Its not just the Invisi-Torp, which still crops up every once in a while. The Fail Conditions were just too easy for Trolls to exploit. And at the time everyone was still struggling to adapt to the new power creep because what once was just fine in the Old Elite was now not good enough for the new Advanced.
How many ways could a Troll ruin a fail condition Infected?
Blow a generator on the opposite side, forcing the team to scramble to cover two sides at once
Tractor Repulse a Nanite Sphere into the Transformer
Gravity Well on the Transformer, drawing in Nanite Spheres
At the time even the DPS crew were adapting to the new power levels and how much HP the NPCs had. While most cases of failure were legit, there were also cases of Trolls intentionally failing people for teh lulz, locking them out of that particular STF because win or lose, it STILL went into the 30 minute cooldown.
While Fail conditions are fine, you also have to consider how easy it is for people to turn them against other players for their own amusement. One ability and a need to amuse yourself shouldn't be used to punish 4 other players just for a laugh.
Always with the ISA...<yawn>
It had, and still has, a silly nonsensical objective. That's not an argument against required objectives, it's only an argument against ISA.
And even still, regardless of "how many ways"...very few trolls actually did fail it on purpose.
A simple mechanic that determines the total levels of the build, which cant be changed once queued or inside the TFO (which requires the loadout bug to be fixed), would solve this. Players would be matched based on their gear and not on their level.
The problem is, of course, one of fundamental game balance. The devs will not address this, so you have to. In other words, select a good build, upgrade your gear, do ridiculously high damage and break all credibility of the TFO as an actual military action as opposed to a shooting gallery. It is sad and a waste of entertainment potential, but that's how they want you to play, apparently.
Or: Don't care for your damage, do auxiliary jobs instead: Transporting particles, TBR'ing Borg spheres away, intercepting missiles, that kind of stuff.
I feel they do address it though. This is very much a problem in Advanced TFOs, not all TFOs. And back when they first introduced the difficulty tiers (which for a long time even had mission-ending fail conditions), they made it clear that Advanced TFOs were explicitly not for everyone.
It was an attempt to address the imbalance caused by having everyone in the same queue. Players without a DPS focus were annoyed at getting paired with DPS-focused players, and vice versa. So they made most queues have at least two levels.
The problem is that the Advanced TFOs reward higher. It's supposed to give incentives for players to build a better ship, likely spending money in the process so also generates revenue for the game. But far too many players jump into them unprepared for the easiest access to marks and elite marks.
This reply usually comes from people who are not aware of the total range of optimization and insane DPS that the game allows for. Is that the case for you, or are you just being nostalgic?
High end DPS in STO is BROKEN. It utterly, totally, fully destroys the combat mechanics. Any advanced content is made into a shooting gallery by the high end DPS that SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE, but is.
It's neither. I'm fully aware how high DPS can go. As for the nostalgia, the only thing I miss is fail objectives that made getting it right a priority.
And no, nothing is broken. All MMOs have min-maxers of some type. Using the combat mechanics to the best of your ability doesn't break those same combat mechanics. This is very much a problem of undergeared/unprepared players playing content designed for more advanced builds.
And no, nothing is broken. All MMOs have min-maxers of some type. Using the combat mechanics to the best of your ability doesn't break those same combat mechanics. This is very much a problem of undergeared/unprepared players playing content designed for more advanced builds.
This is true. Also some games have a disparity in PvE gear vs PvP gear. You could have amazing PvE gear, but it just sucks in PvP. Had a bad experience in WoW years ago because of that... and Death Knights. *shudder*
Which is why I never do PvP, aside from the fact that I don't play games to fight other players. I play games to have fun. And I know that my kind of fun might not be someone else's kind of fun, but that still doesn't make my kind of fun wrong, it's just different.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Well, defunning is certainly better than defenestrating.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
A simple mechanic that determines the total levels of the build, which cant be changed once queued or inside the TFO (which requires the loadout bug to be fixed), would solve this. Players would be matched based on their gear and not on their level.
