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More boxes and shinnies but where is the real BEEF (no more TRUE CONTENT)?

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Mostly re-skinning, reshuffling content, reusing content, rearranging content, requires less developers.
    The only reskinning/reshuffle of content was Peril over Pahvo, one TFO.
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating new ships and items is re-skinning current ones and give them different parameters.
    This is so backwards and nonsensical its hilarious. That isn't how new ships or items are made. These new times use new models and textures, made specifically for them, which makes them literally not reskins by any measure
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating real new concepts, functionality, gameplay requires more effort. And that has been very sparse.
    Not really. Every new enemy type since like the Tholians has had new gameplay mechanics, and we see new ideas in TFOs like Operation Reposte.

    But still every so called new enemy and tfo feels the same. I go in and kill it. Repeat it for the marks or endeavor and log off.
    That's because every time they make any enemy anything more than floating HP sacks, people whine that it's "too hard" and "annoying" that an enemy can actually do something besides die. Same for any mission where you actually have to do something besides kill helpless rubber ducks or wait out a timer. And Cryptic doesn't dare tell them to learn to play better and/or buy better stuff.

    That's true. Gravity Kills, Tzenkethi Front, Days of Doom (even back when it wasn't bugged) were received rather poorly because they require some basic level of coordination between players and not just spacebar hammering.

    In the end, most players will always gravitate towards queues that offer the best time/effort-reward ratio. More challenging TFOs will remain the exception UNLESS they start scaling rewards according to difficulty and time investment.

    There are countless ways for cryptic to make adjustments to their map design philosophy but they won't.

    - Tzenkethi front is a good map and the default to go to option for the respective marks no matter what difficulty. Could be that weak teams avoid it and mixed teams dont form often as elite players don’t feel like carrying the weight for all but in good groups the map is encouraging, fun and has a fitting effort reward ratio.

    - Days of doom is kind of the worst map in game. With autocompletion for AFKing in Easy mode and being strictly time gated on Elite this map is the opposite of the former one. Why in the world should anybody in game play this nonsens no matter how good or weak he is? The competitor for the marks here is Miners Instabilities - a great map - by the way.

    - Gravity kills as a mix thereof. New elements, no strict time gate and auto completion on the + side but 3 times to do the same stuff repetitively and an un-lucrative "carry others factor" for good players on the - side. I only play it if I dont have to transport 30 particles for an incompetent group. 6-9 is something I'd be willing to do.

    It would be easy for me to advise cryptic to adjust them to make them played by a lot more players without limiting myself to pew pew advise. but I certainly can't blame anybody that they avoid this content the way it is now.

    This has nothing to do with lack of interest in teamplay or challange of the playerbase. It's just a matter of bad game design choices. ;)
    I'd say all of them are good missions, as missions, even though both Tzenkethi Front and Days of Doom are complete nonsense storywise.

    TF's cluster of enemy bases right next to ours is ridiculous, as is the bases' inexplicable invulnerability to normal weapons and the players' inability to fire the protomatter bombs while under attack. But the only mechanical problem is the minor possibility that all the bombs get snagged by clueless noobs who won't use them (it should spawn at least 5 bombs to avoid that).

    Days of Doom's story actively rejects both obvious emergent tactics (if it needs a dreadnought warp core to kill, why can't a player in a dreadnought just kamikaze it?) and the past storyline events of the game (it's the third Planet Killer we destroy and none of the others required dreadnought warp cores). It also features romulans that try their darndest to futilely defend the invicible planet killer from the little warp cores that only slow it down, instead of attacking the factory that's building the big one. But as a mission it works reasonably well. I don't remember if it's auto-win but will take your word for it, so that's the only black mark for it.

    Gravity Kills is just great. The space magic particles are a bit funny, but logically consistent. It has interesting unique mechanics, a reasonable difficulty curve vis-a-vis falling into the black hole while trying to fetch particles and it's neither autowin nor susceptible to sabotage by clueless/troll players. In fact, even the just-shoot-everything players are actually useful in it, by drawing aggro away from peeps collecting particles.

