trying to come up with their own explanation.
STO has decided with the Terminal Expanse mission that their interpretation of the Kelvin Timeline is that it is an alternative quantum universe that was influenced by the STO Universe's version of Spock and Nero that created a quantum rift between the STO Universe and the Kelvin Timeline Universe. STO also has its own interpretation of why Romulus was destroyed which will likely be different from the explanation provided by the upcoming Picard series.
Comments
There's certainly an element of this. Such as suggesting the cinematography of the show is "superficial". Patently nonsense. That's like saying the sound direction on a radio show is "superficial". Television is a visual medium: lighting (just on example) is crucial to setting the mood of any given scene. For certain people to imply engaging with the show visually is "shallow" is absurd.
But, as they wish, I shall now set the brightness of my TV to 0, so that my experience of the content is not sullied by anything as crass and uncultured as visuals on a television screen.
And yes, action and drama are genres. This may be a revolutionary concept, but it is possible for a TV show to have more than one genre. And yes, DSC does lean heavily towards the action and drama genres. So did DS9, and VOY, but not to quite the same extent (probably due to the more episodic format). TOS leaned more on a mix of action and (for lack of a better term) "space western" for its genres.
All phoenix was saying is that DSC has been written more like the films, which have almost always had a heavy action focus (TMP and TFF being notable exceptions). I happen to agree with them. It has not been written in the same way as any previous Trek series. This is not to lump all pre-DSC Trek in one group: no Trek series was written the same way as another. But you cannot use the commonality of difference to say difference doesn't exist! That is a strawman, and does nothing to help the reputation of those of us who actually like DSC.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Because they didn't listen to one damn word Yoda said in TESB - especially his dismissal of Luke's goal of finding "a great Jedi warrior." "'Great warrior'? Heh. Wars not make one great!"
(Also, as noted above, most of them are unaware that when your CAG refuses an order to retreat and winds up costing you your entire fighter defense and all the bomber squadrons in order to take out one ship that was replaced by the next scene, courts martial are generally in order. Leia was extremely lenient in permitting him to remain on duty, albeit after a reduction in rank. Then, later, when they were being pursued through hyperspace, something thought to be impossible, the reasonable conclusion was that there was a mole somewhere spilling the beans to the FO - and hey, here's this insubordinate officer who got all his flightmates killed and put you into this situation, demanding full access to classified data like he's got some kind of right to it. He's lucky he wasn't executed on suspicion of being a spy at that point. Oh, then he leads a full-on mutiny, but after that gets put down, all he gets is a dressing-down from Holdo. You wanna talk Mary Sues? <rolleyes> But these fanbois are mad because Poe isn't the hero of that story.)
The ship wasn't replaced next scene, it was a fleet killer. They had more star destroyers yes, but had Poe not had them destroy it, then in the next scene the resistance would be dead because the ship would've wiped them out.
He's also not asking for classified data either, he just wants to know what the general plan is, he is a resistance hero after all, having just saved all of their lives.
He saved their lives with a delaying action, yes - and promptly got a large number of them killed by not returning when they were safe. And he was largely responsible for the deaths of the majority of the escapees later, as it was his mutiny that gave up the escape plan. Had he just shut up and soldiered, they would have been fine.
Also, since he was no longer CAG, he was not entitled to know anything except his orders. I dunno, maybe you have to have served to understand, but he was not authorized to even know if there was a plan. What you don't know, you can't give away.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Had he not blown it up, the fleet killer would have followed them on the chase afterwards, and been able to blow up every single rebel ship effortlessly as they limped along. Poe saved them all.
And Shadow its a fleet killed because of those whatever the hell they are rail guns on the bottom of their ship, which seem to be implied to be able to one shot any ship they target.
And there was no need to hide anything, there were no first order spies, and he's a hero. That'd be like not telling luke Skywalker what the plan to attack the death star is and just dropping him on Endor
and as we all know, 3D combat does not exist in sci-fi - it always occurs on a flat plane
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
"But there were no spies!" But -BUT - the Resistance did not KNOW this. What they "knew" was that it was impossible to track ships through hyperspace, and jumping away should have rendered them safe (and remember, that's what Poe believed too, so his insistence on wrecking that one ship was stupid even from his POV). but the First Order fleet seemed to be following them anyway. Least hypothesis was that a mole in their midst was feeding the FO information. And hey, here's this guy whose last fleet action lost them their entire fighter escort, nosing around about the High Command's plans, just the way a spy would. The question should arise, was the loss of the fighters an accidental result of said insubordination - or was it a deliberate effort to reduce their defenses?
You should not confuse your omniscient audience view with what the characters know. And you should also be aware, if you want to critique military procedures, how exactly those military procedures work. We don't excuse disobedience, particularly disobedience that gets people killed, just because the perpetrator is "heroic".