This penalizes player who want to do challenge runs or budget runs. Plenty of people do budget runs with mission reward gear and pull down decent enough numbers to run ADV queues. The reality is the gear only counts for a diminishing portion of total dps very quickly.
In addition to weapons, traits, boffs, and skill trees and how well you've created a synergy between them will count for a lot more.
Finally, piloting matters and when/how you click your clickies matters, not to mention basics like positioning. Spamming space bar without regard for cooldowns, power levels, and such will not produce the desired results.
Trying to cite "gear score" also opens up the potential for discrimination as well. Especially with people who have alts and aren't investing as heavily in their alts as they do their main. I know for a fact that my KDF isn't as well geared as my Fed main. However she can still hold her own just fine. However my Fed main is geared with mk XV everything, all but two consoles gold plated, gold plated Kobali set...
Same player, same knowledge, differing "gear scores". So its not really accurate to judge skill by gear.
Trying to cite "gear score" also opens up the potential for discrimination as well. Especially with people who have alts and aren't investing as heavily in their alts as they do their main. I know for a fact that my KDF isn't as well geared as my Fed main. However she can still hold her own just fine. However my Fed main is geared with mk XV everything, all but two consoles gold plated, gold plated Kobali set...
Same player, same knowledge, differing "gear scores". So its not really accurate to judge skill by gear.
Hell, my FED main has Gold 15 everything (except some fleet tactical consoles that are UV 15 instead), and half the time it still feels like I'm flicking peas at the enemy.
Might I suggest you post the basics of your current build here? If you're running with low level weapons (green MK XII's etc) that might be your problem. If you're running with gold MK XV's however then things are likely a wee bit more complicated.
I'm mostly running with a mix of epic\VR MK XIV's and struggle to do much damage, especially when compared to the DPSers. I don't pay much attention to combos and the domino effect of stuff however as that's far less player friendly and less comprehensible. Where info is provided it's not always consistent or logical either.
1) Join Random TFO
2) Appear in CSA
3) Watch super damage builds get every kill award no matter what damage I do
4) Get an AFK penalty
Well that was de-funed. One minute of trying to land a punch. Twenty minutes to contemplate my crimes on the tree of woe. Nothing new here. But still irritating since that half hour was the only time I will have today to get in some STO time. Ah well nothing new here. :P
A simple mechanic that determines the total levels of the build, which cant be changed once queued or inside the TFO (which requires the loadout bug to be fixed), would solve this. Players would be matched based on their gear and not on their level.
Umm...no, no it will not. DPS isn't just about the gear. I have seen people with epic max gear do like 1/3 of a build I did using COMMON mark XII gear. People think gear is the end all be all...it's not. Player skill does matter.
Also I can do any advanced content with common mark XII gear and not only NOT AFK, but also feel like I am actually doing something. I agree with Sea for play normal until you get better...but not better gear. Play normal until you get better at the game. Skill matters.
In Neverwinter, which does use gear scores to determine dungeon eligibility, all it really does is measure quality of gear, and not the important part which is how well the gear improves your build.
[...]In Neverwinter, which does use gear scores to determine dungeon eligibility, all it really does is measure quality of gear, and not the important part which is how well the gear improves your build.
Having upgraded stuff to Mk XV Epic clearly states that the player believes this to be worth the effort and resources. That's a good approximation of "quality".
But the main problem with gear scores is that it is hard to balance the content in such a way that it doesn't segment the playerbase too much or too little. Gear scores aren't the answer. Better game systems design is.
Are you speaking of the mythical "perfect balance" where all builds are equally fun and effective? 'Cause yeah, don't think anyone has ever seen a game with meaningful character customization where every build is actually equal. Heck Mortal Kombat 11 has character customization, hasn't been released yet, and people are already talking about how some options are better than others! Does this mean NetherRealm suck and are doing a bad job? no. It's that options that are individually equal but different, by virtue of being different, don't combine with each other the same way, and some combinations work better than others.
The same is true of ship builds in STO. In fact there are so many possibilities that you need to sort them into vague categories just to be able to make meaningful comparisons.