    But really, what they like most (if not all) non-event queues fail at is reason to play. They simply don't give anything that people couldn't get easier somewhere else, so people don't play them much.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Mostly re-skinning, reshuffling content, reusing content, rearranging content, requires less developers.
    The only reskinning/reshuffle of content was Peril over Pahvo, one TFO.
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating new ships and items is re-skinning current ones and give them different parameters.
    This is so backwards and nonsensical its hilarious. That isn't how new ships or items are made. These new times use new models and textures, made specifically for them, which makes them literally not reskins by any measure
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating real new concepts, functionality, gameplay requires more effort. And that has been very sparse.
    Not really. Every new enemy type since like the Tholians has had new gameplay mechanics, and we see new ideas in TFOs like Operation Reposte.

    But still every so called new enemy and tfo feels the same. I go in and kill it. Repeat it for the marks or endeavor and log off.
    That's because every time they make any enemy anything more than floating HP sacks, people whine that it's "too hard" and "annoying" that an enemy can actually do something besides die. Same for any mission where you actually have to do something besides kill helpless rubber ducks or wait out a timer. And Cryptic doesn't dare tell them to learn to play better and/or buy better stuff.

    Yeah - but often those complaining about how "annoying" or "too hard" something is are the type of player who want something for nothing anyway.

    I'm talking the "Round 5 and quit" players in Sompek types
    The players who AFK through Mirror Invasion and whine that the timer made them wait for the reward they got for doing literally nothing.
    The players who bemoaned the changes to CCA, as it longer rewarded them for simply showing up and waiting for everyone else to kill the CE in 20 seconds.
    The players who AFK'ed the recent Pavho TFO event.
    The players who sulk about having to play Featured TFO's because they just expect to be rewarded for simply logging into the game.

    It doesn't apply to anyone here - but there ARE players who want everything for nothing and the game does indulge that attitude to a degree.

    Describes almost everything I hate about this game! :lol:

    But as alluded to, if something requires effort, a minority complain and find anyway to exploit the lack of AFK detection sophistication in the game.

    But as I said earlier, new episodes and new TFO's are undeniably new content. They are not reskins, with exception of Peril Over Pavho. How anyone can say over 14 new episodes, numerous TFO's and a Quadrant based Battlezone et al, in the past 12 months is not enough is mind-boggling, considering the effort required just to make a new episode. It's far easier to make a TV show of 26 episodes in a nine months than it is to program a new episode every month. I haven't seen one episode that is a reskin/rehash either.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    We had years go buy with nothing. Very few lockboxes, no missions, and in fact very little content. Then we got LOR. Which was awesome at the time, but the devs explained it took years to get it together. And players complained. Lull started again after that and I think 1.5 or 2 years later we got T6 and Delta. Again, HUGE drop all at once. And players complained. So they switched it up.

    Now we have been sitting on almost 3 years with a ton of new ships coming out every couple of months, and new missions (albeit 1 - 3 at a time) coming out every couple of months instead. Since Delta, we have had I think 5 mini arcs, the Temporal mini expansion, VIL mini expansion, and now TRIBBLE mini (mini) expansion.
    Now, out of curiosity, let's compare this with the famed 800-pound-gorilla of MMOs, WoW. With the massively larger budget and staff Blizzard has available:

    World of Warcraft: Nov. 23, 2004
    First expansion, The Burning Crusade: Jan. 16, 2007 (2 yrs 2 months later)
    Second expansion, Wrath of the Lich King: Nov. 13, 2008 (1 yr 10 months later)
    Third expansion, Cataclysm: Dec. 7, 2010 (2 yrs 1 month later)
    Fourth expansion, Mists of Pandera: Sept. 25, 2012 (1 yr 2 months later)
    Fifth expansion, Warlords of Draenor: Nov. 14, 2014 (2 yrs 2 months later)
    Sixth expansion, Legion: Aug. 30, 2016 (1 yr 9 months later)
    Seventh expansion, Battle for Azeroth: Aug 14, 2018 (2 yrs later)

