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New US loot box bill
rc5150420
Member Posts: 57 Arc User
in Ten Forward
I just wonder how this new loot box bill will effect STO if at all
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rc5150420
Member Posts: 57 Arc User
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Relax, no DOOOM! on the horizon.
Actually I've not ignored the wording of the bill. It even states what type of lootboxes and the exclusions. It does not state 'all lootboxes, no matter what they contain' anywhere. It can be argued quite readily that STO's lootboxes are not going to be included in the ban, IF it passes.
I work in the casino industry, take my word for it, loot boxes are gambling.
If it does pass and STO's lootboxes are kept out of the ban I doubt cryptic would just do nothing at all because there would be a risk that further bills may pass encompassing even more. And also arguments could be made for STO's lootboxes since they contain in game advantages (some ships in them have very powerful traits or other bonuses that make them objectively superior to other ships) to put them under the targetted pay to win stuff that they also wish to ban. Cryptic could do nothing at all but it would be stupid to not look into other ways to change the system to avoid a ban if another bill comes into play targetting even more of the industry.
Yep. The bill is designed to protect minors and targets games that only sell items for RL cask exclusively.
In STO you can earn Zen in game by playing and converting Dilithuim; so you don't necessarily have to use RL cash exclusively to get Zen or Master Keys. (Keys are also made available by Players for in game currency (EC)).
Also, IF you buy Zen with a Credit Card; as long as the name on the Card/Pay Pall/Whatever account that has funds matches the name the account was registered with, the person doing the purchasing is 18+ (or he wouldn't have a credit card/Pay Pal account/Whatever) so the new statue doesn't apply here either.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Technically though you don't. Someone somewhere paid money for that Zen most likely.(a very tiny amount of zen on the market is from lifetime subs which you do also have to pay for) So it would likely be at risk to fall under the bills sway.
Not really. First, you're ignoring the M rating. Second, content rating and age restrictions are different things. STO could keep its Teen(?) rating and still lock out minors from buying keys or if needed in the final version of the bill from playing the game at all.
I'm guessing the majority of sales come from adults, so neither option spells DOOOM!
There is a different between the M rating and an adults only rating. Adults only means that the game legally can only be sold to adults and people above the age of 18. There are absolutely no exceptions. An M rating means the game is designed for adults but really anyone can buy it. And yes only being available to people above the age of 18 doesn't spell doom but its likely to cut into a significant portion of revenue for a company and many people who are adults won't buy games rated adults only. In face for physical games most stores won't even sell an adults only game.
And you can't keep a teen rating if something in the game is decided to make it Adults only. Overwatch wouldn't magically become immune to prosecution by making it so you could only buy lootboxes if you're an adult, the actual inclusion of them would automatically make the game adults only.
"M stands for Massive, because there is so much content"
"M means Major Fun"
"M means it is approved for Minors"
If we do end up with an AO rating the kids will just lie their way into it too.
We come in peace, SHOOT TO KILL!
https://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.aspx
"TEEN
Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language."
ESRB ratings are for game content, not for enforcement of gambling laws. Content ratings are used to guide sales, but there is no requirement that a game rated Teen must be available for purchase by teens. There is no requirement that a game that is not sold to teens must have an AO content rating.
STO could include age verification without carrying an AO game content rating.
I see what *might* support your contention:
"ADULTS ONLY
Content suitable only for adults ages 18 and up. May include prolonged scenes of intense violence, graphic sexual content and/or gambling with real currency."
Except that this bill does NOT attempt to define boxes as being gambling in a legally regulated sense, just as something that must be kept from minors.
If the bill passes then simulated gambling would be increased in rating. The whol bill protecting children means that simulated gambling would give the game an AO rating. Unlike the other ratings AO does prevent the sale of the game to people under the age of 18
Yes, they are. And here's four articles/studies about lootboxes being linked to and being considered gambling.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0206767
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-05-06-study-sees-link-between-loot-boxes-and-gambling
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/21/loot-boxes-part-of-growing-child-gambling-problem-reveals-uk-study-8164308/
https://www.psypost.org/2019/03/two-large-studies-have-found-a-link-between-loot-box-spending-and-problem-gambling-53341
IF Cryptic requires the name of the card/whatever account used to be the same as the name of the STO game account, any Zen purchased was by someone over 18 <--- So, no, that wouldn't fall under the Bill's pervue as by that (and the ways minors can acquire Keys in game for in game currency) - the RMT is 'walled off' from the minor as the bill requires. (But yes, Cryptic would have to stricly adopt such a policy - IE the name on the card and the game account must match exactly; or provide some means of online age verification and make underage accounts UNABLE to make RMTs, etc.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I disagree, but neither of us are lawyers.