Same here. It's why I don't try to copy DPS builds and just go with what I have. I can still do enough damage to not be slapped with an AFK. I'm pretty sure I can do so in advanced, but I play for funsies, so I almost always play normal.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Gear makes a vast difference, take a crappy player, have them copy the build of one of the top DPS players and their DPS numbers will increase dramatically, but only in comparison to what they themselves, or an equally crappy player was doing..
However, that same crappy player, geared up with MK XV Epic everything and exactly duplicating the build of the numero uno DPSer in the game is still going to be outperformed by a good player running an average mix of the best of drop/mission/rep gear and a really good players is going put both of those people to shame while running with relative junk equipped.
Gear quality only makes a vast difference when comparing the performance of a player of a certain skill level with themselves, or another player of the same general skill level.
And no, the fact that a player spent the time and effort needed to get good quality gear does not mean that they have spent any time at all trying to improve their game skills. It is a proven fact that in any game where real money can be spent to get really good gear in game, there are as many, or even more, players with no game skill at all running around in top end gear as actual good players. It's a mind set of "I don't need to get gud, I got money and I'll just buy my way to gud"
When I see a ship in a TFO with 30 - 40 buff icons under the Avatar, I know that person is gud and knows how to 'game' the system.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
1) Join Random TFO
2) Appear in CSA
3) Watch super damage builds get every kill award no matter what damage I do
4) Get an AFK penalty
Well that was de-funed. One minute of trying to land a punch. Twenty minutes to contemplate my crimes on the tree of woe. Nothing new here. But still irritating since that half hour was the only time I will have today to get in some STO time. Ah well nothing new here. :P
I'm the OP.
I pretty much knew how most of the comments would go, and they did. Though I appreciate they were more poliet than I expected. There is great advice here and things I am aware of.
But here is the thing. I'm a good player with pretty decent builds. I have an old school bronze league toon. So while I appreciate the often good advice shared here it misses the point.
I'm joining a Random TFO so I don't know where and with who I'll be teamed. My builds are more than sufficient for any normal random match.
What happened here was I de-lucked out and got a team where at least three of the players wiped out two of the cube groups in seconds. Perhaps my mistake was taking a big slow carrier but that's not normally a problem - usually I take the role of tank and optional guard, works out ok 99% of the time.
But there was literally nothing I could have done in this case short of always just using a hothouse escort build. Which I have but it seems weird to me I need to always be that person that ruins the curve for everyone else.
Anyway normally I wouldn't complain, just suck it up. But I guess my other mistake was not doing the T6 Riposte mission first and I had to leave for the rest of the day. I'll live. But it was still irritating.
To be fair to Cryptic I'm not sure what the best answer should be short of tracking DPS trend history to a ranking number and use that asa match factor. But we are in a time when Cryptic seems to be moving into a caretaker mode and doing away with anything that consumes more storage space.
Offering to help make your experience better. Are there some unhelpful posts in there? Sure. But there are helpful ones too.
Everyone makes of the game what they want. Could I learn to do better? Absolutely.
I don't mind not having the uber-optimized, enemy-melting build. I kill things, I do enough damage to stay with the others most of the time. When I'm in a TFO with uber-killers I just do my best and manage to not get AFK'd. Even in CCA.
Like azrael, my builds are all off-meta. I use what I have already most of the time. And they still do their jobs.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Comments
It had, and still has, a silly nonsensical objective. That's not an argument against required objectives, it's only an argument against ISA.
And even still, regardless of "how many ways"...very few trolls actually did fail it on purpose.
It's neither. I'm fully aware how high DPS can go. As for the nostalgia, the only thing I miss is fail objectives that made getting it right a priority.
And no, nothing is broken. All MMOs have min-maxers of some type. Using the combat mechanics to the best of your ability doesn't break those same combat mechanics. This is very much a problem of undergeared/unprepared players playing content designed for more advanced builds.
I didn't play many STFs at that time, especially PUG runs. And its the best, most well known example STF.