    So, as you can see, even WoW can only do expansions once every two years, about. I don't recall anything similar to our new TFOs popping up between, either; during my time playing the game, everything new came out in an expansion, with no changes between. And while I did drop out of the game shortly after Cataclysm and thus can't comment on the later expansions, that one was almost entirely "reskinning" of existing assets, aside from adding playable worgen. (Yes, the world was "broken" by the Cataclysm - but in practice that mostly just meant repainting parts of the world, aside from Thousand Needles changing from a desert region to a flooded area.) Oh, and until January of 2018, each of those expansions cost an extra sixty bucks, aside from the monthly subscription fee, while STO doesn't have a subscription fee and drops each and every expansion for free. (The Battle for Azeroth will still cost you fifty bucks on top of the sub, however. Figure that's going to be the pattern going forward, as well - making games ain't free.)

    Point of contention WoW rolls out content constantly over the life of the expansion, for instance in BFA they've added a full raid, a mini raid, they have 2 new zones coming soon with more raids in them in 8.2 and will have more content in 8.25 and 8.3 will feature another raid and more story.. Even older expansions had content drops as they progressed over the 1-2 years they where live, nothing was ever here it is and it's done. Even vanilla for instance launched with Molten core as the raid, expanded to Black wing lair, and went to Ahn'Qiraj as its final raid with each raid having accompanying story and quests to do.
    I've played WoW - spent quite a lot of money there, too. So, using the criteria of the OP (note: I'm not saying I agree with the OP, I'm saying these are the terms of the OP's argument), none of this is "new content", because it all consists of "go here, kill these things, come back." (What TVTropes calls 20 Bear Asses missions, with the added fun that the things you kill don't always have the body parts needed for the mission - my least favorites tended to be the lower-level missions requiring one to fetch a given number of livers from those warthog-like creatures that somehow survive without any livers.)

    In fact, almost every mission I played in that game (and I started just after Burning Crusade dropped, and didn't quit until after the Cataclysm) was "go here, kill a given number of things, come back". There was a thin veneer of competition between the factions, which wasn't helped by the fact that the story implied that the Horde were actually the good guys (they'd rebelled against their evil masters, the Alliance rejected them because of massive prejudice, and the Horde banded together to stay in practice and keep their Alliance rivals in practice for combat on the inevitable day the Legion should return) but the players kept insisting that the Horde had to be Evil Bad Guys because obviously the ugly green fellows with tusks who oppose the Aryan ideals running Stormwind must be Evil. (Okay, okay, maybe the Forsaken could lay claim to the "evil" title, but mostly because of the way their leadership handles things.) Hell, look at the reason given for the Tauren joining the Horde - a peaceful race, but they came into conflict with the centaurs over grazing regions, and since the centaurs were all buddy-buddy with the humans, the tauren have to be Bad Guys.

    So my statement stands - the closest to "content" by the OP's definition comes only when an expansion drops, and even then it's still mostly the same stuff. (I found the story fairly intriguing, actually, and much like here, most of my annoyance came from silly low-level missions and other players who refused to read any of the text in the game.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starcruiser#3423 starcruiser Member Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Comments self moderated normal-1.gif​​
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Mostly re-skinning, reshuffling content, reusing content, rearranging content, requires less developers.
    The only reskinning/reshuffle of content was Peril over Pahvo, one TFO.
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating new ships and items is re-skinning current ones and give them different parameters.
    This is so backwards and nonsensical its hilarious. That isn't how new ships or items are made. These new times use new models and textures, made specifically for them, which makes them literally not reskins by any measure
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating real new concepts, functionality, gameplay requires more effort. And that has been very sparse.
    Not really. Every new enemy type since like the Tholians has had new gameplay mechanics, and we see new ideas in TFOs like Operation Reposte.

    But still every so called new enemy and tfo feels the same. I go in and kill it. Repeat it for the marks or endeavor and log off.
    That's because every time they make any enemy anything more than floating HP sacks, people whine that it's "too hard" and "annoying" that an enemy can actually do something besides die. Same for any mission where you actually have to do something besides kill helpless rubber ducks or wait out a timer. And Cryptic doesn't dare tell them to learn to play better and/or buy better stuff.