The M rating allows people to to play Grand Theft Auto where you murder people, steal cars, rob banks, deal drugs, etc. so something a person does in-game being illegal does not force an AO rating.
The bill, if it passes, blocks marketing loot boxes to minors. As I said above, just blocking minors from making purchases or even from playing the game DOES NOT require the ESRB to change the content rating to AO.
We're going in circles though so perhaps we should just agree to disagree.
The last sentence is very pertinent. This bill isn't being presented in anyway with gambling terminology in it's text. The legal definition of gambling is basically 'any game of chance where there is a chance of real life assets being lost'. This does not describe a lootbox, as it's more aptly a 'guaranteed prize raffle'.
Needless to say, there is nothing in the lootboxes that gives an advantage that cannot be acquired without paying cash for it, there are in-game methods for acquiring the keys (irrespective of if another person paid for them and placed them on the market, or converted Dil to Zen for. The Bill does not prevent a proxy-method, nor make it illegal, in this case) and there is barely an competition in STO because it's not promoted as such, nor a MOBA or other sense of P2W such as the other ST licenses such ST:Alien Domain or Starfleet Command (on Android). Everything bar LTS on PC is acquirable in far less time than having to level and base build in those games.
As someone who has qualified in Business Law, run Pubs and Clubs, handled contractual disputes etc, I can see a number of ways this won't apply to the type of boxes in STO, simply because the items can be classified as cosmetic, or providing a different flavour of weaponry etc. Just because it has a person's 'must-have' doesn't mean it's illegal either. Some people just don't like the odds of the top prize in a guaranteed prize pool.
There's also a hint that the game itself may get a pass because it's free and doesn't restrict gameplay. It certainly can be easy to prove in court how easy it is to acquire Zen through only F2P means.
Unfortunately the kind of people who need to see those tend to ignore the data inside them. I've brought this up before and people just keep defending the lootboxes.
It would be much harder for kids to lie into them because
A. The majority of stores absolutely refuse to sell AO games because the few that have existed don't sell well and the store is afraid of looking bad. I used to work at a walmart and talked with some of the veterans of the company there about it.
B. Online it is much easier for a kid to lie about an AO rating to be sure, but if the account on a console is under 18 the store either, wouldn't advertise the game for that account, or wouldn't allow it to be sold to that account period.
C. If a parent made their kids account over the age of 18 for whatever reason that's on the parent for lying for their kids.
You're ignoring the fact if the bill passed the definition of the ratings would be forced to change. If lootboxes were banned so only adults could buy them, then they'd be forced to change the rating over all, Teen would no longer include simulated gambling, that would be busted up to part of the AO rating and therefore games including it would be forced to beef their ratings up to 18, or remove the lootboxes entirely. And even cosmetic doesn't matter, again this bill is targetting games like Overwatch a game with only COSMETIC lootboxes. Its because of their predatory nature not the CONTENT inside the lootboxes. Their attempts to target pay to win are a seperate thing entirely.
Coming in here with the doom and gloom about how this law or that law is going to drop the hammer on STOs loot boxes in an attempt to scare Cryptic into changing their loot boxes has never worked in the past, and it won't work in the future.
Face it, Cryptic/PWI has lawyers that pay close attention to such things and that are, you know, actual lawyers.
I wouldn't consider this doom and gloom at all. And you know actual game companies are terrified of this bill. Doesn't matter what lawyers you got the law is the law.
Of course if something like this passes it wouldn't mean doom for most games. STO could easily survive without loot boxes as could a great many games.
Some games like Fifa might get wrecked by it because of how those games are designed but that's mostly just games designed around lootboxes entirely.
Maybe if you're a good boy, and wish really, really hard, your dream of banning the big, bad, evil lootbox will come true.
Moved to Ten Forward, because this isn't about the game, it's about legislation. /Moved
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That's fair since I think the thread really should have been in off topic from the start but also you shouldn't be snarky about this or really anything. Its kind of a bad look.