I've actually seen military servicemen arguing over how Holdo is acting as a terrible commander in the situation and why any soldier with half a brain would not trust her. If some information is not able to be divulged it has to be made clear in a concise manner not, "You're beneath me I don't have to tell you TRIBBLE", that is the kind of leadership that causes mutinies, because the person in command should never have been put in command with an attitude like that. Honestly at this point I know we'll never agree, just like I mentioned earlier you seem to feel that Discovery and The Last Jedi are just beyond criticism and you ignore all aspects of it regardless of how in depth and well founded they are.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Exactly, there is no point defending anything in the movie from a military standpoint.
My roommate served on the ground in Iraq, and it's his educated opinion that Poe was lucky he wasn't in the brig after that stunt in the beginning of the movie, and that he really should have been shot after he mutinied.
What we do know is that pretty much all the pilots in the battle in the beginning did follow Poe's orders, uncontested by anyone of them seemingly. Maybe you underestimate the amount of authority he had during the engagement?
If he didn't have the authority, but people did follow him anyway, that suggests that the situation in the Resistance is not at all as well organized and clear-cut as it should be in a "real" military. And that is something his superiors did fail to pick up. WHich is presumably why he was also able to start a mutiny aboard the ship.
I have to say it is a sign of failed leadership if the officers would let it get that far. (And note how it's different from Burnham's attempted mutiny - she tried to get people to follow her orders, but she failed. No one believed that she had command. Georgiou's failure to anticipate Burnham's rash behaviour is not ... good, but she clearly never lost the trust of the rest of her crew.)
No one looks good in there.
Which unfortunately includes the writers. They basically hand everyone the idiot ball. The whole telephone-joke on Hux, the First Order failing to launch defensive fighter squadrons, the First Orders decision to open fire on stationary ground targets instead of the fleeing ships, the First Order (or war profiteers) engineers developing a cruiser whose anti-fighter armnament can be disabled by a single X-Wing, Poe's pilots incapable of flying a bombing run leading to a cascade of self-destruction, Holdo's failure to understand the threat Poe poses to her authority, Leia's failure to realize that Poe's action might have been rash and iresponsible but in the end might have actually saved the lifes beause that heavy ship he destroyed clearly had guns that would have taken them out if it had followed them through the hyperspace jump. And Poe incapable of actually finding out what Holdo is planning despite having enough people loyal to him that he could risk starting a mutiny.
And it keeps going like that afterwards.
The only time we really see Holdo actually being what she was described to be, is when she turned the Raddis to cover the escaping transports.
Honestly Holdo could have done a better job at quelling a potential mutiny if she didn't treat Poe like a little kid. She should have seen the powder keg before the fuse was even lit. Instead she totally ignored it until it blew for dramatic effect.
As for the Dreadnought "not" being a fleet killer... just because its meant for orbital bombardment doesn't mean it can't be turned on slow moving capital ships. Skilled gunners + computer assist = potentially anticipating where target ships will be, which in turn means it can be turned on ships.
My character Tsin'xing
I strongly suspect that your grandfather however wasn't instrumental in destroying the TRIBBLE Nuclear Program, or your uncles in the Vietnam nuclear program and stop it before they could nuke additional cities after they nuked Washington D.C... Nor where they involved in a secret mission to help bring back one of the greatest US magic-users.
People love to bring up real world military scenarios, but the real world military scenarios are often often miss the true exceptionalism common in TV shows and movies.
Poe wasn't just some regular hot shot pilot. Not to the resistance, not to Leia. There was a personal connection, and he had accomplished certain things that made it extremely unlikely he personally could be a spy. And we see he had a lot of clout in the Resistance that was beyond his rank. I don't think anyone here can claim of himself or family members having this kind of relationship to their superiors and comrades, or that they had this kind of influence on the course of a war.
This is just like "No way they'd give Kirk command of the Enterprise just for that"... How many cadets do we know in military history that managed to organize a bunch of other cadets so they could evade a trap that killed a lot of superior and highly experienced officers and their ships and blew up, say, California? And then went on with that cadet crew to stop the enemy that blew up California before he could blow up the state of Columbia? There aren't many examples for such feats, so no one should claim they would know what a "real" military or government would do in such a situation.
Agreed! This explanation offered by the filmmakers effectively summed up the new paradigm that we were presented with in that reboot. Personally I regretted their decision not to capitalize upon that premise and chart their own course in the follow up. Instead we got a ham-fisted and utterly unnecessary redo of Khan? I felt as if rogue Section 31 agent "John Harrison" and Starfleets rogue Section 31 Admiral Marcus were far more compelling a plotline. Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof opted not to trust their audience and although I felt that Beyond wasn't too bad (and also much better than the one that preceded it), as a result we seem to have lost the Kelvin film franchise now?
Besides the Kelvin Timeline existing after the end of Star Trek 2009 and the alternate realities created by The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact being erased by the end of their episode and movie, how is the Kelvin Timeline any different from the alternate reality created when Bones saved Edith Keeler in The City on the Edge of Forever or the alternate reality created when the Borg assimilated 21st Century Earth in First Contact? It is only by interviews from people involved with Star Trek 2009 where the branching timeline idea was introduced.