    Yeah - but often those complaining about how "annoying" or "too hard" something is are the type of player who want something for nothing anyway.

    I'm talking the "Round 5 and quit" players in Sompek types
    The players who AFK through Mirror Invasion and whine that the timer made them wait for the reward they got for doing literally nothing.
    The players who bemoaned the changes to CCA, as it longer rewarded them for simply showing up and waiting for everyone else to kill the CE in 20 seconds.
    The players who AFK'ed the recent Pavho TFO event.
    The players who sulk about having to play Featured TFO's because they just expect to be rewarded for simply logging into the game.

    It doesn't apply to anyone here - but there ARE players who want everything for nothing and the game does indulge that attitude to a degree.

    I've seen this myself. People proudly AFKing something and complaining when they have to sit and wait.

    If I go into a TFO I'm going to do my darnedest to help get things done. I see no reason to just go in and sit. That's no fun at all and I go into the game to have fun, not sit and wait out a timer.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Yea. I don't go into an STF just to sit out a timer. I'm gonna do things. The only time I would do anything like that is if everyone agress to a 5 and done thing during Sompek. Otherwise I'm gonna be fighting.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yea. I don't go into an STF just to sit out a timer. I'm gonna do things. The only time I would do anything like that is if everyone agress to a 5 and done thing during Sompek. Otherwise I'm gonna be fighting.

    Well at least, Battle at Binary Stars, the Pahvo ground map and Operation Riposte finish early if you've done the objectives early (with few exceptions like the UFP Transport phase in Riposte), there's no do nothing while the timer runs out there.

    EDIT:Funny thing is that AFKers are actually making the TFO last longer then it would if they just off their arses and did something to help the TFO go along.
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    That's the problem with AFKers. They can't be bothered to participate, all they want are the shinies, they just don't want to work for them.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Agreed. Problem is all the ways that we can brainstorm can also be turned into Troll Tools. A "Vote Kick" option would be a proactive means of countering AFKers, but can easily be turned into a means of discrimination against those who "don't measure up" even if they are participating.

    The AFK penalty is spotty at best, and can actually give a false positive in the presence of a HIGH DPS group.

    And the worst part is... some AFKers feel JUSTIFIED because "the game is BUILT around timers, so why bother? Its obviously how the game is supposed to be played. Now give me my shiny!"

    Frankly I'd sooner attract NPCs to an AFKer's location and let them get pounded by said NPCs.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    I've heard of people who have done that. Kited some enemies over to an AFKer. Frankly, I like that idea.

    I've very rarely gotten an AFK when I participate and it's so rare that I just shrug and wait out the timer. My build, while not the best, will hold its own even in Advanced. I doubt I'd ever be good enough for Elite, but not bothered by that. Prefer Normal and play on Normal, but sometimes have to choose Advanced because it pops quicker.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    I'm in the same boat. I can run Advanced, but I'd be a bit over my head in Elite. I play Story on normal, generally do STFs on Advanced.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    Yeah, that's what I do. Stories on Normal. I check the Normal and Advanced for STFs and take the first one that pops up.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    Honestly elite isn't that difficult if you're in good group (as in a group that has semi-decent idea as to what's needed to do the STF), with few exceptions the DPS threshold isn't that high. I've heard of people meeting player bashing you for not doing 10000k DPnS but never actually encountered one myself and my DPS is rather modest really, 30k on a good day.

    That said if you think Elite content isn't for you, that's fine as well the charm of STO is that we all kinds of players and I'd rather have people play the game the way they want as long as it's not hurting the enjoyment of others rather then force people play a certain way.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Mostly re-skinning, reshuffling content, reusing content, rearranging content, requires less developers.
    The only reskinning/reshuffle of content was Peril over Pahvo, one TFO.
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating new ships and items is re-skinning current ones and give them different parameters.
    This is so backwards and nonsensical its hilarious. That isn't how new ships or items are made. These new times use new models and textures, made specifically for them, which makes them literally not reskins by any measure
    totenmet wrote: »
    Creating real new concepts, functionality, gameplay requires more effort. And that has been very sparse.
    Not really. Every new enemy type since like the Tholians has had new gameplay mechanics, and we see new ideas in TFOs like Operation Reposte.