This is true. Also some games have a disparity in PvE gear vs PvP gear. You could have amazing PvE gear, but it just sucks in PvP. Had a bad experience in WoW years ago because of that... and Death Knights. *shudder*
But this is a factor in EVERY game that has gear.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
This penalizes player who want to do challenge runs or budget runs. Plenty of people do budget runs with mission reward gear and pull down decent enough numbers to run ADV queues. The reality is the gear only counts for a diminishing portion of total dps very quickly.
In addition to weapons, traits, boffs, and skill trees and how well you've created a synergy between them will count for a lot more.
Finally, piloting matters and when/how you click your clickies matters, not to mention basics like positioning. Spamming space bar without regard for cooldowns, power levels, and such will not produce the desired results.
Same player, same knowledge, differing "gear scores". So its not really accurate to judge skill by gear.
Hell, my FED main has Gold 15 everything (except some fleet tactical consoles that are UV 15 instead), and half the time it still feels like I'm flicking peas at the enemy.
I'm mostly running with a mix of epic\VR MK XIV's and struggle to do much damage, especially when compared to the DPSers. I don't pay much attention to combos and the domino effect of stuff however as that's far less player friendly and less comprehensible. Where info is provided it's not always consistent or logical either.
My character Tsin'xing
The same is true of ship builds in STO. In fact there are so many possibilities that you need to sort them into vague categories just to be able to make meaningful comparisons.
My character Tsin'xing
Gear makes a vast difference, take a crappy player, have them copy the build of one of the top DPS players and their DPS numbers will increase dramatically, but only in comparison to what they themselves, or an equally crappy player was doing..
However, that same crappy player, geared up with MK XV Epic everything and exactly duplicating the build of the numero uno DPSer in the game is still going to be outperformed by a good player running an average mix of the best of drop/mission/rep gear and a really good players is going put both of those people to shame while running with relative junk equipped.
Gear quality only makes a vast difference when comparing the performance of a player of a certain skill level with themselves, or another player of the same general skill level.
And no, the fact that a player spent the time and effort needed to get good quality gear does not mean that they have spent any time at all trying to improve their game skills. It is a proven fact that in any game where real money can be spent to get really good gear in game, there are as many, or even more, players with no game skill at all running around in top end gear as actual good players. It's a mind set of "I don't need to get gud, I got money and I'll just buy my way to gud"
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I pretty much knew how most of the comments would go, and they did. Though I appreciate they were more poliet than I expected. There is great advice here and things I am aware of.
But here is the thing. I'm a good player with pretty decent builds. I have an old school bronze league toon. So while I appreciate the often good advice shared here it misses the point.
I'm joining a Random TFO so I don't know where and with who I'll be teamed. My builds are more than sufficient for any normal random match.
What happened here was I de-lucked out and got a team where at least three of the players wiped out two of the cube groups in seconds. Perhaps my mistake was taking a big slow carrier but that's not normally a problem - usually I take the role of tank and optional guard, works out ok 99% of the time.
But there was literally nothing I could have done in this case short of always just using a hothouse escort build. Which I have but it seems weird to me I need to always be that person that ruins the curve for everyone else.
Anyway normally I wouldn't complain, just suck it up. But I guess my other mistake was not doing the T6 Riposte mission first and I had to leave for the rest of the day. I'll live. But it was still irritating.
To be fair to Cryptic I'm not sure what the best answer should be short of tracking DPS trend history to a ranking number and use that asa match factor. But we are in a time when Cryptic seems to be moving into a caretaker mode and doing away with anything that consumes more storage space.
Offering to help make your experience better. Are there some unhelpful posts in there? Sure. But there are helpful ones too.
Everyone makes of the game what they want. Could I learn to do better? Absolutely.
I don't mind not having the uber-optimized, enemy-melting build. I kill things, I do enough damage to stay with the others most of the time. When I'm in a TFO with uber-killers I just do my best and manage to not get AFK'd. Even in CCA.
Like azrael, my builds are all off-meta. I use what I have already most of the time. And they still do their jobs.