I thought this would be another disappointment, and the first three episodes bored me out of my skull but I carried on watching it in small chunks - similar to what I did with Discovery, hoping it would get better.
And get better it did, I just finished binge watching all three seasons, and it left me wanting more.
With Discovery, I never got that feeling of 'wanting more', wanting to know what happens next.
This is not a dig at Discovery by the way, just an observation about how some things leave you (well me) wanting more, - every single iteration of Star Trek - even Voyager left me wanting more, as bad as it was, the Doctor was so endearing I had to know the end of his story, but I felt nothing like that for any of the cast of Disc (except perhaps Saru).
But it takes all sorts to make the world go around!
And that is what I mentioned in my previous post. The only difference between the Kelvin Timeline and the alternate realities created in The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact were supposedly aborted while the Kelvin Timeline was never undone. In every other way, there is no noticeable difference between these alternate realities. The Enterprise crews managed to fix their timeline while old Spock was unable or unwilling to fix his timeline. Spock was in no shape to fix the timeline and it is likely that since he arrived years after Nero, then he was worried about the ethical ramifications of fixing the timeline.
But how do we know that those two timelines were aborted or that the Enterprise crew returned back to their original timeline? The Enterprise crews could have just went to an alternate reality where it is 99.9999999% identical to the original timeline when they 'fixed' the timeline. So either an alternate reality is created every time some major temporal event occurs resulting in there being 3 different alternate realities in First Contact, the original reality with no Borg on 21st Century Earth, the Assimilated Earth reality, and the new fixed reality where Borg attempted to assimilate Earth in the 21st Century, but failed or there has to be some other explanation for why there was no need for the Kelvin Timeline to be erased to preserve the Prime Timeline. However, as I have said before in other threads, each major temporal event creating new alternate realities removes any drama in stories like The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact since there was no need for the Enterprise crews to save the Federation. If there are unique circumstances why the Kelvin Timeline was preserved while the alternate realities in The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact were erased, then the story needs to explain why the Kelvin Timeline is special.
Aside from that, in the wise words of William James, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all." If the timeline is 99.9999999% similar, then it's the same, for any sensible statement of "same". Other than that, you're just picking nits, like pointing out that the world Fry, Bender, and the Professor wound up in at the end of the Futurama episode "The Late Philip J. Fry" isn't really the same because everything is identical, but ten feet lower than it was.
It depends on the differences. That 0.0000001% difference could have an enormous effect on the future. It could be argued that First Contact in the original timeline was more idealistic while First Contact after First Contact was more pragmatic resulting in the creation of Section 31. Without the Borg, humans met one alien race that was friendly while with the Borg, humans met two alien races with one that was friendly and the other was hostile. Also there is Lily Sloane and Luther Sloan. Lily Sloane realized the joy and horror of alien life while Luther Sloan was the only Section 31 personnel that we knew of until Discovery. First Contact aired in November 1996 while Inquisition, the first appearance of Section 31, aired in April 1998.
With The City on the Edge of Forever, any differences between the original timeline and the restored timeline is pretty much nonexistent. There could be some weird butterfly effect due to Kirk bumping into someone which eventually causes some major change in the future, but it could only make for an interesting story and far more likely that bumping someone in the street or some other extremely minor change will change nothing.
Actually, as far as the Kelvin split is concerned the real "real explanation" is that Paramount was legally able to create a new branch of Star Trek but not able to do anything that in any way constrained CBS should they decide to make a Star Trek series later (which of course they did). Rather than deal with the hassle they split it, and said up front that the 2009 spinoff was its own thing that did not in any way change the previously shown continuity of what is now called the prime universe.
They way that they justified it was to say that the red matter singularity was not like a normal one and (depending on who you listen to, the writing team apparently had differing opinions on the exact mechanism) either tunneled through to the past of an alternate reality with slightly different time rules, or else split off a branch in the past and the way it did it changed how time worked in that branch. The important point was that they agreed the "go back and fix it" schtick was permanently off the table as far as the Kelvin universe was concerned (which apparently the current Kelvin writers chose to ignore if the proposal for the fourth movie is actually what it looks like).
Personally, I prefer that the Kelvin Timeline is open to the fan's interpretation rather than having to rely on an interview. The entire movie could be considered as a story where the hero failed to fix his reality since there is no reference to what happened to Spock's original reality after he entered the singularity for one fan while for another it is all set in a parallel universe so there is no temporal paradoxes to worry about, time travel creates new alternate realities, or whatever explanation a fan comes up with. Limiting it to just one interpretation limits the creativity of the fans trying to come up with their own explanation.
STO has decided with the Terminal Expanse mission that their interpretation of the Kelvin Timeline is that it is an alternative quantum universe that was influenced by the STO Universe's version of Spock and Nero that created a quantum rift between the STO Universe and the Kelvin Timeline Universe. STO also has its own interpretation of why Romulus was destroyed which will likely be different from the explanation provided by the upcoming Picard series.