    But still every so called new enemy and tfo feels the same. I go in and kill it. Repeat it for the marks or endeavor and log off.
    That's because every time they make any enemy anything more than floating HP sacks, people whine that it's "too hard" and "annoying" that an enemy can actually do something besides die. Same for any mission where you actually have to do something besides kill helpless rubber ducks or wait out a timer. And Cryptic doesn't dare tell them to learn to play better and/or buy better stuff.

    Yeah - but often those complaining about how "annoying" or "too hard" something is are the type of player who want something for nothing anyway.

    I'm talking the "Round 5 and quit" players in Sompek types
    The players who AFK through Mirror Invasion and whine that the timer made them wait for the reward they got for doing literally nothing.
    The players who bemoaned the changes to CCA, as it longer rewarded them for simply showing up and waiting for everyone else to kill the CE in 20 seconds.
    The players who AFK'ed the recent Pavho TFO event.
    The players who sulk about having to play Featured TFO's because they just expect to be rewarded for simply logging into the game.

    It doesn't apply to anyone here - but there ARE players who want everything for nothing and the game does indulge that attitude to a degree.
    The waiting missions are boring, but it would be ridiculous for anyone to complain about them being "hard." They do, after all, win themselves automatically no matter what happens.

    No, it's usually the tryhards who complain about stuff being "too hard." You know, the kind who DON'T just wait out the timer, but go all out on the optionals...and still fail.
    Like those who insist on futilely stretching a pug Sompek after already getting the reward, even though they're obviously not going to get anywhere (Kamikaze Maru thankfully dies on them fast enough this isn't a problem).
    Who flail at the enemies in the likes of Mirror Invasion for the whole duration and still get the station killed disabled for a few seconds.
    Who ragequit when they miss an optional worth 5 peanuts, that the rest of the team ignored as waste of time.
    Who are allergic to the respawn button, as if it actually affected anything.
    Who whine about new content/events/features being released as the game (somehow) "forces" them to play everything and fill all the reps and whatever against their will.
    etc...

    And sure, there are people who just want free stuff and don't want to play anything at all, but those aren't really "players" are they?

    On the other hand, the complaints about the changes to CCA pretty much just came from DPS types who could no longer curbstomp it in 30 seconds.
    spiritborn wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yea. I don't go into an STF just to sit out a timer. I'm gonna do things. The only time I would do anything like that is if everyone agress to a 5 and done thing during Sompek. Otherwise I'm gonna be fighting.

    Well at least, Battle at Binary Stars, the Pahvo ground map and Operation Riposte finish early if you've done the objectives early (with few exceptions like the UFP Transport phase in Riposte), there's no do nothing while the timer runs out there.

    EDIT:Funny thing is that AFKers are actually making the TFO last longer then it would if they just off their arses and did something to help the TFO go along.
    That's the one positive development they've made to the autowin pattern lately.

    However, the time saving is usually not all that great and may be heavily dependent on the performance of the randos in a pug. For example, it's not possible to solo the optional in Pahvo Dissension, because there are three paths you can't do them all in time alone. So if the rest of the rest of the team sucks you know it's going to go out on the timer anyway. You might save a minute or two saving the escape pods in BaTS, but only if someone else is doing the same on the other side.

    Riposte you actually CAN solo, which is great (except phase 2 which is pure wait). It's perhaps unfortunate, or perhaps interesting emergent gameplay, that they made it so the best way to skip time in the 3rd phase is to intentionally fail the optional by getting the transports killed. :p
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Agreed. Problem is all the ways that we can brainstorm can also be turned into Troll Tools. A "Vote Kick" option would be a proactive means of countering AFKers, but can easily be turned into a means of discrimination against those who "don't measure up" even if they are participating.

    The AFK penalty is spotty at best, and can actually give a false positive in the presence of a HIGH DPS group.
    The AFK penalty Invisible Damage Quota is completely useless at best and a shameless newbie-trap at worst.
    And the worst part is... some AFKers feel JUSTIFIED because "the game is BUILT around timers, so why bother? Its obviously how the game is supposed to be played. Now give me my shiny!"
    That's because the game IS built around timers and actually doing anything at all is usually entirely optional and all too often mostly worthless.
    Frankly I'd sooner attract NPCs to an AFKer's location and let them get pounded by said NPCs.
    Whatever floats your boat. Not like it matters for anything. You still win, they still win, everyone always wins.
  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,196 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Frankly I'd sooner attract NPCs to an AFKer's location and let them get pounded by said NPCs.
    Right, and people who are lagging/rubberbanding can suffer from it also.

  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    For Sompek, I'd make a change.

    I'd change the timed version, you know the one that you should use to do you 5 and die routine. To just a short version, say, 10 waves, that you have to complete in order to get the reward. Which is not hard, 1 or 2 decent players can carry the rest that far.

    As far as the auto-win timers. I'd make this, the less that's accomplished, mainly in the optional area, I'd reduce the reward. That way, the auto-win timer remains, it's just now, AFker's can't get that big shiny reward for doing nothing. One could also tie this to a scoreboard, like on Otha, or Gorn Minefield. The ones that do the most, get rewarded the most. Those that do nothing get next to nothing, say, like 10 marks.

    This was part of the reason I left WoW. They started giving raid level gear, to those that were never raiding to begin with. Which always struck the nerve with me, "Why do you need raid level gear, if you aren't raiding?" The answer is, you don't need it.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    trennan wrote: »
    For Sompek, I'd make a change.

    I'd change the timed version, you know the one that you should use to do you 5 and die routine. To just a short version, say, 10 waves, that you have to complete in order to get the reward. Which is not hard, 1 or 2 decent players can carry the rest that far.
    And presuming the infinite version still gives the reward at 5, nobody would then run the "short" version because it would in fact be longer.
    As far as the auto-win timers. I'd make this, the less that's accomplished, mainly in the optional area, I'd reduce the reward. That way, the auto-win timer remains, it's just now, AFker's can't get that big shiny reward for doing nothing. One could also tie this to a scoreboard, like on Otha, or Gorn Minefield. The ones that do the most, get rewarded the most. Those that do nothing get next to nothing, say, like 10 marks.
    How do you reduce the reward for an event that only gives one token per run?
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    Don't give the token to the AFKers
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    Don't give the token to the AFKers
    And how do you presume the game knows who are "the AFKers?"
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Well, I know in the Dyson, Undine, and Badlands BZs (I'm deliberately leaving out the Tzen'kethi BZ), you get rewards for different areas captured from Tier I to IV. That being said, there is some 'logic' built in to determine that, so apply that to AFKers.

    Tier I gets no Coupons or Vouchers and only minimal XP/Expertise. The Criteria for the other Tiers would be all the same and you are awarded full Rewards.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    warpangel wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    For Sompek, I'd make a change.

    I'd change the timed version, you know the one that you should use to do you 5 and die routine. To just a short version, say, 10 waves, that you have to complete in order to get the reward. Which is not hard, 1 or 2 decent players can carry the rest that far.
    And presuming the infinite version still gives the reward at 5, nobody would then run the "short" version because it would in fact be longer.
    As far as the auto-win timers. I'd make this, the less that's accomplished, mainly in the optional area, I'd reduce the reward. That way, the auto-win timer remains, it's just now, AFker's can't get that big shiny reward for doing nothing. One could also tie this to a scoreboard, like on Otha, or Gorn Minefield. The ones that do the most, get rewarded the most. Those that do nothing get next to nothing, say, like 10 marks.
    How do you reduce the reward for an event that only gives one token per run?

    Quite simple really. The unlimited version doesn't reward a token. I'm not talking event tokens here. Events, are events. so can't bother that token.

    They could use the point system for the mark reward though. Which tracks damage and healing done. Not only would this push the AFKers, either out of TFO's entirely, or to actually participate. It would encourage others to work on improving their game. Because now, the more you do, the more you get rewarded.

    If people want to AFK for rewards. Then I encourage them to stick to facebook games, and leave all other games alone.

    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Well, I know in the Dyson, Undine, and Badlands BZs (I'm deliberately leaving out the Tzen'kethi BZ), you get rewards for different areas captured from Tier I to IV. That being said, there is some 'logic' built in to determine that, so apply that to AFKers.

    Tier I gets no Coupons or Vouchers and only minimal XP/Expertise. The Criteria for the other Tiers would be all the same and you are awarded full Rewards.
    IOW, the Invisible Damage Quota that the game pretends is an "AFK penalty." You do know that's already in the game right?

    It's completely useless, unless your goal was to slap the occasional clueless newbie or laggy player in the face with it.
    trennan wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    For Sompek, I'd make a change.

    I'd change the timed version, you know the one that you should use to do you 5 and die routine. To just a short version, say, 10 waves, that you have to complete in order to get the reward. Which is not hard, 1 or 2 decent players can carry the rest that far.
    And presuming the infinite version still gives the reward at 5, nobody would then run the "short" version because it would in fact be longer.
    As far as the auto-win timers. I'd make this, the less that's accomplished, mainly in the optional area, I'd reduce the reward. That way, the auto-win timer remains, it's just now, AFker's can't get that big shiny reward for doing nothing. One could also tie this to a scoreboard, like on Otha, or Gorn Minefield. The ones that do the most, get rewarded the most. Those that do nothing get next to nothing, say, like 10 marks.
    How do you reduce the reward for an event that only gives one token per run?

    Quite simple really. The unlimited version doesn't reward a token. I'm not talking event tokens here. Events, are events. so can't bother than token.

    They could use the point system for the mark reward though. Which tracks damage and healing done. Not only would this push the AFKers, either out of TFO's entirely, or to actually participate. It would encourage others to work on improving their game. Because now, the more you do, the more you get rewarded.
    Yes, but see event tokens are what people are after in those events. I for one wouldn't give a rodent's posterior about any marks.

    I do know that raising the threshold on the Invisible Damage Quota would just mean more new/casual players getting hit with a bogus penalty and they're the ones that would be "pushed out."



    The problem with this line of thinking is that you want the objectives of the game to be optional for you so you can still guaranteed win every time, but mandatory for others so they can't ignore them. That's very obviously impossible.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    There is an AFK Penalty in the game already??!! ;)

    Not trying to slap anyone with anything or want objectives to be optional to me. Since people are so concerned about AFKers, I was proposing a method that perhaps is a bit more comprehensive in determining who tried to pull their weight and who were like those Lazy Romulans©®™ in the Staging Area.

    If you don't think it is at all feasible then forget it. When I enter a TFO, I do my utmost to participate and meet objectives. I don't notice AFKers and hardly care.

    https://youtu.be/xLnTWxpTQt4
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    warpangel wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    Well, I know in the Dyson, Undine, and Badlands BZs (I'm deliberately leaving out the Tzen'kethi BZ), you get rewards for different areas captured from Tier I to IV. That being said, there is some 'logic' built in to determine that, so apply that to AFKers.

    Tier I gets no Coupons or Vouchers and only minimal XP/Expertise. The Criteria for the other Tiers would be all the same and you are awarded full Rewards.
    IOW, the Invisible Damage Quota that the game pretends is an "AFK penalty." You do know that's already in the game right?

    It's completely useless, unless your goal was to slap the occasional clueless newbie or laggy player in the face with it.
    trennan wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    For Sompek, I'd make a change.

    I'd change the timed version, you know the one that you should use to do you 5 and die routine. To just a short version, say, 10 waves, that you have to complete in order to get the reward. Which is not hard, 1 or 2 decent players can carry the rest that far.
    And presuming the infinite version still gives the reward at 5, nobody would then run the "short" version because it would in fact be longer.
    As far as the auto-win timers. I'd make this, the less that's accomplished, mainly in the optional area, I'd reduce the reward. That way, the auto-win timer remains, it's just now, AFker's can't get that big shiny reward for doing nothing. One could also tie this to a scoreboard, like on Otha, or Gorn Minefield. The ones that do the most, get rewarded the most. Those that do nothing get next to nothing, say, like 10 marks.
    How do you reduce the reward for an event that only gives one token per run?

    Quite simple really. The unlimited version doesn't reward a token. I'm not talking event tokens here. Events, are events. so can't bother than token.

    They could use the point system for the mark reward though. Which tracks damage and healing done. Not only would this push the AFKers, either out of TFO's entirely, or to actually participate. It would encourage others to work on improving their game. Because now, the more you do, the more you get rewarded.
    Yes, but see event tokens are what people are after in those events. I for one wouldn't give a rodent's posterior about any marks.

    I do know that raising the threshold on the Invisible Damage Quota would just mean more new/casual players getting hit with a bogus penalty and they're the ones that would be "pushed out."



    The problem with this line of thinking is that you want the objectives of the game to be optional for you so you can still guaranteed win every time, but mandatory for others so they can't ignore them. That's very obviously impossible.

    What penalty are they being hit here with. It removes the horrid AFK penalty, which really, you only need to do like 1% of the over all damage to avoid, which is basically just pressing spacebar, or just firing your weapon during ground.

    For those like this, in a scoring system like I mentioned. They're still getting a reward, just a bare minimum one. Even new players are getting a reward here. Which, with score board like Otha, you can see who scored the highest and what they got. Granted, Otha's just shows who got the highest score, before it repsawns and starts over.

    With this system, the AFKers, can still AFK. They're just not going to get the same reward for those doing stuff. This also helps new players, and those seeking to improve their build, see what their work is producing, as they get more and more rewards.

    As for the optional parts. I play to try and achieve those. in some maps, I'll attempt to direct traffic via chat to achieve them. In others, like the last Featured TFO, I knew with in the first couple plays, and how things were going. That there was about a 25% chance the transport actually surviving for me to tow it back to the fleet. But I was still attempting it. Just like I attempted to save all the troop transports. Though out of all my times playing, there was one time where the group didn't make it to the 3rd satellite and it got destroyed. Until that one time, I didn't even know this could happen. So there are actually 3 optional objectives in that one.

    Save all the satellites.(for future reference if someone didn't know about it.)
    Defend all the troop transports.
    Save all the klingon transports.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,467 Arc User
    Trying to be optimistic and not really complaining. I'm glad that STO has survived this long and just to be clear I'm speaking for myself (hope others might feel the same) but where is the CONTENT or real stories lately?

    I'm assume this is the new business model of STO and opting for selling the latest shinnies that come from boxes/packs/ships and GREAT money maker for PWE but have we forgotten about content? Where is the beef lately? ViL seems so long gone and yes we do get sporadically get weekend TFOs that only serve to add grind to the MMO.

    The AoD expansion was a mere 3 episodes long and the remastered upcoming Rise of Discovery has 2 new episodes or virtually no new content but a recycled PvEs from the past called a reputation grind.

    If you want concrete answers I recommend a youtube video called:

    Death of a Game Star Trek Online

    Though I may not entirely agree with the video creator's point of view, but he does make a very convincing case.
    It appears that new content as been put aside for the benefit of what makes more profits for PWE. I don't blame them since players support it and it is a real capitalistic business model. I just missed when this MMO was much more balanced and used to offer real content as in LoR or heck yeah even Delta Rising was so much better in content of what we see these past few years.​​

    To be honest STO was never balanced per se, and they had huge obstacles to contend with since Beta - again refer to said video for reference. The problem with STO is that as an MMO it has failed to capture and bring new players - basically it is merely on life support via the existing playerbase. It is also plagued with very very bad writing with no fluid story progression. One FE they write about Silly Tilly and then quickly jump to a Lorka Arc. There is no sense of direction and coherent story telling. I doubt we will ever get another huge expansion ala Romulus, AoY, and Delta / Iconian arc - Those days ended and the nail to the proverbial coffin is when they introduced TRIBBLE into the mix. A show with very mixed reviews among Trekkies and Lore seekers alike.

    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,467 Arc User
    LOL Tribble, darn censor TRIBBLE, it suppose to be Star Trek Discovery
    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
This discussion has been closed.